[POLITICS] If Trump is Innocent, he should prove it

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tstorm823:

Literally every time Democrats win in a general election, people start talking about how the Republicans have no support and will probably disappear completely in a few years. Obama killed the Republican Party forever, just like Clinton did, just like Lyndon Johnson did in 1964, and yet here we are.

Absolutely: they'll just adopt whatever ideological crazy grabs enough extra support for next election. Evangelical Christians in the 80s, then Tea Party libertarians, now the white nationalist fringe. That's how all those traditional Republicans once very safely conservative started to get called RINOs a few years ago and then started quitting politics after Trump was elected.

TheIronRuler:

Leg End:

CaitSeith:

Something to clear first. Democrats may or may not care about you; but the GOP is openly hostile towards you. Why to vote for the latter?

Well, I have a few takes on this myself. Assuming the Democrats are simply apathetic and the GOP is openly hostile, I've always preferred the gun to my face than the one to my back, especially if the one to my back is because I'm no longer useful. On a more realistic approach, I've found both openly hostile to me at one point or another, and often at the same time. Democrats despise me for being a Latino with questionable location on the LGBTBBQ umbrella that think we need to secure our border and that I like guns, as well as thinking Nanny State policies are dumb and I'd rather not be reliant on the State(all of that is rather hostile, but you get the idea) and prefer to just give money out of pocket to help people or ask for help instead of using force to do it. GOP hates me for calling them pussies because I go far harder on freedom than they do and shit on them for hypocrisy, as well as the umbrella thing. The difference is that I see the Democrats as seeing me as a useful pet until I disagree with them, then I get called an Uncle Tom and am a part of the statistic of strange Latinos that made the mistake of voting for Trump when clearly our race should vote as a collective for one party.

Just from all that crap I just said, you can probably get a lock on my feelings regarding politics in general. I just want to be left the fuck alone, but nobody can quite grasp such an apparently antiquated concept.

.
I love it when your support for a candidate is assumed because of your identity and not your ideological beliefs. I'm someone from a country with a parliamentary system, which has particularly many sectorial parties (a "sector" of the population), it can get very old when your identity literally translates to your preferred party.

Yeah. I have no idea why gay and trans people, when choosing political parties, choose the party that accepts them instead of the one that wants to sent them to reeducation camps.

I mean hello

Camps are fun

Agema:

Absolutely: they'll just adopt whatever ideological crazy grabs enough extra support for next election. Evangelical Christians in the 80s, then Tea Party libertarians, now the white nationalist fringe. That's how all those traditional Republicans once very safely conservative started to get called RINOs a few years ago and then started quitting politics after Trump was elected.

Unfortunately for you, I know you know this isn't true.

Unfortunately for me, I can't prove it because R&P got nuked.

But you have personally backed me up in a thread before on the fact that at least relative to the fluctuations of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party has been roughly stable on most positions for 100+ years.

tstorm823:

The world is about to swing culturally in a way you don't expect. Studies indicate young people, gen z, are about as politically conservative as millenials. The thing is, people get more conservative as they age, which means that gen z is actually more conservative than millenials in the long run. And as a matter of personal behavior, gen z is less sexually active, less high, and less drunk than recent previous generations as teenagers. People keep trying to find ways to pin this on smart phones or fast food, but the truth is much more simple than that. Kids can tell that the people who depend on these things are just genuinely miserable. Kids are going to emulate the people who are happy, and right now the people who are happy are the Christian conservatives with traditional families. What's "progressive" and what's "conservative" are going to change greatly, but not for the reasons you think. People aren't just going to give up on Christian sexual morality, the opposite is going to happen. Whether or not the Bible is involved, we're going to have a return to the culture of sexuality, parenthood, and marriage being united concepts, because people would rather be happy than miserable.

Conservatism is on the rise in the younger generation to be sure. But not christian conservatism. They might be influenced by christianity in their talks of abortion issues and morality, but they aren't christian. Atheism or at least secularist non religious thinking is on the rise in pretty much all first world countries. So what you will probably see is more and more atheist conservatives. There are christians saying that the churches are in a crisis right now and at risk of dieing in two generations if current trends keep up.

Based on the numbers I've seen that conservatism is on the rise I'll admit thats true, I don't like it but its true. But I don't like christianity at all and I'm glad to see it fade. Anecdotally the local church gave us hell when it came out my boss/church leader/landlord was a child molester and they knew and protected him. They weren't even catholic just pentacostal but they all protect sex offenders to protect their churches spotless image and keep tithes up. And on a grander note I don't like christianity because it involves so much control, giving up autonomy to your church leaders and god. It's weird how conservative christians are so big on freedom and democracy yet they are still happy to have a 'Lord'.

Leg End:

Just from all that crap I just said, you can probably get a lock on my feelings regarding politics in general. I just want to be left the fuck alone, but nobody can quite grasp such an apparently antiquated concept.

Then why did you vote for someone who refuses to leave people the fuck alone?

Fieldy409:

Conservatism is on the rise in the younger generation to be sure. But not christian conservatism. They might be influenced by christianity in their talks of abortion issues and morality, but they aren't christian. Atheism or at least secularist non religious thinking is on the rise in pretty much all first world countries. So what you will probably see is more and more atheist conservatives. There are christians saying that the churches are in a crisis right now and at risk of dieing in two generations if current trends keep up.

Based on the numbers I've seen that conservatism is on the rise I'll admit thats true, I don't like it but its true. But I don't like christianity at all and I'm glad to see it fade. Anecdotally the local church gave us hell when it came out my boss/church leader/landlord was a child molester and they knew and protected him. They weren't even catholic just pentacostal but they all protect sex offenders to protect their churches spotless image and keep tithes up. And on a grander note I don't like christianity because it involves so much control, giving up autonomy to your church leaders and god. It's weird how conservative christians are so big on freedom and democracy yet they are still happy to have a 'Lord'.

Christianity isn't going anywhere. It's not in a good place right now, but that issue's as old as Protestantism. There's a pile of irony in your statement that "They weren't even Catholic." Catholics aren't actually particularly prone to child molestation, the Catholic Church just had the best kept records of it. The atrocity of Clergy Sexual Abuse isn't actually that it was rampant, it's that clergy are supposed meet higher moral standards, And of course the "cover-up" of removing most from their positions, separating victims from predators, and maintaining permanent records for when the crime is reported 50 years later. The truth of the matter is that something like 10% of children are sexually abused in some way and most of the time there is no record made or protection given. Catholic priests are less likely to molest a child than basically any other profession that works with children, especially in this millennium, so while you resent the Church, you happen to be holding it to a higher standard than secular institutions without realizing it.

Atheism has passed its local maximum. The days of the 4 horseman have passed, r/atheism collapsed, the "rational" sphere slowly moved on from complaining about Christians to "defending" either equality or liberty depending on their personal slant, and some time soon they're going to realize something. The champions of equality on the left often seem to have detached themselves from objective reality for the same reason that the champions of free speech on the right often seem like they've lost moral sense. It's not that they're actually crazy or evil, it's just that they've denied Christianity. Both sides have taken perfectly rational philosophies and ripped the foundation out of them, and can't seem to figure out why people don't understand their reasoning. I'm not saying you can't have a coherent worldview without Jesus, but you can't take a coherent worldview built on Jesus, rip the Jesus out, and expect the world to make sense. A lot of my generation is going to have to take a hard look at Christianity, not like a rebellious teenager insistent on being smarter than the authority, but an honest look that seeks to understand what religion really is (the answer to that is mostly gratitude).

