Fantastic Beasts: The Question of What the Hell I just Saw

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Samtemdo8:

I admit I even dislike how Orcs looked like in the actual LOTR movie, barring few exceptions, like the Uruk Hai Orcs under Saruman look far more "Orc-y" for me then other Orcs in the movie from Mordor which to me look like a bunch of goblins:

For starters, orcs are bow legged and somewhat shorter. Uruk-Hai were a special breed that 'walked straight like stout menfolk'. Your idea of orcs is precisely because that's how other works have adapted them.

Question though, do you find this particular painting of a Middle Earth Orc a racist one?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Frithjof_Spangenberg_-_Orc.jpg

This one was from Tolkien Gateway's art gallery.

Not particularly, mainly because I don't know what the artist was actually trying to communicate. It could be any one of an incarnation of adapted works of 'orcs' throughout time.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

I admit I even dislike how Orcs looked like in the actual LOTR movie, barring few exceptions, like the Uruk Hai Orcs under Saruman look far more "Orc-y" for me then other Orcs in the movie from Mordor which to me look like a bunch of goblins:

For starters, orcs are bow legged and somewhat shorter. Uruk-Hai were a special breed that 'walked straight like stout menfolk'. Your idea of orcs is precisely because that's how other works have adapted them.

Question though, do you find this particular painting of a Middle Earth Orc a racist one?

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Frithjof_Spangenberg_-_Orc.jpg

This one was from Tolkien Gateway's art gallery.

Not particularly, mainly because I don't know what the artist was actually trying to communicate. It could be any one of an incarnation of adapted works of 'orcs' throughout time.

And you can easily have this painting of this Orc with pale, pink, brown, or greenskin. But to me this is still how I imagine Orcs in Middle Earth should look like.

Its the protruding tusks you see. Without that, you are just a beefy human with unsuall skin tones.

Samtemdo8:

And you can easily have this painting of this Orc with pale, pink, brown, or greenskin. But to me this is still how I imagine Orcs in Middle Earth should look like.

.... Wait a minute, first you were complaining that people like Jackson didn't translate 'orcs' well because of a blatantly racist charicature of people on Earth ... but now you're complaining when they do decide to keep various vagaries of their descriptors like how they were bow-legged, impish things that scuttled in dark places?

Its the protruding tusks you see. Without that, you are just a beefy human with unsuall skin tones.

'Orc' means a whole lot of things in LotR. It isn't just one group of monstrous hominid-like beings. I mean 'trolls' (Olog-Hai) are sometimes called 'orcs'.

'Orc' is to your idea of them what 'Hominid' is to our idea of humans.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

And you can easily have this painting of this Orc with pale, pink, brown, or greenskin. But to me this is still how I imagine Orcs in Middle Earth should look like.

.... Wait a minute, first you were complaining that people like Jackson didn't translate 'orcs' well because of a blatantly racist charicature of people on Earth ... but now you're complaining when they do decide to keep various vagaries of their descriptors like how they were bow-legged, impish things that scuttled in dark places?

Its the protruding tusks you see. Without that, you are just a beefy human with unsuall skin tones.

'Orc' means a whole lot of things in LotR. It isn't just one group of monstrous hominid-like beings. I mean 'trolls' (Olog-Hai) are sometimes called 'orcs'.

'Orc' is to your idea of them what 'Hominid' is to our idea of humans.

Ok let me try my best to untangle this WHOLE thing and I am saying this with 100% honesty.

I am not a fan of depictions of Orcs in Middle Earth as seen in the movies and the Shadow of Mordor games because none of them look like the Orcs I am familiar with in settings like Warcraft, Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, and Dungeons and Dragons. And I would not mind if the Amazon TV show makes the Orcs look like consistant variation of these:

https://i.redd.it/zqnkgp9jayvz.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/43/Orc-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171010153900

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1c/Legends_Orc.png/revision/latest?cb=20150619004929

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140972/3534011-orcorc.jpg

But I still want them be portrayed as the evil horde they were conceieved as, not one ounce of symphathy or morally grey orcs at all. Tolkien's Orcs are evil henchmen armies under the thrall of an evil Dark Lord.

They were Elves originally but irreversably corrupted by Morgoth into Orcs and Goblins.

Samtemdo8:

Ok let me try my best to untangle this WHOLE thing and I am saying this with 100% honesty.

I am not a fan of depictions of Orcs in Middle Earth as seen in the movies and the Shadow of Mordor games because none of them look like the Orcs I am familiar with in settings like Warcraft, Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, and Dungeons and Dragons. And I would not mind if the Amazon TV show makes the Orcs look like consistant variation of these:

https://i.redd.it/zqnkgp9jayvz.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/43/Orc-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171010153900

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1c/Legends_Orc.png/revision/latest?cb=20150619004929

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140972/3534011-orcorc.jpg

But I still want them be portrayed as the evil horde they were conceieved as, not one ounce of symphathy or morally grey orcs at all. Tolkien's Orcs are evil henchmen armies under the thrall of an evil Dark Lord.

They were Elves originally but irreversably corrupted by Morgoth into Orcs and Goblins.

But that's not how they were described in the books. In the books Frodo and Sam managed to disquise themselves and enter Mordor precisely because a 'large orc warchief' was still smaller than your average human. I've been recently playing Shadow of War, and I like the fact that many of the 'captains' are pretty all over the place. Some are weasly, some are your size and stature, others taller.

That being said, Jackson's interpretation is closer to the source material than all your preconceptions. Precisely because, as you say, they're visually more menacing. Even Shady-Mordy/Shady-War-y take liberties precisely to increase the visual tension of Sir Murdersalot is more often than not alone and facing two or three captains at once in brutal extended melee combats... and a lot of that tension is directly harnassed by that preconception of size = threat.

Precisely because Saruman's Uruks of Isengard are on a whole a different breed to Morgoth's warhost.

It's actually one of the biggest things that I dislike about Tolkien's 'legacy' is the fact that other producrs of content have arguably done more for and with concepts of high fantasy than Tolkien would have ever imagined or been willing to... and yet people pretend as if he was as if some literary great because ... why?

