How would you reboot the Star Wars Prequel trilogy?

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The Star Wars Prequels aren't looked at fondly among fans. What was hyped up to be the epic origin story of how the original story happened, ended up being a series of bland, boring, convoluted and anti-climactic films that only raised more questions than answers. While not as hated as the Disney-era films are now for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe, the prequels are still seen as a joke, and many fans would rather forget they never happened.

Let's say, for some weird reason, LucasFilm and Disney decide to completely retcon the original prequels, and start over again with a new origin story. How would you go about fixing the mess that George Lucas and Fox made with the original prequels? How would you make a Star Wars Prequel Trilogy that both gives backstory to set up the first 3 movies, while also being more faithful to the original films?

In a basic sense, I'd first put more emphasis on action/adventure, not make up random shit to explain Star Wars Terminology on the spot, and absolutely say no to Jar-Jar Binks. I'd also make Anikin a more interesting and likable character who starts off as a genuinely nice person who believes in the Jedi philosophy, but is slowly led down a dark path, and now has to choose whether to stay with the Sith, or return to his Jedi origins. Basically, give us a more believable explanation and conflict as to why he became Darth Vader, rather than some whiny kid who becomes a Jedi because it's cool,

That's not interesting, that's lazy.

But how else would you make a new prequel trilogy?

I wouldn't. The prequels are flawed but overall fine. Same as the Disney movies.

Constantly trying to filter out the things that don't work is the reason there still isn't an unedited home release of the Original Trilogy. Because Lucas kept screwing around with them, trying to improve them. I don't think that's a good idea. The movies have been made, warts and all, just leave them be.

I've talked about it on a different thread but my ideas boil down to the following:

-The first movie should not have little kid anakin, unless it's for like a few minutes when introduced. Start with teenage anakin because that's where the bulk of the character development happens.
-The plot of Phantom Pai...Phantom Menace could have easily been reduced to like one act with nothing lost. Use the first movie to get the clone wars either heavily set up or actually going, not waiting until the end of the 2nd movie of 3.
-Crib a lot from the Clone Wars series. Focus on Anakin as a young Jedi and how he slowly drifts away from Obi-Wan and Yoda and more towards Palpatine. Develop the hell out of his character, particularly how insubordinate he can be while often getting things done, and how he sees this as a way to bring the war to an end quickly.
-Show more Emphasis on how the Republic is slowly becoming the Empire as the clone wars drag on. Clone Wars was very good about this, with lots of subtle touches(the Clone Trooper armor slowly evovlves, the equipment gradually becomes more imperial, etc) and outright showing Palapatine consolidating power in the name of preserving the Republic.

Really, lack of proper development is most of the prequels problems, so even though the series is "about" Anakin becoming Vader, he doesn't get enough transition time to make it believable. Instead, he comes across as an entitled shit who throws fits whenever he's told he can't be a Jedi Master right off the bat and jumps pretty much straight into Child Murder from there.

I would keep Ewan McGregor and change everything else. Details don't matter much because those movies can't get any worse.

Can we just link to that other thread where this exact question was put forward? I'd use the site forum search function but... we all know how busted it is.

Wait- here it is, I found it.

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.1030969-Its-1995-Youre-tasked-with-writing-the-Star-Wars-prequel-and-sequel-trilogies

Even better, it's still a young enough thread that new posts can just be put in there.

I'd probably do what the new sequels are doing and just shove all the political machinations off-screen entirely.

Before the prequels, I really did want to know how the empire formed. Now that I know it was because of tariffs and non-confidence votes I kinda wish I'd remained in the dark.

I wouldn't reboot it all. In my eyes, the Clone Wars TV show IS the prequels. The overall plot of the prequels wasn't such a bad idea. Palpatine uses the war to not only sway the public in his favor but to dull the senses of the Jedi, letting them trust their troops so being slaughtered by clones was all the much easier.

The execution... ehhhh

The prequels just needed to focus more on the Clone Wars more (which would have meant getting to see Anakin slowly fall to the dark side), and removing or glossing over all the dumb ass shit they had (all of JarJar, majority of the romance in Ep II, etc).

There are also many things about the prequels that are just objectively bad. Lots of visual effects, editing, acting. To this day I can't see Natalie Portman as anything other than a terrible actress.

Basically, I wouldn't really reboot the prequels, just "remaster" them.

