Offensive Media and You

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Gordon_4:
I'd find it harder to watch Galaxy Quest because Alan Rickman is no longer with us.

Yeah, but death is a part of life, being a major jerk isn't. Though ofcourse, it depends how the person died - whenever I watch The Land Before Time it always stings knowing the girl who voiced Ducky got shot by her own father.

Casual Shinji:

Gordon_4:
I'd find it harder to watch Galaxy Quest because Alan Rickman is no longer with us.

Yeah, but death is a part of life, being a major jerk isn't. Though ofcourse, it depends how the person died - whenever I watch The Land Before Time it always stings knowing the girl who voiced Ducky got shot by her own father.

Gone but never forgotten. Now to carve someone's heart out with a spoon.

There are two things that really tick me off when it comes to films.

Romantisizing or making abuse look heroic. It depends on the film as I am ok with the spanking scenes from McKlintuc, but just hearing the plot synopsis of 50 Shades and the rage barely bridled rage Dom has for it during his reviews on the series on Lost in Adaptation makes me wonder if E.L. James is psycotic.

The concept of the Boudice Ripper as Lindsy Ellis Calls it I also find...disquieting. Basicly in alot of romance novels by women for women, say set in a victorian or earlier erra, you have a forceful mae that doesn't exactly take no for an answer, and its so wrong but feels so right (insert puking sounds). Largly a throw back when women's sexuality and amerous desires were forcably restrained, its still a popular trope. Or was. I don't read alot of woman's romance lit.

evilthecat:

Dreiko:
I think getting offended by such things shows you have growing to do and are still immature. If you feel like you might be offended by something, that means you're not in the mood for it or it's not to your taste.

I think the exact opposite.

If you're not offended by anything, then it means you've never had the experience of being genuinely hurt by something. It means you live in a sheltered world where you don't have to take anything seriously because you've never had to grow up and see that the world is a serious place.

Not being able to understand real consequences is kind of the definition of immaturity. It's why adolescent kids write edgy stories about murdering their parents in the Purge or something, because a child's developing mind can't comprehend real consequences like mortality. To most children (with a few very sad exceptions) things like death, violence and abuse are just fun aesthetics.

And that's fine, because they're kids, and they will eventually figure it out. They will face the reality of death, they will come to understand emotions like grief and suffering, because that's part of what growing up means.

But if you're already an adult, it's not unreasonable to expect you to have an adult view of the world, and that means considering the very real consequences of your fun aesthetics, and not just for yourself. If you laugh at a racist joke because you've never personally experienced the consequences of racism and therefore it isn't "real" for you, then that's really no different from a child not being able to understand the consequences of death.

Now, you can certainly find value or even humour in things which are uncomfortable. Part of living in a serious world is learning to live with a degree of discomfort. But adults have limits. You cannot demand that someone shares your indifference to things that hurt them, that certainly isn't "maturity".

Dreiko seems to think (well, wants to believe for the purpose of appearing intellectually superior to we plebs) that "offensive" has an objective definition, i.e.: the words "offensive" and "red" carry equal weight in the phrases "offensive media" and "red car." I call straw man; I don't feel anyone suggested that. Of course whether or not something is offensive is going to vary from person to person. That's... kinda the spirit of the thread.

But kudos for burning that straw man at both ends; I find your assessment of Dreiko's assertion offensive in its accuracy.

I'm offended that so many people like Mrs Brown's Boys.

Something Amyss:
There are a lot of those, but was it by chance Left Behind? I picked up the first book in a used bookstore because the premise sounded interesting. Too bad the writing wasn't. I didn't hear the hype about the series, so i didn't know any better. Idon't even mind the Christian preachiness, it was just...dull.

One of the things that's always amused me is a certain set of Christians who seem to think all atheists will recoil like a vampire if you do something like say "Merry Christmas" or "God bless." Tis is lkess about propaganda and more that first example about trying hard, but I only thought about it because you referenced a Christian propaganda movie, which made me think of the horrible strawman movies like "God's Not Dead" where pretty much everyone else in the world is villainised, and I went on from there.

My first band was mistaken for a Christian group. While our guitarist was a Christian, I was the principle songwriter. It seems to blow some folks' minds that that's a thing, specifically because of the rhetoric out there. I like Christmas music. Well, some of it. I have a nice long Christmas playlist I run between Thanksgiving and Christmas. People say "God bless" I say "thank you" because I assume it comes from a place of kindness. Etc.

And while that's not the media I had in mind, I bring all this up because...I'm not offended by the God's Not Dead movies. They're not offensive to me, they're kind of funny. Well, funny enough. There are some serious tryhard moments in the movie where I'm not sure if they're trying to preach or to attack atheists, but the bit where the atheist is asked why he hates God or whatever and he's all "BECAUZ HE KILT MUH DADDY!" has me rolling on the floor.

I doubt the creators would appreciate me thinking of it as comedy but it is what it is.

I wasn't offended by being considered part of a Christian group, incidentally. It did throw me, though, because I never thought of what I wrote as having any religious significance.

Hmm *quick Google types* Oh, Left Behind was the Nicholas Cage one, based on many a books, thought it sounded familiar. But nah, the film wished it could be a Cage's lowest career moment. It was an Affirm films production called 'The Remaining.' A producer who specifically deal in cheap Christian...well, their name says it all really. Wait one bias confirming minute...the imdb page is saying Bryan Dechart was in it, who played Android Connor in Detroit: Becoming Cage! Poor lad. The Cage gauge is showing suspiciously high readings on this topic. Best move quickly on!

Song lyrics can and do often meander around abstract, metaphor, spiritual and other styles which one can easily imagine if any person listening to them with a specific set of experiences and bias in belief, would apply their own meaning to them, and then there are people who see god in everything anyway, so maybe you had a writing style that allowed a flexibility for interpretation, moreso than first assumed? I remember that happening the opposite way, where a couple of bands I quite enjoyed had turned out to be self-described Christian bands, and now all those songs once applied my own personal meaning onto all seem less interesting now I can't stop thinking they're probably about Jesus instead. They may not be, but the emotional distance was still unavoidably created by the mere knowledge they very well probably are.

Nevertheless, it is best to see the funny side of all those badly executed propaganda films, it's all they're worth really. Naughty athiests! Have heard some positive rumblings around Aronofsky's Noah, so still intend to give that a go at some point soon. Maybe it strikes a balance, maybe not, as long as it entertains.

saint of m:
The concept of the Boudice Ripper as Lindsy Ellis Calls it I also find...disquieting. Basicly in alot of romance novels by women for women, say set in a victorian or earlier erra, you have a forceful mae that doesn't exactly take no for an answer, and its so wrong but feels so right (insert puking sounds). Largly a throw back when women's sexuality and amerous desires were forcably restrained, its still a popular trope. Or was. I don't read alot of woman's romance lit.