Most people at least admit that Lovecraft wasn't all that good, and it's more his ideas concerning humanity's relationship to (and meaninglessness in the face of) an unknowable future and cosmos. Rather than, you know, what he personally contributed in terms of his craft.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Samtemdo8:

Ok let me try my best to untangle this WHOLE thing and I am saying this with 100% honesty.

I am not a fan of depictions of Orcs in Middle Earth as seen in the movies and the Shadow of Mordor games because none of them look like the Orcs I am familiar with in settings like Warcraft, Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, and Dungeons and Dragons. And I would not mind if the Amazon TV show makes the Orcs look like consistant variation of these:

https://i.redd.it/zqnkgp9jayvz.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/43/Orc-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171010153900

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1c/Legends_Orc.png/revision/latest?cb=20150619004929

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140972/3534011-orcorc.jpg

But I still want them be portrayed as the evil horde they were conceieved as, not one ounce of symphathy or morally grey orcs at all. Tolkien's Orcs are evil henchmen armies under the thrall of an evil Dark Lord.

They were Elves originally but irreversably corrupted by Morgoth into Orcs and Goblins.

But that's not how they were described in the books. In the books Frodo and Sam managed to disquise themselves and enter Mordor precisely because a 'large orc warchief' was still smaller than your average human. I've been recently playing Shadow of War, and I like the fact that many of the 'captains' are pretty all over the place. Some are weasly, some are your size and stature, others taller.

That being said, Jackson's interpretation is closer to the source material than all your preconceptions. Precisely because, as you say, they're visually more menacing. Even Shady-Mordy/Shady-War-y take liberties precisely to increase the visual tension of Sir Murdersalot is more often than not alone and facing two or three captains at once in brutal extended melee combats... and a lot of that tension is directly harnassed by that preconception of size = threat.

Precisely because Saruman's Uruks of Isengard are on a whole a different breed to Morgoth's warhost.

It's actually one of the biggest things that I dislike about Tolkien's 'legacy' is the fact that other producrs of content have arguably done more for and with concepts of high fantasy than Tolkien would have ever imagined or been willing to... and yet people pretend as if he was as if some literary great because ... why?

Most people at least admit that Lovecraft wasn't all that good, and it's more his ideas concerning humanity's relationship to (and meaninglessness in the face of) an unknowable future and cosmos. Rather than, you know, what he personally contributed in terms of his craft.

Well at the very least I wanna see an Orc that looks like Garrosh Hellscream or Grimgor Ironhide in Middle Earth.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

IDK. Invading a country isn't merely an argument of individual sophistication of the individual occupying soldiery. It does come down to a sheer capability to manage an occupation. There simply isn't enough wizards to have a wizard on every intersection, there isn't enough wizards to simply handle the bureaucracy inherent.

Except wizarding society manages to function without having to rely on Muggles.

Like, okay, if wizards wanted to enslave Muggles, the slavemasters would be outnumbered by the slaves many times over, but if your (in this case Grindlewald's) plan involves genocide of the majority of Muggles, the issue kinda solves itself. Muggle society is erradicated. Wizard society thrives. What few Muggles are left are a non-issue.

Say what you like, a wizard like Harry Potter will die from a bullet. There's no indication he's somehow immune to lead injections.

Yeah, sure, but consider everything a wizard can do to stop or evade the bullet.

Honestly, I don't see why the UK government doesn't just smuggle high explosive devices into Diagon Alley and claim the explosions were just 'meddlesome magic'.

They'd have to actually be able to find it first.

Plus I would make the moral argument that any society that allows something like an Azkaban Prison is probably a society that shouldn't exist and is an incredibly dangerous one to suffer its persistence.

Oh, I'm not doubting that. Wizarding society is pretty draconian in a lot of ways, what with how Harry's trial progresses, not to mention that casualties seem to be a thing on a semi-irregular basis (e.g. the Triziard Tournaments).

The Potterverse isn't exactly something that fits into a modern setting, precisely because Harry Potter being from the 'Muggle' world simply serves to be escapism fuel for a young reader who might otherwise be perturbed by a high fantasy setting entirely alien from our own. Sure, being a 'Muggle' serves as a plot contrivance of why 'Voldemort is bad' ... but then again, it's never really explained why. Wizards are fucking idiots.

Um...

Okay, I don't get why timeframe is that relevant to the Potterverse. You could apply the same story to the modern day easily.

Also, Voldemort is just as bad to fellow wizards as he is to Muggles. Voldemort is bad for a lot of reasons, and has the benefit of characterization as to why he is the way he is.

I'll take not being able to use magic if when going to war someone hands me an F88 and modern military communications and command hierarchy rather than a piece of willow and .... mmmmmhrmmmhrmmmm? Basicallyt if the most advanced communications wizards are capable of is amassing in a circle and wearing masks to protect their identities, I feel like it's going to be a very short war between Muggles and wizards.

If this was a straight out war, sure, but wizards are good at hiding. We're still in Afghanistan, and the Taliban don't have the ability to apparate or cast invisibility spells, or generate magical fire that can't be put out, etc.

Samtemdo8:

I am not a fan of depictions of Orcs in Middle Earth as seen in the movies and the Shadow of Mordor games because none of them look like the Orcs I am familiar with in settings like Warcraft, Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, and Dungeons and Dragons. And I would not mind if the Amazon TV show makes the Orcs look like consistant variation of these:

https://i.redd.it/zqnkgp9jayvz.jpg

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/4/43/Orc-5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171010153900

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/1/1c/Legends_Orc.png/revision/latest?cb=20150619004929

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140972/3534011-orcorc.jpg

First of all, those orc pictures you show aren't even consistent with each other. Second of all, you're aggrieved that orcs don't look like orcs that came after? As in, the original doesn't look like the spin-off?

But anyway, the orcs of LotR are generally meant to be squat and ugly, attacking in hordes and winning through weight of numbers. That's at least implied in the books, and in games such as the tabletop game, Battle for Middle-earth, and various other games, that's the case as well. Does any of that sound like something out of Warcraft for instance, where your average orc is 6-7 feet tall, where orcs win through individual strength rather than weight of numbers?

