Discussion about Self-Insert Characters in Fiction (Mary Sue/Gary Stu)

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Casual Shinji:

Drathnoxis:
Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was too over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled out on that front.

Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

Oh come on, nobody liked Anakin's stupid flight to destroy the power core that somehow single handedly won the war.

Agema:

Asita:
Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution.

I certainly get your point. In the wider sense of execution, there are a lot of aspects of the film leaving something to be desired - they can't be arsed waiting for anything. Fire a beam half way across the galaxy and wipe out an entire star system in 20 seconds, no less. The hyperspace jump that takes 3 seconds, not even enough time for a coffee, when in the original there was clearly time for some R&R.

On the other hand, excessive innate Force powers aside, she's hardly any worse than Anakin and what he could do at half her age. I have no idea how anyone in the galaxy can live in poverty given the astonishing skills their slum dwellers seem to pick up.

I'm not sure that's actually true though. Thinking on Anakin a moment, his character at introduction is basically summed up as "street racer"[1]. Guy's surrounded by machines his whole life and works with them for a living, builds his own "car" which he uses to race. Talent set at start is his mechanical ability and piloting skills, the latter of which is further enabled by preternaturally good reflexes and insticts. What does he actually do in Phantom Menace? He races. He is tested for Force Sensitivity, he participates in a dogfight. There's a discussion to be had about how much sense it makes that piloting a pod racer should be comparable to piloting a 1-man fighter, but narratively the point of the former is to make the latter easier to accept (bad writing though it may be). Piloting, instinct, piloting. He sticks very much in his niche, and doesn't really go outside of it until after the credits.

Thinking on Rey, however? Well, at introduction it's hard to nail her down in a single term, but basically she's a salvager with elements of tomb raiding (particularly exploration and free climbing). And then when it comes to things she does? She surprises herself with her instinctive piloting abilities in a ship she has never flown. She fixes the Falcon (justifiable given the skillset implied by her salvaging background). She gets a Force Vision and reflects the mind-probe of someone implied to be spectacularly powerful in the Force before she even knows that she can use it herself. And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

For all that people like to dismiss criticism of Rey by citing Anakin, there's not really a lot of overlap. You can perhaps make the case for overlap with the piloting, but I think a key difference in execution there is that while A New Hope and Phantom Menace tried to establish that Luke and Anakin had relatable experience, The Force Awakens made it a point to strongly suggest that Rey lacked such experience. It instead opted to use her surprising aptitude in what I'd argue was a misguided attempt at foreshadowing that she had supernatural abilities. Where the other examples were playing to a strength that was enabled by supernatural abilities, The Force Awakens instead decided that the supernatural abilities automatically translated to mastery even without experience. Rey's big moments in TFA were those where she showed an unexpected proficiency with something completely new to her. Conversely, in their equivalent films, Anakin and Luke's big moments were tied to things they gravitated towards because they were familiar to them.

As an analogy, it's the difference between a surgeon who became the best in her field because she had a sixth sense for the workings of the human body (ie, she's trained and the ability gives her an added edge over her colleagues), and a mechanic who can perform open heart surgery because of the same ability (ie, the ability replaces training entirely). Or in tabletop terms, it's the difference between getting a +3 bonus in addition to your skill ranks, and simply being told to "take 20" even without skill ranks. This is what I mean about execution. While our hypothetical surgeon and mechanic can both be said to have operated on someone, the circumstances leading to that operation and how it's explained make the similarity superficial.

[1] Improbable age notwithstanding, but I believe I've mentioned at least a few times that I think the Anakin should have been aged up half a dozen years

the December King:
I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

I think I haven't watched the new ones, simply because I'm tired of the OP nature of the protagonists. It's not really about Rey's sex, it's about the, well, the 'super-hero like' nature of the stories now. I'm kinda tired of it all, and it's just easier to avoid the series in it's entirety. Especially if Han is also OP, as has been mentioned. I guess I've always liked the journey to greatness in these sort of stories.

BUT HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE!

Asita:
And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

Gethsemani:

Asita:
And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

That's the one I saw. I preferred it in terms of aesthetics as well... as opposed to the uselessly flipping and spinning wire-fu of the prequels. It was more like the broadsword stagefighting of epic fantasy rather than the twee twirling of the prequels that made pitched life and death battles look like nothing more than glow sticks at a kiddy rave. Plus, the established she was proficient with a melee weapon. Principle is the same, hold it by the handle... bonk them with the other end. That vs a severely injured opponent... sprinkle on some space magic and its easily plausible.

Kyrian007:
That vs a severely injured opponent... sprinkle on some space magic and its easily plausible.

I mean, there's also the fact that Kylo is toying with both Finn and Rey. He dispatches Finn after he gets in a single, glancing blow, and before that he had been avoiding swings pretty handily. And while he may not have cared if Finn lived, he wanted Rey alive to train her, which not only gave her an opening but gave her the idea to use the Force. Up to that point, Rey was on the defensive the entire fight, retreating against someone who was not trying to kill her. Darth Cosplay specifically locked her up off-balance on the edge of a ravine. He could have killed her easily. He didn't because the Force works in mysterious ways he wanted an apprentice. Or another apprentice. I forget if the Knights of Ren are his students or not. TBH, I don't really care, either.

There's the argument that he should have known she was calling on the Force, but even if Force users can sense other Force users using the Force, I think it's well within not only his character but the choreography of the fight that he wouldn't expect it because he had her beat.

I'm not sure it even matters that he was injured except specifically to show how much of a badass he is. Dude took a bowcaster bolt and still had two of the main heroes on the ropes. His only real failing is his overconfidence, because while Rey may have been a threat on some level, I have no doubt he could have killed Finn with his first strike if he wanted to. The fight was desperate, but only for Finn and Rey. And that's part of what makes the scene so cool. The other part being the style of the fight overall. I also much preferred this style of fighting to the prequel fights.

Besides, space magic fixes everything...except when it doesn't.

Kyrian007:
That's the one I saw. I preferred it in terms of aesthetics as well... as opposed to the uselessly flipping and spinning wire-fu of the prequels. It was more like the broadsword stagefighting of epic fantasy rather than the twee twirling of the prequels that made pitched life and death battles look like nothing more than glow sticks at a kiddy rave. Plus, the established she was proficient with a melee weapon. Principle is the same, hold it by the handle... bonk them with the other end. That vs a severely injured opponent... sprinkle on some space magic and its easily plausible.

I've got to say, the worst for me was when Darth Maul handily takes on Obi-Wan and Qi-Gon Jinn at the same time, kills the latter and knocks the former down a pit. Then Obi Wan somehow force leaps out of the pit to somersault over Maul's head, pulling his lightsaber to him and nails Maul... and somehow this super-lethal Sith who can deflect laser bolts and outmatched two skilled Jedi effectively doesn't even react in the time it would take all that to happen. Sure! I know Hollywood loves its trope of the hero pulling it back from the brink of defeat, but sometimes it's taken to absurdity.

And oh, the irony of Obi-Wan telling Anakin he can't win the fight in the lava field because Obi-Wan has the terrain advantage, two films later.

Drathnoxis:
Oh come on, nobody liked Anakin's stupid flight to destroy the power core that somehow single handedly won the war.

Yeah, but that's because they didn't like the kid, and it was a super convenient solution. I don't think anyone complained about him acing that pod race, which is equally ridiculous for a kid his age.

