Captain Marvel or How Marvel does everything better than everyone else

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thebobmaster:
Here's my perspective on Captain Marvel: I quite liked the movie. It wasn't my favorite Marvel movie, but it was pretty damn far from the bottom of the list as well.

That's not saying much is it? That's like 20 movies now. And this isn't exactly Top 10 material.

Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

As far as the final fight and the climax goes: I've been watching a lot of ONE material lately, so a climax where one character is automatically and unquestionably stronger than the other isn't a deal breaker. I mean, let's be honest here: Captain Marvel wasn't going to lose. The Earth wasn't getting bombed. Fury was going to be fine. It's the nature of prequels. The drama is how the protagonist, kept suppressed by lies, gaslighting, and mechanical chicanery, grows into their rightful power and how they choose to express that. Superman origin story ala anybody but WB's movie division.

Having a punch up where Danvers proves to Kree Asshole that she can beat him on his own terms is irrelevant: she does what she wants, fuck that guy in particular. He doesn't rate.

Saw it last weekend, it was pretty good. I didn't totally love it, but it was a good romp, and I'm happy for the people who felt that it really spoke to them.

Also loved that one scene where our heroine was just plain pragmatic and didn't fall for some obvious bait that so many heroes (including Cap one time) tend to fall for.

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

Abomination:

It's an MCU film, it's for everyone. Just like how every other Disney film is for everyone.

Maybe I can explain the "movie ain't for dudes" comment?

See, the movie's central conflict is one that appeals more to women, as it's something that a lot of women tend to feel in their lives.

I've seen plenty of guys scratch their heads at certain aspects of the movie and not like them, and for many of the women I know to love the movie for those same aspects.

The TLDR non-spoiler version is that it's not an underdog story at all.

So, yeah, the plot is something that's likely to appeal more to women than guys. Not saying that guys can't enjoy it, I certainly did.

It's kinda like how Rambo or Robocop can be enjoyed by women, but it's more likely to appeal to guys just based on the premise.

altnameJag:
Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

aegix drakan:
Maybe I can explain the "movie ain't for dudes" comment?

See, the movie's central conflict is one that appeals more to women, as it's something that a lot of women tend to feel in their lives.

I've seen plenty of guys scratch their heads at certain aspects of the movie and not like them, and for many of the women I know to love the movie for those same aspects.

So, yeah, the plot is something that's likely to appeal more to women than guys. Not saying that guys can't enjoy it, I certainly did.

It's kinda like how Rambo or Robocop can be enjoyed by women, but it's more likely to appeal to guys just based on the premise.

I totally understand having a films targeted demographic be female rather than male, that's totally a-okay.

What's not a-okay is saying that they don't care for the opinions of a certain sex/gender, because if the shoe was on the other foot we all know it would be cause for absurd levels of accusations of misogyny.

Make a film about whatever you want, dislike a film for whatever reason you want, love a film for whatever reason you want, angle a film to whatever audience you want, just don't be a hypocrite when it comes to criticism.

"It's not for you" was the call of most media before the early 2000s and it was quashed by gender egalitarians for good reason. Now it rears its head again. That's not cool. Sexism is sexism.

aegix drakan:

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

I think Thor might have more power at her at this point.

But that aside, as far as 'power levels' go, I'm left to ask, what the heck are Black Widow and Hawkeye meant to do against Thanos? Use sticks and harsh language? Because itty bitty bows and guns may as well be that.

Hawki:

aegix drakan:

Honestly, my only real concern is that Carol is OP as hell, and I'm wondering how (if she stays on as a full time Avenger) they can keep the narrative stakes in place considering her raw power. I'm not worried about Endgame, because Thanos is also suitably OP as hell. Just if she stays afterwards at her current level.

I think Thor might have more power at her at this point.

But that aside, as far as 'power levels' go, I'm left to ask, what the heck are Black Widow and Hawkeye meant to do against Thanos? Use sticks and harsh language? Because itty bitty bows and guns may as well be that.

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

So I see Brie Larson's comments have come up again. Guess I'll reiterate my past stance - the comments bother me, but not for the reasons that so many people have stated. It isn't that I feel I've been slandered against by virtue of gender and skin colour, it's that if we take this idea and run with it, any form of criticism can be dismissed based on the identity of said person doing the critiquing. Rambo and Robocop have already been pointed out as being targeted towards men, but it would be disingenous to say "I'm not interested in the perspective of girls."

