Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse

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Johnny Novgorod:
I guess that's my biggest frustration with the movie - the waste of the stuff that could've made it brilliant. Like how the Spider-Verse itself (the diversity of Spideys) doesn't factor into the plot. You could've told the same story without inventing other dimensions, feels like. Silly underdog, down-and-out mentor and no-nonsense friendzone chick, which is every Marvel chick btw. And for that matter, if there's an infinity of Spider-People, why should I give a shit when one of them dies? Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever? You don't have to go full nihilist Rick & Morty style but at least acknowledge the potential intricacies of the plot. Let Miles have an emo moment with that.

Well, it's not really going for the existential implications behind infinte realities. Same as how Marvel doesn't delve into what the impact of discovering extraterrestrial life would have on our notion of.. everything. It's using it to just throw some craziness together. And it deliberately chooses Spider-people which are all different people, not slightly different versions of the same person, so that you do care if one of them should die - They're not all Peter Parker, only one of them is. And the one that does die is used to not only make Miles feel woefully inadiquate to take his place as the new Spider-Man, but also to show how much of a bum Peter B. Parker is.

It uses the multi-verse angle to put what is generally seen as an iconic superhero identity onto anyone. The idea being that anyone can wear the mantle, it's not just stuck to one identity, find your own voice etc. That's also the idea behind the pretty heavy symbolism of Miles tagging the Spider-suit he gets from May.

And I actually kinda liked the thing between Miles and Gwen. There's a little bit of something there, but since they're both literally from different worlds (and can't exist in eachother's) they can't pursue it. It also wouldn't make sense in the moment, because making sure the world doesn't end is a bit more important. But at the end when they say goodbye you can tell there's a hint of 'maybe something could've happened, but you know..'

Casual Shinji:

Johnny Novgorod:
I guess that's my biggest frustration with the movie - the waste of the stuff that could've made it brilliant. Like how the Spider-Verse itself (the diversity of Spideys) doesn't factor into the plot. You could've told the same story without inventing other dimensions, feels like. Silly underdog, down-and-out mentor and no-nonsense friendzone chick, which is every Marvel chick btw. And for that matter, if there's an infinity of Spider-People, why should I give a shit when one of them dies? Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever? You don't have to go full nihilist Rick & Morty style but at least acknowledge the potential intricacies of the plot. Let Miles have an emo moment with that.

Well, it's not really going for the existential implications behind infinte realities. Same as how Marvel doesn't delve into what the impact of discovering extraterrestrial life would have on our notion of.. everything. It's using it to just throw some craziness together.

Which I find underwhelming. It didn't feel like there was much going on beneath the light show, although I appreciated the quieter Pixar-like moments in which well-meaning mom and dad decide to reach out to junior even if they don't get what's going on.

It uses the multi-verse angle to put what is generally seen as an iconic superhero identity onto anyone. The idea being that anyone can wear the mantle, it's not just stuck to one identity, find your own voice etc.

Well, anyone who gets bitten by a radioactive spider, sure. I think the "everybody's special" message is pretty disingenuous. I prefer the parting thoughts of Rataouille about how not everyone's special (in which case, go find your thing) but special can come from anywhere. Which is basically the philosophy behind The Incredibles, really. And I don't think much of Miles spray-painting his uniform like it's a vow to newfound confidence in his individuality. It's still a uniform. It was given to him. Every Spidey wears one.

And I actually kinda liked the thing between Miles and Gwen. There's a little bit of something there, but since they're both literally from different worlds (and can't exist in eachother's) they can't pursue it. It also wouldn't make sense in the moment, because making sure the world doesn't end is a bit more important. But at the end when they say goodbye you can tell there's a hint of 'maybe something could've happened, but you know..'

Dorky, immature underdog with a chaste, no-nonsense female counterpart? Well-written here but done a million times already. That's every relationship in the hero-verse: we like each other but duty calls.

Saw it yesterday and loved it.

I've always had a VERY soft sport for Spidey. He's the most hero-y of super heroes. 100% pure determination and guts, complete dedication to doing the right thing even when it sucks because that's what heroes do. Extreme level quipping. And finally, ultra neat mobility powers.

So this movie felt like a maxed out love letter to the whole thing, and I loved it right back.

Not to mention the animation was friggen gorgeous. It was a little wild and chaotic, sure, but it REALLY popped.

I really enjoyed all the spideys, even though I wish some of them got a little more screen time and/or story beats and were more than "Hey, here's some really cool-looking backup muscle for the big epic fight!"