But let's say people's biggest problem was that he was too overpowered; What does Rey do that's equel to that that makes her a Mary Sue? She flies a spaceship adequately, knows how to fix machines, and is a somewhat capable fighter. And at the end she beats a bratty Darth Vader wannabee who got shot in the stomach in a lightsaber dual. Is that so much more crazy than Luke curving a missle into a tiny hole while going mach 20 through a trench while only being somewhat aware of his force powers?

Again, Star Wars protagonists are typically imbued with "heroic" talents, because it's necessary for the action adventure they're about experience. Similar to how in Lord of the Rings these little hobbits, who's only experience is farming, are somehow able to hold their own against vicious orcs twice their size. The only difference now being that this character is a girl, which apparently means there needs to be a better reason for her having these talents.

Everyone can be called a Mary Sue when compared to Luke Skywalker, the least competent main hero character I know of. He only wins because an all-encompassing magical force really wants him to, and even then it requires a level of incompetence from his enemies that would make team rocket embarrassed. Even Yoda says so until he is killed of for pointing out that Luke doesn't work as a hero character at all and Luke is Retconned as knowing what he is doing in Return of the Jedi.

Honestly, I prefer my stories to acknowledge that the hero who is to solve it all is something of an exceptional person. It just comes off as sheer wish fulfillment when some random schmuck like Luke Skywalker gets to be the big hero.

Something Amyss:

Just go back to this very forum the month after TFA came out, and you will find numerous people defending Ani's skillset.

I'll take your word for it, though I remember more comparisons between Luke and Rey going on than with Anikin, in general.

Not as weird as when people try and pretend it was his skills or power level people hated, rather than the child actor in Episode 1 and the fact that he was constantly whining in 2 and 3. Because what people really hate about Ani was his skills, which is why they meme him jumping out of windows as a bad thing, and not jokes about sand and I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Speaking for myself, I disliked the overpowered nature of Anikin in the Prequels more than anything else about him, but yeah, the character's portrayal overall is tiresome. The fact that it hasn't really come up until now is likely because I never really considered this in light (or in contrast to) Rey's accomplishments - I also haven't really felt like I could comment on her character, as I haven't seen the new movies, and only know of her feats from these threads.

Gethsemani:

Asita:
And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

Well to answer snark with snark, sometimes I wonder if people actually read what I wrote.

Snark aside, I'm legitimately confused as to your takeaway from my post and how "Kylo Ren was injured" is supposed to be a modifier I overlooked. Consider that example in the context of the rest of my post. My overall point was the tendency for Rey's big moments to occur when she was outside her niche. Kylo being injured doesn't factor into this, as my point wasn't that she won the fight, but rather the oddity (and I'd argue narrative failing) of how her skillset played into that fight. She fared poorly when playing to her skillset but did well when she dropped that skillset and instead used an unfamiliar one. More than that, my point was that the oddity of that was not isolated to the fight, but part of a larger pattern with her in TFA; ie, the poor execution I've been alluding to.

As an aside however:

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

This equivalence ends up annoying me to no end. Not quite as much as "he made the missile turn at a right angle with the Force" malarkey[1], but still... Anyways, Empire Strikes Back takes place three years after the end of A New Hope. There's a rather severe difference between figuring something out in the course of minutes and figuring something out in the course of years.

Narratively, Luke pulling on his Lightsaber is there both to indicate growth in that period and to set up the idea that while he has powers he needs training to really come into his own with regards to his abilities. It's also a bit of a refresher for the audience that Star Wars is a universe where rare individuals have special powers. Luke's entrance in Return of the Jedi served a similar role, only this time the effortlessness with which he uses his abilities suggests that over the time skip he gained greater confidence and proficiency and is closer to mastering them.

[1] It's not a missile launch, it's a bombing run that draws heavily from the Dam Busters (based on Operation Chastise in WWII)

Casual Shinji:

Drathnoxis:
Oh come on, nobody liked Anakin's stupid flight to destroy the power core that somehow single handedly won the war.

Yeah, but that's because they didn't like the kid, and it was a super convenient solution. I don't think anyone complained about him acing that pod race, which is equally ridiculous for a kid his age.

Plus that Nintendo Pod Racer game was good, so I was biased on him doing this. I was blinded by an actual good game

Asita:

Gethsemani:

Asita:
And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

Well to answer snark with snark, sometimes I wonder if people actually read what I wrote.

Snark aside, I'm legitimately confused as to your takeaway from my post and how "Kylo Ren was injured" is supposed to be a modifier I overlooked. Consider that example in the context of the rest of my post. My overall point was the tendency for Rey's big moments to occur when she was outside her niche. Kylo being injured doesn't factor into this, as my point wasn't that she won the fight, but rather the oddity (and I'd argue narrative failing) of how her skillset played into that fight. She fared poorly when playing to her skillset but did well when she dropped that skillset and instead used an unfamiliar one. More than that, my point was that the oddity of that was not isolated to the fight, but part of a larger pattern with her in TFA; ie, the poor execution I've been alluding to.

I dunno, letting the force guide your actions is pretty much end level Jedi philosophy. That she'd start winning when she did so makes sense. Or at least, makes as much sense as Luke translating his planetary speeder experience into military grade star fighter performance.

The different ways Kylo use their power is also something I think a lot of folks overlook. Like, despite people talking up him using his pain and rage as an appropriately Sith way to get power...he sucks at it. Anytime he's mad or in pain or lashing out with those good ol' Sith emotions, he's objectively weaker than when he's calm and composed. Angry Kylo couldn't have taken out Snoke.

He self-sabotages by trying to be the Sith he thinks his Granddad was.

altnameJag:

Anytime he's mad or in pain or lashing out with those good ol' Sith emotions, he's objectively weaker than when he's calm and composed. Angry Kylo couldn't have taken out Snoke.

He self-sabotages by trying to be the Sith he thinks his Granddad was.

Never thought of it that way. Calm and composed Kylo can freeze a blaster bolt in mid air, angry/upset Kylo can get gut-shot by a wookie's bowcaster. Calm Kylo can trick and kill Snoke, angry Kylo can get force bitch-slapped by Snoke.

twistedmic:

altnameJag:

Anytime he's mad or in pain or lashing out with those good ol' Sith emotions, he's objectively weaker than when he's calm and composed. Angry Kylo couldn't have taken out Snoke.

He self-sabotages by trying to be the Sith he thinks his Granddad was.

Never thought of it that way. Calm and composed Kylo can freeze a blaster bolt in mid air, angry/upset Kylo can get gut-shot by a wookie's bowcaster. Calm Kylo can trick and kill Snoke, angry Kylo can get force bitch-slapped by Snoke.

Might be a self controle issue. Remember, the Bowcaster was shown to hit like a grenade launcher in that movie. Then he is survives having that go through him at least a Kidney if not a large number of other internal organs and only groan as if it was just a pulled musle, ven hitting it in an attempt to drive it back to place.

By the time he and Rey face off against not palpetine, he is the one calm and collected and Rey is the one letter her emotions take controle (something shown to be exploited by Darth Maul's fight with Obiwan after he killed Qui-Go).

altnameJag:
I dunno, letting the force guide your actions is pretty much end level Jedi philosophy. That she'd start winning when she did so makes sense. Or at least, makes as much sense as Luke translating his planetary speeder experience into military grade star fighter performance.