6 or 7 years ago, I said on this website that New Atheism was a dying fad. I'm willing to make a bolder claim now, I think we'll have a major surge in Catholicism in the west in like a decade.

Saelune:
Then why did you vote for someone who refuses to leave people the fuck alone?

Because Gary Johnson was/is shit, so I voted for the guy that was most oriented to leaving me and everyone else the fuck alone, over the woman promising to not leave me alone, as well as probably put my ass on a watchlist and rip my rights away from me because I have my own opinions.

Leg End:

Saelune:
Then why did you vote for someone who refuses to leave people the fuck alone?

Because Gary Johnson was/is shit, so I voted for the guy that was most oriented to leaving me and everyone else the fuck alone, over the woman promising to not leave me alone, as well as probably put my ass on a watchlist and rip my rights away from me because I have my own opinions.

[Citation needed] I have yet to hear of anyone saying they will put you on a watch list and rip your rights from you because you have your own opinions.

I wasn't aware there were any candidates in memory who were actually going to leave anyone alone. That ceased long ago when all property became owned by someone.

Leg End:

Saelune:
Then why did you vote for someone who refuses to leave people the fuck alone?

Because Gary Johnson was/is shit, so I voted for the guy that was most oriented to leaving me and everyone else the fuck alone, over the woman promising to not leave me alone, as well as probably put my ass on a watchlist and rip my rights away from me because I have my own opinions.

But you didn't vote for the guy who would leave people alone. You explicitly voted for a guy who promised to pester the fuck out of people.

If you genuinely believe that Trump was the person you say, well for one, I don't believe you genuinely believe that, but if you did, you were really really really wrong.

You could always just admit you were wrong and work with those who actually want to leave people alone instead though.

Lil devils x:

Leg End:

Saelune:
Then why did you vote for someone who refuses to leave people the fuck alone?

Because Gary Johnson was/is shit, so I voted for the guy that was most oriented to leaving me and everyone else the fuck alone, over the woman promising to not leave me alone, as well as probably put my ass on a watchlist and rip my rights away from me because I have my own opinions.

[Citation needed] I have yet to hear of anyone saying they will put you on a watch list and rip your rights from you because you have your own opinions.

I wasn't aware there were any candidates in memory who were actually going to leave anyone alone. That ceased long ago when all property became owned by someone.

Republicans created the Patriot Act. But that's just another example of how Leg End votes for the people who do the opposite of what Leg End claims to want.

tstorm823:

Unfortunately for you, I know you know this isn't true.

Unfortunately for me, I can't prove it because R&P got nuked.

But you have personally backed me up in a thread before on the fact that at least relative to the fluctuations of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party has been roughly stable on most positions for 100+ years.

I think they're both true.

There are consistent ideological strains throughout the Republican Party over the years - chiefly things like inclination towards individualism and pro-business policies. But it's also true that this has been supplemented over the decades by co-opting new groups. It chose to take over the South, so took all their attitudes, including anti-abortion and evangelical attitudes. Then it took massively increased extremism - from fiscal responsibility to Norquist's absolutist tax reduction at any cost, the Tea Party, and now white nationalism to bolster its flagging appeal.

Donald Trump is the logical consequence of where Republicans have been moving the last few decades. Yes, core values still ruumbling away there, but now merged with its embrace of very new ideas that a Republican of the 1950s might not recognise or like. And in fact, I'd suggest plenty of people like them in the modern day are now Democrats.

Saelune:
But you didn't vote for the guy who would leave people alone. You explicitly voted for a guy who promised to pester the fuck out of people.

To me, that was Clinton.

If you genuinely believe that Trump was the person you say, well for one, I don't believe you genuinely believe that,

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

but if you did, you were really really really wrong.

Or on an inverse, suspicions during the debates were right. Did you really think I wasn't wary of statements made? Particularly any he agreed with Clinton on.

You could always just admit you were wrong and work with those who actually want to leave people alone instead though.

Libertarians? Already a member.

Saelune:
Republicans created the Patriot Act. But that's just another example of how Leg End votes for the people who do the opposite of what Leg End claims to want.

And Democrats largely approved of it. And don't forget that Obama effectively renewed it twice.

Leg End:

Saelune:
But you didn't vote for the guy who would leave people alone. You explicitly voted for a guy who promised to pester the fuck out of people.

To me, that was Clinton.

If you genuinely believe that Trump was the person you say, well for one, I don't believe you genuinely believe that,

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

but if you did, you were really really really wrong.

Or on an inverse, suspicions during the debates were right. Did you really think I wasn't wary of statements made? Particularly any he agreed with Clinton on.

You could always just admit you were wrong and work with those who actually want to leave people alone instead though.

Libertarians? Already a member.

Saelune:
Republicans created the Patriot Act. But that's just another example of how Leg End votes for the people who do the opposite of what Leg End claims to want.

And Democrats largely approved of it. And don't forget that Obama effectively renewed it twice.

To facts, it was Trump.

I think any one who believes Trump wasnt going to be an incompetent, bigoted, swamp monster is really stupid. I dont think you're really stupid.

So you're a hypocrite then? Cause how Trump has acted was not a surprise to us who oppose him. What keeps surprising is us how far his supports are willing to follow him despite all the reasons not to. So if what you're saying is you were paying attention, then you knowingly voted for someone who wasnt going to leave people alone. So either you're a hypocrite, or were not being honest about why you voted for him.

Libertarians are Republicans who dont want to admit it. I have never met a Libertarian who doesnt just go with what Republicans want.

185 Republicans said Yes, 3 said no.
123 Democrats said Yes, 59 said no.

Of the people who opposed it, they were Democrats.

US Politics is not perfect, the Democrat party is not perfect. But the Republican Party is unsalvagable.

Saelune:

I think any one who believes Trump wasnt going to be an incompetent, bigoted, swamp monster is really stupid. I dont think you're really stupid.

Well, thank you.

So you're a hypocrite then? Cause how Trump has acted was not a surprise to us who oppose him. What keeps surprising is us how far his supports are willing to follow him despite all the reasons not to. So if what you're saying is you were paying attention, then you knowingly voted for someone who wasnt going to leave people alone. So either you're a hypocrite, or were not being honest about why you voted for him.

Well, on one hand I have someone who was outright supporting watchlists and barring firearms ownership to those on them, on the other I have the guy I was actively rooting for deciding to shoot himself in the ass by answering in the affirmative to Clinton regarding those same restrictions, when he would have only further bolstered my support by telling her to take that shit and shove it. Was he outright bullshitting because he wanted to pander to those who trade liberty for security? Or was he serious? Either way, it was doubt versus the person actively gunning for it. Lesser of two evils mindset? Probably.

Libertarians are Republicans who dont want to admit it. I have never met a Libertarian who doesnt just go with what Republicans want.

Read this, then say that again. Hell, talk to me and see the amount of shit I've given Republicans over the years.

185 Republicans said Yes, 3 said no.
123 Democrats said Yes, 59 said no.

Of the people who opposed it, they were Democrats.

