Discussion about Self-Insert Characters in Fiction (Mary Sue/Gary Stu)

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So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue. Usually what follows is a list of great female characters to prove this point.

So my question is... why is it not okay for female characters to not work? For many, Rey doesn't work and then she's seen as some affront to culture. While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny. Just as a reference, the last two The Rock moviea, Skyscraper and Rampage.

I've already plenty of people being against Ms Marvel movie next year and how she's be ruining comics for a while. Why is it not okay for her to 'ruin comics' just like plenty of male characters 'ruined comics'

(As an aside, I dont think Luke as much of a character. He's had little training and little personality. He's a cardboard cutout running around on adventures. He's ruined Star Wars before Daisy Ridley was even born.)

Cause there are a million male protagonists, not a million female ones. Plus this is Star Wars. Skyscraper is a shit movie, who cares about the protagonist? Rampage was a shit movie, and my criticisms focus on the twisting from the game to the film.

I am unaware of how Ms. Marvel is ruining comics, unless it is referring to the Muslim Ms Marvel that replaced Carol Danvers. The movie will be about Carol though.

That said, Luke didn't have little training! He spends the entire trilogy training! Rey actually made me appreciate how much effort Lucas put into justifying Luke. In the beginning he constantly drops seemingly throw-away lines explaining he has experience flying and shooting, that he has been training and hoping to join the military. Then he bumbles through the Death Star, doing little actual fighting, then leaves. During the debriefing he mentions that shooting the Death Star port is not as crazy as it sounds, and even then has the Force helping him hit it.

The second movie is 90% Luke training with Yoda, all to end in a fight with Darth Vader where he gets his ass kicked! Then he goes back for more training, and overall lacks his youthful ignorance.

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Saelune:

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

twistedmic:

Saelune:

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

He also claimed he was a good shot. It set up that he could make that Death Star shot, even without the Force.

But then Rey was actually independent, had to fight people off all the time, was worldly and not the bright eyed optimist Luke. She began far more competent. But she did receive less training in the first movie. Id say the same level for the second, because Luke didnt get much training.

Anyway, I was specifically asking about the way high expectations on female characters and how we arent really comfortable with them sucking. Picking such a... polarising character might a bad example that distracts from my question

It's misongy

Saelune:
(Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Care to refresh my memory?

Jar Jar only stumbled through the battle, releasing a few energy orbs that mildly inconvenienced the droids, he was subsequently captured and held at gun point until the droids shut down due to Anakin blowing up the control ship.

Jar Jar didn't win anything, he merely survived through stupidity.

Meh, I had far more pressing problems with those movies than Rey, so she sort of went under the radar for me. I didn't mind her so much.

trunkage:

Anyway, I was specifically asking about the way high expectations on female characters and how we arent really comfortable with them sucking. Picking such a... polarising character might a bad example that distracts from my question

This topic is very clearly written to be about Star Wars, not about women in media overall. The topic and your OP are all Star Wars centric.

twistedmic:

Saelune:

Really they could have atleast have a scene where that guy who was caring for Rey said something like 'You need to stop stealing my vehicles and doing all those crazy tricks, you're gonna get yourself killed!' It would atleast have been something. As dumb as a lot of what Anakin did in Episode 1 was, they do start him off already a capable pod racer to justify his abilities to some degree. (Though it also had Jar Jar win a massive battle out of sheer stupidity... bleh)

Rey did at least mention that she was a pilot/knew how to fly before she got into the Falcon's cockpit. She specifically tells Finn that she's a pilot. Granted, she never left the planet and (probably) hadn't flown the Falcon ("That ship hasn't flown in years." to quote Rey). And Luke revealed that he was a pilot himself in a similar fashion, quoting him from memory-"I'm not such a bad pilot myself."

They really just should not have made her do a freaking backflip in the Millenium Falcon. Admittedly that is more a flaw of modern action movies in general, but still, Star Wars shouldn't be like other mainstream action films.

Rey gets called a Mary Sue because she is a female character who has a pre-existing skill-set, and as such is held to standards neither Luke nor Anakin ever were even though their feats are far more ridiculous with far less training. Anakin Skywalker was so amazingly gifted at age 10 that he could WIN a race in a sport most humanoids aren't actually capable of participating in just because he is so naturally gifted with the force. Luke flew the equivalent of a crop duster a few times and that was enough to let him blow up the death star.