Paranormal fiction is full of werewolf love interests who just can't help being domineering/abusive, so yeah, still around.

While also ignoring that the 'more wholesome' shows really would appeal more to right-wing Christians. And also ignoring that most pro-censorship watchdog groups are right-wing Christian groups complaining about gays corrupting children.[/quote]

Yup. I's also ignoring that shows like these were targeted for censorship for being offensive to the right as well. Things like Archie Bunker mentioning "terlets" and the like. Ignoring that they're pushing for media that's a lot whiter, a lot straighter, and promoting their politics over other people.

Hell, I was amused by the sudden defense of the Simpsons when the "Problem With Apu" thing came up. How quickly the right went from attacking the Simpsons for insulting Fox news and being vulgar and so on to defending it because, well...it's just a joke. Same thing with Seth McFarlane, who on any given day is attacked by the censor-happy right or defended. I don't like Seth, but it's amazing how quickly they flock to defend him if someone else is offended and how quick they are to cry foul if they're the ones offended. And it's annoying watching them run in circles trying nto justify why it's funny to "trogger the libs" but someone should be taken off the air for hurting their feelings.

Neurotic Void Melody:

Hmm *quick Google types* Oh, Left Behind was the Nicholas Cage one, based on many a books, thought it sounded familiar. But nah, the film wished it could be a Cage's lowest career moment. It was an Affirm films production called 'The Remaining.' A producer who specifically deal in cheap Christian...well, their name says it all really. Wait one bias confirming minute...the imdb page is saying Bryan Dechart was in it, who played Android Connor in Detroit: Becoming Cage! Poor lad. The Cage gauge is showing suspiciously high readings on this topic. Best move quickly on!

Song lyrics can and do often meander around abstract, metaphor, spiritual and other styles which one can easily imagine if any person listening to them with a specific set of experiences and bias in belief, would apply their own meaning to them, and then there are people who see god in everything anyway, so maybe you had a writing style that allowed a flexibility for interpretation, moreso than first assumed? I remember that happening the opposite way, where a couple of bands I quite enjoyed had turned out to be self-described Christian bands, and now all those songs once applied my own personal meaning onto all seem less interesting now I can't stop thinking they're probably about Jesus instead. They may not be, but the emotional distance was still unavoidably created by the mere knowledge they very well probably are.

Nevertheless, it is best to see the funny side of all those badly executed propaganda films, it's all they're worth really. Naughty athiests! Have heard some positive rumblings around Aronofsky's Noah, so still intend to give that a go at some point soon. Maybe it strikes a balance, maybe not, as long as it entertains.

I forgot about the Nic Cage movie because there's another one. I've never heard of the one you saw, though i don't spend a lot of time watching this stuff so it's not too shocking.

Side note on the song lyrics. There's a band called Tribe of Judah, which was formed by Extreme frontman Gary Cherone produced by his former bandmate and guy who discovered Godsmack Paul Geary, and...surprisingly good for something that came out of the remains of a hair metal act. So anyway, Exit Elvis, their only record, is a concept album. And I rally enjoyed it and people were surprised. Taken as a whole, its intent is to be an indictment of life without God, and how meaningless things are. Not only did I not tend to listen to the album as a whole, my response to the overall meaning was that it indicts the very mindset it was attempting to make a case for. Quite frankly, Gary made the case for the necessity of God in one's life to seem very sad.

And I'm not the kind of person to begrudge someone their beliefs, but I felt his specific case for God fell flat. The message wasn't lost on me, but I had a kind of "death of the author" moment.

I actually forgot about Noah. I meant to cvheck it out at some point, but life has a tendency to happen.

I'm generally not bothered by religious movies per se. Some are fine, some I skip. I mostly am only bothered by religion when people start using it to beat you over the head. The Noah movie seemed interesting, just not enough for a full-price ticket.

saint of m:
The concept of the Boudice Ripper as Lindsy Ellis Calls it I also find...disquieting. Basicly in alot of romance novels by women for women, say set in a victorian or earlier erra, you have a forceful mae that doesn't exactly take no for an answer, and its so wrong but feels so right (insert puking sounds). Largly a throw back when women's sexuality and amerous desires were forcably restrained, its still a popular trope. Or was. I don't read alot of woman's romance lit.

The term "bodice ripper" way predates Lindsay Ellis.

Thaluikan mentioned paranormal fiction, and it is there in spades. not just in paranormal romance books, but just sort of shoehorned into a lot of it, which I assume is done because it's popular. There's a lot of dominating bad boys in paranormal fiction of all times, and you will commonlhy find women writing them.

On the one hand, I think I get where it';s coming from. People use rape fantasies and even rapoe fiction to help cope with trauma from being raped, and I wonder if this doesn't have a similar appeal. Rather than being subjected to the mean domineering dude, you can experience it on your own terms.

On the other hand, having survived sexual assault and rape, I've learned to steer clear of almost everything with the word "paranormal" in it. Too many stories turn rapey for my taste.

Something Amyss:
Thaluikan mentioned paranormal fiction, and it is there in spades. not just in paranormal romance books, but just sort of shoehorned into a lot of it, which I assume is done because it's popular. There's a lot of dominating bad boys in paranormal fiction of all times, and you will commonlhy find women writing them.

On the one hand, I think I get where it';s coming from. People use rape fantasies and even rapoe fiction to help cope with trauma from being raped, and I wonder if this doesn't have a similar appeal. Rather than being subjected to the mean domineering dude, you can experience it on your own terms.

Probably doesn't help that half of all the "big romantic gestures" a guy does in fiction is something that should be reported to the police if it happened IRL.

I don't generally run into shows or games that offend me so greatly that I have to drop them and I don't generally boycott things because I usually don't use/watch them in the first place. The last two things I remember offending me are the Chinese commercial that puts a black man in a washer and out pops a clean Chinese man and the Rise of the Shield Hero, in which our protagonist purchases a slave. This slave thing is particularly irritating in Anime because relationships are already abusive as fuck without literally owning the "love interest". He's the "Good Slave Owner" and she's currently/will be in love with him. It's disgusting. I know the show's characters treat said slavery as taboo, but it's the same characters that act like pieces of shit. Which means I'm with the annoying, jackass antagonists. So the show denounces slavery without actually denouncing slavery. Fuck this show. If it isn't obvious, I dropped it.