And yet over two thirds of the Dems approved it. That isn't opposing it. If the Dems actually gave a flying fuck about opposing what the bill was and stood for, that number would, at bare minimum, be flipped. If they gave a fuck about disposing of it, then Obama wouldn't have renewed it. If they gave a fuck the second time(or weren't outright supportive of it), Obama wouldn't have merely slightly altered one aspect of it that he got in hot fucking water over because he is a fucking big-ass hypocrite. They don't give a flying shit, and you defending them should be speaking as many volumes as you believe me voting for Trump does.

US Politics is not perfect, the Democrat party is not perfect. But the Republican Party is unsalvagable.

The Dems are fucking hypocrites and are never, ever getting my vote until they actually put forward their best foot that doesn't solely have "FUCK TRUMP" written on the shoe. Want my support at all? Legalization of drugs across the board, complete reversal on gun grabbing, nuking the PATRIOT Act, getting the government out of my wallet and ass, no more going after our rights in general no fucking hypocrisy. Want to be the "Good Guys"? They should fucking act like it. All they're interested in is defeating Trump. They don't give a flying fuck about anything else.

Agema:

I think they're both true.

There are consistent ideological strains throughout the Republican Party over the years - chiefly things like inclination towards individualism and pro-business policies. But it's also true that this has been supplemented over the decades by co-opting new groups. It chose to take over the South, so took all their attitudes, including anti-abortion and evangelical attitudes. Then it took massively increased extremism - from fiscal responsibility to Norquist's absolutist tax reduction at any cost, the Tea Party, and now white nationalism to bolster its flagging appeal.

Donald Trump is the logical consequence of where Republicans have been moving the last few decades. Yes, core values still ruumbling away there, but now merged with its embrace of very new ideas that a Republican of the 1950s might not recognise or like. And in fact, I'd suggest plenty of people like them in the modern day are now Democrats.

You're not a dumb person. You don't really think Republican Party is courting white supremacists. It's amazing that they make dog-whistles that apparently only the cats can hear, but it's not a very useful tool.

Leg End:

Saelune:

I think any one who believes Trump wasnt going to be an incompetent, bigoted, swamp monster is really stupid. I dont think you're really stupid.

Well, thank you.

So you're a hypocrite then? Cause how Trump has acted was not a surprise to us who oppose him. What keeps surprising is us how far his supports are willing to follow him despite all the reasons not to. So if what you're saying is you were paying attention, then you knowingly voted for someone who wasnt going to leave people alone. So either you're a hypocrite, or were not being honest about why you voted for him.

Well, on one hand I have someone who was outright supporting watchlists and barring firearms ownership to those on them, on the other I have the guy I was actively rooting for deciding to shoot himself in the ass by answering in the affirmative to Clinton regarding those same restrictions, when he would have only further bolstered my support by telling her to take that shit and shove it. Was he outright bullshitting because he wanted to pander to those who trade liberty for security? Or was he serious? Either way, it was doubt versus the person actively gunning for it. Lesser of two evils mindset? Probably.

Libertarians are Republicans who dont want to admit it. I have never met a Libertarian who doesnt just go with what Republicans want.

Read this, then say that again.

185 Republicans said Yes, 3 said no.
123 Democrats said Yes, 59 said no.

Of the people who opposed it, they were Democrats.

And yet over two thirds of the Dems approved it. That isn't opposing it. If the Dems actually gave a flying fuck about opposing what the bill was and stood for, that number would, at bare minimum, be flipped. If they gave a fuck about disposing of it, then Obama wouldn't have renewed it. If they gave a fuck the second time(or weren't outright supportive of it), Obama wouldn't have merely slightly altered one aspect of it that he got in hot fucking water over. They don't give a flying shit, and you defending them should be speaking as many volumes as you believe me voting for Trump does.

US Politics is not perfect, the Democrat party is not perfect. But the Republican Party is unsalvagable.

The Dems are fucking hypocrites and are never, ever getting my vote until they actually put forward their best foot that doesn't solely have "FUCK TRUMP" written on the shoe. Want my support at all? Legalization of drugs across the board, complete reversal on gun grabbing, nuking the PATRIOT Act, getting the government out of my wallet and ass, no more going after our rights in general no fucking hypocrisy. Want to be the "Good Guys"? They should fucking act like it. All they're interested in is defeating Trump. They don't give a flying fuck about anything else.

Its not really a compliment though.

What you actually have is a blatant liar lying. So you picked the known liar. Good job.

And Christians say they believe in Jesus, but then support unJesusly things. Libertarians do not do a good job of supporting what they say on paper they believe in. You are consistent in that regard atleast.

And yet what? More Republicans AND a far larger percentage of them supported it. The people opposing it are on the Dems side. There should be more. You talked above about the CHANCE for the thing you want, well the CHANCE here lies with Democrats. So again I have you at a crossroad of hypocrisy.

Sounds to me like it is you who is the hypocrite. If you believed in the things you claim, aside from your deep love of guns, you would bare minimum never support Republicans. You call Democrats hypocrites while being a blatant one yourself.

Seriously, let me be clear, that last paragraph of yours? REPUBLICANS ARE GUILTY OF ALL OF THAT! YOU DONT CARE ABOUT ANY OF THAT!

Saelune:
Its not really a compliment though.

Well, it's been the nicest thing you've said for a long time, so I'll take it.

What you actually have is a blatant liar lying. So you picked the known liar. Good job.

As opposed to... ablatant liar lying. Not much of a difference in that mindset, is it?

And Christians say they believe in Jesus, but then support unJesusly things.

We call those people Dickheads.

Libertarians do not do a good job of supporting what they say on paper they believe in.

Cept they kinda do, and Gary Johnson(for whatever amount of Libertarian he is) got the largest turnout in party history in 2016. Either way, Libertarians and Republicans are not the same thing. Go ahead and talk to a Libertarian and a Republican on Abortion. Watch those sparks fly.

You are consistent in that regard atleast.

Except I am consistent with my views. You're simply wanting me to choose your own brand of NotLibertarian. Democrats ruined the word Liberalism, and we want it back.

And yet what? More Republicans AND a far larger percentage of them supported it.

And if Dems are supposed to oppose that shit, why did two thirds of them vote in favor of it? Why did Obama revive it twice? Why was Rand Paul the main guy holding out to get that fucker to die? That's as recent as 2015. What the hell am I supposed to think about that?

The people opposing it are on the Dems side.

Don't forget my RINO Homeboy Ron Paul.

There should be more.

The whole fucking place should have been filled with "FUCK NO".

You talked above about the CHANCE for the thing you want, well the CHANCE here lies with Democrats.

Yet, as history shows, that is not true. Obama spoke out against it, yet kept it in action twice. But I'm totally supposed to trust the Democrats to go after it next time, despite re-electing Obama after he did it the first time.

So again I have you at a crossroad of hypocrisy.

No, I'm at the crossroad of "Pissed" and "More Pissed", especially since I bought into the bullshit that the Democrats were actually the party of Freedom and Liberty and Liberalism.

Sounds to me like it is you who is the hypocrite.

See above.

If you believed in the things you claim, aside from your deep love of guns, you would bare minimum never support Republicans.

Alright, I'll bite. What do you think I believe in?