However none of these characters are actually Mary Sues because that's not about power. A Mary Sue character is always right, never makes personal mistakes and only ever fails because other people are evil rather than because they made mistakes, and this is not true for any of the three. Rey choses to delude herself into thinking her parents were Jedi and lives as a scavenger hermit for years rather than getting on with her life, and is so convinced she is the next Luke Skywalker and that Kylo is the next Darth Vader that she allows herself to be captured by the first order. Truth is, most forums on the internet are mainly populated by young men who will gladly accept male characters who are instant badasses with a pre-existing reportoar of outlandish skills, yet will demand a three hour training arc from a female character introduced with a fraction of the same skills and still complain even if they get one

If it takes you seven movies to realize that most of the characters in Star Wars are broadly drawn archetypes who only work in the context of a story that's more about equally broad themes than realistic character developments then you're either a child or simply not very smart.

Make no mistake, in a story like Song of Ice and Fire or most iterations of Star Trek a character like Rey would stick out like a sore thumb as a Mary Sue. Because these properties attempt to have believable characters that have believable relationships and develop believably. Star Wars doesn't. Hell, half the reason people liked to complain that the characters in the prequels have "no personality" is that they aren't immediately recognizable archetypes the way the ones from the Original Trilogy were.

Sure, a lot about Rey is awfully convenient in the sense that a lot of what, in a better paced series, she'd have to learn are things she already know before the movie even starts but part of me thinks that modern audiences just wouldn't appreciate something that starts as slow as Episode 4. Which is a shame, really, I strongly think that the single most important sequence to Star Wars as a franchise is that of Luke simply living his life with his uncle and aunt on Tatooine. Because that's where the movie really reels you in. Pulls you into the world it created. Just following some of the people living their normal life there. Farming moisture, drinking blue milk, buying robots from a tribe of nomadic aliens to help them with their work... it's where the universe of Star Wars becomes more than just a backdrop.

trunkage:
So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue.

This is probably little more than when a term exists, someone will use it.

Rey is in essence no different from a million heroes and heroines in SF&F literature, from Luke Skywalker in earlier films to the typical peasant who turns out to be the long-lost king, greatest warrior / wizard of the generation in a fantasy novel. If she's a Mary Sue, so are all of them, too.

It is probably less well handled, though. The previous trilogies imply lots of training goes on in intervening time frames - such as Luke on Degobah, or Anakin trained as a child. The new one can't be arsed and just cuts to the chase with force powers just appearing. But I guess that's potentially what happens when you move from a creator who has a unified vision of their universe to a locust like JJ Abrams who just grabs existing IP to make superficial, flashy adaptations before moving on.

Because women are put under higher scrutiny than men in movies (or other entertaiment media). Whereas a man can just walk past the bouncher and into the club no problem, women need to first show their ID and answer some questions to prove they have a legitimate reason to be there. Hence the usual excuse 'I'm okay with female characters, but there needs to be a reason she's a woman'. This also ofcourse applies to gay characters.

Also, Rey isn't a Mary Sue, since that would imply she's idealized and flawless, which she clearly isn't. Just because she can competently fly a spaceship, is a mechanic, and can handle herself in a fight, doesn't stop her from at first not wanting to help BB-8, being initially tempted to sell him off, lying to herself about her parents, and running away when confronted with her "destiny". Point being, she has fears and weaknesses. That doesn't mean she's a great character, or that Daisy Ridley doesn't play her a tad obnoxiously, but that doesn't translate into her being a Mary Sue.

trunkage:
While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny.

Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie. Rey wasn't the highest quality of writing, but didn't have any of the jarring "why the fuck would they do that?" moments. Likewise, I was kind of appreciating the engineer character from the latest one until she pulled that batshit crazy stunt at the end...

The difference between Rey and Luke is generational - 70s movies tended not to have the same expectations on character development. He was a 2D stereotype character, but that was fine because the film was about the story not the people.

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

And in a wider sense, I think we come back to the difference between movies about storylines and movies about people. James Bond is a walking stereotype, but that works because Bond films are about the story and not him as a person. There is (or should be) no attempt to explain him or develop him, because that's not the point. I think the more modern Star Wars films attempt to make people care more about the characters, and as a result open themselves to more scrutiny when said characters are poor.

Catnip1024:

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a bit here (if that's the correct term), even though I dislike the prequel trilogy I will say that a lot of the issues with Anakin, his piloting and mechanical skills mostly, would have been less absurd had he been older. If the movies had started with Anakin already a teen (somewhere between 14-17, I'd say) it would have made a bit more sense for him to be a skilled pilot and mechanic (as long as they didn't have him build a protocol droid with limited fine-motor control and immobile fingers to help his mother on the slave-farm).

twistedmic:

Catnip1024:

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a bit here (if that's the correct term), even though I dislike the prequel trilogy I will say that a lot of the issues with Anakin, his piloting and mechanical skills mostly, would have been less absurd had he been older. If the movies had started with Anakin already a teen (somewhere between 14-17, I'd say) it would have made a bit more sense for him to be a skilled pilot and mechanic (as long as they didn't have him build a protocol droid with limited fine-motor control and immobile fingers to help his mother on the slave-farm).