You can get the occassional Azog, but they're more the exception rather than the rule.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

It's actually one of the biggest things that I dislike about Tolkien's 'legacy' is the fact that other producrs of content have arguably done more for and with concepts of high fantasy than Tolkien would have ever imagined or been willing to... and yet people pretend as if he was as if some literary great because ... why?

In terms of influence in the fantasy genre, I can't think of any author that's had more influence than Tolkien.

That's not a comment on the quality of the works in of themselves, but for better or worse, fantasy tropes can be drawn back to LotR - even if some existed beforehand (elves, dwarfs, goblins, etc.), it set the modern template for them. Now, a lot of fantasy (least in books) has moved away from those tropes in recent decades, but I can't see any evidence of new tropes being created. For instance, ASoIaF is very influential. But how many works have used it as a template in the same way? Even something as influential as Harry Potter was only as influential in that it added to the YA genre, but not many of those series use HP as an actual template (compare something like Hunger Games to Harry Potter for instance) in terms of setting or tropes.

Hawki:

Except wizarding society manages to function without having to rely on Muggles.

Like, okay, if wizards wanted to enslave Muggles, the slavemasters would be outnumbered by the slaves many times over, but if your (in this case Grindlewald's) plan involves genocide of the majority of Muggles, the issue kinda solves itself. Muggle society is erradicated. Wizard society thrives. What few Muggles are left are a non-issue.

Yeah, see, the key about genocide is it needs to be one of two things. Either intentionally slow as to be written off that it's not happening (Saudi occupation of Yemen and starving the entire Western half of the country) or incredibly fast that there can be insufficient time to plan an intervention e.g. Rwandan campaign. Though there is arguments this was a class 'purge' as opposed to ethnic cleansing given that the divides between Hutu and Tutsi are entirely manmade constructs of European colonialism as to artificially stratify the populace.

When the plan involves all of muggles everywhere, such an elabourate scheme can't be slow, nor sufficiently large to be quick ... and all it would take was for one wizard to say; "Uh, various Muggle governments? yeah, you have a problem..." I mean he destroys a whole bunch of things... but frankly world governments seem to be doing next to nothing. After such an attack, people would be beheading wizards left, right and center, and not without good cause, because none of them seem to be actually properly informing authorities about this literal magical, mass murdering tyrant who ranks up there with a Prince Asaka in deserving a firing squad and never actually getting one.

Yeah, sure, but consider everything a wizard can do to stop or evade the bullet.

Assuming they know it's coming. Wizards can swat away spells flung at eachother, doesn't stop them dying to them. Once more, the time period we're talking about is one of world war. Where skilled soldiers exist and the mobilization of economies is sent to gearing and creating militaries from every corner of the Earth to fight air, land and sea.

Sure, wizards can stop a bullet ... questions arise whether they can stop a 14 pounder AT field gun from a kilometre away.

A wizard might be able to strike from anywhere, but it still takes an army to win a war. For every wizard there might be a thousand soldiers. It's kind of like an Order 66 problem of that the Jedis basically allowed a Sithlord to harnass the industrial capacity of three quarters of a galaxy and untold trillions of subjects to create a military to which was visibly to fight the Banking Clans but in truth the mobilization was simply to create an army to which could both meet the Jedi and conquer a galaxy.

It really is a case of there simply isn't enough hours in the day.

Muggles could ostensibly simply outbreed the means by which wizards can match the means to kill them. And if wizards are dedicated to fighting a pitched battle toinflict the heaviest casualties they can, they are setting themselves up to fail ... because all it would take is one soldier to kill one of them for every 100 that may fall. It's kind of like the Battle of Hogwart's ... in order to actually win Voldemort needed his pitched battle. ... and suffice to say, for wizards to win, they're going to need multiples. Each one wearing them down by attrition.

The thing is muggles would win if they merely created a world governing body designed to exterminate any person displaying magical abilities to deny the enemy recruitment. We can simply wait for wizards to die ... all while targeting their friends, their homes, their industries, known associates (muggle or otherwise) ...

They'd have to actually be able to find it first.

All it would take is one wizard to actually become turncoat. Whether because they recognize that the targeted slaughter of muggles is unconscionable, or simply because they are being coerced by ransoming the safety and wellbeing of a muggle or otherwise they are uniquely connected to, or simply because of greed and being offered something in exchange. Such as amnesty for them and their family.

Or, say, how about a family member who has had their child suffer at the hands of other wizards perchance? Maybe they want vengeance on the wizarding world?

The thing is, muggles in the books are incredibly tolerant creatures. After a Paris or a London, I would be quietly orchestrating with world leaders if sufficiently empowered to stage a secret war against wizards. I would have their known associates kidnapped. I would raid their businesses. I would surveil their movements. I would set them up for targeted assassination. I would create secret bureaus that specialize in technologies and training to counter and destroy the 'wizarding threat' ...

And who the fuck would disagree with me fter a Paris or London?

I don't claim to be a nice person, but I certainly don't consider myself as if alien to the world I was brought up in. That being said, muggles in the books and movies seem to be incredibly blaise about the wizrding world. Oh sure, we'll let our kid study at Hogwart's ... what's the mortality rate of students there again? 10%? Oh well, clearly my child should go there.

Letting wizards do their own thing is bad for everybody. They need oversight... and if they aren't willing to create it, muggles aren't bad for forcing it upon them. It's kind of the unicorn problem of MLP's universe. Right up until Cozy Glow, every major, Equestria-ending villain from within the pony population has been unicorns.

Every. Single. One.

I'm thinking Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns is merely a front organization for spying on potential threats. Which would be incredibly plausible if it also didn't house and train some of them.

Wizards seem to be the same way, but then we're meant to pretend as if these hostilities towards muggles come as if from nowhere.

Oh, I'm not doubting that. Wizarding society is pretty draconian in a lot of ways, what with how Harry's trial progresses, not to mention that casualties seem to be a thing on a semi-irregular basis (e.g. the Triziard Tournaments).