Seriously, let me be clear, that last paragraph of yours? REPUBLICANS ARE GUILTY OF ALL OF THAT! YOU DONT CARE ABOUT ANY OF THAT!

Let me be clear. The Democrats sold me a complete and utter lie. They continue to stall or pull 180s on their positions, while actively promising to take away my rights. Republicans just as guilty? Alright. Why are Democrats acting like Republicans? Why the fuck aren't the Democrats the obvious good guy option? Why the fuck are they promising to take my shit and my rights? Why are they caring more about beating Orange Man? Why the fuck am I supposed to vote for these hypocrites instead of those hypocrites the next time I vote? If I vote Libertarian, you're going to keep shrieking I'm a Republican anyway, so I guess the only way for that not to happen would be to vote Democrat, huh? Well sorry hon, that's not happening. Continue pushing me further and further away from actually having a conversation that isn't REPUBLICAN BIGOT GUN FUCKER. Continue to not acknowledge my positions. I'll just keep voting as I see fit for the foreseeable future, which does not include Democrat until they pull their heads out of their asses and slap something nice on the fucking table.

Leg End:
Again, are we talking about major shootings, or anything falling under that umbrella, which includes single discharges on school property and apparently multiple homicide cases where one of the murders took place on school property? And are we going as far as to include Everytown logic which includes Cops discharging their firearms on the same property?

If by "major" you mean "mass" shootings, then I'm not sure why we would limit it there. Anywhere you look, mass shootings are going to account for a small percentage of gun violence.

The parameters I was referring to were pretty simple: incidents of at least one person (other than the shooter) being shot on school grounds.

But I'm not sure if the parameters matter terribly: I'm not aware of any metric in which the US does not come out dismally. It's by far the worst per capita for mass shootings, as well.

So, why the conclusion that it's "about right" for the number of nutcases? If that's the case, why is almost every other country on earth doing so much better?

Leg End:

Saelune:
Its not really a compliment though.

Well, it's been the nicest thing you've said for a long time, so I'll take it.

What you actually have is a blatant liar lying. So you picked the known liar. Good job.

As opposed to... ablatant liar lying. Not much of a difference in that mindset, is it?

And Christians say they believe in Jesus, but then support unJesusly things.

We call those people Dickheads.

Libertarians do not do a good job of supporting what they say on paper they believe in.

Cept they kinda do, and Gary Johnson(for whatever amount of Libertarian he is) got the largest turnout in party history in 2016. Either way, Libertarians and Republicans are not the same thing. Go ahead and talk to a Libertarian and a Republican on Abortion. Watch those sparks fly.

You are consistent in that regard atleast.

Except I am consistent with my views. You're simply wanting me to choose your own brand of NotLibertarian. Democrats ruined the word Liberalism, and we want it back.

And yet what? More Republicans AND a far larger percentage of them supported it.

And if Dems are supposed to oppose that shit, why did two thirds of them vote in favor of it? Why did Obama revive it twice? Why was Rand Paul the main guy holding out to get that fucker to die? That's as recent as 2015. What the hell am I supposed to think about that?

The people opposing it are on the Dems side.

Don't forget my RINO Homeboy Ron Paul.

There should be more.

The whole fucking place should have been filled with "FUCK NO".

You talked above about the CHANCE for the thing you want, well the CHANCE here lies with Democrats.

Yet, as history shows, that is not true. Obama spoke out against it, yet kept it in action twice. But I'm totally supposed to trust the Democrats to go after it next time, despite re-electing Obama after he did it the first time.

So again I have you at a crossroad of hypocrisy.

No, I'm at the crossroad of "Pissed" and "More Pissed", especially since I bought into the bullshit that the Democrats were actually the party of Freedom and Liberty and Liberalism.

Sounds to me like it is you who is the hypocrite.

See above.

If you believed in the things you claim, aside from your deep love of guns, you would bare minimum never support Republicans.

Alright, I'll bite. What do you think I believe in?

Seriously, let me be clear, that last paragraph of yours? REPUBLICANS ARE GUILTY OF ALL OF THAT! YOU DONT CARE ABOUT ANY OF THAT!

Let me be clear. The Democrats sold me a complete and utter lie. They continue to stall or pull 180s on their positions, while actively promising to take away my rights. Republicans just as guilty? Alright. Why are Democrats acting like Republicans? Why the fuck aren't the Democrats the obvious good guy option? Why the fuck are they promising to take my shit and my rights? Why are they caring more about beating Orange Man? Why the fuck am I supposed to vote for these hypocrites instead of those hypocrites the next time I vote? If I vote Libertarian, you're going to keep shrieking I'm a Republican anyway, so I guess the only way for that not to happen would be to vote Democrat, huh? Well sorry hon, that's not happening. Continue pushing me further and further away from actually having a conversation that isn't REPUBLICAN BIGOT GUN FUCKER. Continue to not acknowledge my positions. I'll just keep voting as I see fit for the foreseeable future, which does not include Democrat until they pull their heads out of their asses and slap something nice on the fucking table.

Clinton would have helped people. Trump hasn't even really helped his own that much, let alone all the minorities he continues to help oppress. Trump is the epitome of 'cut the nose to spite the face'.

No, you call them Evangelicals. You call them Catholics. You call them Trump supporters. Jesus is a left-winger.

Maybe, until voting comes and they vote for the R candidate. You want to criticize Democrats for not supporting what they say they do but not criticize Libertarians for not supporting what they say they do.

Your actions are not consistent with the views you claim. Neither you nor Republicans support actual freedom, except for straight white rich 'Christian' men. Its unfair hypocritical bullshit.

Why did nearly 100% of Republicans support it? Again, you criticize Democrats because why? SOME of them supported it? Seriously, your excuses are entirely blatantly hypocritical. Everything you criticize the Democrats for, Republicans do to an even greater degree. Either mean what you say or say what you mean, cause you are not doing either.

See above.

The last time I pointed out that supporting bigoted politicians might mean the person supporting them is bigoted, I got punished for it, because on this site, despite that bigotry is against the rules, it is rarely punished, but pointing out that supporting bigotry is bigoted is apparently not ok.

If you believed this, you wouldnt vote for Republicans. But you do. People wonder why I am so reluctant to 'give the other side a chance' and its because the other side cant figure out how to not be hypocrites about their views. If you want to continue to vote against your interests, thats fine, its that you're voting against everyone else's that pisses me off. But you would understand that if you were as liberal as you claim. But you arent.

Also Im not pushing anyone away. You're responsible for your own actions, as is every one else over the age of 18. If you vote for Trump or others like him, it is because YOU wanted to. No one forced you, you make your own choices. And you have to live with the consequences.

Saelune:

If you believed this, you wouldnt vote for Republicans. But you do. People wonder why I am so reluctant to 'give the other side a chance' and its because the other side cant figure out how to not be hypocrites about their views. If you want to continue to vote against your interests, thats fine, its that you're voting against everyone else's that pisses me off. But you would understand that if you were as liberal as you claim. But you arent.

You do realize that regardless of whether he votes democrat or republican he will in some way be a hypocrite right? Almost no one falls perfectly in either one party or the other.

Take me for example:

I'm pro choice.
I'm pro environment.
I'm anti big business.

I'm also pro gun.
I'm pro small government.
I'm for lower taxes.
I'm against illegal immigration (but think that our immigration laws are ridiculous and need to be updated).

