Fantastic Beasts: The Question of What the Hell I just Saw

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Drathnoxis:

Fantastic Beasts: The Question of What the Hell I just Saw

Obviously the reason you are confused is because it's about Lord of the Rings. Judging by this thread anyway.

I don't care for Lord of the Rings at all. I read the book, I've seen the movies, but I have zero interest in reading or watching anything else set in that world. Gave up on the Silmarillion less than halfway through.

Not because there's anything wrong with Tolkien, I really respect what he did for fantasy, but I just don't enjoy that stuff at all. Chances are, I'm the problem here.

PsychedelicDiamond:
Gave up on the Silmarillion less than halfway through.

Most people do that though.

Specter Von Baren:

Samtemdo8:

Also its difficult for me to answer your Lovecraft question because to be honest I have yet to read any of Lovecraft's works of the Cthulhu Mythos myself, only third hand accounts of it from Youtubers. But to answer each:

Might I suggest giving, 'The Color Out of Space' a try? I feel that it's probably one of the best of his works and best encapsulates everything you might want from one of his stories. If you don't like that one then I think you can safely say that the rest won't appeal to you.

So far I am under the impression that of the Cthulhu Mythos stories, Shadow over Insmouth was Lovecraft's magnum opus?

I mean its the primary setting for Dark Corners of the Earth.

Samtemdo8:

Specter Von Baren:

Samtemdo8:

Also its difficult for me to answer your Lovecraft question because to be honest I have yet to read any of Lovecraft's works of the Cthulhu Mythos myself, only third hand accounts of it from Youtubers. But to answer each:

Might I suggest giving, 'The Color Out of Space' a try? I feel that it's probably one of the best of his works and best encapsulates everything you might want from one of his stories. If you don't like that one then I think you can safely say that the rest won't appeal to you.

So far I am under the impression that of the Cthulhu Mythos stories, Shadow over Insmouth was Lovecraft's magnum opus?

I mean its the primary setting for Dark Corners of the Earth.

People get hung up on A Shadow Over Insmouth too much. While the story is good, it's not how the majority of his work goes. I'd say the only reason people use that setting so much is because it's one of the easiest to turn into a game with tons of fish people in a town to act as enemies.

If I were to describe any of Lovecraft's works as his Magnum Opus then it would either be the 'Dream Cycle' since it seems to have been his most personal story or 'At the Mountains of Madness' which I believe is his longest non-serialized story (Though I could be wrong on this).

'A Color Out of Space' is the one I would say represents the majority of his work due to the otherness of it and things you just can't quite explain or describe.

Samtemdo8:

So far I am under the impression that of the Cthulhu Mythos stories, Shadow over Insmouth was Lovecraft's magnum opus?

I mean its the primary setting for Dark Corners of the Earth.

Shadow over Insmouth is it's most popular story (with Call of Cthulhu as second). Secret cult, strange small town, unsettling inhabitants, immortal beings, semi-human pursuers, incomprehensible God-like entities, and a twist ending. There is a reason those weren't tropes before Lovecraft.

CaitSeith:

Samtemdo8:

So far I am under the impression that of the Cthulhu Mythos stories, Shadow over Insmouth was Lovecraft's magnum opus?

I mean its the primary setting for Dark Corners of the Earth.

Shadow over Insmouth is it's most popular story (with Call of Cthulhu as second). Secret cult, strange small town, unsettling inhabitants, immortal beings, semi-human pursuers, incomprehensible God-like entities, and a twist ending. There is a reason those weren't tropes before Lovecraft.

And because the Deep Ones and Dagon are far more recognizable and memorable then indescribable blobs of tenticles and mass.

Samtemdo8:

And because the Deep Ones and Dagon are far more recognizable and memorable then indescribable blobs of tenticles and mass.

Nyarlathotep better examines perhaps a Great War era sense that the world was going to be cleansed by conflict that Lovecraft lived through and likely inspired much of his ideas of cosmological horrors beyond the mind to process their inhuman dimensions and raw chaos.

It's also a shorter read. Also sans tentacles and the like.

Though the Dream Cycle has more than enough contemplations of the nakedly monstrous. As does At the Mountains of Madness.