ObsidianJones:

Live Action is so... Flat. Very rarely does the medium really display how powerful these people are. The one time I can think of is when Hulk and Thor finished their fight on board the Chitauri ship. But the rest... Hell, Thor Ragnarok on the Bifrost bridge. We're talking about a man who can lift the World Serpent. And how powerful did he look? He was mainly punching guys and pushing them back as much as Captain America. His one real feat of strength was throwing a guy in the air.

Although I don't have the CGI disconnect, and I DO adore the hell out of the MCU, I do feel like animation allows you go really show everything these heroes are capable of.

Like, in Homecoming, Spidey was pretty damn great and had some epic feats, but it all felt like it had to be semi-grounded and appear at least somewhat plausiable. In Spiderverse they could REALLY make some of the web-slinging shenanigans look manic and hyper and lightning-fast like Spidey is supposed to be, and I really appreciated that.

Johnny Novgorod:
Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever?

Honestly, I am REALLY glad they didn't go that angle. That trope actively bores me.

Maybe it's just me, but I see nothing to angst about in that scenario. Oh no, there are universes where the exact opposite happened, where is the meaning?! ...Well, considering I still have to live in my own universe (unless I could hop over to another one and think killing and replacing another me is feasible and moral), I still have to live with the consequences of my actions. So...Yeah, still plenty of meaning. Same goes for any other universe me's. If they die, their universe is now lacking them, and that's (usually) a sad thing for everyone they know.

Then again, I'm incredibly ambivalent towards this kind of existential dread thing.

Oh no, we're alone in the universe?! Meh, who cares, we're locked to our planet anyway, what does the rest of the universe really matter? We are tiny little people on a tiny little rock orbiting in a tiny little solar system, in one galaxy among basically infinite ones anyway. If there was a small handful of intelligent life out there, we'd never likely meet them.

Oh no, we're NOT alone in the universe and we aren't special because intelligent life is insanely common and we are in fact the galactic losers who can't get off our homeworld? Cool, I'd enjoy seeing some of the weird and wacky life forms out there, they're probably pretty nifty.

Oh no, the world is a simulation? Well, yeah, ok, that kinda sucks and I'm terrified someone might trip over the power cable, but ultimately, what the hell does that change in my life? Not really much, except make me wonder how I can break the simluation's rules to my benefit.

Oh no, the universe is Cthulhu, the real truth will drive us mad, horrors luck out of sight to eat us all and if Azathoth wakes up, everything dies or goes mad? ...On one hand, kinda scary, on the other hand, this would just make me want to learn the true nature of things and risk insanity because it all sounds so damn nifty and I'm curious! (I'd the be second casualty in any lovecraft story, mark my words)

Oh no, the universe is completely deterministic and literally all our actions are decided in advance, free will is an illusion? Well, yeah, ok, this possibility actually does suck pretty bad. But all it'll do is make me sigh, go "oh well", reach for another cookie and enjoy it guilt free because, hey, it was meant to happen, and then just carry on with my life as normal.

Essentially, I fully embrace the idea that we make our own meaning. It feels so natural and obvious to me. So people going "Nothing has any meaning, nothing really matters!" does nothing for me.

I understand why they're upset, but it feels like those people who go "God isn't real?! Then there are no objective moral guidelines at all, nothing is immoral!" and I'm like "Uhh...Yeah there are? Suffering sucks and we should try to avoid causing it? Doing so makes life better for everyone including you, so I'd say that's pretty moral and right, no?"

aegix drakan:

Johnny Novgorod:
Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever?

snip

I'm not saying make the movie about the existential dilemma of an actual multiverse, but at least have a realistic reaction towards the discovery, give the protagonist a solitary throwaway line acknowledging, fearing, musing about the possibilities, whatever. Everything was too matter of fact. These are really just nitpicks on my end, I liked the movie - I liked it enough that I'm disappointed by the things I wanted to see and didn't get.

Johnny Novgorod:

aegix drakan:

Johnny Novgorod:
Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever?

snip

I'm not saying make the movie about the existential dilemma of an actual multiverse, but at least have a realistic reaction towards the discovery, give the protagonist a solitary throwaway line acknowledging, fearing, musing about the possibilities, whatever. Everything was too matter of fact. These are really just nitpicks on my end, I liked the movie - I liked it enough that I'm disappointed by the things I wanted to see and didn't get.

Why would he be musing about the possiblities its not like its an alternate universe where there are multiple Miles exist, its more vague like "What if Spiderman was in the Great Depression", "What if Spiderman was an anime character", "What if Gwen Stacy was bitten", or "What if Spiderman was a cartoon pig". Things like that instead of the whole "Miles meets alternate versions of himself and notice that he doesn't matter".