TheMisterManGuy:
for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

I don't think it's a good idea to begin with. But if you have to make prequel movies, you should make them the as movies, not as a series of cameos and references to the original movies. Don't set things on Tattoine, no Jabba the Hutt, no Greedo, no explanation of why Bobba Fett hates the Skywalkers because he didn't in the originals. Also, no midichlorians unless you are going to do something cool with them. I'm not sure if they were trying to make SW sci-fi rather than space fantasy by explaining the Force, or if they were trying (and badly failing) to recapture Yoda saying how all living things are linked from Empire Strikes Back. No elected Queen for a limited term.

As to what you should actually do, instead of what not to do...hard to say. Personally, I think the romance between Amidala and Anakin wasn't a bad idea, just (like with everything), they didn't try getting it right, because they knew SW fans would pay for any rubbish, and that mindset dooms your project.

Reboot? Naw...

More Obi Wan vs Vader. How about a movie or two of Vader hunting down Jedi?

Said it before and will say it again: Jar Jar Binks origin story. Dark and gritty. I want to know what sort of intergalactic child abuse is responsible!

I wouldn't, and the timing of this video is particularly good because Hello Future Me released a video on the problems with prequels recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMaZcCEm2Gs

Don't worry, I'm not just "gonna leave this here", but I figurd I'd link to it because it does dovetail with why I wouldn't do it. Taking events from established canon and fleshing them out is a minefield with radioactive mutant bears and dragons patrolling. It's possible, but it's pretty much a no win scenario, and I can't James Kirk my way out of this one. And Han;'s solution of shooting first seems ill-advised, and Lucas shot first and thought later.

If I had a gun to my head, the main thing I'd do is try and make Anakin more likable. I think the Clone Wars did a good job of making me care about the inevitable fall of Ani. The Prequels already make him kind of a dick as a teenager. It's not "I'm a shining Jedi with a dark streak," it's a Denis Leary video.

I think the best thing to do with the prequels is to leave them in the dustbin of history and try and tell stories that are in the universe, but not to tie them directly back to the events established by the OT.

I'd also avoid things like KOTOR, because I would never ever ever please the fanbase.

I don't have a clear story in my mind, but here are some points:
-Make it so that the Jedi are in decline. It always felt to me that the Jedi were becoming less important on a galactic scale when Obi-Wan became a Jedi. Sort of like the witchers.

-No dumb celibacy rule for the Jedi

-Make Anakin a likable guy with a short temper. Make us see how he's really struggling with how the Jedi should act. Make him realize that the Jedi are in decline and maybe he wants to stop that in ways that would be against the Order's principles.

-No Sith. Get rid of them. The Rule of Two is, problematic, to put it mildly. Have the Emperor and Vader be just Force users.

DarthCoercis:

TheMisterManGuy:
for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking. That doesn't mean they're disrespecting. The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

Jute88:
It always felt to me that the Jedi were becoming less important on a galactic scale when Obi-Wan became a Jedi. Sort of like the witchers.

New idea: make Obi-Wan a Witcher.

-Make Anakin a likable guy with a short temper. Make us see how he's really struggling with how the Jedi should act. Make him realize that the Jedi are in decline and maybe he wants to stop that in ways that would be against the Order's principles.

I sort of like hast they did with Ani in the third movie in the sense that he was torn between loyalties to the senator and the Jedi, and what really pushed him over the edge was when one of the Masters behaved as extremely as the people he was supposed to be stopping. Granted, it was mired in some really bad context, and it pretty mujch came out of Lucas' ass in the third movie, but still.

If Anakin had been likable and if they operated more in those tones, the movies might have worked better. And you could still have your "no Sith" rule by not having a senator who is also a Sith.

Though Ian was one of the best parts of the prequels

trunkage:
And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

Bikini Leia is pretty much the equivalent of MASH using the term "negro", to boot. You won't see a modern film of most stripes using the word, but it existed at a time when the word was more acceptable. Though MASH was on so long they removed some of those elements.

Star Wars was progressive and had messages about peace, love and an end to war, but it was still a science fiction/fantasy movie in the 1970s, and Jedi was not so far removed from the era that people would blink at fanservice of the sort.

Even the prequels managed to avoid this, far as I can recall. They did a lot of things more progressively because they were a couple decades later, and the times had changed, so it can't even be blamed on Disney.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking.[/quote]

Then you do know what they mean. "Disrespecting the originals" is a way of saying "they didn't go with the headcanon I've built up over the last 30-40 years."