Nyarlathotep is rather ... it feels like a weird-science revelation event that is simply one of many at the end of the world no one truly wishes to contemplate just over the horizon, and thus because they do not strive to internalize its dimensions similarly fall prey to it. Perhaps more mercifully, perhaps not.

They did adapt Nyarlathotep for the silver screen.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

And because the Deep Ones and Dagon are far more recognizable and memorable then indescribable blobs of tenticles and mass.

Nyarlathotep better examines perhaps a Great War era sense that the world was going to be cleansed by conflict that Lovecraft lived through and likely inspired much of his ideas of cosmological horrors beyond the mind to process their inhuman dimensions and raw chaos.

It's also a shorter read. Also sans tentacles and the like.

Though the Dream Cycle has more than enough contemplations of the nakedly monstrous. As does At the Mountains of Madness.

Nyarlathotep is rather ... it feels like a weird-science revelation event that is simply one of many at the end of the world no one truly wishes to contemplate just over the horizon, and thus because they do not strive to internalize its dimensions similarly fall prey to it. Perhaps more mercifully, perhaps not.

I am well aware of Nyarlarthotep thank you and honestly I find him the most mary sue of all the gods, and that's saying something since that's there are plenty of compitition, but the fact that he does it because he actual actually care about humans in the sense of wanting to fuck with them for the lulz. I feel it takes away from Cosmic Horror.

Samtemdo8:

I am well aware of Nyarlarthotep thank you and honestly I find him the most mary sue of all the gods, and that's saying something since that's there are plenty of compitition, but the fact that he does it because he actual actually care about humans in the sense of wanting to fuck with them for the lulz. I feel it takes away from Cosmic Horror.

Mary sue? How can a Lovecraftian god be a Mary Sue?

For starters, Nyarlathotep is a short story about said 'man of the Pharaohs' ... and in the short story the narrator himself angers Nyarlathotep leading to the story's final revelation at the end of the world.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

I am well aware of Nyarlarthotep thank you and honestly I find him the most mary sue of all the gods, and that's saying something since that's there are plenty of compitition, but the fact that he does it because he actual actually care about humans in the sense of wanting to fuck with them for the lulz. I feel it takes away from Cosmic Horror.

Mary sue? How can a Lovecraftian god be a mary sue?

For starters, Nyarlathotep is a short story about said 'man of the Pharaohs' ... and in the short story the narrator himself angers Nyarlathotep leading to the story's final revelation at the end of the world.

This guy explains the larger story of him and stuff written not from Lovecraft himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYEBQJoz1_c

Samtemdo8:

This guy explains the larger story of him and stuff written not from Lovecraft himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYEBQJoz1_c

Do you take all your opinions from youtube without actually reading their sources? Seriously, he is anything but a Mary Sue. If anything the narrator in Nyarlathotep is the only 'Mary Sue' because he was amongst the few to handwave Nyarlathotep and piss him off.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

This guy explains the larger story of him and stuff written not from Lovecraft himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYEBQJoz1_c

Do you take all your opinions from youtube without actually reading their sources? Seriously, he is anything but a Mary Sue. If anything the narrator in Nyarlathotep is the only 'Mary Sue' because he was amongst the few to handwave Nyarlathotep and piss him off.

Well Nyarlarthotep is certainly something if Mary Sue is not the right word. There is something about the description of him that does not sit right with me.

Lets just say I prefer Azathoth over Nyarlarthotep in terms of scaryness and yet intriguing lore.

Samtemdo8:

Well Nyarlarthotep is certainly something if Mary Sue is not the right word. There is something about the description of him that does not sit right with me.

Lets just say I prefer Azathoth over Nyarlarthotep in terms of scaryness and yet intriguing lore.

It is literally just 3-4 pages of 10 font worth of story. You can read it in 4 minutes. Do this, get back to me.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

Well Nyarlarthotep is certainly something if Mary Sue is not the right word. There is something about the description of him that does not sit right with me.

Lets just say I prefer Azathoth over Nyarlarthotep in terms of scaryness and yet intriguing lore.

It is literally just 3-4 pages of 10 font worth of story. You can read it in 4 minutes. Do this, get back to me.

Is it on Creepypasta wikia? Because that website has both Call of Cthulhu and Shadow over Insmouth in thier entirety?