Like, I get what Larson was saying (it's good to have diversity in media criticism), and I absolutely agree. But taking them as writ, we're left with the above idea and it's not one I can get behind.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

If they're anything like the goons in Infinity War, it still seems kinda out of reach for them. The goons gave Iron Man and Peter a run for their money after all.

Hawki:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

I'm sure he'll have goons to beat up.

If they're anything like the goons in Infinity War, it still seems kinda out of reach for them. The goons gave Iron Man and Peter a run for their money after all.

Just point the pair of them at some Chitauri, same as they handled in Avengers 1. Thanos seems to still have plenty of them kicking around

So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

Kwak:
So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

Do you know how much bacteria is on a cats claws? Cat scratches are no joke.

Johnny Novgorod:

altnameJag:
Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

'Im not sexist, but I only get mad when women say supposedly sexist things, never when men do though'.

What Brie said wasn't sexist, and people are just getting mad at her cause she is a woman. Just because some people don't like when people point out social injustices, doesn't mean we're wrong.

Maybe bigotry is just actually a big problem and pretending it isn't or that it doesn't exist is itself a huge problem.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Johnny Novgorod:

altnameJag:
Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Johnny Novgorod:

altnameJag:
Top five for me, but that's opinions for you.

Then again, Larson is the first actor/actress I've seen in a while that wasn't doing low-level pantomime. The subtlety was refreshing.

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Fair enough, though I'd argue those two naturally branch off her dull sense of determination.

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Johnny Novgorod:

I thought there was no character to her. She's just generically "determined", as is every female lead in the MCU that isn't Mantis.

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Hey. That's not true. She was unfunny and smug also.

Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

Fury keeps interrupting her investigation and if I got this moment right, is the exact point when, in Danvers mind, Fury is highly likely to be a double agent. There is a big shift in her attitude when she has to decide on completing the mission or helping Fury. She visibly groans in frustration, because its against her training. Then a new found respect for Fury develops after Coulson let's them go, that he inspires that sort of loyalty. Then another once she finds out about the Skrulls and again, has to fight her programming. Instead of charging head first like normal, she has to plan and manipulate the situation to her advantage.

She goes from an arrogant, mission orientation, laser focussed solider to a willing to listen, having people's backs, thoughtful, nuanced character that thinks through the situation rather than bashed like she used to, through a series of choices that goes against her training.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Kwak:
So Fury officially lost his eye to a scratch from a cat. It's pretty clear the MCU just makes shit up according to what is deemed a worthy throw-away joke. Great stuff.

Do you know how much bacteria is on a cats claws? Cat scratches are no joke.

So I've heard...

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

trunkage:
Well, the men leads in the MCU are generically quippy. Except Black Panther, who is a bore and Shuri upstages every time. 20 movies of quipping just gets boring.

I'm personally glad they're trying something different instead of just relying on quips but it does lose it comedic value.

As to smug, I suggest that's more your response to Larsen tweet. Which, I'm going to remind everyone, she APOLOGIZED for and said she made a mistake

Because it's more important to focus on the mistakes rather apologies. We can never be forgiven for our misdeeds

I've never read any "Larson tweet", I've not really paid attention to the controversy around it because I assumed (correctly it seems) that it was a few dribblers that the media was blowing out of proportion.

But her line delivery was smug. Look at the clips of her telling Fury that he asked a relevant question or when she destroys the juke box. If someone talked to me like that in real life I probably start avoiding that person.

Fury keeps interrupting her investigation and if I got this moment right, is the exact point when, in Danvers mind, Fury is highly likely to be a double agent. There is a big shift in her attitude when she has to decide on completing the mission or helping Fury. She visibly groans in frustration, because its against her training. Then a new found respect for Fury develops after Coulson let's them go, that he inspires that sort of loyalty. Then another once she finds out about the Skrulls and again, has to fight her programming. Instead of charging head first like normal, she has to plan and manipulate the situation to her advantage.

She goes from an arrogant, mission orientation, laser focussed solider to a willing to listen, having people's backs, thoughtful, nuanced character that thinks through the situation rather than bashed like she used to, through a series of choices that goes against her training.