"End level" is a pretty significant modifier when you're talking about a neophyte with no experience and little to no guidance. I'm assuming you're talking about Oneness, and Rey pulling that off in the first movie would make things so much worse. That's an achievement comparable to Enlightenment in Buddhism or Mushin in martial arts (or if you want to go completely over the top, Ultra Instinct in Dragon Ball Super). Which is to say that it's "legends among legends" material. It's the kind of thing you invoke when you're ready to end a character's story, not when you're just starting it.

Asita:

altnameJag:
I dunno, letting the force guide your actions is pretty much end level Jedi philosophy. That she'd start winning when she did so makes sense. Or at least, makes as much sense as Luke translating his planetary speeder experience into military grade star fighter performance.

"End level" is a pretty significant modifier when you're talking about a neophyte with no experience and little to no guidance. I'm assuming you're talking about Oneness, and Rey pulling that off in the first movie would make things so much worse. That's an achievement comparable to Enlightenment in Buddhism or Mushin in martial arts (or if you want to go completely over the top, Ultra Instinct in Dragon Ball Super). Which is to say that it's "legends among legends" material. It's the kind of thing you invoke when you're ready to end a character's story, not when you're just starting it.

It takes a lot of faith to give up control of your own actions and go with the flow. Faith is something Rey has a lot of.

An over abundance, considering the mistakes she makes in TLJ.

(And, as I'm always gonna point out, this "letting the force control her actions" thing managed to let her temporarily beat a heavily wounded, emotionally compromised opponent who wasn't trying to kill her back. Meanwhile, Kylo managed to get wounded by Finn, the only person in history to lose a lightsaber fight with a Stormtrooper)

altnameJag:

Asita:

altnameJag:
I dunno, letting the force guide your actions is pretty much end level Jedi philosophy. That she'd start winning when she did so makes sense. Or at least, makes as much sense as Luke translating his planetary speeder experience into military grade star fighter performance.

"End level" is a pretty significant modifier when you're talking about a neophyte with no experience and little to no guidance. I'm assuming you're talking about Oneness, and Rey pulling that off in the first movie would make things so much worse. That's an achievement comparable to Enlightenment in Buddhism or Mushin in martial arts (or if you want to go completely over the top, Ultra Instinct in Dragon Ball Super). Which is to say that it's "legends among legends" material. It's the kind of thing you invoke when you're ready to end a character's story, not when you're just starting it.

It takes a lot of faith to give up control of your own actions and go with the flow. Faith is something Rey has a lot of.

An over abundance, considering the mistakes she makes in TLJ.

...Alt? I do not think you grasp the implications of your suggestion. You are not suggesting that she centered herself and found her second wind. What you are suggesting is something that in terms of narrative is more of a mistake than the post-hoc explanation on wookiepedia that she "accessed memories of Ren's training which, in turn, served as her own training in the ways of the Force", or the fan-theory that she's tapping memories and skills from a past life. You are suggesting that in her first fight, minutes to hours after learning that she could use the Force, she was able to turn the tables because her opponent mentioning the Force made her figure out how to enter a state that most masters do not achieve. Yoda never reached that state.

Edit: As the post apparently was expanded while I was typing:

altnameJag:

(And, as I'm always gonna point out, this "letting the force control her actions" thing managed to let her temporarily beat a heavily wounded, emotionally compromised opponent who wasn't trying to kill her back. Meanwhile, Kylo managed to get wounded by Finn, the only person in history to lose a lightsaber fight with a Stormtrooper)

I explained this in the very post you were responding to, Alt:

"My overall point was the tendency for Rey's big moments to occur when she was outside her niche. Kylo being injured doesn't factor into this, as my point wasn't that she won the fight, but rather the oddity (and I'd argue narrative failing) of how her skillset played into that fight."

I have not been talking about whether Rey or Ren should have won the fight. I have been talking about how established and unestablished skills played into Rey's achievements.

the December King:
Speaking for myself, I disliked the overpowered nature of Anikin in the Prequels more than anything else about him, but yeah, the character's portrayal overall is tiresome. The fact that it hasn't really come up until now is likely because I never really considered this in light (or in contrast to) Rey's accomplishments - I also haven't really felt like I could comment on her character, as I haven't seen the new movies, and only know of her feats from these threads.

Jedi implies Vader was always strong in the Force, hence the notion that any progeny would also be, so it never really bothered me that he was good. Especially since his piloting skills come down to nascent precognitive abilities which we see grow within the movies. I also wasn't all that bothered because the overall power level of the Jedi was higher and he never came off as that much more powerful to me. Granted, I've seen each of the OT movies exactly once, because they had a lot of other problems, so I might be misremembering things. But the worst I can really recall is that he was slightly better at the flippy stuff than Obi-Wan, which mostly showed itself off in two scenes in the entire trilogy. And even then, experience wins the day in the end (even if emotion leaves Vader alive to fight another day).

My biggest complaint about the prequels is that Ani is supposed to be a tragic figure. We're supposed to watch his rise and fall, but he's only slightly more sympathetic than Young Voldemort, and I don't care as a result.

Casual Shinji:
Yeah, but that's because they didn't like the kid, and it was a super convenient solution. I don't think anyone complained about him acing that pod race, which is equally ridiculous for a kid his age.

Does it count if you think the whole podrace was stupid because the fate of the galaxy hinged upon it? I wasn't bothered so much by Anmi's win, but the whole plate.

Asita:
...Alt? I do not think you grasp the implications of your suggestion. You are not suggesting that she centered herself and found her second wind. What you are suggesting is something that in terms of narrative is more of a mistake than the post-hoc explanation on wookiepedia that she "accessed memories of Ren's training which, in turn, served as her own training in the ways of the Force", or the fan-theory that she's tapping memories and skills from a past life. You are suggesting that in her first fight, minutes to hours after learning that she could use the Force, she accomplished something that most masters do not achieve. Yoda never reached that state.

To the contrary, it sounds like he's suggesting she achieved a state Luke achieved in Episode IV with only a few words of advice from a crazy old hermit when he hadn't even heard of the Force a day before. Except likely augmented by the way the galaxy knows about the Force again (which is sort of a dumb contrivance of the whole saga, that people could forget in a couple of decades and then re-learn in a couple of decades).

It's also not that insane when you consider that the explanation TLJ gives about why Rey is so powerful--the canon explanation--is not that she accesses Milo Stimpy's training, but that the Force will create a balance, lading to a great light to match the great dark. It's not hard to buy that giving herself over to the Force would then allow a deeper connection. There's already an extant fan theory that goes along these lines: most or all of Rey's greatest feats are when she is letting the Force act through her, as opposed to controlling it. Star Wars Explained covered it at one point, and there is at the very least a level of consistency to it.

Granted, Luke had "one bornevery minute" levels of gullibility in Ep IV and all he did was block a training droid shot and bend a torpedo....

Something Amyss:
To the contrary, it sounds like he's suggesting she achieved a state Luke achieved in Episode IV with only a few words of advice from a crazy old hermit when he hadn't even heard of the Force a day before. Except likely augmented by the way the galaxy knows about the Force again (which is sort of a dumb contrivance of the whole saga, that people could forget in a couple of decades and then re-learn in a couple of decades).

It's also not that insane when you consider that the explanation TLJ gives about why Rey is so powerful--the canon explanation--is not that she accesses Milo Stimpy's training, but that the Force will create a balance, lading to a great light to match the great dark. It's not hard to buy that giving herself over to the Force would then allow a deeper connection. There's already an extant fan theory that goes along these lines: most or all of Rey's greatest feats are when she is letting the Force act through her, as opposed to controlling it. Star Wars Explained covered it at one point, and there is at the very least a level of consistency to it.