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Call_of_Cthulhu

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth

Samtemdo8:

Is it on Creepypasta wikia? Because that website has both Call of Cthulhu and Shadow over Insmouth in thier entirety?

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Call_of_Cthulhu

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth

For starters Nyarlathotep (1920) can be found here...

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/n.aspx

Believe it or not, not the shortest of his stories.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

Is it on Creepypasta wikia? Because that website has both Call of Cthulhu and Shadow over Insmouth in thier entirety?

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Call_of_Cthulhu

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth

For starters Nyarlathotep (1920) can be found here...

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/n.aspx

Believe it or not, not the shortest of his stories.

"I remember when Nyarlathotep came to my city-the great, the old, the terrible city of unnumbered crimes."

Now I know where exactly you got that one from Warcraft:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ny%27alotha

"Ny'alotha is a city of old, terrible, unnumbered crimes..."

Upon thinking about it, I think the ACTUAL reason 'A Shadow Over Insmouth' is the most talked about of Lovecraft's works is because it's the easiest to turn into a more typical story.

What I mean by that is, look at Dark Corners of the Earth and how it focuses on Insmouth. It is the only story of Lovecraft's that I can think of that, when turned into a video-game, is not part of the 'walking-simulator' genre. Because it's the only one that has any real action moments about it and the enemy is so easy to turn into killable things unlike a Shoggoth or Mi-Go would be.

As to Nyarlathotep being a Mary-Su.... Uh.... no? Whatever writers are doing with Nya is just usual fandom stuff, in the stories he's just one of many mentioned dark beings outside of the Dream Cycle where he has more of an antagonist role at point in the story. People just like to make Nya a big deal because, again, they are one of the most easily understood and digestible of Lovecraft's creations.

Anybody else find Queenie's motivations questionable and don't make any sense?

Natemans:
Anybody else find Queenie's motivations questionable and don't make any sense?

Pretty much.

Her joining Grindlewald isn't inherently a bad idea narratively-speaking, but like so many plots in the film, it's underbaked.

Hawki:

Natemans:
Anybody else find Queenie's motivations questionable and don't make any sense?

Pretty much.

Her joining Grindlewald isn't inherently a bad idea narratively-speaking, but like so many plots in the film, it's underbaked.

I feel it CAN be explained very well with things that she's experienced (I'm just saying my feelings here) but the movie has so much ground to cover that it can't give her more time. I thought it was a little weak but did still feel it wasn't completely out of left field.

Natemans:
Anybody else find Queenie's motivations questionable and don't make any sense?

Yep. Genuinely baffled why they decided "This character loves a muggle, so lets have her side with the guy who wants to obliterate most muggles and leave the ones that remains as beasts of burden" was anything but nonsense

Is JK Rowling perhaps incapable of making her creations have continuous in-universe logic? Like, wasn't she literally making it up as a bed-time story for her kids? Maybe logical consistency is something that just isn't a feature of the Potterverse.

Kwak:
Is JK Rowling perhaps incapable of making her creations have continuous in-universe logic? Like, wasn't she literally making it up as a bed-time story for her kids? Maybe logical consistency is something that just isn't a feature of the Potterverse.

Well that went out the window after the Death Eaters started attacking Muggle London. Mainly a movie thing, because the movies are all very much a post 9/11 world where the novels were less obviously so. So after that happened it stretched credulity that Voldemort and co. didn't find themselves knee-deep in shell casing and suffering terminal cases of lead poisoning by the end of the week.

Gordon_4:

Well that went out the window after the Death Eaters started attacking Muggle London. Mainly a movie thing, because the movies are all very much a post 9/11 world where the novels were less obviously so. So after that happened it stretched credulity that Voldemort and co. didn't find themselves knee-deep in shell casing and suffering terminal cases of lead poisoning by the end of the week.

The novels take place mainly in the period of 1990 to '98. Far as I'm aware, the movies do as well.

But even if that's the case, if the movies have shown us anything, it's that wizards are pretty much on god mode compared to Muggles, given how easy it is to apparate and use charms/curses. Wizards/witches seem to be a bit toned down in the books, but even then, if Voldemort was really given free reign, chances are he could bring the United Kingdom to its knees pretty easily. After all, he has dementors, and Muggles can't defend themselves against them. They can't even see them.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

snip

snip

This is a continuation of our Lord of the Rings discussion since I can't PM you.