Minimalism.

Thaluikhain:

Something Amyss:
Thaluikan mentioned paranormal fiction, and it is there in spades. not just in paranormal romance books, but just sort of shoehorned into a lot of it, which I assume is done because it's popular. There's a lot of dominating bad boys in paranormal fiction of all times, and you will commonlhy find women writing them.

On the one hand, I think I get where it';s coming from. People use rape fantasies and even rapoe fiction to help cope with trauma from being raped, and I wonder if this doesn't have a similar appeal. Rather than being subjected to the mean domineering dude, you can experience it on your own terms.

Probably doesn't help that half of all the "big romantic gestures" a guy does in fiction is something that should be reported to the police if it happened IRL.

I know I'd be filing a restraining order against most of these people.

Though if I'm being honest, and this skews a bit a way from the intended topic, the thing that bothers me most isn't even the fact that these characters exist in fiction. It's that people will use these fictional characters as examples of why no really means yes, or women like jerks and abusers, or...insert any other argument you frequently see in internet arguments under "I don't understand why I can't get a date, I'm a nice guy why are women such bitches?"

I understand this sort of fantasy is popular, and it's possible for me to just not read the books or watch the movies. The cultural effect seems to be almost tangible, though. It really shouldn't be. People should be able to distinguish fantasy from reality, yet here we are.

I love Tony Stark's character in the Marvel movies. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with him if he was a real-life human, whether he was romantically interested in me or not. He's a fun character, but he's a character that would make most of our politicians look decent and pure by virtue of existing.

It seems daft to me to judge a piece of media made decades ago by current social standards. I try to judge these things on what they are, not what I (or anyone else) thinks it ought to be. I guess its sort of like "judge the art, not the artist".

Captain Marvelous:
I don't generally run into shows or games that offend me so greatly that I have to drop them and I don't generally boycott things because I usually don't use/watch them in the first place. The last two things I remember offending me are the Chinese commercial that puts a black man in a washer and out pops a clean Chinese man and the Rise of the Shield Hero, in which our protagonist purchases a slave. This slave thing is particularly irritating in Anime because relationships are already abusive as fuck without literally owning the "love interest". He's the "Good Slave Owner" and she's currently/will be in love with him. It's disgusting. I know the show's characters treat said slavery as taboo, but it's the same characters that act like pieces of shit. Which means I'm with the annoying, jackass antagonists. So the show denounces slavery without actually denouncing slavery. Fuck this show. If it isn't obvious, I dropped it.

The funny thing about that Chinese commercial is that it's a rip-off of an Italian commercial where the reverse happens. The company tried to claim they weren't offending anybody, but that's bullshit. As black person I find either version disturbing, but more so the Chinese version. The show you talked about sounds like it suffers from Uninteionally Unsympathetic protagonist syndrome and moral dissonance.

Most things don't "offend" me, but if something makes me uncomfortable or it's full of shit, I will not hide it or ignore. For example, the anime Gate - Jietai Kare no Chi nite, Kaku Tatakeri I barely watched, but stopped when realizing it's made by a Japanese ultra nationalist who views anyone not Japanese as incompetent at best, while downright evil at worst. The US, China, or Russia are never seen in a favorable light (to the point of stupidity and create an unnecessary nation incident in real life), and Japanese culture is superior to any other real or imaginary. It's the equivalent of "white man's burden" or how there are people in the US who view minorities or immigrants as evil or "taking things away from true Americans". The fact that the character is a glorified self-insert with harem after just screams the level of smugness from the creator.

Shows or episodes that did actually offend back when I was a kid or teenager were Inuyasha with its use of Double Standard Female on Male abuse (fuck, Kagome and Naru. They're a bratty twats), Eureka 7 (abusing a 13 year-old ain't funny; especially when the crew is supposed to be seen as "likeable") and some episodes of Hey Arnold. The Longest Monday, Girl Trouble, New Bully on the Block, and that depressing episode with the fucking bunny pajamas. If you're a fan of Hey Arnold, you already know what I am talking about. In order we have implying hazing to be okay (albiet unintentional on the writers part), double standard female on male abuse, let the bully's win just to have a downer ending, and humiliating yourself for someone else dumb ass decisions. Seriously, fuck the episode with the bunny pajamas. That's off the top of my head.

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Minimalism.

I think I see what you did there...

But yeah, while I wouldn't call minimalism "offensive," I certain call a lot of it "pretentious bullshit." I'm all for art being a pure form of subjective expression, but shit like Robert Rauschenberg's White Paintings, which are basically 1% artist effort and 99% observer interpretation, are just absurd. There're too many truly great works of art that are expressions of another's self which I find striking and/or moving for me to waste my time digging deep into myself to compensate for a bad artist's failure to express a cogent idea.

Xprimentyl:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Minimalism.

I think I see what you did there?

But yeah, while I wouldn?t call minimalism ?offensive,? I certain call a lot of it ?pretentious bullshit.? I?m all for art being a pure form of subjective expression, but shit like Robert Rauschenberg?s White Paintings, which are basically 1% artist effort and 99% observer interpretation, are just absurd. There?re too many truly great works of art that are expressions of another?s self which I find striking and/or moving for me to waste my time digging deep into myself to compensate for a bad artist?s failure to express a cogent idea.

Well more so I was making a joke about how the core designs of minimalism often have to knowingly sacrifice conventional human iterpretations of context and appreciable relations to raw, evocative madness of human alienation to reality... Sort of your comment of 1% Effort - 99% interpretations--but I think it's actually worse than that when you dig under that problem and go deeper.

Minimalism is also basically endpoint modernism, and why postmodernism is clearly the solution to raw consumption to fill the void.

There's only so much Stella's black paintings you can look at before your brain on a physical layer craves colour. Basically minimalism was an intellectual pursuit towards how much non-endearing garbage humans can consume before they need a Wes Anderson The Life Aquatic. Which is equally trying to be intellectually masturbatory but is approachable and didn't require oneself being fucked by geometrically congruent dimensions. And then minimalists have the fucking gall to pretend like we're the ones who aren't being objective.

Minimalism's garbage also lead to garbage people saying contradictory things like; "I'd rather have a passport full of stamps than a room full of things..." As if commodifying human experience of other peoples and places, while also being insufferable fuckwits that assume that people could even afford or do as such due to either iniquity, responsibility, or simple time. That they truly have a choice and/or a meaningful point of reference if they hadn't, maybe that's the whole fucking reason we express ourselves.