Granted, Luke had "one bornevery minute" levels of gullibility in Ep IV and all he did was block a training droid shot and bend a torpedo....

I disagree with that characterization. The idea hammered into Luke and the audience in Episode IV is that he needed to trust his instincts. The moment they used to set up the trench run was Luke's training on the Falcon, wherein the key takeaway was to trust your instincts over your eyes and that the Force would augment a person's senses and allow them to react more accurately.

And while I grant that I'd still be a bit leery of that considering that Rey didn't even get that paltry guidance, that's a far more reasonable explanation than saying she "let the Force act through her, as opposed to controlling it". The former's a basic Force ability that would inevitably form the foundation of her training, so while I'd still say that would be bad writing (or at least bad direction) for her to grasp it so suddenly in the heat of a duel with even less guidance than Luke got, it's at least plausible. The latter, however, is Oneness. Sticking with Luke for ease of example, he entered that state once, and that was during the climax of the Yuuzhan Vong War. Rey doing that so soon wouldn't just be skipping the basic training, that would be pole-vaulting straight into the realm of legends.

And an aside: He did not bend a torpedo. It's a bombing run, not a missile launch. If it required magically bending the flight path of missile, the mission would have been dismissed as literally impossible, not just requiring improbable accuracy. Furthermore, it's worth noting that the Trench Run is based heavily off of Dam Busters, itself based on the WWII "Operation Chastise" and its "bouncing bombs".

trunkage:
So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue.

She's called that because that's what the character is. She's completely perfect in every way. Despite establishing that she grew up penniless on a desert, she's an unbeatable fighter, speaks every language, an expert pilot, kind, generous and loyal, she beats a trained Dark Jedi the first time she picks up a lightsaber, is a master of the force with no training, beats a jedi master and so on. She exists because that's what Disney execs and Kathleen Kennedy want to portray in their world. It's social justice dialled up to 11.

But the problem isn't just Rey, the movies she's in are awful, have essentially spat on and burned all previous films and canon, and ruined a franchise for many (millions of) fans. Most characters in the movies are awful, but Rey and Rose are particularly awful...and Benicio Del Torro's stupid character too. Rose, ostensibly put in to appeal to "the Chinese market", was so bad I would say she was by far the worst thing in Episode VIII, and that's with a purple haired Laura Dern making every effort possible to make us hate her.

trunkage:
So my question is... why is it not okay for female characters to not work? For many, Rey doesn't work and then she's seen as some affront to culture.

Err what? She's not an affront, she's just a badly written, badly thought out Mary Sue character.

trunkage:
While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny.

They certainly are. It could be that Rey gets more attention on account of ruining Star Wars, which if you haven't noticed is, or at least was, a massively popular franchise until Disney (and EA) took a flamethrower to it. Bad male characters are criticised wholesale wherever they appear, it's just that you don't get called a sexist when you criticise a male character, so there's no controversy for SJWs to jump on.

Terminator: Genysis? Both John Connor and Kyle Reese were absolutely awful. I watched "The Nun" last month, the French-Canadian guy was the worst thing in it, and it was a really bad movie. I'm not a huge fan of Hayden Christensenn's Anakin, all Nick Cage roles except Con Air...I can name loads of awful male characters.

trunkage:
I've already plenty of people being against Ms Marvel movie next year and how she's be ruining comics for a while. Why is it not okay for her to 'ruin comics' just like plenty of male characters 'ruined comics'

Okay, this is a different thing. The short version...essentially Marvel Comics caught a bad case of "social justice". They went on a rampage and anything "white" and "male" was out. Thor, woman. Tony Stark? Gone. Iron Man, 15 y/o black girl. Captain America, Nazi. I'm not joking, an actual, literal Nazi. Role then filled by...black guy. They pushed Captain Marvel so hard to be the headlining hero in the comics. They relaunched her title give times (five issue 1s!) in very little time because they never catch on. I believe the head honcho has now been fired for driving the comic part of the business into the ground.

In short, Captain Marvel kinda did ruin the comic books because they kept trying to push her as the flagship hero and no one was buying it. Sales figures were falling, fans were alienated. I believe they're now trying to undo the damage done and bring back the original heroes, but I don't know details. But for years, particularly since the success of the MCU, people could watch Cap, Iron Man and Thor on screen, but were completely unable to buy their comic books because they were gender/race flipped in the name of "diversity".

trunkage:
(As an aside, I dont think Luke as much of a character. He's had little training and little personality. He's a cardboard cutout running around on adventures. He's ruined Star Wars before Daisy Ridley was even born.)

Luke was a better character than Rey by far. He had personality and flaws. In Empire, he thought he knew better, ignored Yoda's warnings, failed his training, left anyway to go to Bespin where he failed to save his friend and lost his hand. In RotJ, he almost gave in to the Dark Side when his father taunted him and was poised to kill his own father, only at the last minute holding back.

Rey is perfect and flawless. She should've had her butt whooped by Kylo Ren in that fight, gone to find Luke and come back stronger. But nope, she's a girl so she's better than everyone all the time, from the start, no training, can't lose, has to be portrayed as "strong".

The issue isn't Rey per se, it's the "strong female character". I loathe the SFC utterly, and this lady explains why SFCs suck so much. Ellen Ripley was an amazing female character. She was flawed, terrified, we could identify with her. We were terrified in Alien because she was, because we cared about her, because she was human and the xenomorph had already killed everyone else. She persevered in spite of her terror, used her engineering skills and knowledge of the ship. Ripley was a great character. Not a great "female" character. A great character, no qualification needed.

Sarah Connor in T1 was terrified, helpless, chased by an implacable enemy. She ran, she clawed desperately for life and in the end, one of the best movie endings. In T2, she was a nut-job, half crazy and violent. Watching her claim be vindicated when the T1000 walked into the psyche ward, when the arsehat shrink's pen fell from his mouth, was so satisfying. Because we knew she was right and cared about her struggle. Cersei Lannister is now wearing the crown of the Seven Kingdoms in Game of Thrones...you know how she got it? It wasn't with kung fu. She's a liar, cunning, smart and ruthless. Rey will never lose a fight, is never afraid, never needs help from anyone, is more powerful than everyone, she has no human qualities at all.

---------------

Overall, I think the issue is that in the current zeitgeist, no one will write believable female characters. "All princesses know kung-fu now". All female characters are now "strong". That's it, that's their only quality. They all know kung fu, need no help (certainly not from no man!), have few flaws if any. Where are the weak women? Where are the evil women? Where are the helpless, scared, rude, contemptible, dishonest, wise, funny, cunning women? Rey is one-dimensional, flawless and boring.

People love the original SW trilogy because it said something more about the human condition...every woman I know much prefers Luke over Rey, by miles, because he was relatable. People relate to characters they can identify with, but the issue now is that the social justice identitarians believe that no one can identify with characters that don't match the viewers race, sex or sexual preference. They're wrong, that's why Episodes 7-8 turned out as they did.

Every other Jedi, before Rey, has required some sort of mentor or to at least have partaken in some kind of practice.

For some reason Rey is so special that she did not need to do this.

How much of Luke's story involved conversations where he was being trained?
Anakin was the same, he showed skill in two fields and then spent, what, 8 years training with the Jedi?

