Devil's Advocate: Media Edition

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This thread is just about giving ideas that are contrary to commonly held beliefs. Nothing really too serious. Just present how you view things differently.

Something that have been a thorn in my side for the longest period of time. The idea that Goku is a bad person. A lot of people cite his bad parenting, his self centered ways, and his lust for fighting above all else as reasons why he's a bad person. I think they are completely wrong.

I think the entire reality around Goku are bad people, and they try to spin it onto Goku.

A few things to get in order. First, He has had a Brain Injury that was severe enough to change his personality (scroll to number 1). Two, The Flying Nimbus Cloud. You literally can not ride it if you don't have a pure heart. And for those who think that since he grew up, he might have become a jerk... Number three: The Spirit Bomb. An attack that can only be used by someone with a Pure Heart. Which also answers the question why no one else uses the technique.

After his Adoptive Grandfather dies, the next person he meets is Bulma... a woman who tries to shoot him, steal his only keepsake of his Grandfather (the only person who he loved and took care of him out of the kindness of his heart), and then manipulates Goku into coming along to get the dragon balls because she knew she couldn't take it away from him.

From that point on, everyone Goku meets tries to kill him or trick him... or have him fight people who have no issue killing him for their own benefit. The only person that takes him in for any amount of time is Master Roshi. Master Roshi, however, took this as a chance to get a young boy to bring him a hot woman to ogle.

No one tries to teach Goku about the world. About education. I don't even rightly know how he knows how to read. No one actually teaches him about the world around him, they just yell at him when he doesn't know what they had to learn themselves with families and people who cared about them. People only seem to care about him when they need saving.

Goku is a bad father? He doesn't know what family is really. He doesn't even know what a healthy relationship is. Everyone he is friends with has tried to either kill him or use him. There is no exception to this. Even Trunks took out his sword and tested him to see if he could trust the fate of the world on his shoulders.

And Let's be real, if Goku wasn't as strong as Trunks needed him to be, he would have cut Goku up.

Sure, people like Goku. But no one cares about Goku. In terms of his actual well being. People yell that he should be a better father. We're talking about the boy who thought Marriage was a type of food, and that didn't stop his eventual wife from saying "...Oh shit, cut my weird little girl dreams, this boy needs far more help than I thought".

Also, that doesn't stop her from yelling at him to get a job. Doing what? He was trained for what? A Lawyer? A Doctor? A police officer? No one taught him how to be a human, yet everyone gets on his case that he's not like us.

That's the entire world failing Goku. Not the other way around.

Anyway, that's my Devil's Advocate. You got any?

Goku isn't a bad person. Goku is mentally challenged, and the only thing that he's good at is fighting because he is literally built for that purpose. You can't really fault the guy for wanting to do the one thing that he's good at.

Edit: I'm also fairly sure Chi-Chi raped him, which would explain why he's afraid of her.

Goblin Slayer! encapsulates most everything wrong with the current animation/manga/light novel industry. It's Vampire Hunter D with worse characters, a lack of world building, a fundamental misunderstanding as to why guilds exist, and is somehow more gratuitous then, well, Vampire Hunter D.

The only thing that could make it worse is if the eponymous Slayer was some schmuck who was pulled into that world from the "real" world.

ObsidianJones:
This thread is just about giving ideas that are contrary to commonly held beliefs. Nothing really too serious. Just present how you view things differently.

Technically that's different from Devil's Advocate. DA is more advocating for a position you don't agree with, but can at least defend.

Anyway, there's far too many examples where I fall outside the majority to discuss, so I'll just wait and see if anyone says anything here I can strongly agree/disagree with.

Pretty sure Roshi taught Goku to read and do math when he trained him. Basic education was part of their training, and I'm fairly sure that wasn't anime only.