The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

Arguably, though to be fair, Luke was always a quitter. He was such a quitter he's quit more times in the movies than there are movies. He folds faster than some sort of automatic folding machine. That after a major failure, Luke would go back to character not only makes sense, it's sort of the theme of the old characters in the new movies: Han goes back to smuggling, Leia goes back to resisting, and Luke goes back to quitting. Chewie goes back to being the guy who keeps his idiot human companion alive, and R2 goes back being a plot device.

Tat the Jedi are a line of quitters may never have come into play.

Something Amyss:
Chewie goes back to being the guy who keeps his idiot human companion alive

*Makes uncomfortable noise*

trunkage:

DarthCoercis:

TheMisterManGuy:
for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking. That doesn't mean they're disrespecting. The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

Yeah I gotta echo that the main problem with last Jedi is that it tried to do Empire Strikes back AND Return of the Jedi at the same time (And the gambling planet sub-plot goes nowhere and barely has anything to say). And both Poe and Holdo are idiots. Also, it was kind of paradoxical in that it kept copying everything but also ripped things up at the last second. Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

Hey, more power to you if you want to rip up established trends. The thing is, there's a general rule for media. For everything you take out, you have to put something else in to replace it. Last Jedi took a lot of stuff out and replaced it with...nothing. Apart from a few things that tried to make the universe come off as complex but was more eye rolling. Someone was selling weapons to both the First Order AND the pathetically undermanned Resistance? Yeah, I'm sure the twenty or so fighters sold would be worth the First Order blowing a hole in his head when they inevitably found out.

But I gotta say, Last Jedi is a bad movie, but it's not any worse than the prequels.

erttheking:
*Makes uncomfortable noise*

Relax, Chewie, I fixed the hyperdrive last week!

Yeah I gotta echo that the main problem with last Jedi is that it tried to do Empire Strikes back AND Return of the Jedi at the same time (And the gambling planet sub-plot goes nowhere and barely has anything to say). And both Poe and Holdo are idiots. Also, it was kind of paradoxical in that it kept copying everything but also ripped things up at the last second. Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

Hey, more power to you if you want to rip up established trends. The thing is, there's a general rule for media. For everything you take out, you have to put something else in to replace it. Last Jedi took a lot of stuff out and replaced it with...nothing. Apart from a few things that tried to make the universe come off as complex but was more eye rolling. Someone was selling weapons to both the First Order AND the pathetically undermanned Resistance? Yeah, I'm sure the twenty or so fighters sold would be worth the First Order blowing a hole in his head when they inevitably found out.

But I gotta say, Last Jedi is a bad movie, but it's not any worse than the prequels.

My biggest problem is i was bored with pretty much any scene not involving Rey Luke, or Chewbacca. There were a couple of scenes with Kylo I didn't care about or I'd include him. None of the rest entertained me. I could complain that Finn and Poe were dumb and I could complain that the casino planet was pointless, but honestly, I could watch the best scenes on YouTube and probably take a half an hour.

I do have to agree with the whole "tearing things up" thing. A little subversion is fine, but when you subvert all the tropes it ends up as a mess. And it becomes boring. I call it "Joss Whedon" Syndrome, because I experience it all the time when I watch something he's written.

erttheking:

Something Amyss:
Chewie goes back to being the guy who keeps his idiot human companion alive

*Makes uncomfortable noise*

trunkage:

DarthCoercis:

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking. That doesn't mean they're disrespecting. The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

Yeah I gotta echo that the main problem with last Jedi is that it tried to do Empire Strikes back AND Return of the Jedi at the same time (And the gambling planet sub-plot goes nowhere and barely has anything to say). And both Poe and Holdo are idiots. Also, it was kind of paradoxical in that it kept copying everything but also ripped things up at the last second. Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

Hey, more power to you if you want to rip up established trends. The thing is, there's a general rule for media. For everything you take out, you have to put something else in to replace it. Last Jedi took a lot of stuff out and replaced it with...nothing. Apart from a few things that tried to make the universe come off as complex but was more eye rolling. Someone was selling weapons to both the First Order AND the pathetically undermanned Resistance? Yeah, I'm sure the twenty or so fighters sold would be worth the First Order blowing a hole in his head when they inevitably found out.

But I gotta say, Last Jedi is a bad movie, but it's not any worse than the prequels.