Regardless of whether I vote democrat or republican I will be betraying half the things I care about, and apparently according to you if I vote 3rd party (which I did) I'm a Trump supporter because I voted against Hilary (even though I simultaneously voted against Trump).

Saelune:

No, you call them Evangelicals. You call them Catholics.

No, we call them dicks that probably haven't read the book cover to cover, or understand what Jesus and his arrival meant.

You call them Trump supporters.

Do you even know how many Trump supporters actively shit on Christianity?

Jesus is a left-winger.

...Not your Left-Wing, but he's rather on the socially Liberal side. Followers would probably fall under Anarcho-Christians or such.

Maybe, until voting comes and they vote for the R candidate.

I don't think it'd matter to you what they vote for, if it falls under the not-Uber Left area of the spectrum.

Your actions are not consistent with the views you claim. Neither you nor Republicans support actual freedom, except for straight white rich 'Christian' men. Its unfair hypocritical bullshit.

If you're going to respond to any of this, respond to this bit. How in the hell do I, someone who is actively supporting minorities arming themselves to secure their rights and freedoms, only support freedom for rich white christian males? I'm beginning to think you have something against Whites and Men.

Why did nearly 100% of Republicans support it? Again, you criticize Democrats because why? SOME of them supported it?

In what system of math is two-thirds "some"? If it was 1/3, you may have had something, but 2/3 is a large majority.

Seriously, your excuses are entirely blatantly hypocritical. Everything you criticize the Democrats for, Republicans do to an even greater degree.

Say one thing and do the other, when the Republicans haven't deviated from supporting stuff like the Patriot Act, while the Dems have stated they are against it, yet have done nothing to nuke it from orbit? Which one is being hypocritical? I expected such an Act from Republicans, but I absolutely expected Dems to go against it, yet they never did, and they kept it alive. That is one of my many problems with the Democratic Party.

Either mean what you say or say what you mean, cause you are not doing either.

I want the Patriot Act gone.

The last time I pointed out that supporting bigoted politicians might mean the person supporting them is bigoted, I got punished for it, because on this site, despite that bigotry is against the rules, it is rarely punished, but pointing out that supporting bigotry is bigoted is apparently not ok.

Take it up with the owners.

If you believed this, you wouldnt vote for Republicans. But you do. People wonder why I am so reluctant to 'give the other side a chance' and its because the other side cant figure out how to not be hypocrites about their views. If you want to continue to vote against your interests,

What exactly are my interests?

thats fine, its that you're voting against everyone else's that pisses me off.

You say this as you vote against mine.

But you would understand that if you were as liberal as you claim. But you arent.

Gee, it'd be swell if we could all agree that infringing upon the rights of others is a bad thing, no matter how much shit the talking heads promise.

Also Im not pushing anyone away.

You're certainly not giving me a favorable view of the Democratic Party.

You're responsible for your own actions, as is every one else over the age of 18. If you vote for Trump or others like him, it is because YOU wanted to. No one forced you, you make your own choices. And you have to live with the consequences.

Or you have to live with them as well, and that's why you're angry. Please remember that the next time you vote. The problem is, you don't care about what I have to live with at all, do you? Tell me truthfully.

Dirty Hipsters:

Regardless of whether I vote democrat or republican I will be betraying half the things I care about, and apparently according to you if I vote 3rd party (which I did) I'm a Trump supporter because I voted against Hilary (even though I simultaneously voted against Trump).

If I may ask, who did you vote for?

Dirty Hipsters:

Saelune:

If you believed this, you wouldnt vote for Republicans. But you do. People wonder why I am so reluctant to 'give the other side a chance' and its because the other side cant figure out how to not be hypocrites about their views. If you want to continue to vote against your interests, thats fine, its that you're voting against everyone else's that pisses me off. But you would understand that if you were as liberal as you claim. But you arent.

You do realize that regardless of whether he votes democrat or republican he will in some way be a hypocrite right? Almost no one falls perfectly in either one party or the other.

Take me for example:

I'm pro choice.
I'm pro environment.
I'm anti big business.

I'm also pro gun.
I'm pro small government.
I'm for lower taxes.
I'm against illegal immigration (but think that our immigration laws are ridiculous and need to be updated).

Regardless of whether I vote democrat or republican I will be betraying half the things I care about, and apparently according to you if I vote 3rd party (which I did) I'm a Trump supporter because I voted against Hilary (even though I simultaneously voted against Trump).

He is a hypocrite because he lies about it. He is a hypocrite because he says he voted for Trump because he wants to be left alone. He is a hypocrite because he says he voted against Democrats because some Democrats did things that almost all Republicans do.

And yes, when you vote for someone in a two party system and neither fits you 100% you have to betray some of your ideals. You have to decide what is more important to you. Leg End clearly thinks guns and walls are more important than healthcare and LGBT rights.

No, the US system of voting is far from perfect. Unfortunately, we must compromise and do what we can within it to try to get the better outcome we can. But pretending that's not true is not helping anyone.

Voting FOR Trump directly is obviously more directly supporting Trump. Voting third party is a grey area. My problem with YOU is that you keep shitting on the me and the left though.

And no one is actually FOR illegal immigration by the way. I just think immigration should be easy and should acknowledge that most immigrants are just people wanting a better life.

Leg End:

Saelune:

No, you call them Evangelicals. You call them Catholics.

No, we call them dicks that probably haven't read the book cover to cover, or understand what Jesus and his arrival meant.

You call them Trump supporters.

Do you even know how many Trump supporters actively shit on Christianity?

Jesus is a left-winger.

...Not your Left-Wing, but he's rather on the socially Liberal side. Followers would probably fall under Anarcho-Christians or such.

Maybe, until voting comes and they vote for the R candidate.

I don't think it'd matter to you what they vote for, if it falls under the not-Uber Left area of the spectrum.

Your actions are not consistent with the views you claim. Neither you nor Republicans support actual freedom, except for straight white rich 'Christian' men. Its unfair hypocritical bullshit.

If you're going to respond to any of this, respond to this bit. How in the hell do I, someone who is actively supporting minorities arming themselves to secure their rights and freedoms, only support freedom for rich white christian males? I'm beginning to think you have something against Whites and Men.

Why did nearly 100% of Republicans support it? Again, you criticize Democrats because why? SOME of them supported it?

In what system of math is two-thirds "some"? If it was 1/3, you may have had something, but 2/3 is a large majority.

Seriously, your excuses are entirely blatantly hypocritical. Everything you criticize the Democrats for, Republicans do to an even greater degree.

Say one thing and do the other, when the Republicans haven't deviated from supporting stuff like the Patriot Act, while the Dems have stated they are against it, yet have done nothing to nuke it from orbit? Which one is being hypocritical? I expected such an Act from Republicans, but I absolutely expected Dems to go against it, yet they never did, and they kept it alive. That is one of my many problems with the Democratic Party.

Either mean what you say or say what you mean, cause you are not doing either.

I want the Patriot Act gone.

The last time I pointed out that supporting bigoted politicians might mean the person supporting them is bigoted, I got punished for it, because on this site, despite that bigotry is against the rules, it is rarely punished, but pointing out that supporting bigotry is bigoted is apparently not ok.

Take it up with the owners.