Handsome Jack is the hero and the Vault Hunters are the villains. See, most people see either that or the opposite as the case. And I think differently. I think that Jack and the Vault Hunters are all power mad, violence obsessed, assassins and murderers; just like all of the rest of the bandits and such on Pandora. The actual protagonists of the story, I think are the Atlas and Dahl Corporations. Yes they were making weapons out of found alien artifacts... but at some point both withdrew from Pandora. Each leaving behind significant amounts of valuable equipment and manpower. Had they just extracted everything they could and then left their workers and soldiers to die... or had they discovered how powerful the alien artifacts were and decided that leaving and covering everything up might just be better for the rest of the galaxy? I think its possible that Jack and the Vault Hunters are fighting over the power that could prove to be the end for the human race... and its Atlas and Dahl that are trying to stop that power from emerging and spreading in order to save the galaxy and all of its paying customer inhabitants.

altnameJag:
Goblin Slayer! encapsulates most everything wrong with the current animation/manga/light novel industry. It's Vampire Hunter D with worse characters, a lack of world building, a fundamental misunderstanding as to why guilds exist, and is somehow more gratuitous then, well, Vampire Hunter D.

The only thing that could make it worse is if the eponymous Slayer was some schmuck who was pulled into that world from the "real" world.

...... Did you even read the thread title? I thought most people thought this? (Admittedly I know very little about the series myself)

Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.

CoCage:

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.

It's an ok reply, but I'd have Devil's Advocated it up a lot more. Kind of like this:

Ok, so Deadpool was created in 1991 by Rob Liefeld because he wanted his own Wolverine or Spider-Man. This original Deadpool turned out a typical 90's edgy villain, while also basically a copy of DC's Deathstroke because Liefeld seemingly can't create an original character.

Then Deadpool got his own series in 1997, helmed by Joe Kelly, who turned him into a parody of the gritty anti-heroes that were so in vogue at the time. That anti-hero bit mostly came to pass because a decade earlier writers like Alan Moore and Frank Miller created a few dark and violent comics that deconstructed the superhero genre. These comics enjoyed quite a bit of commercial and critical success. Other writers, like Liefeld, saw this and wanted their own slice of that pie. So they made their own versions, but most completely missed the point, thinking just dark and violent would be enough. Thus the grimdark 90's anti-hero was born. The kind Deadpool parodied, quite succesfully, before he was himself flanderized into "lulz, so random!".

Deadpool exists because of events that came before. He's a symptom, not a cause. He didn't ruin comics.

Watchmen, V for Vendetta and The Dark Knight Returns did.

CoCage:

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.

No this comedy is different now compared to the comedy we had back then.

Samtemdo8:

CoCage:

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Deadpool did not ruin crap. There was comedy in superhero movies long before he got his own adaption. Now while he does have some influence on certain movies, there will always be comedic moments and those films regardless of his movies succeeded or not. Hell, Marvel still has comedic moments in their movies.

No this comedy is different now compared to the comedy we had back then.

Dude, that's life. Sometimes writing styles change for the worse or better. Comedy in superheroes movies are going to change at some point. Deadpool or no Deadpool.

I don't know how contrary this opinion is but, I think that the MCU has done more harm to the movie industry (superhero movies in particular) than good, or at the very least has changed the industry in a negative way.
It seems to me that before the MCU started if a movie made at least twice it's budget back it was considered a success and most movies were their own contained stories that had a clear beginning, middle and end and the occasional mild sequel hook (think 'Bond Will Return' or the Joker card scene in Batman Begins. But following the MCU a lot of movies strike me as half-finished stories and setups for further sequels. And they have to make an obscene amount of money globally to even be considered an adequate film.
Plus there's the issue that any movie that doesn't follow the MCU pattern of being light-hearted and filled with sarcastic and snarky quips being thrown out by every character it's immediately lambasted as being 'grimdark' and subsequently savaged by movie critics.

It kinda makes sense for there to be racism and racial profiling in Zootropolis, seeing as just a few thousand years ago one race lived off eating the other. And then there's the fact that certain species are 100 times weaker/stronger than other species. Sure, maybe for a rabbit you can make an exception to join the police force, but what if a mouse wants to join or one of those sloths?

And while were at it, it makes sense in the X-Men universe too.

Staying with superheroes, the romance between Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy doesn't work. Harley Quinn is too infatuated with the Joker to ever care about anyone else. If she stop caring about Joker she'd stop being Harley Quinn. And Poison Ivy hates and looks down on humans, so I doubt she'd ever get physically involved with one. They work great as a criminal duo, but lovers.. no.

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Uuuhm, Spider-Man says hello.