Rey spent perhaps a year at most near Luke, and how much of that was actually spent training compared to how much time was required to even convince him to train her?

Even the piloting thing is absurd for Rey. She's upset that she's stuck on a planet but apparently is capable of not only piloting a ship with faster than light capability but knows how to repair one.

She's a SCAVENGER, not a mechanic. She takes things apart, that doesn't mean she knows how to put them back together.

KingsGambit:
She's called that because that's what the character is. She's completely perfect in every way. Despite establishing that she grew up penniless on a desert, she's an unbeatable fighter, speaks every language, an expert pilot, kind, generous and loyal, she beats a trained Dark Jedi the first time she picks up a lightsaber, is a master of the force with no training, beats a jedi master and so on. She exists because that's what Disney execs and Kathleen Kennedy want to portray in their world. It's social justice dialled up to 11.

She is not an invincible fighter. Her defeat of Kylo Ren was due to his injuries and impulsiveness. And kind? She sure doesn't act that way to Finn and BB-8. The only thing that is true here is expert pilot and that applies to every Star Wars film protagonist.

But the problem isn't just Rey, the movies she's in are awful, have essentially spat on and burned all previous films and canon, and ruined a franchise for many (millions of) fans. Most characters in the movies are awful, but Rey and Rose are particularly awful...and Benicio Del Torro's stupid character too. Rose, ostensibly put in to appeal to "the Chinese market", was so bad I would say she was by far the worst thing in Episode VIII, and that's with a purple haired Laura Dern making every effort possible to make us hate her.

Where the hell does this idea that Rose (a character played by a Vietnamese-American actress was put in to appeal to the Chinese market come from?

Err what? She's not an affront, she's just a badly written, badly thought out Mary Sue character.

For a character not seen as an affront, she sure rustles the jimmies of a huge number of online fanboys who go as far as harassing her actress.

They certainly are. It could be that Rey gets more attention on account of ruining Star Wars, which if you haven't noticed is, or at least was, a massively popular franchise until Disney (and EA) took a flamethrower to it. Bad male characters are criticised wholesale wherever they appear, it's just that you don't get called a sexist when you criticise a male character, so there's no controversy for SJWs to jump on.

Bad male characters rarely, if ever, get this level of backlash and accusations of SJW agenda (unless they're non-white). And as for ruining Star Wars, I thought the prequels did that?
As for the accusations of sexism, when you've got Rey getting crapped on for stuff other male characters have done and the actress herself being harassed, what conclusion is anyone to make about why Rey is getting singled out?

Terminator: Genysis? Both John Connor and Kyle Reese were absolutely awful. I watched "The Nun" last month, the French-Canadian guy was the worst thing in it, and it was a really bad movie. I'm not a huge fan of Hayden Christensenn's Anakin, all Nick Cage roles except Con Air...I can name loads of awful male characters.

See my above posts. The backlash was nowhere near this ridiculous (not to mention based on different things) and which of these actors got harassed for their roles?

Okay, this is a different thing. The short version...essentially Marvel Comics caught a bad case of "social justice".

Marvel's had a "bad case of social justice" since Stan and Jack put out a comic showing Steve Rogers punching Hitler on the cover. A move which got them death threats and I can only imagine what would happen had such a thing been done today. The Marvel you're seeing now is the one Stan and Jack wanted.

They went on a rampage and anything "white" and "male" was out. Thor, woman.

Thor has been everything from a frog to a horse-faced alien. This is not the weirdest thing to happen in Marvel.

Tony Stark? Gone. Iron Man, 15 y/o black girl.

Riri Williams wasn't going by Iron Man. She was calling herself Iron Heart. Dr Doom was the one calling himself Iron Man. You'd think a villain assuming a hero's identity would be far more offensive, especially in light of Superior Spider-Man but people were more pissed at the black girl who wasn't even calling herself Iron Man.

Captain America, Nazi. I'm not joking, an actual, literal Nazi.

Not the first time it had happened. Kirby himself did this in the 70s.

Role then filled by...black guy.

Said black guy had been a Captain America supporting character for decades. It wasn't anymore out of place than Dick Grayson becoming Batman. Twice.

They pushed Captain Marvel so hard to be the headlining hero in the comics. They relaunched her title give times (five issue 1s!) in very little time because they never catch on. I believe the head honcho has now been fired for driving the comic part of the business into the ground.In short, Captain Marvel kinda did ruin the comic books because they kept trying to push her as the flagship hero and no one was buying it. Sales figures were falling, fans were alienated.

DC and Marvel push characters all the time regardless of sales. In the case of Carol, she had an upcoming movie and was a character whose film rights they had access to. How the hell were they not going to push her?
The reason for collapsing sales was Marvel's idiotic business practices. Namely, oversaturation of events, increased prices, poor distribution and over reliance on the direct market. Not to mention that the comic industry has been failing for decades due to competition from other media.

I believe they're now trying to undo the damage done and bring back the original heroes, but I don't know details. But for years, particularly since the success of the MCU, people could watch Cap, Iron Man and Thor on screen, but were completely unable to buy their comic books because they were gender/race flipped in the name of "diversity".

So despite being able to see Thor, Iron Man and Cap in the movies (not to mention the games, t.v. shows and other media) them being temporarily replaced in the comics (one of the oldest traditions in the superhero genre) was too unbearable?

Luke was a better character than Rey by far. He had personality and flaws. In Empire, he thought he knew better, ignored Yoda's warnings, failed his training, left anyway to go to Bespin where he failed to save his friend and lost his hand. In RotJ, he almost gave in to the Dark Side when his father taunted him and was poised to kill his own father, only at the last minute holding back.

Rey is perfect and flawless. She should've had her butt whooped by Kylo Ren in that fight, gone to find Luke and come back stronger. But nope, she's a girl so she's better than everyone all the time, from the start, no training, can't lose, has to be portrayed as "strong".

In TFA, Rey is headstrong and stubborn and an ass to Finn and BB-8 for a long time. In TLJ, her desperation to be someone special and to find her parents in preyed upon by Ren. And again, her victory against Ren was due to his injuries and impulsiveness.

The issue isn't Rey per se, it's the "strong female character". I loathe the SFC utterly, and this lady explains why SFCs suck so much.

Literally none of these issues apply to Rey. In both of the films she has appeared in, Rey is shown to have faults and insecurities which the villains take advantage of. At one point we even see her running in fear.

Overall, I think the issue is that in the current zeitgeist, no one will write believable female characters. "All princesses know kung-fu now". All female characters are now "strong". That's it, that's their only quality. They all know kung fu, need no help (certainly not from no man!), have few flaws if any. Where are the weak women? Where are the evil women? Where are the helpless, scared, rude, contemptible, dishonest, wise, funny, cunning women? Rey is one-dimensional, flawless and boring.

Try watching Killing Eve, Moana, Frozen, Jessica Jones, Insecure, She's Gotta Have It, Dear White People etc. if anything, there's more diversity among female leads than there's ever been before.

People love the original SW trilogy because it said something more about the human condition...every woman I know much prefers Luke over Rey, by miles, because he was relatable. People relate to characters they can identify with, but the issue now is that the social justice identitarians believe that no one can identify with characters that don't match the viewers race, sex or sexual preference. They're wrong, that's why Episodes 7-8 turned out as they did.