I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

Here Comes Tomorrow:
I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

I'm bothering because I like to find out people's point of views. The point of talking is not to always to convince the other person to your way of thinking. It's to understand.

Now, sure, it can be disheartening when the person wants to dismiss you and claims that your just making stuff up. But that's just how it goes.

So, at the start, Danvers charges ahead of her team because she thinks she can finish the objective (i.e. arrogant). Jude Law knows what she is like and warns her not to do this. Even the Skrulls knows this, use her personality fault against her and her arrogance is what traps her.

Later, she plans an escape, using herself as a distraction. This wouldn't have happened if we had Danvers from the start of the movie. She's unimportant compared to what she's protecting. Now, you seem to be calling her arrogant becuase she's willing to take on all the heavy hitters. But she's buying time, not necessarily trying to win. It's no longer about her, it's about getting everyone to escape

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:
I think you're filling in a lot of blanks there. At the end of the film she's still arrogant,she's just stronger and not being controlled by the kree.

I don't remember there being any evidence of her being mission orientated laser focussed more so than a soldier normally would be. We see her getting told to control her power by Jude Law then that the Supreme Intelligence doesn't think she should be in Starforce then shes off on a mission anyway. We don't see her refusing to socialise with the rest of her squad to train or anything that would indicate that shes a super-focussed soldier.

If I remember she only listens to the skrulls in the first place because they hold a child hostage. She works with Fury because he wants to fight the skrulls and she wants to figure out her memories. To her, completing her mission and working with Fury are the same thing.

I dunno why I'm bothering though because you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. Avengers 4 is out this week and no one will remember this movie in a few years.

I'm bothering because I like to find out people's point of views. The point of talking is not to always to convince the other person to your way of thinking. It's to understand.

Now, sure, it can be disheartening when the person wants to dismiss you and claims that your just making stuff up. But that's just how it goes.

So, at the start, Danvers charges ahead of her team because she thinks she can finish the objective (i.e. arrogant). Jude Law knows what she is like and warns her not to do this. Even the Skrulls knows this, use her personality fault against her and her arrogance is what traps her.

Later, she plans an escape, using herself as a distraction. This wouldn't have happened if we had Danvers from the start of the movie. She's unimportant compared to what she's protecting. Now, you seem to be calling her arrogant becuase she's willing to take on all the heavy hitters. But she's buying time, not necessarily trying to win. It's no longer about her, it's about getting everyone to escape

She's arrogant and head strong because of her powers though, we don't know if she did it out of selflessness because she doesn't have to, shes very rarely in any danger.

The one time she is at a disadvantage is when shes fighting on the skrull ship and has her fist-beams blocked. She solves the problem by brute force and getting stronger then from that point on she has the advantage over everyone she fights. She knows that because the Kree have told her that shes super strong but they control it. A great TWEEST would have been that shes NOT incredibly powerful and her strength IS her willpower, natural skills and bravery but even in the finale the only threat is to other people.

There's no "jump on a grenade" scene like Captain America had or depowered Thor facing the Destroyer to help his friends. Hell, Captain America wasn't even helping friends, its just to help squadmates who treated him like shit, but he still threw himself on that grenade because he doesn't want people getting hurt if he can help it. Captain Marvel helps the skrulls out of, as far as I can see, mostly guilt over her part in their persecution. Like when she was chasing down the skrull on the train if she'd witnessed a crime or someone in need of help and abandoned the chase to help, then that would have been enough to establish that she's naturally inclined to help people.

I'm not saying guilt isn't a good motivator, Spider-Man is motivated by guilt as well. The difference is that we KNOW Spider-Man will selflessly help people. He throws himself into a fire to retrieve the Vulture instead of letting him die. By comparison Captain Marvel basically slaughters her squad without hesitation. She doesn't try to reason with them or disable them to talk them around despite hugely overpowering them, she just kills them all. inb4 "but they were genocidal space nazis who cares?" Reminder; Gamora and Nebula were also working with/are (I think Drax says something about Gamora leading some of the 50% murder campaign, might be misremembering) genocidal space nazis and we all like them now, how do we know one of Carols squad wasn't in a similar situation? We don't because they're given no development so we don't feel bad when Carol butchers them effortlessly. It'd be like if Iron Man just straight away murdered Captain America at the end of Civil War. I'm pretty sure she even straight up says to Jude Law she's letting him live so he can deliver a message. Might also be misremembering that.