Casual Shinji:
It kinda makes sense for there to be racism and racial profiling in Zootropolis, seeing as just a few thousand years ago one race lived off eating the other. And then there's the fact that certain species are 100 times weaker/stronger than other species. Sure, maybe for a rabbit you can make an exception to join the police force, but what if a mouse wants to join or one of those sloths?

And while were at it, it makes sense in the X-Men universe too.

Staying with superheroes, the romance between Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy doesn't work. Harley Quinn is too infatuated with the Joker to ever care about anyone else. If she stop caring about Joker she'd stop being Harley Quinn. And Poison Ivy hates and looks down on humans, so I doubt she'd ever get physically involved with one. They work great as a criminal duo, but lovers.. no.

Samtemdo8:
Deadpool ruined Superheroes. Because of him Superheroes will never be taken seriously and will forever be stuck as always being seen as silly thus it must act silly and only silly. Because of Deadpool we got an obnoxious amount of jokes and fourth wall breaking references in every Superhero thing ever and whatever attempts at actual seriousness they try to tell their story is ruined by a quick gag that completely ruins the tension and tone.

Uuuhm, Spider-Man says hello.

And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.

Well, here's some of my pet unpopular opinions. I can probably come up with more if I think about it long enough.

Star Wars is still good (And the prequels were also mostly fine)
Alien is still good
Batman v Superman was the best superhero movie ever made
Michael Bay is one of the best visual directors currently working and there's some undeniable artistic merit to what he does
The Marvel Cinematic Universe has never produced anything particularly good and at least some of the earlier movies had obvious conservative subtext
Christopher Nolan is actually not very talented
Joss Whedon is a very hit and miss writer and a godawful director
Shattered Memories is secretly the second best Silent Hill game (and really should have gotten a PC port at some point)
The television series as an artistic medium peaked in the late 60s with The Prisoner and still hasn't caught up with it.

Samtemdo8:
And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.

How is he the most irresponsible superhero? His whole gimmick is that he constantly sacrifices personal happiness for the greater good. If he was actually irresponsible he never would've donned the costume and just kept on making money beating the shit out of wrestlers.

But anyway, Spider-Man did the whole wisecracking super hero before Deadpool. And even if it didn't, what exactly did Deadpool influence? For the longest time Deadpool was considered too obscure to even put on film, and when it finally did happen (correctly) all it really did was pave the way for an R-rated Wolverine movie. That's it. At best it's prompted DC to (unfortunately) turn Harley Quinn into their own Deadpool. Like, point me to any other super hero (movie) clearly influenced by Deadpool.

Casual Shinji:

Samtemdo8:
And I thank Raimi for not making Peter into a complete Clown of a person.

Seriously though why does he have the moniker of "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility?" when time after time he has proven to be the most irresponsible superhero ever?

I vote DC settles Marvel in court to buy the rights of the moniker so they can apply it to Superman.

How is he the most irresponsible superhero?

Don't ask me, I am just taking Linkara's word for it in his One More Day review.

Yeah, its amazing how much long held beliefs can get shattered when someone actually tells me what is actually the opposite.

Look I just feel like mabye I am just getting too old for Superheroes now that I think back. They all had silly shit. Superman the Animated Series had fucking Mxyzptlk in all his goofyness. Teen Titans in all its anime whackyness.

No wonder I only remember the actually serious, amazing, and adult episodes from those shows like Metallo in Superman and Red X/Trigon episodes in Teen Titans.

And no wonder I moved on to things like V for Vendetta, Watchmen, and Vertigo comics at one point in time.

Well...

I still think Spider-Man 2, while not a bad film, is overrated.

I never had a problem with 4Kids' anime dubs. I can see why people dislike them, but I have a better tolerance for dubs than some people. Plus, their take on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is my favorite take on the franchise (up until a certain point, anyway).

That's all I got so far...

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
How is he the most irresponsible superhero?

Don't ask me, I am just taking Linkara's word for it in his One More Day review.

Yeah, its amazing how much long held beliefs can get shattered when someone actually tells me what is actually the opposite.

So because somebody said so you're echoing it? You just take someone's word on it without actually figuring out whether you think it's true..? You claim something, but then when I ask how or why you say 'Don't ask me, some guy said it.' -- Please tell how I'm suppose to have a genuine discussion with you.

Casual Shinji:

Samtemdo8:

Casual Shinji:
How is he the most irresponsible superhero?