And honestly those types of people piss me off even more than Catholic priests who atleast endorse things like education and introspection and fund naked expressions of spiritually charged artistry.

I'm so fucking sorry I appreciate this bottle of wine and it makes me happier. Clearly my tastebuds and addiction towards consumption as happiness is not so simply good or bad... and fuck y'all if you simply treat it as such, arsehole. I like simply telling myself 'probably not, but likely okay, maybe next year I'll cut down, fuck this my shiraz will get vinegar-y.' I also like the convenient excuse that it means something both on the surface and is a topic of worthy distinguishment if I use it as an inspiration and treat it as entirely human.

It's also like the importance of this human relationship of my guilt and self-excusing, and feeling tinges of worry, paranoia, and a topic of substance dependency means so much more when an observer looks at it and is like; "Been there, girl."

Sorry I can't or don't feel invested in trying to explain this with my fucking protractor and a single colour in mathematical reference to how much bare canvas I leave.

It's like we're variably distanced souls screaming into the void and trying to prove we're human and maybe that requires vibrancy and context to be meaningful and as deeply empathic as possible to others? You know, maybe...?

Minimalism is intellectual wank pretending to speak to a true core of art while lying to itself both in praxis and inevitably in final production, and fuck those people making an argument of one's humanity while intentionally trying to cheapen its expression and the whole fucking purpose of why you wish to express yourself in the first place. Doubly fuck them when they pretend to speak something and clearly it's my fault for not being a past-mindreader of when they deluded themselves enough to pretend to have a point.

It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child, called it an art movement, and we're meant to pretend there's no problem in social translation or that it's able to form a concise statement or display an appropriate sense of the artist.

If a book tried this you know what it would be called? Shit.

In short, I think you're being overly-charitable about how literally nothing those types of paintings are. It's like mediocrity needed a participatory prize and how late-stage modernism poisoned artistic expression and alienated many people somehow from even appreciating that alienation. It was art as if from the perspective of ideological acceptance and questioning of what is art, and nothing good survives its own metanarrative as narrative.

The best thing to come out of late-stage modernist movement of things like minimalist VA was postmodernism saying; "Why did you make art shitty?"

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Xprimentyl:

Addendum_Forthcoming:
Minimalism.

I think I see what you did there?

But yeah, while I wouldn?t call minimalism ?offensive,? I certain call a lot of it ?pretentious bullshit.? I?m all for art being a pure form of subjective expression, but shit like Robert Rauschenberg?s White Paintings, which are basically 1% artist effort and 99% observer interpretation, are just absurd. There?re too many truly great works of art that are expressions of another?s self which I find striking and/or moving for me to waste my time digging deep into myself to compensate for a bad artist?s failure to express a cogent idea.

Well more so I was making a joke about how the core designs of minimalism often have to knowingly sacrifice conventional human iterpretations of context and appreciable relations to raw, evocative madness of human alienation to reality... Sort of your comment of 1% Effort - 99% interpretations--but I think it's actually worse than that when you dig under that problem and go deeper.

Minimalism is also basically endpoint modernism, and why postmodernism is clearly the solution to raw consumption to fill the void.

There's only so much Stella's black paintings you can look at before your brain on a physical layer craves colour. Basically minimalism was an intellectual pursuit towards how much non-endearing garbage humans can consume before they need a Wes Anderson The Life Aquatic. Which is equally trying to be intellectually masturbatory but is approachable and didn't require oneself being fucked by geometrically congruent dimensions. And then minimalists have the fucking gall to pretend like we're the ones who aren't being objective.

Minimalism's garbage also lead to garbage people saying contradictory things like; "I'd rather have a passport full of stamps than a room full of things..." As if commodifying human experience of other peoples and places, while also being insufferable fuckwits that assume that people could even afford or do as such due to either iniquity, responsibility, or simple time. That they truly have a choice and/or a meaningful point of reference if they hadn't, maybe that's the whole fucking reason we express ourselves.

And honestly those types of people piss me off even more than Catholic priests who atleast endorse things like education and introspection and fund naked expressions of spiritually charged artistry.

I'm so fucking sorry I appreciate this bottle of wine and it makes me happier. Clearly my tastebuds and addiction towards consumption as happiness is not so simply good or bad... and fuck y'all if you simply treat it as such, arsehole. I like simply telling myself 'probably not, but likely okay, maybe next year I'll cut down, fuck this my shiraz will get vinegar-y.' I also like the convenient excuse that it means something both on the surface and is a topic of worthy distinguishment if I use it as an inspiration and treat it as entirely human.

It's also like the importance of this human relationship of my guilt and self-excusing, and feeling tinges of worry, paranoia, and a topic of substance dependency means so much more when an observer looks at it and is like; "Been there, girl."

Sorry I can't or don't feel invested in trying to explain this with my fucking protractor and a single colour in mathematical reference to how much bare canvas I leave.

It's like we're variably distanced souls screaming into the void and trying to prove we're human and maybe that requires vibrancy and context to be meaningful and as deeply empathic as possible to others? You know, maybe...?

Minimalism is intellectual wank pretending to speak to a true core of art while lying to itself both in praxis and inevitably in final production, and fuck those people making an argument of one's humanity while intentionally trying to cheapen its expression and the whole fucking purpose of why you wish to express yourself in the first place. Doubly fuck them when they pretend to speak something and clearly it's my fault for not being a past-mindreader of when they deluded themselves enough to pretend to have a point.

It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child, called it an art movement, and we're meant to pretend there's no problem in social translation or that it's able to form a concise statement or display an appropriate sense of the artist.

If a book tried this you know what it would be called? Shit.

In short, I think you're being overly-charitable about how literally nothing those types of paintings are. It's like mediocrity needed a participatory prize and how late-stage modernism poisoned artistic expression and alienated many people somehow from even appreciating that alienation. It was art as if from the perspective of ideological acceptance and questioning of what is art, and nothing good survives its own metanarrative as narrative.

The best thing to come out of late-stage modernist movement of things like minimalist VA was postmodernism saying; "Why did you make art shitty?"

Welp, I'm sold. Your maximalist undressing of minimalism has convinced me; it is indeed offensive. You've put way more thought into this than I ever having, opting to roll my eyes and dismiss it, but you've grabbed me by the nape, and wafted the stank of minimalism up my nostrils so as I can't deny its awfulness. " It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child"; I'm going to find a way to weave this phrase into a conversation at least once a day for the rest of my life...