The whole of the time between Hoth and Cloud City was a waste of time so Luke can get a couple of days of training. While the casino was a waste of time, at least it wasnt 80% of the cast doing nothing, and it pushed the Poe storyline along.

I also wonder how much difference it would have made if Leia had the Holdo storyline. You can ignore Holdo becuase we have no relationship with her. But betraying Leia? That might have been more interesting

trunkage:
The whole of the time between Hoth and Cloud City was a waste of time so Luke can get a couple of days of training. While the casino was a waste of time, at least it wasnt 80% of the cast doing nothing, and it pushed the Poe storyline along.

I also wonder how much difference it would have made if Leia had the Holdo storyline. You can ignore Holdo becuase we have no relationship with her. But betraying Leia? That might have been more interesting

I'm about 90 % sure this was their original intention and it's what they would have done if Fisher had been in better health. Admiral Holdo was a very obvious substitute for Leia. From a screenwriting perspective there would have been no reason to have two sassy older women who occupy high ranking positions in the Resistance and act in a way that puts them at odds with their younger subordinates. The only thing that distinguishes Holdo from Leia is having funky hair and being played by a recognizable character actress. It's one of the few things about the movies that I find unfortunate. Leia spending most of the movie in a, somewhat contrived, coma while all of her scenes go to a new character the viewer have no connection to, is pretty sad. But what can you do when the actress was practically on her deathbed?

It's my understanding that there's a fan re-cut made by, of all people, Topher Grace, that trims the Prequels down to one film, and it results in a leaner, more satisfying experience. I don't know as though there's anything that needs to be re-written, but the strength of the original trilogy lay just as much in what WASN'T explained as what was, and I'd very much like to see how the story plays out when it's like... 4+ hours shorter. Quite frankly, I don't see why an origin story would need to be 3 movies anyhow.

erttheking:
Yeah I gotta echo that the main problem with last Jedi is that it tried to do Empire Strikes back AND Return of the Jedi at the same time (And the gambling planet sub-plot goes nowhere and barely has anything to say). And both Poe and Holdo are idiots. Also, it was kind of paradoxical in that it kept copying everything but also ripped things up at the last second. Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

Hey, more power to you if you want to rip up established trends. The thing is, there's a general rule for media. For everything you take out, you have to put something else in to replace it. Last Jedi took a lot of stuff out and replaced it with...nothing. Apart from a few things that tried to make the universe come off as complex but was more eye rolling. Someone was selling weapons to both the First Order AND the pathetically undermanned Resistance? Yeah, I'm sure the twenty or so fighters sold would be worth the First Order blowing a hole in his head when they inevitably found out.

But I gotta say, Last Jedi is a bad movie, but it's not any worse than the prequels.

Gotta disagree. The Prequels are light years better than the last Jedi (see what I did there?).

The Prequels had the inevitable task of creating a bland and peaceful existence in a galaxy specifically designed for the average movie goer's wish fulfillment. You know, a Galaxy of the man against us. But my ragtag team of misfits and hot women in Gold Bikinis will ride in our sweet rides and show them what for!

The Prequels had to show the reality of peace time. It's dull. The Galactic Senate, while having no real power over the Jedi, asked them to help with diplomatic relations and peace keeping. But all Jedi weren't just going off and slicing fools left and right.

Hell, a good part of the Jedi Order was the the service order. With the Agricultural Corps being the largest of that number. That was seconded by the Exploration Corps.

The Prequels had to establish what was lost. I feel they did that. It wasn't as exciting as flying your ship to blow up a moon sized battle station. But it was the preamble to see what the Empire truly did for the Galaxy. While the Prequels aren't my favorite, I can appreciate them for setting up how truly bad the Empire made things.

The Last Jedi... just... Oh God, it was bad. It was bad all over. Wasted potential, Dumb decisions... I still don't understand why in a fleet of how many ships, not one of them decided to do what Holdo did. They were all faced with the same situation, and supposedly had the same training. Why did it only occur to Holdo?

Finn just became more of the butt monkey. Like, as much as I like Finn, I honest to God have no idea what he actually brings to the story. His First Order training never seems to come into real use. He's not an exceptional fighter. He fails in almost everything he does.

But so does the cast. Poe's only purpose in the movie was to be told "You don't know what the fuck you're talking about". And he doesn't. His first action in the movie really screws over a lot of people... and it was meaningless!