tl;dr Captain Marvel is still the worst, least developed character in an okay film

Here Comes Tomorrow:
snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:
snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Thor and Iron Man etc overcome their arrogance and learn to be humble, Carol doesn't. I'll focus on Thor since entire plot of Thor 1 is that he's a giant arrogant dickhole and until he stops being one he's not going to be a suitable leader. Thor's arrogance leads to him nearly getting all his friends killed and reigniting a war. Arrogance is not a heroic trait because it results in people getting hurt which is the opposite of what a hero should be doing. Tony Stark's arrogance leads to middle eastern civilians getting killed, Strange's arrogance is a bit more indirect but hes shown as being a surgeon who can preform operations others can't. So the a surgeon of his level losing fine motor skills means that people he could have saved won't be.

I don't remember Quill, being arrogant though. He sacrifices himself TWICE in one film for his friends. Maybe you're confusing confidence for arrogance? As I said, Carol has no heroic moment. You said yourself she endangers her squad in the opening scene.

Also the point of Civil War was that there is no "right" side sometimes and honestly, it was a bad choice of plotline for a film because the themes aren't really suitable for capeshit films. The comic storyline was a bit more nuanced because it had the room to explore different parts of the argument. A big aspect being that Government registration would require heroes to reveal their identities which wasn't an issue in the MCU because none of the heroes at the time really had a secret identity.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:
snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Thor and Iron Man etc overcome their arrogance and learn to be humble, Carol doesn't. I'll focus on Thor since entire plot of Thor 1 is that he's a giant arrogant dickhole and until he stops being one he's not going to be a suitable leader. Thor's arrogance leads to him nearly getting all his friends killed and reigniting a war. Arrogance is not a heroic trait because it results in people getting hurt which is the opposite of what a hero should be doing. Tony Stark's arrogance leads to middle eastern civilians getting killed, Strange's arrogance is a bit more indirect but hes shown as being a surgeon who can preform operations others can't. So the a surgeon of his level losing fine motor skills means that people he could have saved won't be.

I don't remember Quill, being arrogant though. He sacrifices himself TWICE in one film for his friends. Maybe you're confusing confidence for arrogance? As I said, Carol has no heroic moment. You said yourself she endangers her squad in the opening scene.

Also the point of Civil War was that there is no "right" side sometimes and honestly, it was a bad choice of plotline for a film because the themes aren't really suitable for capeshit films. The comic storyline was a bit more nuanced because it had the room to explore different parts of the argument. A big aspect being that Government registration would require heroes to reveal their identities which wasn't an issue in the MCU because none of the heroes at the time really had a secret identity.

Didn't Danvers sacrifice herself to let the Skrulls escape? Fought off her old unit?

Also, Strange and Stark meeting showed that those two have learnt no lessons

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:
snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Straight talk? Cause she's a woman. I'm honestly surprised "bossy" and "bitchy" haven't been thrown out in this thread already (or maybe I just missed them).

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

trunkage:
Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Thor and Iron Man etc overcome their arrogance and learn to be humble, Carol doesn't. I'll focus on Thor since entire plot of Thor 1 is that he's a giant arrogant dickhole and until he stops being one he's not going to be a suitable leader. Thor's arrogance leads to him nearly getting all his friends killed and reigniting a war. Arrogance is not a heroic trait because it results in people getting hurt which is the opposite of what a hero should be doing. Tony Stark's arrogance leads to middle eastern civilians getting killed, Strange's arrogance is a bit more indirect but hes shown as being a surgeon who can preform operations others can't. So the a surgeon of his level losing fine motor skills means that people he could have saved won't be.

I don't remember Quill, being arrogant though. He sacrifices himself TWICE in one film for his friends. Maybe you're confusing confidence for arrogance? As I said, Carol has no heroic moment. You said yourself she endangers her squad in the opening scene.

Also the point of Civil War was that there is no "right" side sometimes and honestly, it was a bad choice of plotline for a film because the themes aren't really suitable for capeshit films. The comic storyline was a bit more nuanced because it had the room to explore different parts of the argument. A big aspect being that Government registration would require heroes to reveal their identities which wasn't an issue in the MCU because none of the heroes at the time really had a secret identity.