Xprimentyl:

Welp, I?m sold. Your maximalist undressing of minimalism has convinced me; it is indeed offensive. You?ve put way more thought into this than I ever having, opting to roll my eyes and dismiss it, but you?ve grabbed me by the nape, and wafted the stank of minimalism up my nostrils so as I can?t deny its awfulness. ? It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child?; I?m going to find a way to weave this phrase into a conversation at least once a day for the rest of my life?

I am a deeply impassioned and thus terribly unhappy person, it's true. I will say minimalism isn't all terrible. Like the modernist movement is basically end-capped with minimalism in a logical identity crisis with the advent of photography and global society of the 19th century onwards. If it wasn't for the modernist movement you wouldn't have had the antimodernist movements (such as the futurist movement that was incredibly prescient (and thus cynical) about the dangers of the 20th century that would ultimately play out with the World Wars) which then modernism co-opted through sheer weight of intellectually wanky discourse of villifying Magritte over and over and then just wholesale stole all his ideas 40 years later.

I think the central problem I have is you only need one Magritte. Anything more is naked consumption all while pretending it's not.

Basically the one good thing of minimalism was conversely proving the argument that it was trying to refute was that of mass consumerism and global trade narrowing time and space of that which is consumed. So the whole white paintings schtick that tries to argue and 'capture' a sublime core of artistic represetation. While postmodernism is basically saying; "Yeah, but that's capitalist consumption of the feed and requires zero investment of author or consumer save for self-gratification."

Which is the big reason why minimalism in particular was seen as particularly offensive as a movement and why it jogged a lot of what would become the postmodern VA movement to begin with as if an anti-art art revolution.

Incidentally created a weird union between postmodern artists and orthodox Marxist thinkers who are nothing if not the parents of the modernist movement's early roots (a fixation on people amidst global empires, trade, and an evolving industrial revolution). Postmodernism was a bit of a Sartrean 'fellow traveller' in the face of the Cold War. They empathized with the plight, but not necessarily the ethos of its constantly messaged means of revolution.

Postmodern artists were right to point out how all these minimalists seemed to proliferate in New York, Hanover and London... Whereas postmodern art had literally become 'the VA of the people'. Postmodern art does not sacrifice its personable disposition, it never sets out to do so, and seeks to scream in your face and tell you the fight for your humanity will not be won simply by subscription.

And someone who is psychology focussed, this is a healthy thing to do. When bad shit happens to people, and individuals communicate this, they don't generally want quiet empathy and a hug. They want the other person to be shocked, be outraged, be angry with them. Solidarity shouldn't be something people pay for with quiet grief, but collective anger and passion, and their voices tear at the world in jarring cacophony.

I'd post a link to offensive media but the author already deleted it.

Xprimentyl:

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Xprimentyl:

I think I see what you did there?

But yeah, while I wouldn?t call minimalism ?offensive,? I certain call a lot of it ?pretentious bullshit.? I?m all for art being a pure form of subjective expression, but shit like Robert Rauschenberg?s White Paintings, which are basically 1% artist effort and 99% observer interpretation, are just absurd. There?re too many truly great works of art that are expressions of another?s self which I find striking and/or moving for me to waste my time digging deep into myself to compensate for a bad artist?s failure to express a cogent idea.

Well more so I was making a joke about how the core designs of minimalism often have to knowingly sacrifice conventional human iterpretations of context and appreciable relations to raw, evocative madness of human alienation to reality... Sort of your comment of 1% Effort - 99% interpretations--but I think it's actually worse than that when you dig under that problem and go deeper.

Minimalism is also basically endpoint modernism, and why postmodernism is clearly the solution to raw consumption to fill the void.

There's only so much Stella's black paintings you can look at before your brain on a physical layer craves colour. Basically minimalism was an intellectual pursuit towards how much non-endearing garbage humans can consume before they need a Wes Anderson The Life Aquatic. Which is equally trying to be intellectually masturbatory but is approachable and didn't require oneself being fucked by geometrically congruent dimensions. And then minimalists have the fucking gall to pretend like we're the ones who aren't being objective.

Minimalism's garbage also lead to garbage people saying contradictory things like; "I'd rather have a passport full of stamps than a room full of things..." As if commodifying human experience of other peoples and places, while also being insufferable fuckwits that assume that people could even afford or do as such due to either iniquity, responsibility, or simple time. That they truly have a choice and/or a meaningful point of reference if they hadn't, maybe that's the whole fucking reason we express ourselves.

And honestly those types of people piss me off even more than Catholic priests who atleast endorse things like education and introspection and fund naked expressions of spiritually charged artistry.

I'm so fucking sorry I appreciate this bottle of wine and it makes me happier. Clearly my tastebuds and addiction towards consumption as happiness is not so simply good or bad... and fuck y'all if you simply treat it as such, arsehole. I like simply telling myself 'probably not, but likely okay, maybe next year I'll cut down, fuck this my shiraz will get vinegar-y.' I also like the convenient excuse that it means something both on the surface and is a topic of worthy distinguishment if I use it as an inspiration and treat it as entirely human.

It's also like the importance of this human relationship of my guilt and self-excusing, and feeling tinges of worry, paranoia, and a topic of substance dependency means so much more when an observer looks at it and is like; "Been there, girl."

Sorry I can't or don't feel invested in trying to explain this with my fucking protractor and a single colour in mathematical reference to how much bare canvas I leave.

It's like we're variably distanced souls screaming into the void and trying to prove we're human and maybe that requires vibrancy and context to be meaningful and as deeply empathic as possible to others? You know, maybe...?

Minimalism is intellectual wank pretending to speak to a true core of art while lying to itself both in praxis and inevitably in final production, and fuck those people making an argument of one's humanity while intentionally trying to cheapen its expression and the whole fucking purpose of why you wish to express yourself in the first place. Doubly fuck them when they pretend to speak something and clearly it's my fault for not being a past-mindreader of when they deluded themselves enough to pretend to have a point.

It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child, called it an art movement, and we're meant to pretend there's no problem in social translation or that it's able to form a concise statement or display an appropriate sense of the artist.

If a book tried this you know what it would be called? Shit.

In short, I think you're being overly-charitable about how literally nothing those types of paintings are. It's like mediocrity needed a participatory prize and how late-stage modernism poisoned artistic expression and alienated many people somehow from even appreciating that alienation. It was art as if from the perspective of ideological acceptance and questioning of what is art, and nothing good survives its own metanarrative as narrative.

The best thing to come out of late-stage modernist movement of things like minimalist VA was postmodernism saying; "Why did you make art shitty?"