Precisely ... I mean if it wasn't Voldemort interrupting the TWC and was, instead, a government agent sent to check 'concerning reports of gladiatorial conflicts' would we necessarily think it was a bad thing? How about instead of a Delores Umbridge it was said government putting Hogwart's on notice for flagrant OH&S violations and failig to observe a basic duty of care within the profession of pedagogy?

What legitimate 'parent' worthy of that title would send their child to such an institution?

If Harry's foster parents were; "Look, Harry. Both your parents died because of these wizards. They weren't even forthright with details to the authorities in order to pursue the case to a close. I lost a sister because of these people, and I don't want to lose my nephew as well. You're all I have to remember them left. And for that reason I never want you to associate with these people. For your own safety, and because of the nefarious circles that have kept you and us from seeking justice for your parent's brutal slaying."

Would that be bad?

Of course not. It's what an actual parent should be.

Um...

Okay, I don't get why timeframe is that relevant to the Potterverse. You could apply the same story to the modern day easily.

Also, Voldemort is just as bad to fellow wizards as he is to Muggles. Voldemort is bad for a lot of reasons, and has the benefit of characterization as to why he is the way he is.

The timeframe is relevant because it cements in the mind of a possible young reader of a character that (at the time) was roughly as old as they were. That it happens in today's world provides additional escapism fuel for the yung reader, rather than reading about a character born in the 'endtimes of the Third Age of Middle-earth'.

Arguably it's the dysjunction between lore-heavy fantasy vs. lore-heavy high fantasy.

MLP gets around this by aping modern superficialities and with stuff happening either now, or most of the background lore centred '1100ish years ago'. Big fight between the three tribes, settlement of Equestria, first Hearth's Warming, a whole lot of bad stuff, Celestia and Luna raise the Sun and the Moon, more bad stuff happens, Celestia raises both Sun and Moon, and 1000 years of 'peace'.

It takes about a page to fill out a chronology of really important stuff, and you can gloss over MLP's lore. High fantasy setting, because it is utterly unassociated with the history of our planet, but not exactly deep with lore. Which is fine... because lore is secondary to character dynamics. I'd rather have good character dynamics rather than 'good' lore. Anybody can make lore. It is the easiest thing in the world to make 'lore' ...as it's pure exposition and nobody expects it to be anything but. It requires no talent beyond memory of other stuff you've written, and it requires no talent for allegory, prose, or pacing.

If this was a straight out war, sure, but wizards are good at hiding. We're still in Afghanistan, and the Taliban don't have the ability to apparate or cast invisibility spells, or generate magical fire that can't be put out, etc.

Hiding is fine with me. In fact that would be my objecive. If I was a hypothetical 'Grand marshal' of a world coalition against wizards, my objective would be to stop wizards operating in plain sight while pursuing them in a shadow conflict. Plenty of soldiers will die, by that's less becoming of my abilities to prosecute a war than if wizards were brazenly and openly targeting cities.

If wizards are left only to their hiding spots, it means I've already won ... it's just a matter of time 'til I capture or destroy the lot of them.

They need to sleep, they need to eat, they have loved ones I can jeopardize, industries I can cripple, recruitment means I can interdict, and they seem very capable of betraying their own... I can use all of these things as well as a world geared up for global conflict at my fingertips to prosecute a sustained campaign of wiping out any organized resistance they might be capable of mustering and spreading terror amongst their ranks.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
When the plan involves all of muggles everywhere, such an elabourate scheme can't be slow, nor sufficiently large to be quick ... and all it would take was for one wizard to say; "Uh, various Muggle governments? yeah, you have a problem..."

This assumes Step One isn't to place the Muggle governments under magical mind control, something Voldemort was absolutely attempting to do in the later books since its mentioned there's members of the Order constantly watching the British Prime Minister for such attempts

Palindromemordnilap:

This assumes Step One isn't to place the Muggle governments under magical mind control, something Voldemort was absolutely attempting to do in the later books since its mentioned there's members of the Order constantly watching the British Prime Minister for such attempts

IDK ... is there enough wizards to do that with every politician out there? Moreover, the Imperius curse can be resisted by people of incredible will. So arguably many of the command structures fighting a war against wizards, suitably driven to the goal of ultimate victory from a personal basis of fighting enslavement, may shrug it off. Plus Imperius ends the second the wizard who cast it dies.

So first of all you need a wizard who can cast the spell, then you have to have said wizard get close, then said victim has to fail to resist it, and the wizard also has to survive the attempt, and you have tens of thousands of targets worldwide. After all, if you're talking a global war, you don't just have one head of state you need to control. Moreovcer, fear of such things may inculcate an environment of immediate prejudice towards any politician that seems to have had a sudden conversion from fighting.

Arguably the most suitable targets would be 3 and 4 star generals ... but then again, many of these people would be suitably powerful minds. Say what you like about the military, it does inculcate an environment of personal strength and conviction. So if anyone were to routinely resist the effects of the spell, it would be these vetted people who are in charge of the active co-ordination of soldiers to destroy the threat.

Compare and contrast that to entirely mundane ways of non-magical brainwashing, and I think muggles have the upper hand in creating sleeper agents. After all, muggles just need to break the mind of one wizard to get to others of their kind for every thousand of commanders and cabinet politicians they have to target in turn.

It really is a 'numbers thing'.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
IDK ... is there enough wizards to do that with every politician out there?

Wouldn't need every politician. Just the right ones. The ones in the right places or that others will follow. In-universe Umbridge was never placed under Imperius, but she was quite happy to follow along with the orders from the guy who was. Hell, look at American politics right now and how Republican politicians seem to skip right along with whatever batshit lunacy Trump is doing this particular week

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Moreover, the Imperius curse can be resisted by people of incredible will. So arguably many of the command structures fighting a war against wizards, suitably driven to the goal of ultimate victory from a personal basis of fighting enslavement, may shrug it off. Plus Imperius ends the second the wizard who cast it dies.