Here's the thing about relatability; it depends on the person. Some people will relate to Luke more than Rey and others will relate to Rey more than Luke. Because everyone's experiences are different in amny ways. Just because Rey isn't like Luke doesn't mean she isn't relatable and plenty of women like Rey just fine. Some even like both her and Luke. Shocking I know.

Abomination:
She's a SCAVENGER, not a mechanic. She takes things apart, that doesn't mean she knows how to put them back together.

How old is Rey in the movies, like 20? And she's been on that planet since like the age 5? I would assume 15 years of taking machinery apart, something I would guess needs to be done delicately so as not to destroy the components, would give one a very good sense on how machinery fits together. Hence why she would also probably know how to put them back together.

Asita:
The latter, however, is Oneness.

You mean the one where Luke asks if it controls your actions, and Obi-Wan says partially, but it also obeys your commands? The exact thing I was referencing? Yes, I'm familiar with the scene. It's sort of like the idea of lketing go has been baked into Star Wars since the seventies or something.

Abomination:
Every other Jedi, before Rey, has required some sort of mentor or to at least have partaken in some kind of practice.

Prior to Episode IV, all the Force was used for was mind tricks on the weak minded.
Prior to Episode VI, no Force user had ever had a lightning power. Also, this is the first mention of the Force being hereditary.
Prior to the prequels, Jedi didn't flip around like monkeys.
In the prequels, Ani was already a Force user by the time he found a mentor.

For some reason Rey is so special that she did not need to do this.

The stable by was able to Accio his Firebolt without training, so I think you're cherry-picking to make it seem like Rey is somehow treated differently, when it's the Force which is treated differently. It's not a broken rule, either way, it's just showing something that traditionally hadn't been. And there was a time when the Doctor had always had blue eyes, which doesn't make blue eyes canon.

By episode VI, the greatest Space Wizard in the Galaxy was a guy who could barely move objects, barely deflect blaster bolts for more than a shot or two, and maybe do a jump. This was the dude who took down Dark Helmet, the tragic fallen Cheddar Monk. By Episode I, all these feats looked ridiculously weak compared to Jedi. Now duct tape face can freeze blaster bolts in midair. Weird how people spend so little time on this, but...

She's a SCAVENGER, not a mechanic. She takes things apart, that doesn't mean she knows how to put them back together.

This is the absurd part. Even though scavengers in the Star Wars Galaxy have traditionally been good with fixing things.

But of course, what utility would there be in scavengers fixing things?

Agent_Z:

Here?s the thing about relatability; it depends on the person. Some people will relate to Luke more than Rey and others will relate to Rey more than Luke. Because everyone?s experiences are different in amny ways. Just because Rey isn?t like Luke doesn?t mean she isn?t relatable and plenty of women like Rey just fine. Some even like both her and Luke. Shocking I know.

Some will look at Kylo Ren, a whiny and entitled fanboy cosplaying as his hero and throwing temper tantrums, see themselves, and not understand why this is a bad thing.

Something Amyss:

Asita:
The latter, however, is Oneness.

You mean the one where Luke asks if it controls your actions, and Obi-Wan says partially, but it also obeys your commands? The exact thing I was referencing? Yes, I'm familiar with the scene. It's sort of like the idea of lketing go has been baked into Star Wars since the seventies or something.

No, that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the Avatar State of Star Wars, when it feels less like you're drawing on the Force than it is that you were the Force and had merged with it. It's when you become maelstrom of Force energy, surrendering your individual personality to the Force and becoming the embodiment of its will. In religious terms it's the difference between detachment and Buddhahood. It's one thing to say that she achieved detachment. It's another thing entirely to say that she achieved Buddhahood. And whatever your intent, you're saying the latter right now, not the former.

Asita:

No, that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the Avatar State of Star Wars, when it feels less like you're drawing on the Force than it is that you were the Force and had merged with it. It's when you become maelstrom of Force energy, surrendering your individual personality to the Force and becoming the embodiment of its will. In religious terms it's the difference between detachment and Buddhahood. It's one thing to say that she achieved detachment. It's another thing entirely to say that she achieved Buddhahood. And whatever your intent, you're saying the latter right now, not the former.

You're making the absolute most extreme interpretation of what I and Altnamejag wrote to get to this critique of it. But both Alt and Amyss are right in that Rey is basically doing in TFA what Luke did in AHN (which is actually a major part of the criticism that it is AHN for the new-10's), she's letting the force guide her so that she can use her weapon better. That is all we are saying, that is all the movie supports and it has precedent in AHN. You just keep hyping it up to something much more extreme because that strawman is much easier to fight.

Agent_Z:
She is not an invincible fighter. Her defeat of Kylo Ren was due to his injuries and impulsiveness. And kind? She sure doesn?t act that way to Finn and BB-8. The only thing that is true here is expert pilot and that applies to every Star Wars film protagonist.

She's flawless, an unbeatable fighter, always right, fixes everything, speaks all languages, master of the force without any training, beats dark jedi and a jedi master, she's a dictionary definition Mary Sue.

Bad male characters rarely, if ever, get this level of backlash and accusations of SJW agenda (unless they?re non-white). And as for ruining Star Wars, I thought the prequels did that?

Prequels did suck. Jar Jar was terrible, midichlorians was a terrible idea, Episode 1 was terrible. And the sad part is they seem like masterpieces compared with 7 and 8. Episode 1 being bad doesn't preclude 7 and 8 from being worse. What is worse is the way they figuratively tore up all previous lore and canon in order to reinvent it for today's kids, alienating everyone else in the process.

This YouTube video draws an interesting analogy with the Catholic church and Star Wars fandom (go with it). I'm not suggesting to take it as gospel (boom tische), just to hear the concept of how the shift from Lucas to Disney and the direction of the new movies have affected the fandom.

As for male characters, consider this review by Hulk Smash of Man of Steel, wherein the reviewer spends thousands of words shredding the film and Superman. And deservedly so and he's not the only one. It was critically panned almost universally, hated by audiences and the DCCU has received little more than scorn for how badly it was handled. Except interestingly for the Wonder Woman movie that rose above the lows of the other awful films to stand tall as only mediocre with some good bits in. A bad film is a bad film, a bad character is a bad character and it has nothing to do with Rey's sex. I'm also quite sure Anakin in the prequels wasn't well liked by most people either.

what conclusion is anyone to make about why Rey is getting singled out?

It's simple. It has nothing to do with sexism. They levelled the same argument for the failures of Ghostbusters 2016 and Oceans 8. (I'll let you in on a secret here. Almost all women would rather watch George Clooney and Brad Pitt than an "all women remake".) And the same again with Star Wars. All one has to do is call anyone critical a racist sexist bigot homophobe and BAM, one can feel morally superior and invalidate all their criticisms! How easy is that!?

What isn't easy is accepting that the characters and movies are bad and people didn't like them. Rey is a terrible character, Rian Johnson is a terrible director who made an awful Star Wars film and has now been fired. Rose was easily the worst part of the film and removing her character and storyline entirely would have made the film better (still not good tho). Their sex and race have nothing to do with it. But perhaps if they stopped putting "diversity" and "strong-female characters" and inclusion and social justice things first, and actually wrote a decent film with relatable characters, it would be a different story...pun intended.

The conclusion is to understand that Rey is a bad character, badly written, badly realised, boring, unrelatable and one-dimensional. I'm fairly sure I didn't even list her sex in that.