Welp, I?m sold. Your maximalist undressing of minimalism has convinced me; it is indeed offensive. You?ve put way more thought into this than I ever having, opting to roll my eyes and dismiss it, but you?ve grabbed me by the nape, and wafted the stank of minimalism up my nostrils so as I can?t deny its awfulness. ? It's basically if bathroom tile design and clinical autism had a child?; I?m going to find a way to weave this phrase into a conversation at least once a day for the rest of my life?

What are you two on about?! I <3 postmodern minimalist decorating and sculptures. The 1920's and 1960's are my favorite periods and I love Space age and futuristic decorating Styles and they are great to combine with postmodern and minimalist. I detest clutter and "busyness" of patterns in spaces and love clean lines and a calming environment. Why would I want an ugly old cluttered stinky kitchen when I can have a sleek, sanitary, easy to clean one like this?!
( most are shown in white but they can literally be any color you want)
http://rilane.com/images/2016141/sleek-curvy-kitchen-island.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fd/16/99/fd16990431c3877d1d98608a78a1064f.jpg
http://rilane.com/images/2016141/curved-white-kitchen-island.jpg
https://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/2781c10a09a56826_8-0394/modern-kitchen.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EH9KMN/blue-and-white-curved-breakfast-barisland-in-modern-kitchen-of-residential-EH9KMN.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/96/7f/0b/967f0bc8684173b1384250e7aa43e04e--contemporary-kitchen-design-design-kitchen.jpg
This helps you differentiate.
https://blog.kitchenmagic.com/blog/mid-century-modern-vs-postmodern-contemporary

Postmodern lights are pretty awesome too:
https://image.dhgate.com/0x0/f2/albu/g4/M00/BC/37/rBVaEFdnV2yAMgqxAAFEws_VPKU491.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeLT07FWAXQTUWh1o0xXzo4H2nYJRoqZlX0KMcKDjvk_49lDZ2
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1C6UGXfNNTKJjSspeq6ySwpXaD/Modern-Creative-Led-Lustre-Acrylic-Aluminum-Chandeliers-Dimmable-Postmodern-For-living-Room-Bedroom-New-Chandelier-free.jpg_640x640.jpg
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB13kPXfv5TBuNjSspcq6znGFXax/Living-Room-Lamps-Postmodern-Chandelier-Modern-Simple-Circular-Led-Personality-Atmosphere-Bedroom-Lamps-Creative-Restaurant-Ligh.jpg_640x640.jpg
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1N2q9bBDH8KJjy1zeq6xjepXa5/Colorful-firefly-villa-postmodern-chandelier-lights-lamp-for-living-room-modern-AC-110V-220V-LED-chandeliers.jpg

Or Living room?
https://deavita.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/modern-home-ideas-black-and-grey-living-room-interior-design-furniture-ideas.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUL_aN-cpMc_endWc3rsXyZ9kNUZBqL4CZ-jfxZlQPdVMect1tFQ
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/e7/06/bfe706789d32cb4f3f2c58adf9883d84.jpg
I prefer dark but it doesn't have to be:
http://www.ilpiccolodesign.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/italian-Furniture.jpg
http://www.nativeasthma.org/ldk_cdn/mo/sofa-contemporary-wall-decor-for-living-room_inspired-living-room.jpg
http://shopsunnylove.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/wall-unit-living-room-wall-units-beautifully-fitted-living-rooms-living-room-wall-units-photos-captivating-fitted-wall.jpg
https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/g/2013/09/LG_OLED.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/2f/ae/9a2faeb5aea9a4546970d225a120436d.jpg

These styles can be very cool.
http://www.alfredthe.me/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/smart-inspiration-black-metal-wall-art-decor-uk-tree-australia-amazon-ebay-for-kitchen.jpg
http://appraises.info/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/texture-wall-paint-for-living-room-medium-of-dark-decorative-wall-tiles-drawing-room-interior-decoration-living-room-wall-textured-wall-wall-texture-paint-designs-living-room-blue.jpg
http://dieet.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/best-purple-paint-ideas-with-stunning-modern-colors-intended-for-bedroom-room.jpg

Lil devils x:
What are you two on about?! I <3 postmodern minimalist decorating and sculptures.

You mean post-minimalist? Precisely the people who saw a problem of metanarrative as art narrative subject and decided to correct this grievous thought-crime against good sensibility and taste? Ehh, as I said above some minimalist stuff was okay... but you don't need to transform Magritte into an art movement.

He already told me smoking artistic works is bad.

The 1920's and 1960's are my favorite periods and I love Space age and futuristic decorating Styles and they are great to combine with postmodern and minimalist.

Depends on which stuff you look at. The Futurist movement (which was largely pessimistic) was an antimodernist movement. Though that was technically 1910s. And incredibly prescient about the horrors of the first half of the 20th century.

I detest clutter and "busyness" of patterns in spaces and love clean lines and a calming environment. Why would I want an ugly old cluttered stinky kitchen when I can have a sleek, sanitary, easy to clean one like this?!

Which is kind of why I describe it as bathroom tile design and autism having a baby. It purposely cheapens the nature of one's humanity and the very reasons why one might choose to express themselves in the firstplace, is blatantly hypocritical and self-contradictory, sacrifices context for some garbage idea of pure representation, and all the while is impossible to parse because of it.

The postmodern revolution that was kickstarted by the intellectually bankrupt minimalist movement split in paintings and performing arts is a lot less blurry than in sculpture and literature.

In this sense current po-mo is no different to antimodernist movements of the past.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Lil devils x:
What are you two on about?! I <3 postmodern minimalist decorating and sculptures.

You mean post-minimalist? Precisely the people who saw a problem of metanarrative as art narrative subject and decided to correct this grievous thought-crime against good sensibility and taste? Ehh, as I said above some minimalist stuff was okay... but you don't need to transform Magritte into an art movement.

He already told me smoking artistic works is bad.

The 1920's and 1960's are my favorite periods and I love Space age and futuristic decorating Styles and they are great to combine with postmodern and minimalist.

Depends on which stuff you look at. The futurist movement (which was largely pessimistic) was an antimodernist movement. Though that was technically 1910s. And incredibly prescient about the horrors of the first half of the 20th century.

I detest clutter and "busyness" of patterns in spaces and love clean lines and a calming environment. Why would I want an ugly old cluttered stinky kitchen when I can have a sleek, sanitary, easy to clean one like this?!