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

Samtemdo8:

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

You think the writers are going to worry about one author crying foul about racism against an imaginary species?

Think you're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

You think the writers are going to worry about one author crying foul about racism against an imaginary species?

Think you're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

Its more about the whole controversy that spawned from that one author since a whole bunch of news sites reported on this. And I worry abotu the message this controversy will send.

Samtemdo8:

Its more about the whole controversy that spawned from that one author since a whole bunch of news sites reported on this. And I worry abotu the message this controversy will send.

From what I can tell from a quick search, people are pretty incredulous about the idea. I'm not even sure if the author's being serious.

Thing is, with the original depiction of orcs, you can point out racist overtones if you're so inclined, but no visual adaptation of LotR I can think of has ever depicted orcs as black skinned with red lips or whatnot. So that aside, orcs in LotR are orcs - they're evil. They exist to be killed by the good guys.

And even if the TV series bombs, I'm not too worried. Lord of the Rings already has a stellar adaptation, a sub-par one won't tarnish its legacy.

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:

Its more about the whole controversy that spawned from that one author since a whole bunch of news sites reported on this. And I worry abotu the message this controversy will send.

From what I can tell from a quick search, people are pretty incredulous about the idea. I'm not even sure if the author's being serious.

Thing is, with the original depiction of orcs, you can point out racist overtones if you're so inclined, but no visual adaptation of LotR I can think of has ever depicted orcs as black skinned with red lips or whatnot. So that aside, orcs in LotR are orcs - they're evil. They exist to be killed by the good guys.

And even if the TV series bombs, I'm not too worried. Lord of the Rings already has a stellar adaptation, a sub-par one won't tarnish its legacy.

I am just worried this may set back a Silmarillion Adaption by 50 years.

Samtemdo8:

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

You think the writers are going to worry about one author crying foul about racism against an imaginary species?

Think you're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

Its more about the whole controversy that spawned from that one author since a whole bunch of news sites reported on this. And I worry abotu the message this controversy will send.

It's a really valid complaint, you know. This isn't just an excuse to bitch about Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was an intelligent and educated man. He vocally rejected Apartheid long before it was abolished. But that doesn'the mean any criticism about Lord of the Rings should be dismissed on principle. Tolkien depicted Middle Earth's various races in ways obviously inspired by real human cultures. And he chose Orcs, a species of designated evil henchmen, in a way reminiscent of how people in Tolkien's days envisioned various primitive tribal cultures. Why do you think rightists still use them for their shitty memes about migration?

That doesn't make Tolkien a racist or LotR a work of reactionary propaganda. But it'd be a major mistake for anyone adapting his work to ignore these implications and never address them. There are literally hundreds of hacky fantasy writers just copying Tolkien's races verbatimely without ever thinking about their implications. Or, even worse, doubling down on them and just turning them into unambiguous stereotypes of real human cultures. The Elder Scrolls series gets pretty close to that sometimes.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Samtemdo8:

Hawki:

You think the writers are going to worry about one author crying foul about racism against an imaginary species?

Think you're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

Its more about the whole controversy that spawned from that one author since a whole bunch of news sites reported on this. And I worry abotu the message this controversy will send.

It's a really valid complaint, you know. This isn't just an excuse to bitch about Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was an intelligent and educated man. He vocally rejected Apartheid long before it was abolished. But that doesn'the mean any criticism about Lord of the Rings should be dismissed on principle. Tolkien depicted Middle Earth's various races in ways obviously inspired by real human cultures. And he chose Orcs, a species of designated evil henchmen, in a way reminiscent of how people in Tolkien's days envisioned various primitive tribal cultures. Why do you think rightists still use them for their shitty memes about migration?

That doesn't make Tolkien a racist or LotR a work of reactionary propaganda. But it'd be a major mistake for anyone adapting his work to ignore these implications and never address them. There are literally hundreds of hacky fantasy writers just copying Tolkien's races verbatimely without ever thinking about their implications. Or, even worse, doubling down on them and just turning them into unambiguous stereotypes of real human cultures. The Elder Scrolls series gets pretty close to that sometimes.

