[POLITICS] If Trump is Innocent, he should prove it

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tstorm823:

Saelune:
Both sides want to limit rights and freedoms. Its just about admitting that, and realizing that rights and freedoms aren't inherently good.

Now I just need to say that justice and equality are also not inherently good to go with this.

Its a lot easier when you completely take it out of the context of the rest of the post, sure.

Saelune:

Gethsemani:

ObsidianJones:

... other than the fact that one side normally tries to limit the rights of fellow citizens, and that side considers it a limitation of Their Own Rights when the government and the rest of the population tells them no and to let people live.

We should probably be careful with accusations like this, considering that one of the trending politics topics on this very forum right now has a lot of people from the Other Side vocally advocating limiting the rights of people with certain beliefs, at best, and downright killing said people at worst. Combined with how several of the people advocating this curtailing of rights also likes to lump everyone on One Side together as sharing those beliefs, we've got the potential for a good example of pot calling kettle black.

That's not to say that the two are fully equivalent, of course, but the idea of limiting the rights and freedoms of people you disagree with is not a partisan issue, but rather a recurring trend in bipartisan politics, extremist ideologies and dysfunctional democratic systems.

Both sides want to limit rights and freedoms. Its just about admitting that, and realizing that rights and freedoms aren't inherently good. The right wants to limit the rights and freedoms of immigrants, of non-Christians, of LGBT people, of pregnant women, of voters. The left wants to limit the rights and freedoms of white supremacists, of guns nuts, of religious extremists, of corporations.

Only complete anarchists (as in, abolish the entire concept of government, not anarcho-capitalists which are actually just corporate fascists and thus oxy-morons) are in favor of total freedom, but even they are against the rights and freedoms of those who want to exert control over others.

Saelune:
Show me the proof. Show me Republicans standing up to Republicans and I will believe you, and not just because they are running for president.

You show me Graham shitting on Trump, and I will show Graham kissing his ass the next year. Same with Cruz. Hell, Trump is the only Republican standing up to other Republicans, but that's only when he feels even slightly slighted, which is easily and often, and then everyone is back in lockstep.

The proof is not there that Republicans oppose each other, not in any way that is worth a damn.

And not enough on the important issues either. If I am supposed to believe the Republican Party is not full of White Supremacists, then they need to actually do something about White Supremacists.

So you know Republicans disagree with each other and you don't care. Nothing short of full denunciation of the Republican Party regardless of circumstances is going to satisfy your conditions for "opposition".

Saelune:

Its a lot easier when you completely take it out of the context of the rest of the post, sure.

You're perfectly welcome to consider that in context as well.

"The right wants to allow wealth inequality to exist. The left wants the government to treat people unequally to change the wealth gaps. Both sides are for inequality at some point, it's just admitting that and realizing that equality isn't inherently good."

tstorm823:

Saelune:
Show me the proof. Show me Republicans standing up to Republicans and I will believe you, and not just because they are running for president.

You show me Graham shitting on Trump, and I will show Graham kissing his ass the next year. Same with Cruz. Hell, Trump is the only Republican standing up to other Republicans, but that's only when he feels even slightly slighted, which is easily and often, and then everyone is back in lockstep.

The proof is not there that Republicans oppose each other, not in any way that is worth a damn.

And not enough on the important issues either. If I am supposed to believe the Republican Party is not full of White Supremacists, then they need to actually do something about White Supremacists.

So you know Republicans disagree with each other and you don't care. Nothing short of full denunciation of the Republican Party regardless of circumstances is going to satisfy your conditions for "opposition".

Full denunciation of bigotry is what it will take.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

Its a lot easier when you completely take it out of the context of the rest of the post, sure.

You're perfectly welcome to consider that in context as well.

"The right wants to allow wealth inequality to exist. The left wants the government to treat people unequally to change the wealth gaps. Both sides are for inequality at some point, it's just admitting that and realizing that equality isn't inherently good."

To those with privilege, equality feels like oppression.

CM156:

Saelune:
I am not stupid. The people who most often disagree with me share the same right-wing ideology as each other. The Lunatic, CM156, Leg End and other users that have tried and failed against me all tend to agree on too many things.

Actually, the right wing is a pretty diverse area when it comes to ideology. The only really uniform underlying idea is that we tend to disagree with the direction society is heading.

Where do you think society is heading?

Marik2:

CM156:

Saelune:
I am not stupid. The people who most often disagree with me share the same right-wing ideology as each other. The Lunatic, CM156, Leg End and other users that have tried and failed against me all tend to agree on too many things.

Actually, the right wing is a pretty diverse area when it comes to ideology. The only really uniform underlying idea is that we tend to disagree with the direction society is heading.

Where do you think society is heading?

Guessing the shitter?

But seriously the short answer, if I may interject, would be it's heading in the opposite direction of conservative norms and values which have generally been in line with preserving a functional way of life.

Traditional values like individual liberty, personal responsibility, limited government, family values and a free market have been overshadowed by the notion that "equality" is an attainable facet, and that increased government will solve all of society's problems. The problem there is the unwillingness to acknowledge that government is still merely a group (albeit an increasingly growing one) of flawed people ultimately seeking power over others. This has led to a disenchanted, fractured populace with an increasing amount of blame aimed at others before themselves, dependence, divorce, dysfunctional youth as a result of the broken family unit, all naturally giving way to general worsening attitudes and outlooks on life.

That's not to say conservative viewpoints are perfect though either, as they are still also constructed by flawed people. The difference mostly boils down to the kinds of flaws inherent in each viewpoint. Having said that, it takes considerably more discipline to hold and ultimately live by a conservative viewpoint. There are a lot of people who claim to be conservatives who others wouldn't hesitate to label as hypocrites. What seems to be increasingly certain would be the home (or perhaps church) are becoming the only places left where a conservative view is considered legitimate and acceptable. The sad part is it doesn't have to be this way. Our society doesn't need to be so polarized, and there should be room for a more balanced middle ground. Flaws of human nature do their damndest to work against us there.

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