Which is kind of why I describe it as bathroom tile design and autism having a baby. It purposely cheapens the nature of one's humanity and the very reasons why one might choose to express themselves in the firstplace, is blatantly hypocritical and self-contradictory, sacrifices context for some garbage idea of pure representation, and all the while is impossible to parse because of it.

The postmodern split in paintings and performing arts is a lot less blurry than in sculpture and literature.

Of course it depends on the specific work, as there is always good and bad works no matter what category you are in. I disagree that it "Cheapens" one's humanity, but instead provides a clear mind for one to add your own creation. For me a clean space allows for me to create from within. Being a highly creative person, I make everything from leather work, bead work, sculpting, woodworking, woodburning, carpentry, painting, drawing, sheetmetal and LED art, and build anything and everything and can paint whatever I wish on it. Instead of painting canvas, I paint maidens tossing flowers as the knights return from battle on a coffee table or woodburn a Shatterer into a throne chair. For me, a minimalist calming clean environment provides the empty canvas for my mind to be able to create. It is my creation lab. When a room is too busy or cluttered I just get a headache and and don't want to think about creating anything new. Your home should be a retreat to relax and calm yourself from the already overly busy world outside. It is all about the mood it sets, for me minimalist decorating is refreshing and clears my mind. It is funny though, I can create anything, but I never want to keep it, I sell it or give it as a gift or tuck it away in nicely smooth cabinets so that I can create something new not to look at. Although I like to create much, I don't want to look at it after I am done. It is then time to move on to something new.

EDIT: In addition, many Post modern works, abstracts inspire creativity rather than retract from it. They remind me of the mind when it is going through the process of creating. Sometimes it is fuzzy and not quite clear, others it is racing with so many ideas at once that they combine themselves together or become all jumbled up. When creating, my mind often is like having hundreds of TV screens all on different channels at once with ideas racing and I sort through them focusing on what I want to do, when I see many post modern works, that is exactly how I perceive them. It doesn't take away from our humanity, it is a part of it. It can be seen as an enhancement of the mind rather than an impairment.

Lil devils x:

Of course it depends on the specific work, as there is always good and bad works no matter what category you are in. I disagree that it "Cheapens" one's humanity, but instead provides a clear mind for one to add your own creation. For me a clean space allows for me to create from within. Being a highly creative person, I make everything from leather work, bead work, sculpting, woodworking, woodburning, carpentry, painting, drawing, sheetmetal and LED art, and build anything and everything and can paint whatever I wish on it. Instead of painting canvas, I paint maidens tossing flowers as the knights return from battle on a coffee table or woodburn a Shatterer into a throne chair. For me, a minimalist calming clean environment provides the empty canvas for my mind to be able to create. It is my creation lab. When a room is too busy or cluttered I just get a headache and and don't want to think about creating anything new. Your home should be a retreat to relax and calm yourself from the already overly busy world outside. It is all about the mood it sets, for me minimalist decorating is refreshing and clears my mind. It is funny though, I can create anything, but I never want to keep it, I sell it or give it as a gift or tuck it away in nicely smooth cabinets so that I can create something new not to look at. Although I like to create much, I don't want to look at it after I am done. It is then time to move on to something new.

Right, but this is neglecting to take into account minimalism's central conceit of pure representation of art is not consumerism and a loss of truth. If anything the lateral minimalist critique over pure transmission of experience over a postmodern consumerism is all is directly contradicted by your cluttered mess of a studio as you make stuff to fill the void. The canvas exists to be used, there is no truth in annexing context, there is a holistic sense of one's humanity in the alienation to the universe.

The central conceit of postmodernism is that modernism betrayed itself and its humanity. And minimalism to the postmodern rejection even went as far as to create national level hostilities towards it on even political lines. Such as Australia and animosity to minimalism and viewing it as literal mass consumer garbage for those terminally sheltered Americans and Britons dragging us into a likely apocalyptic war.

Which sounds radical, but when people were mass producing this crap in such monumental volume in the 60s and there was a growing post-War renaissance of galleries and explosion of consumer artistry, and with egregious capitalism of the art scene with things like Warhol's factory, it's understandable.

EDIT: In addition, many Post modern works, abstracts inspire creativity rather than retract from it. They remind me of the mind when it is going through the process of creating. Sometimes it is fuzzy and not quite clear, others it is racing with so many ideas at once that they combine themselves together or become all jumbled up. When creating, my mind often is like having hundreds of TV screens all on different channels at once with ideas racing and I sort through them focusing on what I want to do, when I see many post modern works, that is exactly how I perceive them. It doesn't take away from our humanity, it is a part of it. It can be seen as an enhancement of the mind rather than an impairment.

Po-mo in VA has noticeable characteristics in comparison to the late-stage modernist movements they rebelled against. All antimodernist movements do. It's marked by fragmentation of the whole, and ethos towards destroying barriers between high and low art, they use elements of the past to irreverently condemn other movements in a holistic sense Modernism propagated as 'irreverent reappropriation', and what can be described as 'art consumed by people, which consumes the world'. Relying on intertextuality of the 'hyperreal' into the decay of the old.

Such as mechanistic street numbers of 'dead canvas' stencils of hyperreal phenomena over a impressionistically grimy backalley of the realities of city living with a vague humanoid figure walking through it. Age, gender, class obfuscated... alone and hunched and walking away into a grayed out background lacking the similar impressionistic clashing with the hyperreal of its hypothetical foreground by mixing in some photorealism that brings it into a collage that sells the real miasma-like loneliness and alienation that ironically pervades people living in congested now-megacities replete with endless urban sprawl despite it all being ostensibly familiar...

You identify with the obfuscated outline of a person even without seeing their face, their clothes, their destination... rather than the photorealistic pair of people to the side.

A pursuit of real, human truths that the Enlightenment (and late stage modernity) betrayed its espoused search for.

The intent is clear, technically beautiful, stunningly true to its motivations for creation, and that makes it more hard-hitting and truly empathic a description of the human condition. Most importantly (if you're into art theory) it makes a solid argument that that human truth could be presented no other way.

Addendum_Forthcoming:

Right, but this is neglecting to take into account minimalism's central conceit of pure representation of art is not consumerism and a loss of truth. In anything the lateral minimalist critique over pure transmission of experience over a postmodern consumerism is all is directly contradicted by your cluttered mess of a studio. The canvas exists to be used, there is no truth in annexing context, there is a holistic sense of one's humanity in the alienation to the universe.