How do you address it then?, because there are no Orcs in Middle Earth acts in anyway like say Thrall from Warcraft:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H-thX7BUz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1SdVC2mrz8

Samtemdo8:

I am just worried this may set back a Silmarillion Adaption by 50 years.

There's plenty going against a Silmarillion adaptation already.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Tolkien depicted Middle Earth's various races in ways obviously inspired by real human cultures.

No, not really. The human cultures are obviously inspired to some extent from real and imaginary cultures (e.g. Numenor = Atlantis), but what real-world culture do elves come from? Dwarves? Goblins (as distinct from orcs)? Ents? A lot of these things already existed in folklore before LotR. Hobbits are a key exception (Shire = England), but even then, in-universe, hobbits are implied to be an offshoot of Men.

There are literally hundreds of hacky fantasy writers just copying Tolkien's races verbatimely without ever thinking about their implications.

Except, what implications? What implications can you get from elves and dwarves and goblins that weren't already there in the original folklore?

Also, implications can be generally taken from anything. FFS, I've seen My Little Pony discussed in the context of immigration.

If we're talking Or, even worse, doubling down on them and just turning them into unambiguous stereotypes of real human cultures. The Elder Scrolls series gets pretty close to that sometimes.

Even if we're talking about orcs, any implications are usually tossed aside. Orc culture in LotR is effectively defined as "the lack of culture." They're artificial creatures created to serve a dark lord. There's no real-world equivalent to that, and when orcs are transported into other fantasy works, they're rarely depicted visually in the way the books describe. So either you can get:

-Orcs = Orcs (e.g. Warhammer)

-Our Orcs are Different (e.g. Warcraft)

-Orcs in All But Name (e.g. Wheel of Time)

I'm not going to list every fantasy setting that has orcs, or a stand-in for orcs, but usually they'd fall into one of these three categories. And by extension, those races rarely correspond to any real-world culture because in scenarios 1 and 3, orcs/not-orcs don't have any real culture at all.

That's the thing about orcs. Like zombies, you can use them as morally umambiguous enemies without having to worry about all the stuff you'd have to consider if you had, say, humans as enemies.

Hawki:

Gordon_4:

Well that went out the window after the Death Eaters started attacking Muggle London. Mainly a movie thing, because the movies are all very much a post 9/11 world where the novels were less obviously so. So after that happened it stretched credulity that Voldemort and co. didn't find themselves knee-deep in shell casing and suffering terminal cases of lead poisoning by the end of the week.

The novels take place mainly in the period of 1990 to '98. Far as I'm aware, the movies do as well.

But even if that's the case, if the movies have shown us anything, it's that wizards are pretty much on god mode compared to Muggles, given how easy it is to apparate and use charms/curses. Wizards/witches seem to be a bit toned down in the books, but even then, if Voldemort was really given free reign, chances are he could bring the United Kingdom to its knees pretty easily. After all, he has dementors, and Muggles can't defend themselves against them. They can't even see them.

IDK. Invading a country isn't merely an argument of individual sophistication of the individual occupying soldiery. It does come down to a sheer capability to manage an occupation. There simply isn't enough wizards to have a wizard on every intersection, there isn't enough wizards to simply handle the bureaucracy inherent.

If wizards were on Godmode, they wouldn't be hiding from the world. Moreover, their societies wouldn't look like late 18th, early 19th century hellholes.

Say what you like, a wizard like Harry Potter will die from a bullet. There's no indication he's somehow immune to lead injections. Honestly, I don't see why the UK government doesn't just smuggle high explosive devices into Diagon Alley and claim the explosions were just 'meddlesome magic'. It's what I would do. Wizards invaded London, likely killed scores of people (in the movies the death count would have to be in the high hundreds, if not almost a thousand) ... they have routinely proven themselves inept at controlling the situation. If they won't get their shit together, I'd force them to, or kill many of them trying.

Plus I would make the moral argument that any society that allows something like an Azkaban Prison is probably a society that shouldn't exist and is an incredibly dangerous one to suffer its persistence.