Rose is there to... set up a Love Triangle between Rey, herself, and Finn, I guess? But Finn doesn't even really seem to be into her. He just cares for her as he does all his allies. And Rey is affected by that for some reason? There was never a hint of romance between them before. Even attraction. Just a mutual happiness that they both got each other out of bad situations a movie ago.

She will always be my Princess will Always Be My Princess.

Kylo Ren comes onto the screen and all I can ever think of this. He's like if a Spencer's Gifts and a Hot Topic got together and had a human baby. I can never take him seriously when I used to go to High School with dozens of guys like him.

Snoke was... a waste.

But the creme de la creme. The absolute insult to all of Star Wars Fiction is how they did Luke. From the bravest Jedi there was to "Oops, made a mistake. Everything is a lie even though everything is my fault. Better not try to fix a thing".

I hate the Last Jedi for how they made everything useless and the only quality that the resistance constantly show is failure. The Prequels are just a tad boring and have really bad pacing. But each movie has some high points. Darth Maul and his reveal, How Obi Wan had to mature and face his weaknesses in an instant, Mace Windu, Yoda, Dooku, Grievous.

The most you have is Holdo's maneuver. But it's such a simple one that it's robbed from any real importance since any other ships could have done it at any time. So something that should have been cool makes me even angrier because I was literally yelling to all the other ships that they should have done it before.

The Last Jedi does far, far worse than anything that comes before it. It literally takes Kylo Ren and Rey and say "These are the only people that matter". The Last Jedi pulls a Dragon Ball Z with Kylo Ren as Vegita and Rey as Goku. Finn is useless, Poe is useless, Rose is useless, Luke is now a whiny little brat. All agency has been stripped from our ragtag group and placed solely on Rey's shoulders. That's something the old movies never did.

Hell, Lando did what he did for his city. Because Vader would have destroyed it all. He made a choice that he regretted and tried to enforce with one of the literally most powerful men in the Galaxy. And he did everything he could to protect his friends and his companions. And once Vader betrayed him, he got his people out of Cloud City and then turned to help the Rebels. He did something. I can't think of anything worthwhile the Rebels did in the Last Jedi.

That movie turned them from Underdogs that will get the job done to Sad sacks that you just wish would go away.

... I dislike the Movie, is what I'm saying.

Sidebar, I would kill for a Star Wars-Esque Show or Series of the Exploration Corps. Washed out Jedi who explore space and make contact with other cultures? It would print money. New Dangers, New Powers, a rotating cast. It would be amazing.

erttheking:

Luke goes into scary dark cave and has a dark vision of Darth Vader. Rey goes into a cave and finds...nothing.

This isn't really ripping it up, it is actually an exact mirror of Luke's vision. Luke's greatest fear is that he'll become like Darth Vader, hence the vision of Luke's face in Vader's mask after Luke defeats the Vader specter. Rey's greatest fear is that she's all alone and that her parents weren't special people who had to abandon her, so she sees nothing but herself in her vision.

It works pretty well as a callback to ESB and it firmly solidifies Rey's arc as being not primarily about learning to be a Jedi but coming to terms with the fact that she can be special even if her parents were deadbeats and overcoming her fear of loneliness. This fear of loneliness is also a major part of her arc as it relates to saving Finn, being tutored by Luke (and making him a surrogate dad) and her stubborn belief in Kylo Ren's good sides, because she desperately wants to feel a connection to someone, anyone.

There are quite a few weak parts in TLJ, but Rey's vision is not one of them. In fact, I'll argue the opposite, it is one of the strongest, most character focused scenes in a movie that's generally about flawed characters and the consequences their flaws has.

trunkage:

DarthCoercis:

TheMisterManGuy:
for their blatantly hamfisted SJW messages and disrespect to the original universe

Dude, no. Please, stop whinging about ess-jay-dub-yoos. The disney movies are fine, especially Rogue One. They're certainly not "disrespectful".

And, other than bikini Leia, Star Wars was pretty SJW.

I have no idea what people are talking about when they say disrespect. Sure, the new movies aren't to your liking. That doesn't mean they're disrespecting. The problem with Luke in the Last Jedi is that he's copying Yoda and Obi Wan. Make a mistake? Fuck the universe then I'm going hobo. At least Luke ended up helping at the end. Obi Wan tripped a switch but then brought Vader to the good guys. Yoda just sat on his ass.

I don't think its quite the same. Luke became really depressed and bitter after his mistake and apparently fled before the First Order became dominant. Obi Wan and Yoda fled when they had already lost and had clear goals in mind for doing so. Obi Wan would watch over baby Luke while in the book version Yoda experienced a vision when fighting Palpathine which showed him training a new hero. They were biding their time rather than just abandoning everyone.