If you believed this, you wouldnt vote for Republicans. But you do. People wonder why I am so reluctant to 'give the other side a chance' and its because the other side cant figure out how to not be hypocrites about their views. If you want to continue to vote against your interests,

What exactly are my interests?

thats fine, its that you're voting against everyone else's that pisses me off.

You say this as you vote against mine.

But you would understand that if you were as liberal as you claim. But you arent.

Gee, it'd be swell if we could all agree that infringing upon the rights of others is a bad thing, no matter how much shit the talking heads promise.

Also Im not pushing anyone away.

You're certainly not giving me a favorable view of the Democratic Party.

You're responsible for your own actions, as is every one else over the age of 18. If you vote for Trump or others like him, it is because YOU wanted to. No one forced you, you make your own choices. And you have to live with the consequences.

Or you have to live with them as well, and that's why you're angry. Please remember that the next time you vote. The problem is, you don't care about what I have to live with at all, do you? Tell me truthfully.

You're calling a lot of Christian dicks then.

All of them by committing sin after sin, such as abusing LGBT people and worshipping false idols and being uncharitable.

He helped the poor and sick and down-trodden. Republicans hate when those kinds of people get helped though.

I mean, the Right has terrible views on everything, so ofcourse I dont like when people support bigotry and oppression.

You support gun violence and race wars. As for Whites and Men, yes I hate the racist patriarchy of the US. Thats never been a secret. But plenty of Whites, Men, and White Men who are also against it.

Lets do some math here. Which number is bigger? 32.4% or 1.6%? Cause thats the % of Democrats and Republicans respectively that opposed it. You want to keep pretending that only 1.6% of Republicans voted against it. This is the hypocrisy I am talking about. If you oppose the Patriot Act, then why side with the one that is 98% in favor of it over the side that is 67%?

Not enough to vote against it, clearly.

I have. They tend to not respond.

Guns and walls instead of Healthcare and LGBT rights.

I voted for you to have healthcare. You voted to take mine away.

You voted for a guy who explicitly expressed the restricting of other people's rights.

Thats because you arent a good judge of people. You voted for Trump, supposedly because despite all the bigoted and oppressive things he has said and done, you still think he is somehow the 'leave people alone' guy. Thats just not true.

I am angry because you voted to take away everyone's healthcare. I care about people's problems, THATS WHY I VOTED AGAINST TRUMP! Thats why I am a socialist.

Saelune:
He is a hypocrite because he says he voted against Democrats because some Democrats did things that almost all Republicans do.

66% and two terms in the oval office protecting it isn't "some."

And yes, when you vote for someone in a two party system and neither fits you 100% you have to betray some of your ideals. You have to decide what is more important to you. Leg End clearly thinks guns and walls are more important than healthcare and LGBT rights.

If you choose to give up your rights to leave yourself open to be victimized, that's your right to do so. I choose differently.

Saelune:
You're calling a lot of Christian dicks then.

...I don't see your point.

All of them by committing sin after sin, such as abusing LGBT people and worshipping false idols and being uncharitable.

Again, what's your point here? They're non-religious, so they don't care what a holy book says.

He helped the poor and sick and down-trodden.

That's just the start, but yeah.

Republicans hate when those kinds of people get helped though.

Please, keep insulting people. That's totally going to get people to listen to what you have to say.

You support gun violence

If by that you mean "Support use of firearms as the final resort to protect the rights of every man, woman, and child", then yes. I love gun violence. More guns.

and race wars.

Still haven't gotten an answer where you get this idea. Don't think you have one, really.

As for Whites and Men, yes I hate the racist patriarchy of the US. Thats never been a secret. But plenty of Whites, Men, and White Men who are also against it.

So care to explain how I only want freedom for white, rich, christian men?

Lets do some math here. Which number is bigger? 32.4% or 1.6%? Cause thats the % of Democrats and Republicans respectively that opposed it. You want to keep pretending that only 1.6% of Republicans voted against it.

...1.6% did vote against it. What are you actually trying to say here? Do you mean that I'm pretending that no Dems voted against it? Because you're clearly not listening to what I am saying.

This is the hypocrisy I am talking about. If you oppose the Patriot Act, then why side with the one that is 98% in favor of it over the side that is 67%?

Because the 67% is still nil and they've had two terms and nearly two decades to reverse the position, but haven't? That's still a majority of the damn party. They both suck.

Not enough to vote against it, clearly.

Two terms and nearly 20 years. They're not ever doing anything about it. They are not against it. Voting for a party that is still obviously for it is not voting against it.

I have. They tend to not respond.

Well, there's your answer.

Guns and walls instead of Healthcare and LGBT rights.

Or how about Guns, Walls, LGBT Rights, and Healthcare without Government getting involved in it? You're just ignoring me at this point.

I voted for you to have healthcare.

You voted for Healthcare I didn't want to have and for my property to be taken from me, which would have left me unarmed against very real people that want me dead. Thanks for that.

You voted to take mine away.

Ask for help from me, and you'll get it. Put a gun to my head for it, and you're getting nothing.

you still think he is somehow the 'leave people alone' guy.

Assumptions.

I am angry because you voted to take away everyone's healthcare.

I voted for you to ask me for money, not take it by force.

I care about people's problems,

So do I.

THATS WHY I VOTED AGAINST TRUMP! Thats why I am a socialist.

And all of this is why I'm a Voluntaryist.

tstorm823:

You're not a dumb person. You don't really think Republican Party is courting white supremacists. It's amazing that they make dog-whistles that apparently only the cats can hear, but it's not a very useful tool.

There have long been concerns over the nature of the Republican Party's "southern strategy". We can add to that immigration rhetoric which has tended to the ever more inflammatory. Or we consider people like Steve King, only very belatedly criticised by his own party recently despite a long and iffy history. Some like Ron Paul, of course, had a history of accepting money and support from white nationalists. Recently, it seems to me the Republican reliance on a certain demographic area has led to a degree of white identity politics and at minimum severe weakness in the face of more extreme forms of it.

It ends of course with a Republican president describing white nationalist protestors as "fine people" to little harm to his support amongst Republican voters. And yes, he was rebuked for that by Republican legislators... mildly and to little apparent result. Trump brought the growing nexus of far right movements and web media right into the White House.

So if you want to say the Republican Party is openly courting white nationalists, then no. But if you mean being quiet about them, failing to confront them and thus facilitating the normalisation of their attitudes and rhetoric, then yes. And it does so because voters for whom America's identity as a white nation is a big deal are a big chunk of voters they need to keep satisfied to win elections.

Leg End:

Saelune:
He is a hypocrite because he says he voted against Democrats because some Democrats did things that almost all Republicans do.

66% and two terms in the oval office protecting it isn't "some."

And yes, when you vote for someone in a two party system and neither fits you 100% you have to betray some of your ideals. You have to decide what is more important to you. Leg End clearly thinks guns and walls are more important than healthcare and LGBT rights.

If you choose to give up your rights to leave yourself open to be victimized, that's your right to do so. I choose differently.

Saelune:
You're calling a lot of Christian dicks then.

...I don't see your point.

All of them by committing sin after sin, such as abusing LGBT people and worshipping false idols and being uncharitable.

Again, what's your point here? They're non-religious, so they don't care what a holy book says.

He helped the poor and sick and down-trodden.