The Potterverse isn't exactly something that fits into a modern setting, precisely because Harry Potter being from the 'Muggle' world simply serves to be escapism fuel for a young reader who might otherwise be perturbed by a high fantasy setting entirely alien from our own. Sure, being a 'Muggle' serves as a plot contrivance of why 'Voldemort is bad' ... but then again, it's never really explained why. Wizards are fucking idiots.

I'll take not being able to use magic if when going to war someone hands me an F88 and modern military communications and command hierarchy rather than a piece of willow and .... mmmmmhrmmmhrmmmm? Basicallyt if the most advanced communications wizards are capable of is amassing in a circle and wearing masks to protect their identities, I feel like it's going to be a very short war between Muggles and wizards.

Not only that, but I fail to see why parents would send their kids to a place like Hogwart's to begin with. I mean it's child abuse by proxy.

And of course the answer to that is simple... it's not important. The idea of the Potterverse existing coterminous with our mundane reality is simply that it's easier for young readers to digest and less alienating to them than something like Forgotten Realms. Even in terms of other high fantasy settngs set for kids, there's obligatory 'parallels' that serve as communicating pop culture symbolism and social constructs that they've likely internalized by adjuncts to our own world.

Like something as innocuous as a Godzilla reference ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO5h4qj2rJk

I get that Harry Potter isn't technically high fantasy given that it's supposed to be happening in our world and time, but when the world of 'Muggles' just serves as a literal contrast in the same way popularized constructs of Western Medievalism (that were birthed by romanticism born in the 16th and 17th centuries no less) serve to ground things like Lord of the Rings... the existence of the contrasting element is not important.

Samtemdo8:

This is a continuation of our Lord of the Rings discussion since I can't PM you.

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

I missed this ... sorru, how is this persuant to our discussion? Tolkien's ideas of orcs were stupid and pointless. They were non-descriptive. Tolkien's ideas of orcs from that single letter unattached to the fiction he wrote altogether could not be emulated without;

A: Merely interspacing your own ideas of 'racial beauty'.
B: Being blatantly wrong.

And when I say blatantly wrong it is entirely that. From that whole two sentences he describes orcs would be impossible and highlight merely the casting producers and agents own racial prejudices trying. It is a moot point because it would be nothing but racist. Once again, I'm going to ask based on Tolkien's descriptors how you would hold a casting call for orcs. And whatever answer you gave would be blatantly wrong.

LotR orcs are precisely fine as they are in all the works that have adapted them. Green skinned, pasty grey, etc ... they do not need racist charicatures born from a person's own racial prejudices they imagine.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

This is a continuation of our Lord of the Rings discussion since I can't PM you.

But you see this, this is exactly why I dread the upcoming Amazon LOTR show, because I worry the creators (who were writers for Star Trek Beyond) will take this news and the controversy that came out of it to heart in the development of their show:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6428971/Science-Fiction-writer-claims-Lord-Rings-series-racist.html

I missed this ... sorru, how is this persuant to our discussion? Tolkien's ideas of orcs were stupid and pointless. They were non-descriptive. Tolkien's ideas of orcs from that single letter unattached to the fiction he wrote altogether could not be emulated without;

A: Merely interspacing your own ideas of 'racial beauty'.
B: Being blatantly wrong.

And when I say blatantly wrong it is entirely that. From that whole two sentences he describes orcs would be impossible and highlight merely the casting producers and agents own racial prejudices trying. It is a moot point because it would be nothing but racist. Once again, I'm going to ask based on Tolkien's descriptors how you would hold a casting call for orcs. And whatever answer you gave would be blatantly wrong.

LotR orcs are precisely fine as they are in all the works that have adapted them. Green skinned, pasty grey, etc ... they do not need racist charicatures born from a person's own racial prejudices they imagine.

I admit I even dislike how Orcs looked like in the actual LOTR movie, barring few exceptions, like the Uruk Hai Orcs under Saruman look far more "Orc-y" for me then other Orcs in the movie from Mordor which to me look like a bunch of goblins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgXPRxmHk6Q

Question though, do you find this particular painting of a Middle Earth Orc a racist one?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Frithjof_Spangenberg_-_Orc.jpg

This one was from Tolkien Gateway's art gallery.

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