I've never been part of the ''Disney disrespect Star Wars!'' brigade but I do realize where they are coming from. The main hero of the series abandoned everyone, the marriage of the other two didn't work out and the world they created is overthrown by the remnants of the organisation they the Galaxy from before . I guess its easy to imagine the first movies didn't matter if everything that happened got undone a few decades later.

ObsidianJones:

But the creme de la creme. The absolute insult to all of Star Wars Fiction is how they did Luke. From the bravest Jedi there was to "Oops, made a mistake. Everything is a lie even though everything is my fault. Better not try to fix a thing".

I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

The thread kind of took a walk there, but I think as far as the original question goes I would try to frame the story more as a "rise and fall of Caesar" type of situation.

Rather than have Anakin act as a semi-gifted douche, make him into an adept jedi and politician, pressing for uncomfortable changes and gaining significant power both as a jedi-in-training and politician over the course of the movies. His political aspirations would be indicated to be due to his being raised as a slave giving him a desire to bring justice to the galaxy. They would be barely tolerated by the jedi council, due only to the fact that his aptitude and mission-success rate made him hard to punish. In the course of his political work he would meet and fall in love with the princess, and begin to consider both the future emperor (can't remember his name) and Obi-Wan as friends and mentors. I would want to take pains at this stage to reinforce the fact that Anakin is really good at being a jedi, and is becoming beloved by common people for his political actions - both these things would need to be leveraged for whispered-argument fodder between Obi and Anakin, as a method to communicate how much this is all pissing off the council, and how worried certain senators are getting about being replaced by a jedi.

By movie 2 (also, sorry, no child-anakin at all, do a time skip after saving him to at least late teens) start dropping hints of the internal issues with the council, the senate, and start positioning people from both groups against Anakin who feel he is overstepping his jedi bounds. Here we transition from whispered-argument to certain council/senate members outright telling Anakin to check his shit. Really grind in the injustice of it all too - make it clear that Anakin has been busting his ass to do more large scale good than either of the groups in recent memory, and now some wankers with poorly enacted ideals and asses only good for sitting on are trashing his work. At this stage the emperor needs to be doubling down on the "we're bros" angle, while simultaneously working to ensure more and more of the jedi appear to be turning on Anakin.

Then in the third movie combine a double wammy of Anakin trying to seek out his mother and becoming emotionally compromised in the face of the tragedy, with the jedi being fooled into taking action against Anakin because of a frame job. Instead of taking a dagger up the strap, Anakin survives - but is certain the jedi are making a power play to secure complete control over the senate. Shit gets heated all around, cue the major Obi-Wan Vs Anakin fight while the emperor uses the attack on Anakin as reason for the senate to "per-emptively defend themselves" from the jedi council. Anakin Vs Obi ends in a stalemate with both running to defend their interests from the other groups soldiers. Have the princess be critically injured trying to keep the peace in a firefight between senate forces and the jedi, Obi-Wan saves the kids but the princess dies in the process, Anakin loses what little he has left when he finds out she's gone and Obi took the kids, and then falls into the arms of the emperor.

With the jedi council appearing to have thrown down on the galactic governing group the Emperor secures and consolidates his power and individual planets start lashing out against jedi groups, blaming them for the sudden chaos interrupting galactic peace. The council dissolves, with the last remaining force users going into hiding while Anakin gets his Vader makeover. I dunno why he would need the makeover without the stupid high ground fell into lava shit. Maybe during a fight something happens that critically fucks up his lungs and the suit is basically a mobile iron lung keeping him breathing while he uses the force for everything else.

twistedmic:
I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

I mean going back to change and edit things is one of the most frequent criticisms levied against George Lucas, so I'd think trying to retcon the entire Prequel Trilogy would be a bit hypocritical. That being said! I think what I'd like to see more of is the Jedi Council being shown in the wrong more. That the Jedi are not in fact the good guys. It gets touched upon more in the Clone Wars series, but the effect being generals and soldiers is having on a supposedly peaceful order is not a good one, that it may be a corrupting influence. I mean, by Revenge of the Sith Mace Windu is willing to stage what is essentially a coup, imprisoning the legitimately elected leader of the Republic and putting his own faction in power. Having the Jedi slide more deliberately into shades of grey rather than be the shiny white paladins means Anakin's reasons for turning against are more than just "I am a whiny teen believing what this incredibly sinister old man tells me"

twistedmic:
It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here.