PapaGreg096:

Johnny Novgorod:

aegix drakan:
snip

I'm not saying make the movie about the existential dilemma of an actual multiverse, but at least have a realistic reaction towards the discovery, give the protagonist a solitary throwaway line acknowledging, fearing, musing about the possibilities, whatever. Everything was too matter of fact. These are really just nitpicks on my end, I liked the movie - I liked it enough that I'm disappointed by the things I wanted to see and didn't get.

Why would he be musing about the possiblities its not like its an alternate universe where there are multiple Miles exist, its more vague like "What if Spiderman was in the Great Depression", "What if Spiderman was an anime character", "What if Gwen Stacy was bitten", or "What if Spiderman was a cartoon pig". Things like that instead of the whole "Miles meets alternate versions of himself and notice that he doesn't matter".

But then you have the two Peter Parkers who look exactly the same (hair color aside), live in the same (alternative) "present", have the same aunt, married the same person, etc. Their whole lives share the same people and same plot points, things have turned for better or for worse at certain points is all. By that token there's an infinite number of Miles Second Name Morales out there.

I enjoyed the movie a lot. The writing in particular is fantastic- self-aware, clever, deft, fast-moving without being weightless. I don't entirely feel like I can compare it to other Spider-Man movies or even other superhero movies because it's so much its own thing. It so embraces the idea that you're already well aware, if not overly-aware, of Spider-Man and his backstory that it feels like putting it above other movies would be like downgrading the required reading without which the focus wouldn't exist.

Treading lightly, I also have to suggest that a lot of movies could stand to learn a thing or two from "Spiderverse" about how to create and celebrate diversity without bludgeoning its audience with it. The original Peter Parker is only on the scene briefly- long enough to establish him as a little arrogant but basically a likable and good-hearted man who loves being Spider-Man. He's the first one to show any faith in Miles, and immediately expresses both interest and willingness to help and teach him; he's not threatened by his existence, and indeed seems thrilled by the idea that there might be others like him.

It's a theme throughout the film, really: There are others, like me but different, they're great in their own different ways, and it's a good thing.

It didn't need to mock or downgrade Peter Parker to pump up Miles Morales. It didn't need Miles to be without flaws or doubts in order for him to be a hero. It was aware of race and gender without having to constantly turn everyone who didn't check a certain number of diversity boxes into a villain or an ignorant ass in dire need of lecture, enlightenment, and the guiding hand of imminently enlightened minorities. Character flowed from more than needing people to serve as examples or exemplars.

It does it, and so many other things, so well, and makes it seem so easy, that it kind of makes me go, "Damn! Why aren't more movies doing this?!"

Johnny Novgorod:

PapaGreg096:

Johnny Novgorod:

I'm not saying make the movie about the existential dilemma of an actual multiverse, but at least have a realistic reaction towards the discovery, give the protagonist a solitary throwaway line acknowledging, fearing, musing about the possibilities, whatever. Everything was too matter of fact. These are really just nitpicks on my end, I liked the movie - I liked it enough that I'm disappointed by the things I wanted to see and didn't get.

Why would he be musing about the possiblities its not like its an alternate universe where there are multiple Miles exist, its more vague like "What if Spiderman was in the Great Depression", "What if Spiderman was an anime character", "What if Gwen Stacy was bitten", or "What if Spiderman was a cartoon pig". Things like that instead of the whole "Miles meets alternate versions of himself and notice that he doesn't matter".

But then you have the two Peter Parkers who look exactly the same (hair color aside), live in the same (alternative) "present", have the same aunt, married the same person, etc. Their whole lives share the same people and same plot points, things have turned for better or for worse at certain points is all. By that token there's an infinite number of Miles Second Name Morales out there.

I would't say same "present" since Peter B Parker is older than blond Parker also Miles needs to become his own hero first before he meets alternate versions of himself..

Johnny Novgorod:

aegix drakan:

Johnny Novgorod:
Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever?

snip

I'm not saying make the movie about the existential dilemma of an actual multiverse, but at least have a realistic reaction towards the discovery, give the protagonist a solitary throwaway line acknowledging, fearing, musing about the possibilities, whatever. Everything was too matter of fact. These are really just nitpicks on my end, I liked the movie - I liked it enough that I'm disappointed by the things I wanted to see and didn't get.

...isn't that Peter B Parker's character arc? And the bit where all the spider-people are relived/excited to find out that they aren't alone in being spider-people?