That's just the start, but yeah.

Republicans hate when those kinds of people get helped though.

Please, keep insulting people. That's totally going to get people to listen to what you have to say.

You support gun violence

If by that you mean "Support use of firearms as the final resort to protect the rights of every man, woman, and child", then yes. I love gun violence. More guns.

and race wars.

Still haven't gotten an answer where you get this idea. Don't think you have one, really.

As for Whites and Men, yes I hate the racist patriarchy of the US. Thats never been a secret. But plenty of Whites, Men, and White Men who are also against it.

So care to explain how I only want freedom for white, rich, christian men?

Lets do some math here. Which number is bigger? 32.4% or 1.6%? Cause thats the % of Democrats and Republicans respectively that opposed it. You want to keep pretending that only 1.6% of Republicans voted against it.

...1.6% did vote against it. What are you actually trying to say here? Do you mean that I'm pretending that no Dems voted against it? Because you're clearly not listening to what I am saying.

This is the hypocrisy I am talking about. If you oppose the Patriot Act, then why side with the one that is 98% in favor of it over the side that is 67%?

Because the 67% is still nil and they've had two terms and nearly two decades to reverse the position, but haven't? That's still a majority of the damn party. They both suck.

Not enough to vote against it, clearly.

Two terms and nearly 20 years. They're not ever doing anything about it. They are not against it. Voting for a party that is still obviously for it is not voting against it.

I have. They tend to not respond.

Well, there's your answer.

Guns and walls instead of Healthcare and LGBT rights.

Or how about Guns, Walls, LGBT Rights, and Healthcare without Government getting involved in it? You're just ignoring me at this point.

I voted for you to have healthcare.

You voted for Healthcare I didn't want to have and for my property to be taken from me, which would have left me unarmed against very real people that want me dead. Thanks for that.

You voted to take mine away.

Ask for help from me, and you'll get it. Put a gun to my head for it, and you're getting nothing.

you still think he is somehow the 'leave people alone' guy.

Assumptions.

I am angry because you voted to take away everyone's healthcare.

I voted for you to ask me for money, not take it by force.

I care about people's problems,

So do I.

THATS WHY I VOTED AGAINST TRUMP! Thats why I am a socialist.

And all of this is why I'm a Voluntaryist.

98% and creating the policy. Again, if you really opposed it, you would not support Republicans, but you do. But now we're just going in circles. You're a Republican who wants to pretend you're third party. Atleast if you did vote third party, you would have a better claim to your 'not a Republican' stance. But you voted for Trump, you have admitted as such.

No, you chose to give up more rights than me, you just want to keep rights that oppress the ones of others.

I know you don't. You don't see most of my points, and that's your failing, not mine.

The Religious Right voted for Trump and claim he is a good Christian. He is not Christian. Evangelicals are very real and very powerful and very bad. You cant just pretend they don't exist.

Says the Trump supporter. If pointing out facts is insulting, well, facts dont care about feelings I believe is the phrase. Ironically used more by fact-hating snowflakes to criticise the actual fact supporting people.

Glad you're starting to admit it, sort of.

Donald Trump is a White Supremacist. You voted for Donald Trump.

You vote for a party that only cares about White so-called Christian Men. You aint voting for who makes the best pie either.

Now you are blatantly giving Republicans an excuse you wont give Democrats. You defend Republicans cause only 1% voted against while condemning the 33% of Democrats who voted against it. That is hypocritical of you.

If they both suck, why did you vote for Trump?

Then why did you vote for Trump? You keep proving my point time after time. You criticize Democrats for what Republicans do even more of. Because you dont actually want what you say you do, you just want to bash on the left, because you are a Right-Winger.

Its a shit answer.

As I said to Dirty Hipster, you have to decide what views are more important. You chose guns and walls over healthcare and LGBT rights. You dont care about trans soldiers clearly. But they arent you, so not your problem, right?

Thats selfish. You want people to care about you without you having to care about them. That is hypocritical and selfish.

You wouldnt offer it, clearly.

You're the one making assumptions.

And hows paying for Trump's golfing working out for you?

You clearly dont.

And yet you support the anti-choice side.

I will keep saying it. If you cared about what you claim to care about, choice, freedom, personal liberty, you would never have voted Trump.

Leg End:
You voted for Healthcare I didn't want to have and for my property to be taken from me, which would have left me unarmed against very real people that want me dead. Thanks for that.

Who voted to have your property taken away from you leaving you unarmed? I own a Glock 40 and a shotgun and I have no worries about anyone taking them away from me when I vote for democrats because I live in reality here. Unless you have a violent background or think you only have to have wild hog hunting guns you shouldn't be worried about losing your gun. If you do own a gun that should only be used for wild hog hunting and you don't hunt wild hogs, there is nothing stopping you from selling it and getting one that is more suitable for it's purpose. My life is at risk as well and I am not concerned in the least that voting for democrats will take my firearms. The man who stabbed my neighbor and tried to kill me twice is already out of prison again. I am more worried about those who have already been shown to be violent being able to freely access them as that puts me in harms way far more than restricting them from having them. People who think they will lose their right to defend themselves have been drinking too much of the wrong koolaid. It isn't happening and is silly to think it will anytime soon. It will keep everyone safer if we pass better legislation rather than leave it to be the current mess it is. We need to require background checks for gunshows, I was never even carded when I bought my Glock 40, instead the dealer flirted with me instead of asking for my ID. That should not be happening. We need to require background checks for any way that firearms are transferred, including garage sales, gifts and inheritance. My Uncle tried to give my cousin a gun after he was released from prison for blowing up someones's house and there is no way that should be happening either. We need laws to take away firearms from people with a history of violence before it gets to the point of them killing someone. There are so many deaths that could have been prevented if they would do just that. Wanting more firearm restrictions =\= going to take away everyone's guns.

Fact:
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/gun-violence-prevention/
Fiction: Hillary Clinton wants to abolish the 2nd amendment.

Saelune:

Donald Trump is a White Supremacist. You voted for Donald Trump.

...Anyone got evidence for this? Any at all?

Now you are blatantly giving Republicans an excuse you wont give Democrats. You defend Republicans cause only 1% voted against while condemning the 33% of Democrats who voted against it. That is hypocritical of you.

There is a difference between defending Republicans and attacking Democrats. I'm attacking the Democrats.

If they both suck, why did you vote for Trump?

Better of the two options. Simple.

Then why did you vote for Trump? You keep proving my point time after time. You criticize Democrats for what Republicans do even more of. Because you dont actually want what you say you do, you just want to bash on the left, because you are a Right-Winger.

Because I'm voting for whatever path eventually gets me to my ends.

As I said to Dirty Hipster, you have to decide what views are more important. You chose guns and walls over healthcare and LGBT rights. You dont care about trans soldiers clearly. But they arent you, so not your problem, right?

You chose socialized medicine over minorities getting lynched. Is it that black and white? Not at all. I can assume good faith on your part. Can you assume that of me?

Thats selfish. You want people to care about you without you having to care about them. That is hypocritical and selfish.

I'd like for all of us to care about each other and not be hostile for opinions.

You wouldnt offer it, clearly.

Dead wrong. I offer what little I have to people in need.

And hows paying for Trump's golfing working out for you?

What, you think I enjoy that?