In fairness to C3PO, the original actor could barely move his fingers in that hellish suit, so for continuity sake they were a little stuck there.

undeadsuitor:
It's misogyny

Nailed it. Really, I don't think much more explanation beyond that we put much higher expectation on female characters for some reason. The old adage of "When a man does something he represents only himself, when a woman does something she represents all women everywhere" is sadly very true for media in general.

Gethsemani:

undeadsuitor:
It's misogyny

Nailed it. Really, I don't think much more explanation beyond that we put much higher expectation on female characters for some reason. The old adage of "When a man does something he represents only himself, when a woman does something she represents all women everywhere" is sadly very true for media in general.

Well, I think there is a bit more context here. Yes, there are too many who just want to point at every woman character's flaws as proof that female characters are bad, but and again, this does link to misogyny, but male characters are just way more abundant that, well, who cares? Ofcourse there are bad male characters, but there are also a ton of good male characters. Far fewer female though.

Though the solution is to increase the number of important female characters so eventually we have a ton of good and bad female characters as examples.

I hate the new Star Wars movies, I think Rey is poorly written, but the diversity (atleast in humans) is the one good part of these new films. I think Anakin in the prequels suffers similar issues to Rey now.

Saelune:

I hate the new Star Wars movies, I think Rey is poorly written, but the diversity (atleast in humans) is the one good part of these new films. I think Anakin in the prequels suffers similar issues to Rey now.

Don't get me wrong, one can absolutely dislike Rey as a character without being a misogynist. The virulent hate against her in some quarters though? The same quarters that also tend to rage against Finn's skin color, Rose's perceived lack of beauty and the "cucking" of Poe. The same quarters that made a The Last Jedi "re-cut" that cut out all the women and turned Poe's arc into a standard hero story. Yeah, there's no coincidence there.

Agema:

Rey is in essence no different from a million heroes and heroines in SF&F literature, from Luke Skywalker in earlier films to the typical peasant who turns out to be the long-lost king, greatest warrior / wizard of the generation in a fantasy novel. If she's a Mary Sue, so are all of them, too.

Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution. As Saelune noted earlier, the original trilogy actually spent a lot of time building up Luke, ranging from repeated references to his piloting skills, to spending most of the Empire Strikes Back training only to find that his skills still pale in comparison to Vader.

Before the Force Awakens, the poster child for Mary Sues in Star Wars was Revan, a charismatic Jedi and a veritable genius in warfare, whose talent in the Force was only matched by his raw power. When he had to relearn how to use the Force after his mind was shattered, we famously got the comment that the speed at which he picked it up was unprecedented and that he had "done in weeks what many cannot do in years" under constant tutelage. Rey manages to go from unaware of her abilities to upwards of competent with them in a matter of minutes on her own. Similarly, she manages an Aerial Canyon Chase, which the script then explicitly acknowledges as being outside her known skill set ("How did you do that?" "I don't know!").

Put a different way, her overall ability is such that fan speculation includes the idea that she's in fact the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker and is so quick on instinctive uptake because she's tapping into memories from her past life (Similar to the justification used to explain how Aang was such a quick bending study in Avatar: the Last Airbender). When ideas like that start picking up steam, it's probably a good indication that you goofed in your execution.

Catnip1024:

trunkage:
While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny.

Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie. Rey wasn't the highest quality of writing, but didn't have any of the jarring "why the fuck would they do that?" moments. Likewise, I was kind of appreciating the engineer character from the latest one until she pulled that batshit crazy stunt at the end...

The difference between Rey and Luke is generational - 70s movies tended not to have the same expectations on character development. He was a 2D stereotype character, but that was fine because the film was about the story not the people.

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

And in a wider sense, I think we come back to the difference between movies about storylines and movies about people. James Bond is a walking stereotype, but that works because Bond films are about the story and not him as a person. There is (or should be) no attempt to explain him or develop him, because that's not the point. I think the more modern Star Wars films attempt to make people care more about the characters, and as a result open themselves to more scrutiny when said characters are poor.