Why would the studio be a cluttered mess? The whole idea of Minimalist decorating is to ensure you don't see the mess. My supplies, projects and tarps are nicely concealed behind smooth sleek doors out of sight when not in use, not unlike how the ocean waters conceal all the life within. Pretty much everything is stored within the walls and lines of the room. Instead of having to worry about dusting and cleaning a ton of crap all the time, you tuck it all away nicely and only need to wipe down nice smooth surfaces to clean the room. It is the opposite of a cluttered mess of a studio. The idea of minimalism is like standing on the beach looking out into the ocean and the feeling you get of openness, freedom and clarity. It is as natural as the ocean horizon or a clear blue sky.

It is ALSO a part of our humanity to clean up our messes so that we do not ruin whatever it is we are working on.

The central conceit of postmodernism is that modernism betrayed itself and its humanity. And minimalism to the postmodern rejection even went as far as to create national level hostilities towards it on even political lines. Such as Australia and animosity to minimalism and viewing it as literal mass consumer garbage for those terminally sheltered Americans and Britons dragging us into a likely apocalyptic war.

Postmodernism is without boundaries and terms and to narrowly define it as such would violate it's existence.

Po-mo in VA has noticeable characteristics in compared to the late-stage modernist movements they rebelled against. All antimodernist movements do. It's marked by fragmentation of the whole, and ethos towards destroying barriers between high and low art, they use elements of the past to irreverently condemn other movements in a holistic sense Modernism propagated as 'irreverent reappropriation', and what can be described as 'art consumed by people, which consumes the world'. Relying on intertextuality of the 'hyperreal' into the decay of the old.

Such as mechanistic street numbers of 'dead canvas' stencils of hyperreal phenomena over a impressionistically grimy backalley of the realities of city living with a vague humanoid figure walking through it. Age, gender, class obfuscated... alone and hunched and walking away into a grayed out background lacking the similar impressionistic clashing with the hyperreal of its hypothetical foreground by mixing in some photorealism that brings it into a collage that sells the real miasma-like loneliness that ironically pervades people living in congested now-megacities replete with endless urban sprawl...

You identify with the obfuscated outline of a person even without seeing their face, their clothes, their destination... rather than the photorealistic pair of people to the side.

A pursuit of real, human truths that the Enlightenment betrayed its espoused search for.

Postmodernism denies the existence of truths and principles and reality is instead a construct of the mind. Post Modern artists such as Justin Michael Jenkins and Jose Bernal have very different styles than that of Warhol so you cannot really blanket apply anything to postmodern as you can more restricted styles as that goes against what Postmodern means. The only pursuit in Postmodernism is that of your own mind's creation.

Lil devils x:

Why would the studio be a cluttered mess? The whole idea of Minimalist decorating is to ensure you don't see the mess. My supplies, projects and tarps are nicely concealed behind smooth sleek doors out of site when not in use. Pretty much everything is stored within the walls and lines of the room. Instead of having to worry about dusting and cleaning a ton of crap all the time, you tuck it all away nicely and only need to wipe down nice smooth surfaces to clean the room. It is the opposite of a cluttered mess of a studio. The idea of minimalism is like standing on the beach looking out into the ocean and the feeling you get of openness, freedom and clarity. It is as natural as the ocean horizon or a clear blue sky.

I edited my original reply to make it more clear. The idea of minimalism being consumed as you fill the void. Minimalism's central conceit is it isn't simply consumed. That truths can be told through simplistic explorations of the theory of forms. But in the end it is merely consumed, that simplicity narrows time and space to its consumption, and that it knowingly sacrifices human dimensions in favour of intellectual wank.

Postmodernism is without boundaries and terms and to narrowly define it as such would violate it's existence.

Not so much. It defines itself by explorations of things like intertextuality and hyperreality. It uses movements of the past to critique aand destroy tradition in favour of a sense of artistic honesty. In the end, just like numerous Antimodernist movements, it will be subsumed, but leave its consumer changed. Whether the individual observer or as artistry as a whole.

Po-Mo should be observed in terms of a solution to problems that by its own material values will themselves be problematic in time.

Postmodernism denies the existence of truths and principles and reality is instead a construct of the mind. Post Modern artists such as Justin Michael Jenkins and Jose Bernal have very different styles than that of Warhol so you cannot really blanket apply anything to postmodern as you can more restricted styles as that goes against what Postmodern means. The only pursuit in Postmodernism is that of your own mind's creation.

They disagree with objective reality and simplistic conveyance. Moreover I'm describing in general the Postmodern rejection of formal metanarrative as subject.

Whats the deal with people being offended by women writing forceful males in womens romantic fiction? That sounds an awful lot like being offended on peoples behalf and fairly regressive honestly. It's fantasy so just let them be happy with their time travelling werebear stories.

Though I will say my partner was pretty angry about Claire's daughter being raped in the Outlander show as she said the book gives the impression that she just used sex to get what she wanted and had sex willingly. The shows writers obviously consider rape a Fraser family tradition as the three of them have all had it happen now.

Here Comes Tomorrow:
Whats the deal with people being offended by women writing forceful males in womens romantic fiction? That sounds an awful lot like being offended on peoples behalf and fairly regressive honestly. It's fantasy so just let them be happy with their time travelling werebear stories.

Though I will say my partner was pretty angry about Claire's daughter being raped in the Outlander show as she said the book gives the impression that she just used sex to get what she wanted and had sex willingly. The shows writers obviously consider rape a Fraser family tradition as the three of them have all had it happen now.

Its not the assertiveness, which more times than not stuff made by females for females will tell you is hot. Its the fact that they seem too forceful, or a situation where the consent is questionable at best. This works both ways, as what is plaid off as cute in Queen Latifa's Last Holiday came off more stalkerish than cute in the same way Edward Cullen comes off for excample.

The rape issue is one that is troubling on a number of issues. No I have not seen Outlander, but Game of Thrones had a simalar one with Denaris' consummation with Drogo. It was more mutual the first time around and the book as Marital Rape. Only got through the first hundred pages of the book before had to turn it back to the library, but if the rest of their sex life is anything like the show, where Jason Mamoa tried to break the tension for Emilia Clark by wearing a bright pink sock on his member. It worked. but she laughed too much for the scene so Mamoa was asked to stop.

As for Minimalism argument: It can have some hillarious unintentional consequenses. Remember the WTFIWWY eppisode that dealt with the Year of the Butt Monkey?
Anyways before I went, SQUIRL!, this seems to be a problem. Can't think of a better way to add tension to a scene? Rape!! TV Tropes has a whole trope of it called Gratuitous rape, that sums it up as: Unnecessary amounts of forceful coitous (does not add to the character or scene)

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