Don't ask me, I am just taking Linkara's word for it in his One More Day review.

Yeah, its amazing how much long held beliefs can get shattered when someone actually tells me what is actually the opposite.

So because somebody said so you're echoing it? You just take someone's word on it without actually figuring out whether you think it's true..? You claim something, but then when I ask how or why you say 'Don't ask me, some guy said it.' -- Please tell how I'm suppose to have a genuine discussion with you.

We can have one now by you explaining to me how Spiderman does act responsible and how right or wrong Linkara was in his statement that Spiderman is irresponsible:

https://youtu.be/dR1wQkPaYWA?t=935

And on this I can assure you we can have a discussion and I insist you watch this part of the video.

Now actually re-watching that Linkara clip, now I remember why. In a comic book issue, Peter Parker mentions he doesn't have life insurence, he's going around doing hero stuff and appearently he never considers the fact that might die by a badguy or accident in his heroeing?

That sounds pretty irresponsible.

Uplay is a good thing. Ubisoft makes a lot of mistakes and bad choices, but Uplay is not one of them. Unlike Epic or EA, Ubisoft's own personal service is not restricted, and instead it acts as both its own service AND a way to connect virtually every Ubisoft game you own into one cross-system account! Nintendo Switch, Xbox One, 360, PS3, PS4, PC, all the same Ubisoft account. Some achievements actually even give you some usable currency to get basically free DLC, and a lot of it is actually like, real content!

Also, atleast for most of us on this site, and most gamers in general, Always Online is not really a big deal. This isn't the age of AOL. The only time Always Online is a fair issue is during blackouts, and then its only a problem if you have a system that works on its own battery.

CrazyGirl17:

I never had a problem with 4Kids' anime dubs. I can see why people dislike them, but I have a better tolerance for dubs than some people. Plus, their take on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is my favorite take on the franchise (up until a certain point, anyway).

That's all I got so far...

Same.

Saelune:

Also, atleast for most of us on this site, and most gamers in general, Always Online is not really a big deal. This isn't the age of AOL. The only time Always Online is a fair issue is during blackouts, and then its only a problem if you have a system that works on its own battery.

The always online thing is a problem when internet providers are constantly throttling and being douchbags in general to their customers. And also, because the infrastructure is still slow in a lot of areas.

And you shouldn't have to be always online when you're playing a single player game.

Samtemdo8:
Now actually re-watching that Linkara clip, now I remember why. In a comic book issue, Peter Parker mentions he doesn't have life insurence, he's going around doing hero stuff and appearently he never considers the fact that might die by a badguy or accident in his heroeing?

That sounds pretty irresponsible.

Linkara sucks and One More Day sucks. Come up with your own opinions.

Kenbo Slice:

Samtemdo8:
Now actually re-watching that Linkara clip, now I remember why. In a comic book issue, Peter Parker mentions he doesn't have life insurence, he's going around doing hero stuff and appearently he never considers the fact that might die by a badguy or accident in his heroeing?

That sounds pretty irresponsible.

Linkara sucks and One More Day sucks. Come up with your own opinions.

Yeah I stopped giving a damn about Linkara in recent years and only look back on his older work with nostalgia.

And One More Day indeed sucks and one of the prime examples of why I think Comic Books has gotten away with far worse shit writing and storytelling then any bad Superhero movie ever.

The Hobbit trilogy was good. Great even. It was wonderfully shot, the acting was good, the action scenes good, and it was great seeing Gandalf and Frodo again.
It is not as good as the LoTR trilogy sure, and maybe some of the filler wasn't needed, but it is certainly one of the best trilogies made.

Silentpony:
The Hobbit trilogy was good. Great even. It was wonderfully shot, the acting was good, the action scenes good, and it was great seeing Gandalf and Frodo again.
It is not as good as the LoTR trilogy sure, and maybe some of the filler wasn't needed, but it is certainly one of the best trilogies made.

Its the only series of movies that I actually liked in recent years. I haven't seen a movie that wow me since then.

Samtemdo8:

Silentpony:
The Hobbit trilogy was good. Great even. It was wonderfully shot, the acting was good, the action scenes good, and it was great seeing Gandalf and Frodo again.
It is not as good as the LoTR trilogy sure, and maybe some of the filler wasn't needed, but it is certainly one of the best trilogies made.