Didn't Danvers sacrifice herself to let the Skrulls escape? Fought off her old unit?

Also, Strange and Stark meeting showed that those two have learnt no lessons

Again, she didn't sacrifice herself because she knew she vastly overpowered her squad.

As for Stark and Strange they met while an alien ship was invading Manhattan (again) and Stark didn't know who strange was. Suspicion isn't the same as caution.

Avnger:

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:
snip

Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Straight talk? Cause she's a woman. I'm honestly surprised "bossy" and "bitchy" haven't been thrown out in this thread already (or maybe I just missed them).

https://youtu.be/2nv1dZCHtm8

Maybe you haven't seen anyone call her bossy or bitchy because no one here is sexist and just dislike her because shes an unlikeable character? Women can be dicks as well.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Avnger:

trunkage:
Side question. Why is her arrogance so bad for her character? Over Stark's arrogance. Or Thor's. Or Quill's or Strange's. Fury's or Captain America's. I mean, Civil War wouldn't have happened if Stark and Cap weren't so utterly arrogant and they destroyed an airfield and got their buddies locked up.

Argoance is MCU staple. Except for Antman and Hawkeye. And maybe Hulk

Straight talk? Cause she's a woman. I'm honestly surprised "bossy" and "bitchy" haven't been thrown out in this thread already (or maybe I just missed them).

https://youtu.be/2nv1dZCHtm8

Maybe you haven't seen anyone call her bossy or bitchy because no one here is sexist and just dislike her because shes an unlikeable character? Women can be dicks as well.

And yet Captain Marvel is getting more shit for being 'the same' as the other MALE MCU heroes.

And there are definitely people in this very thread who are sexist against women. I'd point them out, but pointing out bigotry tends to be more of a no-no here than actually being bigoted.

Saelune:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Avnger:

Straight talk? Cause she's a woman. I'm honestly surprised "bossy" and "bitchy" haven't been thrown out in this thread already (or maybe I just missed them).

https://youtu.be/2nv1dZCHtm8

Maybe you haven't seen anyone call her bossy or bitchy because no one here is sexist and just dislike her because shes an unlikeable character? Women can be dicks as well.

And yet Captain Marvel is getting more shit for being 'the same' as the other MALE MCU heroes.

And there are definitely people in this very thread who are sexist against women. I'd point them out, but pointing out bigotry tends to be more of a no-no here than actually being bigoted.

1. As I've said, the Marvel MCU isn't a stranger to hubris, but at the end of the film the characters have usually been humbled and learn to not be arseholes.

2. Why do you only chime into the discussion to accuse people of sexism? You haven't really defended the film as just a film as far as I remember, you only comment on the political aspects surrounding it rather than the film itself.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Saelune:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

https://youtu.be/2nv1dZCHtm8

Maybe you haven't seen anyone call her bossy or bitchy because no one here is sexist and just dislike her because shes an unlikeable character? Women can be dicks as well.

And yet Captain Marvel is getting more shit for being 'the same' as the other MALE MCU heroes.

And there are definitely people in this very thread who are sexist against women. I'd point them out, but pointing out bigotry tends to be more of a no-no here than actually being bigoted.

1. As I've said, the Marvel MCU isn't a stranger to hubris, but at the end of the film the characters have usually been humbled and learn to not be arseholes.

2. Why do you only chime into the discussion to accuse people of sexism? You haven't really defended the film as just a film as far as I remember, you only comment on the political aspects surrounding it rather than the film itself.

Why are you so quick to dismiss the sexism that you repeatedly claim is not real?

Also I made this thread in the first place. I already made my points, and I think the number of people who disparage it because of their own sexism is a big problem. And yes, there are some here who have criticized the film without being sexist too.

Carol is not an asshole by the end of the film. Oh she punched a villain at the end? In what way is she an asshole? I don't see you aiding the remnants of a civilization that you were once lead to believe were monsters but then got over your unfair bias to defend.

Saelune:
I don't see you aiding the remnants of a civilization that you were once lead to believe were monsters but then got over your unfair bias to defend.