The reason for collapsing sales was Marvel?s idiotic business practices. Namely, oversaturation of events, increased prices, poor distribution and over reliance on the direct market.
...
So despite being able to see Thor, Iron Man and Cap in the movies (not to mention the games, t.v. shows and other media) them being temporarily replaced in the comics (one of the oldest traditions in the superhero genre) was too unbearable?

Those are also valid factors, absolutely, but the "diversity" agenda didn't help and alienated swathes of the fandom. And "unbearable" is not the right word...consider this. Video game movie tie ins (eg. Star Wars: BF2) are released alongside the movie, why? So they hope to get more sales while the film is fresh in the minds of the potential buyers. They see the film, look at new games and see the related game on the shelf. Now MCU viewers can't do that. They can watch Cap, Thor and Iron Man, but they can't read their comic books because those characters aren't there. It's idiotic that during the MCU's peak popularity, it's flagship heroes can't be found on store shelves. They fired Axel Alonso for running the business into the ground.

Literally none of these issues apply to Rey. In both of the films she has appeared in, Rey is shown to have faults and insecurities which the villains take advantage of. At one point we even see her running in fear.

She's dictionary definition SFC and Mary Sue.

Some people will relate to Luke more than Rey and others will relate to Rey more than Luke.

Clearly that's not the case because original films are still beloved after 40 years and the new ones are widely disliked. More people, certainly everyone I know, men and women, prefer the original films and characters.

Just because Rey isn?t like Luke doesn?t mean she isn?t relatable

No one suggested that was the case; it has nothing to do with being "like Luke". Taken in a vacuum, she's still awful. She is unrelatable because she's flawless, one-dimensional and the rest I've already gone over above. She's unrelatable in the same way Superman was in Man of Steel. She similarly has no arc at all; she's perfect at the start and she's perfect throughout. She learns nothing, has no character development, doesn't change at all. She's a master at everything from the beginning.

Anyway, I'm beating a dead horse, I've said it all multiple times. The fact Rey's a Mary Sue isn't really a point of debate, it's very apparent. It's also very easy to put people's issues down to sexism instead the fact she and the movies she appeared in were just terribly written and terribly made. Star Wars has been a popular, multi billion franchise for years and Disney haven't done a good job continuing it.

Yes, when i watched TFA Rey did feel "Mary suish" at times. Take away one or two of those scenes where "wow, she just does that" or "wow, she gets aproval of that character in no time" and she'd be fine, but unfortunately those things kinda built up over the course of the movie. That being said it's a small problem with writing(or maybe, pacing), not as bad as other problems with the reboot, and doesn't really break her character as much.
And no, she wasn't nearly as bad as Anakin(for once, she wasn't a twat), and TFA(OR TLJ) don't make prequels retroactively better, gtfo.
Fortunately, Daisy Ridley's performance might been one of the best things about this SW reanimation, and Rey remaining sympathetic is hugely her contribution, despite some problems i had with the script.

Gethsemani:

Asita:

No, that is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the Avatar State of Star Wars, when it feels less like you're drawing on the Force than it is that you were the Force and had merged with it. It's when you become maelstrom of Force energy, surrendering your individual personality to the Force and becoming the embodiment of its will. In religious terms it's the difference between detachment and Buddhahood. It's one thing to say that she achieved detachment. It's another thing entirely to say that she achieved Buddhahood. And whatever your intent, you're saying the latter right now, not the former.

You're making the absolute most extreme interpretation of what I and Altnamejag wrote to get to this critique of it. But both Alt and Amyss are right in that Rey is basically doing in TFA what Luke did in AHN (which is actually a major part of the criticism that it is AHN for the new-10's), she's letting the force guide her so that she can use her weapon better. That is all we are saying, that is all the movie supports and it has precedent in AHN. You just keep hyping it up to something much more extreme because that strawman is much easier to fight.

...I'll be honest, Geth, I'm a bit saddened to learn that you have such a poor opinion of me as that.

If you look back at this conversation you might notice that I've repeatedly alluded to a belief that what people intended was not the same as what they were conveying. That there was a severe difference between the statements "let the Force guide you" and "Let the Force act through you, rather than trying to control it". Much of this conversation has been me trying to explain why those were different. Hell, the very post you're responding to was disputing the implication that Oneness (not what Rey did, the concept of Oneness itself) was described by Obi-Wan in the first film as basic Force Philosophy rather than a pinnacle state.

And the post that Something Amiss was quoting? I drew the same distinction you're making myself. And I quote: "The former's a basic Force ability that would inevitably form the foundation of her training, so while I'd still say that would be bad writing (or at least bad direction) for her to grasp it so suddenly in the heat of a duel with even less guidance than Luke got, it's at least plausible. The latter, however, is Oneness."

I am not above admitting error, Geth, especially when it comes to misreading. I've certainly fallen victim to it before, and in all probability it'll happen again in the future. However, I will thank you not to assume malicious arguing tactics on my part, especially not when my point is "you're invoking concepts you probably don't intend to".

Asita:

I am not above admitting error, Geth, especially when it comes to misreading. I've certainly fallen victim to it before, and in all probability it'll happen again in the future. However, I will thank you not to assume malicious arguing tactics on my part, especially not when my point is "you're invoking concepts you probably don't intend to".

Fair enough, I've been a bit on edge lately and it was not my intention to take it out on you. I'm sorry that I obviously ended up doing so anyway.

Gethsemani:

Asita:

I am not above admitting error, Geth, especially when it comes to misreading. I've certainly fallen victim to it before, and in all probability it'll happen again in the future. However, I will thank you not to assume malicious arguing tactics on my part, especially not when my point is "you're invoking concepts you probably don't intend to".

Fair enough, I've been a bit on edge lately and it was not my intention to take it out on you. I'm sorry that I obviously ended up doing so anyway.

S'alright. It happens to all of us. If I'm being perfectly honest, I probably got a bit testy myself in the course of this thread, and I apologize for that as well.

First off, I'm really upset that the title of this Thread wasn't Ma-Rey Sue.

Secondly, I didn't see the Last Jedi, but I did see the Force Awakens. And I thought it was a decent film. The idea of Finn being a Jedi is more appealing to me, because I think he's funnier and it would have been great to see him trying to reconcile his character into the old Jedi ways.

But I did see this Mary Sue comment come up a lot. And I never understood why.

The Prequels already stated that the Jedis' ability to tap into the Force was dwindling. Part of the reason why some people moved Anakin in faster wasn't just his strength of the Force, but the prophecy that he would bring balance to it. No one knew what that meant, but I believe they thought he would be able to restore it so others could use it like they once did.

And he balanced the hell out of it. Helped kill the Jedi order. To which a handful of Jedi remained. The two recorded top tiers (now that the extended universe was poofed out of existence) being Obi Wan and Yoda.

And speaking about the extended universe not existing, all the Force witches and Force Sensitives are now non-canon. As far as I know (like I said, I didn't see Last Jedi), we just have the Sith and the Jedi.

Obi and Yoda are gone. It's just Luke and Leia, but Leia never trains. Meaning that for a time, only Luke was tapping into the Force. Meaning he was Uber at that time. It is the only plausible reason (other than plot armor) that Luke soaked a Force Lightning blast as long as he did, as one sent Mace Windu (one of the strongest Jedis to ever live) out of a Tower without any hope of resisting.

Maybe the Linege is explained in the Last Jedi, but as far as we know, there are Two Light Side users, and two Dark Side users. And supposedly Luke wasn't using it that much.