And yet you support the anti-choice side.

You support the disarmament of minorities side. Again, is it that simple, or is there a lot more nuance to these things that you aren't considering?

I will keep saying it. If you cared about what you claim to care about, choice, freedom, personal liberty, you would never have voted Trump.

I'm voting for whatever gets me what I want, even if it takes a lifetime of doing so to get there. I should probably move to a different state so my vote actually matters though.

Lil devils x:
Who voted to have your property taken away from you leaving you unarmed? I own a Glock 40 and a shotgun and I have no worries about anyone taking them away from me when I vote for democrats because I live in reality here.

We both live in this same one.

My Uncle tried to give my cousin a gun after he was released from prison for blowing up someones's house and there is no way that should be happening either.

Well, there isn't an omnipotent Gun Transfer spirit that can detect when that kind of thing is going down. No amount of law is going to outright stop someone blatantly breaking it. If he tried to legally transfer it, then that's probably going to be picked up. If he just hands it to him, then your Uncle broke the law and didn't care. I can assume that something stopped the whole thing, considering "tried to"? That, or you reported it yourself.

Leg End:

Lil devils x:
Who voted to have your property taken away from you leaving you unarmed? I own a Glock 40 and a shotgun and I have no worries about anyone taking them away from me when I vote for democrats because I live in reality here.

We both live in this same one.

My Uncle tried to give my cousin a gun after he was released from prison for blowing up someones's house and there is no way that should be happening either.

Well, there isn't an omnipotent Gun Transfer spirit that can detect when that kind of thing is going down. No amount of law is going to outright stop someone blatantly breaking it. If he tried to legally transfer it, then that's probably going to be picked up. If he just hands it to him, then your Uncle broke the law and didn't care. I can assume that something stopped the whole thing, considering "tried to"? That, or you reported it yourself.

I just linked you Hillary Clinton's official stance on firearm regulation. Banning AR15's isn't taking away one's right to defend themselves, like I stated above, unless you are going hog hunting, no one needs an AR15. They can sell it and get something far more reasonable. No one is suggesting they come in and take my shotgun and glock 40, and it should not be interpreted as such.

There is No laws for giving another person a gun period, you do not need a background check to give someone a gun. You do not need to check whether they are a felon or not, it isn't illegal for you to do so. It isn't even illegal for a gunshow to sell a felon a gun because they do not require background checks. You can give them to whoever you like because we don't even have registration laws. We need to start with registration requirements and then we can enforce transfer requirements. No law is going to stop someone from breaking it, however, if they get pulled over with a gun that is not registered to them it will show up in the system and then it can be caught. Right now people are pulled over with firearms all the time and just sent on their way and the police do not even have any way of knowing if that gun was used in a crime. Registration requirements can change that. My uncle didn't break the law. Not only is it perfectly legal to give a gun to someone it is also legal for convicted felons to own a gun in Texas after 5 years so local law enforcement will not enforce federal law, only the feds do that and the feds only get involved AFTER something serious happens again, so no one does anything about it until it is too late:

Texas Penal Code Sec 46.04 allows, in some cases, for a felon to own a firearm where they reside, but only after five years from the time of their conviction.

https://helpforfelons.org/can-a-felon-own-a-gun-in-texas/

My father stopped his brother from giving my cousin one, after my uncle had already bought it of course so family intervention, but what would have happened if my Dad didn't say anything or hadn't known about it? These things happen all the time. We need to start with registration, then enforcement of transfer laws, they will be able to get many of the guns off the street just by being able to check to make sure the guns they see when they pull people over are being carried by their registered owners. That is a far better system than the current system of just letting white people with guns go without hassle and shoot black people with guns because they see them as a threat. They will be able to enforce gift and transfer laws by being able to confiscate weapons that are not being carried by their registered owners. The guns can be collected from the police department by the registered owners and legally transfer registration then if they had not already. This closes major loopholes allowing a massive amount of guns on the streets. Of course that doesn't solve everything, but it is a start.

After they do that they can focus on removing firearms from people with violent histories. Right now due to firearms not even being registered there is no way to really do that either yet.

Lil devils x:

I just linked you Hillary Clinton's official stance on firearm regulation. Banning AR15's isn't taking away one's right to defend themselves, like I stated above, unless you are going hog hunting, no one needs an AR15. They can sell it and get something far more reasonable. No one is suggesting they come in and take my shotgun and glock 40, and it should not be interpreted as such.

Thank you, that's all I needed to hear.

After they do that they can focus on removing firearms from people with violent histories. Right now due to firearms not even being registered there is no way to really do that either yet.

This really doesn't help fight against the idea that registration leads to confiscation.

Leg End:

Dirty Hipsters:

Regardless of whether I vote democrat or republican I will be betraying half the things I care about, and apparently according to you if I vote 3rd party (which I did) I'm a Trump supporter because I voted against Hilary (even though I simultaneously voted against Trump).

If I may ask, who did you vote for?

Gary Johnson.

I knew that he had no chance of winning, and there are some platforms of his that I have issues with. I don't think that he would do enough to protect the environment and counteract global warming, and he's against government spending on infrastructure if that infrastructure doesn't pay for itself which I think is a moronic stance, as is his idea of completely abolishing income and corporate taxes. On the whole though, I agree with his policies more than I did with either Hilary or Trump.

There's no perfect candidate, and Gary Johnson is far from perfect, but he was closer to my personal viewpoints on domestic policies than any of the other candidates, and considering I didn't think he had an chance in hell of actually abolishing corporate taxes I wasn't too worried about that platform.

Saelune:

And no one is actually FOR illegal immigration by the way. I just think immigration should be easy and should acknowledge that most immigrants are just people wanting a better life.

Then call it what it is. I'm so sick of the left talking about all immigrants in discussions of illegal immigration and then pretending that anyone who is against illegal immigration is anti-immigrant.

I'm an immigrant, most of my family are immigrants, as are many of my friends. We all came to the US legally, and it was a huge pain in the ass. Giving protections to people who break the law and come here illegally spits in the face of all the people who went through the legal channels to come here, and even more so for people who attempted to come here legally and were denied. You can't reward people for breaking the law.

The US has the right to choose who it allows to enter. I'm pro all of the immigrants who take the time to go through the process legally, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for illegal immigrants who get deported.

Dirty Hipsters:

Gary Johnson.

I knew that he had no chance of winning, and there are some platforms of his that I have issues with. I don't think that he would do enough to protect the environment and counteract global warming, and he's against government spending on infrastructure if that infrastructure doesn't pay for itself which I think is a moronic stance, as is his idea of completely abolishing income and corporate taxes. On the whole though, I agree with his policies more than I did with either Hilary or Trump.

Pretty much my way on it. Figured he had no chance of winning despite being the best choice, so I voted for Trump in a bid to put my hands on the steering wheel to avoid the cliff. Then again, California, so my vote doesn't matter for jack here.

There's no perfect candidate, and Gary Johnson is far from perfect, but he was closer to my personal viewpoints on domestic policies than any of the other candidates, and considering I didn't think he had an chance in hell of actually abolishing corporate taxes I wasn't too worried about that platform.

If there was any chance of it happening, I'd have gone in behind Ron Paul. Unlike Gary or Donald, I can't immediately think of things I'm majorly against in his stances. Thanks for answering!

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