Yeah but in the entire series we've seen precisely one person do that, and he has the advantage of being the protagonist with a suite of built in deus ex machinas helping him out. So I think we're talking about one in a million odds you can shake off a powerful curse like that, and those odds get worse since most people won't have any idea whats happened and won't be sure how to fight it. As the curse is portrayed it works like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones in that it makes you think you absolutely want to go along with what the curse is telling you to do, so who knows if muggles who don't know they've been cursed have any chance at all of resisting it.
Also, whats this "command structure of a war against wizards"? This is step one here, the war hasn't started yet, there is no organising against wizard kind yet.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
So first of all you need a wizard who can cast the spell, then you have to have said wizard get close, then said victim has to fail to resist it, and the wizard also has to survive the attempt, and you have tens of thousands of targets worldwide. After all, if you're talking a global war, you don't just have one head of state you need to control. Moreovcer, fear of such things may inculcate an environment of immediate prejudice towards any politician that seems to have had a sudden conversion from fighting.

I mean, all of those first things are really easy. Most of Voldemort's followers have no problem using the curse or teleporting instantly anywhere they want or using concealment charms to stay hidden so politicians with no idea they're up against something they think is fiction are going to have no chance at all. And there will be no fear or suspicion since, like I said, this is Step One. War hasn't begun yet, Muggles don't know there's wizards, don't know they're in any kind of fight

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Arguably the most suitable targets would be 3 and 4 star generals ... but then again, many of these people would be suitably powerful minds. Say what you like about the military, it does inculcate an environment of personal strength and conviction. So if anyone were to routinely resist the effects of the spell, it would be these vetted people who are in charge of the active co-ordination of soldiers to destroy the threat.

Barty Crouch Senior, one of the most iron willed, unbending mofos in all the books could only half resist the Imperius curse even when he knew exactly what was happening. Against a muggle general, who has no idea these suggestions in his head are anything but his own, do you think they'd really have a chance?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Compare and contrast that to entirely mundane ways of non-magical brainwashing, and I think muggles have the upper hand in creating sleeper agents. After all, muggles just need to break the mind of one wizard to get to others of their kind for every thousand of commanders and cabinet politicians they have to target in turn.

Yeah but this once again depends on the Muggles knowing whats going on and knowing there would be something to fight. Not going to help you against a takeover of a government that no-one expects and no-one sees

Palindromemordnilap:

Wouldn't need every politician. Just the right ones. The ones in the right places or that others will follow. In-universe Umbridge was never placed under Imperius, but she was quite happy to follow along with the orders from the guy who was. Hell, look at American politics right now and how Republican politicians seem to skip right along with whatever batshit lunacy Trump is doing this particular week

Umbridge's career wouldn't survive a single phone call to UK's Department of Education. That's the thing, muggles have bureaucracy precisely because we don't have magic. Moreover, you're assuming that we couldn't use the Imperius curse to our own benefit. Say it was determined quetly (an eyewitness, an informant, a security camera, etc) ... you could feed misinformation to them, quietly, and drw wizards out that way.

]
Yeah but in the entire series we've seen precisely one person do that, and he has the advantage of being the protagonist with a suite of built in deus ex machinas helping him out.

So we're assuming the universe has no laws of its own? That's kind of problematic on its own.

So I think we're talking about one in a million odds you can shake off a powerful curse like that, and those odds get worse since most people won't have any idea whats happened and won't be sure how to fight it. As the curse is portrayed it works like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones in that it makes you think you absolutely want to go along with what the curse is telling you to do, so who knows if muggles who don't know they've been cursed have any chance at all of resisting it.

But then again, you only need one person. And this also assumes muggles can't use people socursed against the wizards themselves. Once again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and numbers. We only need to kill one of them to make 1000 casualties be relatively worth it to do so.

Also, whats this "command structure of a war against wizards"? This is step one here, the war hasn't started yet, there is no organising against wizard kind yet.

Which is precisely my point. Grindelwald terrorized his way through Europe, and muggles seem incredibly tolerant of that. As opposed to, you know, treating wizards as simply terrorists.

I mean, all of those first things are really easy. Most of Voldemort's followers have no problem using the curse or teleporting instantly anywhere they want or using concealment charms to stay hidden so politicians with no idea they're up against something they think is fiction are going to have no chance at all. And there will be no fear or suspicion since, like I said, this is Step One. War hasn't begun yet, Muggles don't know there's wizards, don't know they're in any kind of fight

Don't know there are wizards yet. Grindelwald's war is all about ending that invisibility itself. It's about trying to dominate muggles. And that requires visibility. If wizards are simply threatening various heads of state, as I wrote before all it takes is one wizard to tell muggles about the threat facing them. That's all it would take. One wizard.

The information that one wizard could provide would proibably be enough to wage a secret war, with a devastating first strike that will be unforeseen.

Barty Crouch Senior, one of the most iron willed, unbending mofos in all the books could only half resist the Imperius curse even when he knew exactly what was happening. Against a muggle general, who has no idea these suggestions in his head are anything but his own, do you think they'd really have a chance?

Barty Crouch Snr. was not a soldier, much less a highly vetted officer. Whether people like to admit it or not, the military is one of the few places that have come the closest to achieving a meritocracy. It's very efficacy demands it. Sir Peter Cosgrove was our Chief when I enlisted, and as a lieutenant in Vietnam his service record is nothing but bravery, skill and cunning. Personally taking to the battle and destroying the enemy with his weapon, but also besting the enemy with a superlative understanding of tactics, strategy and command.

The military is replete with nothing but people with iron will and conviction for victory.

The world of 1945 would have millions of people worldwide with similar experiences and where the iron will to survive and press the attack was what got them through the days. If you're going to find people who can fight the Imperius curse, you're going to find them in the soldiers that have faced the most devstating conflict in human history and personally staked their very lives for the safety of their fellow soldiers.

Yeah but this once again depends on the Muggles knowing whats going on and knowing there would be something to fight. Not going to help you against a takeover of a government that no-one expects and no-one sees

As I was saying before, it would take but one wizard illuminating the threat, and Grindelwald's stated objectives were enslaving muggles. Grindelwald doesn't want secrecy, and if it ever got to the point where he was going to make a major push that would eliminate all doubt as to the existence of wizards then the moral position to take is informing muggle authorities of the threat.