Bond never worked for me (until Casino Royale) specifically becuase he was a walking stereotype. I think explaining him in Casino Royale was the best thing they did for him. Pity they haven't done much with that.

You could be right about trying to develop characters you care about gets more scrutiny. The reverse happens to me when I try to discuss how archetypal and basic Luke and the gang are. They don't sound like they've spent anytime thinking about it.

Which meand that if you compare an old liked character to a new character, you're never going to know why you like the former over the latter. It's based on feelings and deliberately ignoring character traits.

trunkage:
So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue. Usually what follows is a list of great female characters to prove this point.

I can answer this thread with an old joke:

What do you call a male Mary Sue?
The protagonist.

Smithnikov:
Meh, I had far more pressing problems with those movies than Rey, so she sort of went under the radar for me. I didn't mind her so much.

Honestly, the Rey/luke portions of TLJ were the only bits I enjoyed. Well, there may have been a stray scene or two, but I literally couldn't finish the movie in 3-4 settings. I had to hit half a dozen before I got there.

I liked TFA, though, so I can't really talk.

CyanCat47:
However none of these characters are actually Mary Sues because that's not about power. A Mary Sue character is always right, never makes personal mistakes and only ever fails because other people are evil rather than because they made mistakes, and this is not true for any of the three.

Another element of a Mary Sue is that the plot essentially warps around her, and Rey doesn't really fit that, either. Rey is of particular interest to about three characters in TLJ...well, four...which is why the First Order is busy chasing down a series of spaceships that are low on gas. Rilo Kiley wants to convert her, Darth Sirkis realises that she--not Luke--is the Light Side's chosen opposition to Shirtless Ben, and Luke only sort of begrudgingly takes interest in her and only after both Chewie and Artoo sass him. Finn's not even interested in her because of her powers: she's one of the only friends he has, and he bonded with her in a much more organic way than "I was so tortured I left the First Order but now I'm murdering people with mah boiiiii Poe!" and no doubt wants to sleep with her, but even then, she's not the only woman in the room.

In fact, much of the other plot is unaffected by her presence. Even Force Jesus' intervention would have been unnecessary save for a situation created by Rey's absence. The movie would have had less Snarky Luke and no OG Yoda and would have been even more about running out of gas, but it still would have happened.

Luke and Anakin both played pivotal roles multiple times in the victories of their respective sides. Rey has largely done her own story. She has a couple of awesome laser sword scenes, but she doesn't really do much...she's arguably part of why Han ends up confronting Dath Daddyissues when she gets damseled, and then...she may have helped make the Imperial Cosplay more dangerous?

The latter point does dovetail nicely with what you were saying about being always right and whatnot, too.

Catnip1024:
Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie.

"I didn't do it" is not the same as "it doesn't happen."

I don't eat at Chipolte, but for some reason, people do.

Its she's a chick. She started the film with a number of already key skillsets, but so did Luke (could piolot a lad speeder andd rutinly went flying and shoot dog sized critters from a distance when others thought that the same sized exhost port on the Death Star was imposible) and Ani (he's a pod racer, which is at such high speeds and dangerous terrain and territory that one needs "Jedi Reflexes" just not to die, much less race well). At the same time, she just makeing it up as she goes with a lightsaber and winning against someone that is both emotionaly unstable and just survived a shot that previously been shown to have explosive firepower is less OP then say a 9 year old kid abble to outdo drones and take out an entire armada by himlonesome, or a a farm boy doing what seasoned piolots couldn't?

In the second film she is effectivly dealing with two teachers, one a grumpy old man, and one a shell shocked nut case.

Women are more scuitinized in media, its not a secret. There was a contraversy over how Spiderwoman was posed in one cover despite it because it was "for fanservice" despite being the same pose we've seen the Freindly Neighborhood Spiderman take when he crawls around.

Or how many female charecters you can think of where their standard armor choices look like they came out of a Swimsuit eddition of Sports Illistrated, but the guys can wear the same exact gear and it looks like it could protect you from a stray arrow?

Han Solo was a street rat from Corellia that could fly a starship, shoot a gun, play a masterful hand of Sabac and speak fluent Wookie.

The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

altnameJag:
Han Solo was a street rat from Corellia that could fly a starship, shoot a gun, play a masterful hand of Sabac and speak fluent Wookie.

The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

Probably came with being a street kid. Remember 9 year old Anni could speak several alien languages, and build his own protocal droid from scrap working with a scrap dealer

trunkage:
Which meand that if you compare an old liked character to a new character, you're never going to know why you like the former over the latter. It's based on feelings and deliberately ignoring character traits.