Easily my favorite movie of 2018. While I do love the MCU, Comic movies work so much better animated than in live action. Scenes like Miles and B. Parker getting dragged away by a train or Miles throwing a bagel at an Alchemex employee while running away are done so well I could watch them over and over. The music is fantastic. The soundtrack is pretty good and the score is amazing. I'm honestly torn between it and Black Panther's for my favorite score of 2018. The story itself isn't some ground-breaking tale, but it's told well so I can't complain. All in all, I couldn't ask for a better movie to debut Miles to the big screen.

On the subject of the other Spiders not getting any time to shine, I was kinda disappointed too, but the way I see it, Spiderverse serves as a brief introduction to Marvel's multiverse and, more importantly, the origin story of Miles Morales. The already green lit sequel is already on its way, so hopefully we'll get more alternate spiders. Really hoping May Day Parker, Superior, Spiders-Man, and Jessica Drew get some love.

Casual Shinji:
And I actually kinda liked the thing between Miles and Gwen. There's a little bit of something there, but since they're both literally from different worlds (and can't exist in eachother's) they can't pursue it. It also wouldn't make sense in the moment, because making sure the world doesn't end is a bit more important. But at the end when they say goodbye you can tell there's a hint of 'maybe something could've happened, but you know..'

Well, if Gwen can get her hands on Miguel's wrist teleporter, they could make it work. It definitely still wouldn't because one or both of them would need to abandon their home, but they could try.

Johnny Novgorod:

Dorky, immature underdog with a chaste, no-nonsense female counterpart? Well-written here but done a million times already. That's every relationship in the hero-verse: we like each other but duty calls.

Yeah, this has been done to the point that I couldn't help but roll my eyes. But Spiderverse does it so well that I can't hate it. I do wish writers would move on from this, though. It's been done to death, resurrected, then beaten to death again.

Johnny Novgorod:

Casual Shinji:
Well, it's not really going for the existential implications behind infinte realities. Same as how Marvel doesn't delve into what the impact of discovering extraterrestrial life would have on our notion of.. everything. It's using it to just throw some craziness together.

Which I find underwhelming. It didn't feel like there was much going on beneath the light show, although I appreciated the quieter Pixar-like moments in which well-meaning mom and dad decide to reach out to junior even if they don't get what's going on.

The Multi-verse isn't the point it's the catalyst. Same as how in Kiki's Delivery Service the point isn't that magic exists, it's just used to show this character find their way in the world with the talent they have. You could equally have Kiki not be a witch who can fly on a broom and you would still have the same plot/message. Does that mean, there's no point in her being a witch, or is it simply a case of 'yay look, she's a witch and she's flying around, cuz it's fun'?

It uses the multi-verse angle to put what is generally seen as an iconic superhero identity onto anyone. The idea being that anyone can wear the mantle, it's not just stuck to one identity, find your own voice etc.

Well, anyone who gets bitten by a radioactive spider, sure. I think the "everybody's special" message is pretty disingenuous. I prefer the parting thoughts of Rataouille about how not everyone's special (in which case, go find your thing) but special can come from anywhere. Which is basically the philosophy behind The Incredibles, really. And I don't think much of Miles spray-painting his uniform like it's a vow to newfound confidence in his individuality. It's still a uniform. It was given to him. Every Spidey wears one.

The whole Spider-Man mantle functions as a substitute for just life in general, and what makes you stand out/special/find your own voice within that space. Hence why there's multiple Spider-Men contrasted against one another and not against people who aren't Spider-Man. There's even a moment where Miles tries to hide behind the fact that he's suffered, resulting in the other Spider-Men saying 'yeah well, so have we'. Now this is kinda used as a little joke how Spider-Man always has some tragic backstory or loss, but it equally functions as 'life is suffering, but you can't let it get you down'.

And the uniform, within the context of being a Spider-Man, is about him making it his own, not just taking it as is. That's where the individuality comes into play.

And I actually kinda liked the thing between Miles and Gwen. There's a little bit of something there, but since they're both literally from different worlds (and can't exist in eachother's) they can't pursue it. It also wouldn't make sense in the moment, because making sure the world doesn't end is a bit more important. But at the end when they say goodbye you can tell there's a hint of 'maybe something could've happened, but you know..'

Dorky, immature underdog with a chaste, no-nonsense female counterpart? Well-written here but done a million times already. That's every relationship in the hero-verse: we like each other but duty calls.

Well, I'm not saying it's original, am I? I just like how it was framed. Especially since there was supposed to be a romance subplot between the two, but it was scrapped, and it works out for the better.