Whereby whatever information that can be provided, then go on to blunten any assault by wizards with a pre-emptive strike.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Umbridge's career wouldn't survive a single phone call to UK's Department of Education. That's the thing, muggles have bureaucracy precisely because we don't have magic. Moreover, you're assuming that we couldn't use the Imperius curse to our own benefit. Say it was determined quetly (an eyewitness, an informant, a security camera, etc) ... you could feed misinformation to them, quietly, and drw wizards out that way.

If bureaucracy was any good at actually stopping corruption or incompetence in a position then every politician mentioned in the Panama Papers would have had their careers ended. Yet they seem to be going strong. And I'm afraid I am going to have to mention Trump again, and how just one guy can suddenly mean all the rot starts coming forward.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
So we're assuming the universe has no laws of its own? That's kind of problematic on its own.

Oh it has rules. And that rules is "The Imperius Curse is super hard to break". You seem to be under the assumption that just anyone could shrug it off so I'm highlighting just how tricky the series has demonstrated that to be

Addendum_Forthcoming:
But then again, you only need one person. And this also assumes muggles can't use people socursed against the wizards themselves. Once again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and numbers. We only need to kill one of them to make 1000 casualties be relatively worth it to do so.

Okay, one person breaks the hold the Imperius Curse has. He starts babbling about wizards and magic, probably not in great state given what we've seen of people trying to break Imperius before...and promptly gets forcibly retired or packed off to an asylum. Because the things he's saying are insane. And the evil wizards just move on to curse his replacement. Because what else do you expect to happen in a scenario like that?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Which is precisely my point. Grindelwald terrorized his way through Europe, and muggles seem incredibly tolerant of that. As opposed to, you know, treating wizards as simply terrorists.

Because they don't know its wizards. And everyone thinks wizards are fiction so why would they ever think it was wizards? Are you assuming Grindelwald also left a nice note at the scene of his crimes explaining who he was and exactly what was going on? You have a shit ton of civil unrest going on the 20s, its just going to pinned on, like, the bolsheviks or something

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Don't know there are wizards yet. Grindelwald's war is all about ending that invisibility itself. It's about trying to dominate muggles. And that requires visibility. If wizards are simply threatening various heads of state, as I wrote before all it takes is one wizard to tell muggles about the threat facing them. That's all it would take. One wizard.

The information that one wizard could provide would proibably be enough to wage a secret war, with a devastating first strike that will be unforeseen.

Yes, but the point I'm making is that if you want to come out the shadows and dominate the Muggles you're going to want to neutralise their effectiveness in fighting back first. And by the time you do come out the shadows you're going to have infiltrated and assumed control of their governments before they actually realise whats going on. And they're not threatening those heads of state, they're not bribing them, they're not blackmailing them, they're placing them under magical, mostly unbreakable mind control. Not quite the same
And I have to ask what you think that one wizard is going to say or do to get everyone suddenly believing wizard-kind exists. Tell those heads of state he knows is under threat? Why should they believe him? Demonstrate some spells? Just going to think thats a trick. Humans largely don't believe magic actually exists, you have someone telling us they're a wizard we're just going to assume they're some David Copperfield wannabe

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Barty Crouch Snr. was not a soldier, much less a highly vetted officer. Whether people like to admit it or not, the military is one of the few places that have come the closest to achieving a meritocracy. It's very efficacy demands it. Sir Peter Cosgrove was our Chief when I enlisted, and as a lieutenant in Vietnam his service record is nothing but bravery, skill and cunning. Personally taking to the battle and destroying the enemy with his weapon, but also besting the enemy with a superlative understanding of tactics, strategy and command.

Sorry, but this is just your bias showing through. Being a soldier does not grant you +3 to your Wisdom and a resistance to psychic damage rolls. It does not confer upon you some magic quality that cannot be found anywhere else. What you're saying here is "Oh you can't really be brave and you can't really be tough if you weren't a soldier" and yeah thats really kind of bullshit dude. And frankly, given the military has a very strict application of the chain of command where following orders is a vital part of the training, I'd say you'd be probably actually be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse with that kind of mindset.
So sorry, but I don't think it matter in the slightest that Crouch wasn't a soldier. He still demonstrated exactly the kind of determination, resolve and drive that you think should should allow someone to shake off the Imperius curse...and he couldn't. Not completely anyway, and the effort all but broke him.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
As I was saying before, it would take but one wizard illuminating the threat, and Grindelwald's stated objectives were enslaving muggles. Grindelwald doesn't want secrecy, and if it ever got to the point where he was going to make a major push that would eliminate all doubt as to the existence of wizards then the moral position to take is informing muggle authorities of the threat.

Whereby whatever information that can be provided, then go on to blunten any assault by wizards with a pre-emptive strike.

I mentioned one wizard telling all isn't going to accomplish anything now, why do you think it'll be easier in the 20s where there's far less mass media or ability to get his point across? Why do you keep operating under the assumption that one guy going "Hey I'm a wizard" is suddenly going to fill every muggle with the knowledge you have from reading the books? A wizard coming forward to try and warn people about the evil wizard trying to kill them all, be it Grindy or Voldy, is going to be written off as a hack showman at best and a dangerous lunatic at worst.

But if we assume that one wizard gets through to one general...what then? Launch a pre-emptive strike like you say? How? Against who? Most wizards have based themselves around major population centres like London or Paris, so you've got no chance or getting an any kind of attack near them approved. No-ones going to let you drop bombs on London because a wizard told you to, thats just mad

Palindromemordnilap:

If bureaucracy was any good at actually stopping corruption or incompetence in a position then every politician mentioned in the Panama Papers would have had their careers ended. Yet they seem to be going strong. And I'm afraid I am going to have to mention Trump again, and how just one guy can suddenly mean all the rot starts coming forward.

Bureaucracy can and does protect you. For every dollar the public funds the IRS you get nine back. And these people aren't doing much more than following what is already pretty broken taxation laws. The nature of bureaucracy comes down to the fact that it is not a power unto itself. It's given power in same way anything is givn power, people invest themselves in it.