But let's be honest: if he burned his pizza., he totally would have quit over it.

ObsidianJones:

twistedmic:
I think you're minimizing the scope of Luke's mistake here. It's not like he forgot to tape The Price is Right or burned his frozen pizza here. His mistake led to several of his students fully turning to the dark side, his nephew chief among them, the rest of his students getting murdered and his temple burned to the ground and led to an unknown number of deaths once his nephew joined up with Snoke.
And all of this happened when he tried to 'fix' the galaxy by bringing back the Jedi Order.

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

You keep saying Luke should fix it. But his mentors never did. They sent Luke to do their job for them. I mean they could have helped but no. Let's Force Ghost outta here. That's going to defeat 2 Siths.

Let me be clear. I agree with your assessment of Luke. Luke was just copying what Jedis do. Their weak, unhelpful, arrogant and dont mind letting others commit genocide. It's the Jedi way

ObsidianJones:

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris. Pretty much every major character in the movie (barring Finn and Rose, who both have the opposite arc of finding themselves greater than they think) exhibit it to some degree and their arcs are largely defined by how they deal with their own hubris. Rey desperately wants to be the child of great people and wants to be a great hero, which causes her to rush off to redeem Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren murders Snoke in an act of petty defiance and takes over as Supreme Leader not because he had a plan, but because he didn't like Snoke gloating at him. Later Kylo allows the Resistance to escape certain death because he absolutely insists that he be allowed to duel Luke. Poe Dameron is so certain his way is the best that he gets the Resistance fleet wiped out and then nearly gets the entire Resistance destroyed. Holdo is so certain of her right due to chain of command that she doesn't even bother assuring her hotshot pilot commander that she has a plan, which makes him lash out with a stupid plan. Hux manages to get both the massive First Order ship in the opening destroyed and later allows Finn and Rose to escape certain death because he wants to drag out and savor his moments of victory instead of just winning. Phasma shares Hux's problem here.

In this context, Luke is another character who deals with his hubris. It was his certainty of his own greatness, as the guy who defeated the Emperor, that makes him unable to see Snoke's influence and it causes the destruction of his New Jedi Order and the deaths or falls of all his apprentices. Considering that Luke was the guy who spent most of his Jedi training in ANH and ESB complaining about how things couldn't be done and sulking at the challenge, it doesn't seem that far out of character to me for him to fall victim to the galaxy's most epic bout of self-pity when he inadvertently destroys his entire life's work.

So I stayed out of this thread until now, simply because I wouldn't reboot the prequel trilogy for various reasons. However, seeing that the subject's turned to Luke, I'll give my 2 cents.

I actually like the idea of Luke in TLJ, because it's ultimately a take on the weight of living up to one's legend, yet also emphasising the need of legends and the effect they can have on people.

We expect Luke to be perfect. That after defeating Vader, he was at the end of his journey. It's fitting that he goes on to train new Jedi. But with Ben, as the three flashbacks in TLJ show, all it takes is one moment of failure. Luke, being falliable, considers killing Ben. Only for a moment, before he draws back in shame. Unfortunately, it's this one moment of weakness, the one moment where he was less than perfect, is what triggers Ben to turn on him, and in turn, come to serve Snoke.

So, burdened by his shame, Luke becomes a recluse. I can understand why some people are put off with this, and if Luke had stayed on Ach-To throughout the movie and did nothing, I might have joined them. Still, he comes back at the end, sacrificing his own life to do so. He asks Rey what she wanted from him - did she expect him to just stride out and confront the First Order? The entire point of the AT-AT scene is showing why that wouldn't work, why you can achieve victory without direct confrontation (sounds very Jedi doesn't it). Luke is burdened by the weight of his own legend. However, the point of his arc is to accept that while he is mortal, normal people need legends. Legends can inspire them to greatness - the entire point of the final scene in the film is to emphasize this.

Least that's my take.

Gethsemani:

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris.

I pretty much agree. Though if I'm nitpicking, I'd say that if I had to sum up the theme of TLJ in one word, it would be "failure." Not that the film failed (though plenty would disagree), but the theme of failure, and how we learn from it, is interwoven into the story. Rey, Luke, Poe, and to an extent Finn all embody this. Ultimately, TLJ is a film where the protagonists pretty much fail at everything they set out to do, and it's only through Luke accepting the necessity of being the Jedi people expect him to be that disaster's averted.