Captain Marvelous:

Casual Shinji:
And I actually kinda liked the thing between Miles and Gwen. There's a little bit of something there, but since they're both literally from different worlds (and can't exist in eachother's) they can't pursue it. It also wouldn't make sense in the moment, because making sure the world doesn't end is a bit more important. But at the end when they say goodbye you can tell there's a hint of 'maybe something could've happened, but you know..'

Well, if Gwen can get her hands on Miguel's wrist teleporter, they could make it work. It definitely still wouldn't because one or both of them would need to abandon their home, but they could try.

I think the end already implies that she sort of did. The writers could try to give it it some sort of long distance relationship angle in the sequel, that could be interesting. As long as they don't get too dramatic with it. Still hope they don't really pursue it though. Romance subplots in ongoing superhero fiction always runs out of steam very quickly.

Johnny Novgorod:
Well, anyone who gets bitten by a radioactive spider, sure. I think the "everybody's special" message is pretty disingenuous. I prefer the parting thoughts of Rataouille about how not everyone's special (in which case, go find your thing) but special can come from anywhere. Which is basically the philosophy behind The Incredibles, really.

Eh, isn't that sort of what the movie is going for? The Spiders all have various different backgrounds and abilities but what really marks them out is their trait of getting back up again when knocked down. They're super because of their abilities, they're heroes because of their attitudes. And anyone could do that. It's why the Stan Lee quote they used in the first post credit scene is enormously appropriate

One of my fave films of 2018! a pleasant surprise

Palindromemordnilap:

Johnny Novgorod:
Well, anyone who gets bitten by a radioactive spider, sure. I think the "everybody's special" message is pretty disingenuous. I prefer the parting thoughts of Rataouille about how not everyone's special (in which case, go find your thing) but special can come from anywhere. Which is basically the philosophy behind The Incredibles, really.

Eh, isn't that sort of what the movie is going for? The Spiders all have various different backgrounds and abilities but what really marks them out is their trait of getting back up again when knocked down. They're super because of their abilities, they're heroes because of their attitudes. And anyone could do that. It's why the Stan Lee quote they used in the first post credit scene is enormously appropriate

What would that be? I walked out as soon as the credits started rolling.
The "other" Stan Lee quote I got from this film is "the suit fits everybody".

Johnny Novgorod:
What would that be? I walked out as soon as the credits started rolling.
The "other" Stan Lee quote I got from this film is "the suit fits everybody".

"That person who helps others simply because it should or must be done, and because it is the right thing to do, is indeed without a doubt, a real superhero."
They is it as part of their "In Memory Of" bit in the first post-credit scene. And is basically the moral the film seems to be going for, I think. Miles keeps getting back up and keeps trying even though he doesn't control over his abilities until the end, thats what makes him the hero

I'd like to mention that Spider-Ham is a spider who was bitten by a radioactive pig. There is a version of Aunt May with powers known as Spider Ma'am.

Personally I loved this movie and only hope we get to see Ultimate Jessica Drew in a sequel as the comics seem to have forgotten about her.

trunkage:
Spider-Gwen had no development and was overpowered from the start, making her head into Mary Sue territory.

There's such a thing as a supporting cast. The story is 100% focused on Miles so the other characters don't necessarily have to be developed. I also didn't feel like Gwen was overpowered at all or why you would think she's a Mary Sue when she's not the main character. She comes in and saves them from Doc Ock partly because she gets the jump on her, but after that she's just a generic spider person. If anything Miles is kind of the overpowered one. In the entire movie he just barely gets the hang of how to swing, climb on walls, and his two unique abilities right before the final battle, but then after remembering some inspirational words, he's able to fight on par with the other Spider-People AND defeat the person who kills his world's Spider-man?

Johnny Novgorod:
I guess that's my biggest frustration with the movie - the waste of the stuff that could've made it brilliant. Like how the Spider-Verse itself (the diversity of Spideys) doesn't factor into the plot. You could've told the same story without inventing other dimensions, feels like. Silly underdog, down-and-out mentor and no-nonsense friendzone chick, which is every Marvel chick btw. And for that matter, if there's an infinity of Spider-People, why should I give a shit when one of them dies? Why care about anything when the universe factors in every single possibility and outcome ever? You don't have to go full nihilist Rick & Morty style but at least acknowledge the potential intricacies of the plot. Let Miles have an emo moment with that.

This is more or less a Miles origin story using Spider-verse as a backdrop and an excuse to introduce merchandisable character designs. I imagine they also had to factor in the fact that they needed to explain that Miles is from another universe so he AND Peter Parker can both be Spider-man in the public consciousness, and if the story would involve the acknowledgement of a multiverse anyway then why not just do Spider-verse?

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