So Rey at the time was the conduit of a lot of unused Light Side Force. Yeah, it makes sense that she's powerful. But she's raw power. Which a lot of the movie was showing. So what's the problem?

KingsGambit:
She's flawless, an unbeatable fighter, always right, fixes everything, speaks all languages, master of the force without any training, beats dark jedi and a jedi master, she's a dictionary definition Mary Sue.

You ignoring what I wrote and just yelling. ?Mary Sue? doesn?t make it true.

Prequels did suck. Jar Jar was terrible, midichlorians was a terrible idea, Episode 1 was terrible. And the sad part is they seem like masterpieces compared with 7 and 8. Episode 1 being bad doesn't preclude 7 and 8 from being worse. What is worse is the way they figuratively tore up all previous lore and canon in order to reinvent it for today's kids, alienating everyone else in the process.

Whatever issues the new movies have, there is no universe in which they are worse than the prequels. The new movies may have turned off a few old fans but the prequels made Star Wars a pop cultural joke.

This YouTube video draws an interesting analogy with the Catholic church and Star Wars fandom (go with it). I'm not suggesting to take it as gospel (boom tische), just to hear the concept of how the shift from Lucas to Disney and the direction of the new movies have affected the fandom.

So it?s Disney?s fault a bunch entitled twats decided to harass an actress, commit copyright infringement and just generally make public asses of themselves and embarrass the Star Wars fandom?

As for male characters, consider this review by Hulk Smash of Man of Steel, wherein the reviewer spends thousands of words shredding the film and Superman. And deservedly so and he's not the only one. It was critically panned almost universally, hated by audiences and the DCCU has received little more than scorn for how badly it was handled. Except interestingly for the Wonder Woman movie that rose above the lows of the other awful films to stand tall as only mediocre with some good bits in. A bad film is a bad film, a bad character is a bad character and it has nothing to do with Rey's sex. I'm also quite sure Anakin in the prequels wasn't well liked by most people either.

Putting aside that you?ve greatly exaggerated the backlash to MoS.
1) TFA and TLJ both got great reviews from audiences and critics. It?s a certain segment of the SW fandom that is making hell for the cast and crew.
2) Nobody decided to harass Anakin?s actor for his role. They weren?t crying about how Lucas? SJW politics was ruining SW.

It's simple. It has nothing to do with sexism. They levelled the same argument for the failures of Ghostbusters 2016 and Oceans 8. (I'll let you in on a secret here. Almost all women would rather watch George Clooney and Brad Pitt than an "all women remake".) And the same again with Star Wars. All one has to do is call anyone critical a racist sexist bigot homophobe and BAM, one can feel morally superior and invalidate all their criticisms! How easy is that!?

And I?m sure the harassment Leslie Jones suffered or the fact that both these films had people faced backlash for being female led reboots before a trailer was even dropped doesn?t play any role in the accusations of sexism at all.

What isn't easy is accepting that the characters and movies are bad and people didn't like them. Rey is a terrible character, Rian Johnson is a terrible director who made an awful Star Wars film and has now been fired. Rose was easily the worst part of the film and removing her character and storyline entirely would have made the film better (still not good tho). Their sex and race have nothing to do with it. But perhaps if they stopped putting "diversity" and "strong-female characters" and inclusion and social justice things first, and actually wrote a decent film with relatable characters, it would be a different story...pun intended.

we have reports of the actresses being harassed and pointing out that it was fueled by sexist hatred of their characters.
http://time.com/4438463/daisy-ridley-quits-instagram/
https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/8/21/17763610/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-new-york-times-instagram-harassment
I really do not understand how you can be so blind to this. This is not mere dislike of a character. The accusations of sexism aren?t coming from nowhere. You hating the characters doesn?t make them bad nor does it make the very real sexism they and the actresses have faced any less real.
And Johnson wasn?t fired. They just realized that releasing one SW move per year wasn?t a good idea.

The conclusion is to understand that Rey is a bad character, badly written, badly realised, boring, unrelatable and one-dimensional. I'm fairly sure I didn't even list her sex in that.

No you just called her a Mary Sue and ignored her flaws and weaknesses while giving Luke and Anakin a pass for all the ridiculous crap they pull.

Those are also valid factors, absolutely, but the "diversity" agenda didn't help and alienated swathes of the fandom.

If by swathes, you mean a very loud minority on the internet.

And "unbearable" is not the right word...consider this. Video game movie tie ins (eg. Star Wars: BF2) are released alongside the movie, why? So they hope to get more sales while the film is fresh in the minds of the potential buyers. They see the film, look at new games and see the related game on the shelf. Now MCU viewers can't do that. They can watch Cap, Thor and Iron Man, but they can't read their comic books because those characters aren't there. It's idiotic that during the MCU's peak popularity, it's flagship heroes can't be found on store shelves. They fired Axel Alonso for running the business into the ground.

The vast majority of the people who watch the MCU don?t read nor care what happens in the comics. This is also the second time you?ve misused the word ?fired?.

She's dictionary definition SFC and Mary Sue.

Real strong argument there.

Clearly that's not the case because original films are still beloved after 40 years and the new ones are widely disliked. More people, certainly everyone I know, men and women, prefer the original films and characters.

Yes because your limited circle of friends is clearly reflective of the wider movie viewing audience.

Just because Rey isn?t like Luke doesn?t mean she isn?t relatableNo one suggested that was the case; it has nothing to do with being "like Luke". Taken in a vacuum, she's still awful. She is unrelatable because she's flawless, one-dimensional and the rest I've already gone over above. She's unrelatable in the same way Superman was in Man of Steel. She similarly has no arc at all; she's perfect at the start and she's perfect throughout. She learns nothing, has no character development, doesn't change at all. She's a master at everything from the beginning.

Anyway, I'm beating a dead horse, I've said it all multiple times. The fact Rey's a Mary Sue isn't really a point of debate, it's very apparent. It's also very easy to put people's issues down to sexism instead the fact she and the movies she appeared in were just terribly written and terribly made. Star Wars has been a popular, multi billion franchise for years and Disney haven't done a good job continuing it.

Yeah they did such a terrible job that TLJ was the highest grossing movie of 2017.
At this point, Mary Sue has become so overused it?s lost all meaning.

KingsGambit:
She's flawless, an unbeatable fighter, always right, fixes everything, speaks all languages, master of the force without any training, beats dark jedi and a jedi master, she's a dictionary definition Mary Sue.

What? Did you and I see the same The Last Jedi? In which she's shown to be a deeply insecure person who desperately wants her parents to be some people special so that she isn't just some orphan that got shafted. In which she is easily manipulated by Snoke into thinking she can 'save' Kylo Ren, which ends up nearly killing her and let's Kylo Ren take control over the First Order. In which she utterly fails to convince Luke to train her and it is only the intervention of R2D2 that makes Luke change his mind. In which Luke continuously chastise her for being reckless and unprepared.

The definition of a Mary Sue is a character around which the entire fiction contorts to make it fit. Rey doesn't stand out more then Anakin or Luke does in that regard, as the idea of the Force essentially makes the protagonist The Chosen One since they are given plot convenient super powers. If we accept the more common "overpowered" version of Mary Sue, she still isn't worse then Luke or Anakin, especially since her entire arc in TLJ is her failing forward without realizing what she's getting herself into (which mimics the later half of Luke's arc in ESB when he goes to Bespin).

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