Hawki:
Though if I'm nitpicking, I'd say that if I had to sum up the theme of TLJ in one word, it would be "failure."

Oh, for sure. Failure is definitely the main theme from which all others derive.

Gethsemani:

ObsidianJones:

I was trying to avoid spoilers, but if we're going all out on it...

So bear with me here: One of the main themes of The Last Jedi is arguably the cost and consequences of hubris. Pretty much every major character in the movie (barring Finn and Rose, who both have the opposite arc of finding themselves greater than they think) exhibit it to some degree and their arcs are largely defined by how they deal with their own hubris. Rey desperately wants to be the child of great people and wants to be a great hero, which causes her to rush off to redeem Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren murders Snoke in an act of petty defiance and takes over as Supreme Leader not because he had a plan, but because he didn't like Snoke gloating at him. Later Kylo allows the Resistance to escape certain death because he absolutely insists that he be allowed to duel Luke. Poe Dameron is so certain his way is the best that he gets the Resistance fleet wiped out and then nearly gets the entire Resistance destroyed. Holdo is so certain of her right due to chain of command that she doesn't even bother assuring her hotshot pilot commander that she has a plan, which makes him lash out with a stupid plan. Hux manages to get both the massive First Order ship in the opening destroyed and later allows Finn and Rose to escape certain death because he wants to drag out and savor his moments of victory instead of just winning. Phasma shares Hux's problem here.

In this context, Luke is another character who deals with his hubris. It was his certainty of his own greatness, as the guy who defeated the Emperor, that makes him unable to see Snoke's influence and it causes the destruction of his New Jedi Order and the deaths or falls of all his apprentices. Considering that Luke was the guy who spent most of his Jedi training in ANH and ESB complaining about how things couldn't be done and sulking at the challenge, it doesn't seem that far out of character to me for him to fall victim to the galaxy's most epic bout of self-pity when he inadvertently destroys his entire life's work.

I understand a good deal about this. I've stated a lot of these facts at my post responding to Ertheking.

I mentioned the toll of Luke's ego getting bruised, but I also hate him doing nothing about it. When Luke learned about his father in the Empire Strikes Back, he didn't go "Drat, I couldn't defeat the big bad. Let's go back to obscurity now". He summoned up his courage, he did what he could to become stronger, and he proceeded in his mission to deal with his father.

Be it hubris or him feeling it was his duty to confront Vader, he did it. And as the Force would have it, he submitted his body to absolute torture in efforts to redeem his father.

That's what Luke was. In Empire Strikes Back, he became too Heady with his minor advancements in the Force and ran off to take on Vader without being anywhere near ready. He lost his hand. He lost one of his closest companions. He lost the battle to Vader. He failed harder than anything in his life up to that point. And he rested up, powered up, and went about getting everything back.

In this, he lost his Nephew and his students. He got some killed and Ben turned the others to the Dark Side. Where was the same bravery that made him get right back up when he was down? Vader toyed with Luke when they first met, and Luke went right back into Vader's face in Return of the Jedi. Ben succumbed to Snoke's will and went seriously rogue. And instead of facing the problem before it turned into another disruption in peace for the Galaxy... all the evil and hatred he saw that would come from Ben if he fell to the Dark Side... He gave up.

He tried to right nothing. He did nothing. He didn't submit his body or his spirit to Ben in efforts to bring him back to the light, as he did with his Father before him. He didn't rest up and try to find someone close to him like he did with

I'm postulating that Luke being burned by his own Hubris but never giving up is literally Luke's defining Character Trait. And that was ignored here. He didn't try to atone, he didn't reach beyond himself. He just flatly gave up in one of the most dire situations imaginable. A situation he knew that would led to the resurgence of another Empire, the deaths of millions and another Dark Lord of the Sith.

And look, I don't even mind the self-pity. In fact, I think he should have still had it. But I think it should have came about with him stopping Ben at any means necessary. I get the hubris in thinking his power and guidance could overcome anything. He was wrong. But I do not get the out of character betrayal of everything he stood for up to that point. By simply giving up before even trying.

Simple, give it to the same writers as the 3D Clone Wars and let them remake all the films in the same style.

Of course, the stigma there is it's a "cartoon" and won't be perceived as true Star Wars. But then again it could be done for a fraction of the budget.

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