To be fair, the primary reason the original Star Wars movies are held in such high esteem is based on nostalgia, along with the fact that they were pretty remarkable for their time. If both trilogies came out at today, they would be being slated at least as hard as the latest films.

altnameJag:
The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

They heard he had a black friend. I'm not saying the Empire is an analogue for White Supremacy, but the creators sure have....

saint of m:
Probably came with being a street kid. Remember 9 year old Anni could speak several alien languages, and build his own protocal droid from scrap working with a scrap dealer

Which makes her a Mary Sue.

...wait, what? Anni is Anakin? Well, that's okay then.

I don't care or pay attention whiny to twat fanboy/fangirls. I am a casual Star Wars fan, so most changes don't bother me. I still say Episode 2 is the worst of the whole movie series. The thing these people seem to forget is the series has always gad writing problems as a whole. It's just matter when some of these assholes are "going to put their foot down" on one silly thing and not the other. Hypocritical fandom at its finest. Rey is the least of the new Star Wars films problems, which are not that many, and I enjoy them for what they are. If certain parts of the fandom are miserable, because I and other enjoy the new films, so be it.

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

I think I haven't watched the new ones, simply because I'm tired of the OP nature of the protagonists. It's not really about Rey's sex, it's about the, well, the 'super-hero like' nature of the stories now. I'm kinda tired of it all, and it's just easier to avoid the series in it's entirety. Especially if Han is also OP, as has been mentioned. I guess I've always liked the journey to greatness in these sort of stories.

Asita:
Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution.

I certainly get your point. In the wider sense of execution, there are a lot of aspects of the film leaving something to be desired - they can't be arsed waiting for anything. Fire a beam half way across the galaxy and wipe out an entire star system in 20 seconds, no less. The hyperspace jump that takes 3 seconds, not even enough time for a coffee, when in the original there was clearly time for some R&R.

On the other hand, excessive innate Force powers aside, she's hardly any worse than Anakin and what he could do at half her age. I have no idea how anyone in the galaxy can live in poverty given the astonishing skills their slum dwellers seem to pick up.

the December King:
I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

The criticism of Anakin has mellowed somewhat over the years, but you are absolutely right. On the release of ep 1 the vitriol aimed at Jake Lloyd was enough to drive him out of acting for good. If one was to make a distinction, one might say that Anakin mostly caught flak for being poorly written in general, with few complains about his "power level". Rey on the other hand has mostly caught flak for being a Mary Sue (which is a very specific kind of poorly written) because she, at twice his age, is able to do some of the things Anakin did.

Something Amyss:
Which makes her a Mary Sue.

...wait, what? Anni is Anakin? Well, that's okay then.

Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

Gethsemani:

the December King:
I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

The criticism of Anakin has mellowed somewhat over the years, but you are absolutely right. On the release of ep 1 the vitriol aimed at Jake Lloyd was enough to drive him out of acting for good. If one was to make a distinction, one might say that Anakin mostly caught flak for being poorly written in general, with few complains about his "power level". Rey on the other hand has mostly caught flak for being a Mary Sue (which is a very specific kind of poorly written) because she, at twice his age, is able to do some of the things Anakin did.

Episode 1 was released before the internet had really taken off. I'm sure if most people had ever heard of the term Mary Sue at the time, he would have been called one.

Drathnoxis:
Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was too over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled out on that front.

Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

the December King:
I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset?

Just go back to this very forum the month after TFA came out, and you will find numerous people defending Ani's skillset.

Drathnoxis:
Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

Not as weird as when people try and pretend it was his skills or power level people hated, rather than the child actor in Episode 1 and the fact that he was constantly whining in 2 and 3. Because what people really hate about Ani was his skills, which is why they meme him jumping out of windows as a bad thing, and not jokes about sand and I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Onbe of the only things defended in the prequels was the action, and a large chunk of that was Anakin's, so maybe don't pretend people hated him because he was teh leet haxorz with a saber or could throw people. Occasionally, you would get people complaining the the Force was so much more powerful, but that wasn't leveled specifically at Anakin.

Casual Shinji:
The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was to over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled on that front.

Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

Oh, someone got there first, I see.

I mean, you kind of have to be hyper competent, extremely lucky, or both to make it the Star Wars 'verse. not just the main characters, either.

The Force Awakens suffered from having Luke Skywalker's three-movie arc condensed into one movie for Rey. The Last Jedi suffered from Rian Johnson deciding he wanted to deconstruct the "hero's journey" and hamfisting it to hell and back.

A lot of people who can't stand things not being 100% about them all the time decided it's because of "dem whamenz".

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