Fucking 10/10 counter argument. I wish this forum had emojis because I'd be typing clapping ones right now if I could.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

trunkage:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Thor and Iron Man etc overcome their arrogance and learn to be humble, Carol doesn't. I'll focus on Thor since entire plot of Thor 1 is that he's a giant arrogant dickhole and until he stops being one he's not going to be a suitable leader. Thor's arrogance leads to him nearly getting all his friends killed and reigniting a war. Arrogance is not a heroic trait because it results in people getting hurt which is the opposite of what a hero should be doing. Tony Stark's arrogance leads to middle eastern civilians getting killed, Strange's arrogance is a bit more indirect but hes shown as being a surgeon who can preform operations others can't. So the a surgeon of his level losing fine motor skills means that people he could have saved won't be.

I don't remember Quill, being arrogant though. He sacrifices himself TWICE in one film for his friends. Maybe you're confusing confidence for arrogance? As I said, Carol has no heroic moment. You said yourself she endangers her squad in the opening scene.

Also the point of Civil War was that there is no "right" side sometimes and honestly, it was a bad choice of plotline for a film because the themes aren't really suitable for capeshit films. The comic storyline was a bit more nuanced because it had the room to explore different parts of the argument. A big aspect being that Government registration would require heroes to reveal their identities which wasn't an issue in the MCU because none of the heroes at the time really had a secret identity.

Didn't Danvers sacrifice herself to let the Skrulls escape? Fought off her old unit?

Also, Strange and Stark meeting showed that those two have learnt no lessons

Again, she didn't sacrifice herself because she knew she vastly overpowered her squad.

As for Stark and Strange they met while an alien ship was invading Manhattan (again) and Stark didn't know who strange was. Suspicion isn't the same as caution.

Ah, got side tracked with this stuff again. So, it's been a while but I thought, at that moment, a big ship was coming to destroy the station. Is she bullet proof? Explosion proof? I didn't see any of that. She certainly is worried about touching the Tesseract, which does make her less resilient than Quill. When I say sacrifice, I mean she is likely to be blown up.

Anyway, arrogance. Remember when Stark thought that the only responsible person who could wear his suit was himself. Rhodes straight up steals his suit and only gets it reluctantly because Stark needs help. He sure learnt to be less arrogant. What about the time when he makes an AI? And then, to fix the problems of that AI, HE DOES EXACTLY THE SAME THING to make another AI, and arrogantly puts down anyone who disagrees. Wow, he sure learnt to be less arrogant. What about the time he goads a terrorist who blows up his house? Stark is so humble. Spiderman wants to help and Stark doesn't mentor him, he just says Peter is incompetent and takes his toys. What a role model.

And, most importantly, at the end of the first movie, he tells everyone he's Iron Man, putting heaps of people in danger, especially Potts. He learnt very little in Iron Man 1, except to track where his weapons go.

This doesn't excuse Danvers 'arrogance' at the end of the movie. I could see she is still somewhat arrogant, but nothing like at the start of the movie. And little less arrogant is pretty much what Marvel does. I have never thought of Start as anything but arrogant. Humble is definitely not a term that has existed in his vocabulary (maybe with his defeat with Thanos, I'll wait and see.)

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Saelune:
I don't see you aiding the remnants of a civilization that you were once lead to believe were monsters but then got over your unfair bias to defend.

Fucking 10/10 counter argument. I wish this forum had emojis because I'd be typing clapping ones right now if I could.

So you have chosen to concede?

Well I'm off to see Avengers: No One's Ever Really Gone in a few hours. My predictions are Thanos falls to his death, and everybody gets resurrected.

Johnny Novgorod:
Well I'm off to see Avengers: No One's Ever Really Gone in a few hours. My predictions are Thanos falls to his death, and everybody gets resurrected.

Why "falls to his death?" Because of Gamora?

Anyway, I may see it this weekend, but 3 hours? Christ.

Saelune:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Saelune:
I don't see you aiding the remnants of a civilization that you were once lead to believe were monsters but then got over your unfair bias to defend.

Fucking 10/10 counter argument. I wish this forum had emojis because I'd be typing clapping ones right now if I could.

So you have chosen to concede?

I've chosen to concede that you don't actually have any opinion on this movie besides "woman is good so cannot be bad". When one of your arguments against me is that I've not helped stop a genocide and found some refugee aliens a new home planet I kind of feel like you're not arguing in good faith.

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