If bureaucracy can save you and your loved one's from facing a tyrannical boot of a wizard, damn straight people are going to invest power in it. It matters not the moral metrics by which this power is invested, both good or ill, but one thing that all bureaucracy has is that it grinds the masses into constructed traits that people can only but rebel against if theyso choose. But once again, it depends on how much people have invested into it.

The objective of any hypothetical 'Wizarpo' is less about getting all the wizards, and more about forcing them out of public life. It is literally about checkmating Grindelwald's public espoused ideas of ending wizard secrecy and punishing muggles for it for some reason.

Oh it has rules. And that rules is "The Imperius Curse is super hard to break". You seem to be under the assumption that just anyone could shrug it off so I'm highlighting just how tricky the series has demonstrated that to be.

But Harry Potter 'is just anyone' ... if Imperius was as easy as it were, itwouldn'[t face a litany of problems everytime it's brought up in the books or movies.

Okay, one person breaks the hold the Imperius Curse has. He starts babbling about wizards and magic, probably not in great state given what we've seen of people trying to break Imperius before...and promptly gets forcibly retired or packed off to an asylum. Because the things he's saying are insane. And the evil wizards just move on to curse his replacement. Because what else do you expect to happen in a scenario like that?

Do you actually read my posts?

they don't know its wizards. And everyone thinks wizards are fiction so why would they ever think it was wizards? Are you assuming Grindelwald also left a nice note at the scene of his crimes explaining who he was and exactly what was going on? You have a shit ton of civil unrest going on the 20s, its just going to pinned on, like, the bolsheviks or something

Once again, Grindelwald does not want secrecy. His stated goals are to end that secrecy.

Yes, but the point I'm making is that if you want to come out the shadows and dominate the Muggles you're going to want to neutralise their effectiveness in fighting back first. And by the time you do come out the shadows you're going to have infiltrated and assumed control of their governments before they actually realise whats going on. And they're not threatening those heads of state, they're not bribing them, they're not blackmailing them, they're placing them under magical, mostly unbreakable mind control. Not quite the same.

Okay, how exactly are you going to 'neutralize their effectiveness'? Do you know how the rich and powerful have taken over governments? With lobbyists. They don't need the Imperius curse, you just needan understanding of campaign donor laws. But then again it would be foolish as if to pretend that any of that is applicable when it is blatantly obvious and the only reason to do sois literally 'We want to rule the world'.

Wizards already 'rule the world' ... by remaining in the shadows. They go wherever they want, they do incredibly illegal things, none of them face any real substantive degree of punishment in a conventionally acceptable way for untold horrors they inflict on muggles repeatedly. None of them are hauled infront of the public by Interpol for crimes against humanity. They can literally press child soldiers to fight someone like a Voldemort.

I mean, think about it like this. Wizards kill many thousands across Europe. Terrorize muggles. How many of them actually brought to justice by muggles? None. They're effectively the arms manufacturers and their lobbyists in mundane reality, and yet somehow even worse because for all the families and friends of the ones that die at their hands never actually know why.

What more do they want from this life of zero responsibility and zero culpability?

This is why I say wizards are fucking idiots. Driven by ego and ego only, and muggles would not tolerate it the same way they do capitalist systems of iniquity.

And I have to ask what you think that one wizard is going to say or do to get everyone suddenly believing wizard-kind exists. Tell those heads of state he knows is under threat? Why should they believe him? Demonstrate some spells? Just going to think thats a trick. Humans largely don't believe magic actually exists, you have someone telling us they're a wizard we're just going to assume they're some David Copperfield wannabe

And? Wizards have plenty up their sleeve to convince muggles they'rea threat. The whole reason wizards desire secrecy in the first place and why Grindelwald wants to end it. That secrecy was not born out of 'oh, but muggles themselves maintain it'.

Sorry, but this is just your bias showing through. Being a soldier does not grant you +3 to your Wisdom and a resistance to psychic damage rolls. It does not confer upon you some magic quality that cannot be found anywhere else. What you're saying here is "Oh you can't really be brave and you can't really be tough if you weren't a soldier" and yeah thats really kind of bullshit dude. And frankly, given the military has a very strict application of the chain of command where following orders is a vital part of the training, I'd say you'd be probably actually be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse with that kind of mindset.
So sorry, but I don't think it matter in the slightest that Crouch wasn't a soldier. He still demonstrated exactly the kind of determination, resolve and drive that you think should should allow someone to shake off the Imperius curse...and he couldn't. Not completely anyway, and the effort all but broke him.

Neither does simply 'being magical' protect oneself from the Imperius curse. It is people irrespective with a 'strong will'. Also, the military doesn't want brainless people, they want people with initiative and personal drive. So ... you know, what were you saying about biases? Also, no, Barty Crouch Snr was a miserly bureaucrat. Old and cruel.

I mentioned one wizard telling all isn't going to accomplish anything now, why do you think it'll be easier in the 20s where there's far less mass media or ability to get his point across? Why do you keep operating under the assumption that one guy going "Hey I'm a wizard" is suddenly going to fill every muggle with the knowledge you have from reading the books? A wizard coming forward to try and warn people about the evil wizard trying to kill them all, be it Grindy or Voldy, is going to be written off as a hack showman at best and a dangerous lunatic at worst.

Grindelwald was defeated and imprisoned in 1945.

But if we assume that one wizard gets through to one general...what then? Launch a pre-emptive strike like you say? How? Against who? Most wizards have based themselves around major population centres like London or Paris, so you've got no chance or getting an any kind of attack near them approved. No-ones going to let you drop bombs on London because a wizard told you to, thats just mad

Anybody can die in a house fire, or a car accident, or a rare case of botulism. What? You think it's so hard to make a murder look like an accident or simply disappear a person? Wizards are fucking idiots. The books themselves illustrate that enough.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Bureaucracy can and does protect you. For every dollar the public funds the IRS you get nine back. And these people aren't doing much more than following what is already pretty broken taxation laws. The nature of bureaucracy comes down to the fact that it is not a power unto itself. It's given power in same way anything is givn power, people invest themselves in it.