Its the only series of movies that I actually liked in recent years. I haven't seen a movie that wow me since then.

I get that people think it was a cash grab, splitting an 80-page story in 9 hours of movie, but I enjoyed every minute of it. I was happy to spend money for a ticket and buy them on DVD.

Looking at this thread, I think people misunderstand what "Devil's Advocate" actually means, or simply don't care, but alright:

twistedmic:
I don't know how contrary this opinion is but, I think that the MCU has done more harm to the movie industry (superhero movies in particular) than good, or at the very least has changed the industry in a negative way.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't blame the MCU for it per se, but it did kickstart the shared universe craze that...well, hasn't been that successful really.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Star Wars is still good (And the prequels were also mostly fine)

Ever since TFA, Star Wars is in "okay" territory for me. None of the Disney films have sunk to Phantom/Clones level, but none of them have reached Revenge level either.

Alien is still good

Agree. While we've had duds like Prometheus and Resurrection, I think Alien 3 and Covenant are criminally underrated. And I shouldn't even have to explain Alien and Aliens.

Batman v Superman was the best superhero movie ever made
Michael Bay is one of the best visual directors currently working and there's some undeniable artistic merit to what he does

Um...

The Marvel Cinematic Universe has never produced anything particularly good and at least some of the earlier movies had obvious conservative subtext

...such as?

I can maybe think of Iron Man 2, with Tony refusing to hand over his suit to the government, but that's about it.

CrazyGirl17:
Well...

I still think Spider-Man 2, while not a bad film, is overrated.

Amazing Spider-Man 2 is underrated.

Yeah, I said that.

Silentpony:
The Hobbit trilogy was good. Great even. It was wonderfully shot, the acting was good, the action scenes good, and it was great seeing Gandalf and Frodo again.
It is not as good as the LoTR trilogy sure, and maybe some of the filler wasn't needed, but it is certainly one of the best trilogies made.

I agree with all of that bar "one of the best trilogies made."

I think all three Hobbit films are good - even Battle of the Five Armies, though it straddles the line between "good" and "okay." That said, I can't call it one of the best trilogies ever. It's a trilogy of competently made films that are fun, but that's about it.

Hawki:
SNIP

I guess my reasoning is that there are so few actual trilogies that it'd fall into a Top 10 simply by dint of its cinematography, acting, music, etc...

So, unpopular opinions thread for media?

Marik2:
So, unpopular opinions thread for media?

And the thing is we already have an unpopular opinions thread that is still open. Other than the Deadpool reply, I see no other reason to go through this again.

Marik2:
So, unpopular opinions thread for media?

CoCage:
And the thing is we already have an unpopular opinions thread that is still open. Other than the Deadpool reply, I see no other reason to go through this again.

I was actually asking people to explain their sides. A counter to the prevailing ideas, but that doesn't mean unpopular.

IE my thing with Goku. If you search, there are a ton of people who ignore the lore, the brain injury and how Goku has been treated. They expect an alien who's barely taught anything but fighting how to be a responsible dad and provide for his family.

I'm giving a counterargument to their complaints about Goku. It's not as simple as "I hate cheese and you should as well". That's an opinion. Something I can't prove or back up.

I can look over the entirety of Dragon Ball media (as well as you can as well) and see that while sometimes people are kind to Goku, no one ever really takes the time to bring Goku into the world as a functional adult, yet people yell at him for not being able to function like we do. I'm Advocating on Goku's behalf. If people take it as just unpopular opinions part two, I'll reword it to make it clearer that this is supposed to be actually Advocating for or against a subject.

So to sum up... to the both of you, no.

Specter Von Baren:

altnameJag:
Goblin Slayer! encapsulates most everything wrong with the current animation/manga/light novel industry. It's Vampire Hunter D with worse characters, a lack of world building, a fundamental misunderstanding as to why guilds exist, and is somehow more gratuitous then, well, Vampire Hunter D.

The only thing that could make it worse is if the eponymous Slayer was some schmuck who was pulled into that world from the "real" world.

...... Did you even read the thread title? I thought most people thought this? (Admittedly I know very little about the series myself)

It's this season's "dark and edgy" anime, like Made in Abyss or Attack on Titan before it.

It's implausibly popular. I don't get it.

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