If bureaucracy can save you and your loved one's from facing a tyrannical boot of a wizard, damn straight people are going to invest power in it. It matters not the moral metrics by which this power is invested, both good or ill, but one thing that all bureaucracy has is that it grinds the masses into constructed traits that people can only but rebel against if theyso choose. But once again, it depends on how much people have invested into it.

Technically I get nothing from the IRS, since I'm not a US citizen, buts thats besides the point XD. Your second sentence makes my point for me; There are numerous loopholes and flaws within a bureaucratic system. What makes you think wizards deliberately infiltrating a government to control it couldn't use those themselves. Bureaucracy far more often defends the people running it rather than the people working under it

Addendum_Forthcoming:
The objective of any hypothetical 'Wizarpo' is less about getting all the wizards, and more about forcing them out of public life. It is literally about checkmating Grindelwald's public espoused ideas of ending wizard secrecy and punishing muggles for it for some reason.

Except they're not in public life yet. Still staying secret. Your entire argument seems to constantly rely on every wizard being suddenly revealed and in the open with the muggles knowing all their secrets somehow, when my point is that assuming control of governments is the step that happens before that

Addendum_Forthcoming:
But Harry Potter 'is just anyone' ... if Imperius was as easy as it were, itwouldn'[t face a litany of problems everytime it's brought up in the books or movies.

Yes, Harry Potter having protagonist powers is a point I raised earlier. You're agreeing with me that the Imperius is hard to break and can't be done by anyone but the mostest specialest. So there's going to be pretty much no muggles who stand a chance

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Do you actually read my posts?

Yes, but like I said earlier you always seem to be assuming that wizards are now completely open about everything when my entire argument, from my first reply to you, is that this approach is Step One and occurs before that happens. So really the question is are you reading my posts?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Once again, Grindelwald does not want secrecy. His stated goals are to end that secrecy.

Yes, but not entirely. You know what else Grindy wants? Supremacy. He doesn't just want to be honest, he wants to be in charge. So why wouldn't he do everything in his power to gain that even if it meant staying secret a little longer?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Okay, how exactly are you going to 'neutralize their effectiveness'? Do you know how the rich and powerful have taken over governments? With lobbyists. They don't need the Imperius curse, you just needan understanding of campaign donor laws. But then again it would be foolish as if to pretend that any of that is applicable when it is blatantly obvious and the only reason to do sois literally 'We want to rule the world'.

Then use Imperius curse to control the lobbyists. Or just become lobbyists, its what the Malfoys have been doing with the Ministry of Magic. When my point is "control the government before you take yourselves out in the open" why does it matter how the end up controlling the government?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Wizards already 'rule the world' ... by remaining in the shadows. They go wherever they want, they do incredibly illegal things, none of them face any real substantive degree of punishment in a conventionally acceptable way for untold horrors they inflict on muggles repeatedly. None of them are hauled infront of the public by Interpol for crimes against humanity. They can literally press child soldiers to fight someone like a Voldemort.

I mean, think about it like this. Wizards kill many thousands across Europe. Terrorize muggles. How many of them actually brought to justice by muggles? None. They're effectively the arms manufacturers and their lobbyists in mundane reality, and yet somehow even worse because for all the families and friends of the ones that die at their hands never actually know why.

What more do they want from this life of zero responsibility and zero culpability?

Because they are culpable to their own Ministries for such abuses. You can argue about the legalities and ethics of the Ministries operating under their own rules if you wish but they do punish people for thing like terrorising muggles. The bad guy wizards would like to be free of even that, allowed to treat muggles with all the contempt they feel they deserve with actually zero culpability

Addendum_Forthcoming:
And? Wizards have plenty up their sleeve to convince muggles they'rea threat. The whole reason wizards desire secrecy in the first place and why Grindelwald wants to end it. That secrecy was not born out of 'oh, but muggles themselves maintain it'.

I'm struggling to see how this answers my point. Yes, wizards have plenty of spells or bewitched artefacts that would make them a threat. But would you believe it if you were shown them? If you saw a youtube video of someone performing magic, would you think "OMG wizards are real!" or would you think "Neat trick, wonder how he did it?" If Penn and Teller came and told you they were in fact real wizards and all their tricks were real magic, would you actually believe them?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Neither does simply 'being magical' protect oneself from the Imperius curse. It is people irrespective with a 'strong will'. Also, the military doesn't want brainless people, they want people with initiative and personal drive. So ... you know, what were you saying about biases? Also, no, Barty Crouch Snr was a miserly bureaucrat. Old and cruel.

Yes, all that matters is the strong will. Thats...pretty much exactly the point I was making. But I'm backing that up by pointing out just how strong the will has to be. Barty Crouch fits every criteria you're insisting on, a man with enough conviction to sentence his own son to life imprisonment, enough drive to become a renowned judge and politician, enough ambition to almost become Minister for Magic. Dude manage to plan and prep the Quidditch World Cup, a massive operation of resources, manpower and spell power. You writing him off as a bureaucrat (incidentally, doesn't using that as a derogatory term sort of undermine your earlier point about how useful bureaucracy is and how it will protect people?) does the character a real disservice. And yet he still couldn't shake off the Imperius curse, and getting to the stages of breaking through it that he did manage nearly killed him. Why would a muggle with no idea of what was happening to him have any better of a chance?

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Grindelwald was defeated and imprisoned in 1945.

...and? The Fantastic Beasts films from which we see him making his moves are set in the 20s. And while his defeat comes later, its not like media, communication and information sharing has advanced to the stage it is at, say, now.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Anybody can die in a house fire, or a car accident, or a rare case of botulism. What? You think it's so hard to make a murder look like an accident or simply disappear a person? Wizards are fucking idiots. The books themselves illustrate that enough.

My question remains: How are you going to be doing that? Who are you getting approval from to do that? Going to just strike out on your own, conduct operations against citizens of your own country with no-ones authority but your own? Yeah good luck not getting branded as a dangerous rogue for doing that, enjoy the consequences that brings

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