[POLITICS] Brexit deadline

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TheIronRuler:
That is the democratic process - you can't refuse to accept it and ask for a second vote just because you lost! It is literally undemocratic to disregard a previous vote, and make a second vote! I suppose the people that don't like the fact Britain is leaving the EU would bombard regular voters in order to convince them to vote to stay - perhaps they think they could make a better job next time? Have a re-do vote? Throw a little temper-tantrum because they didn't get it their way?

Firstly, recall that the Leave campaign was found to have broken electoral law multiple times, including drastically breaching spending limits and illegally coordinating with unofficial campaigns. To accept as binding a referendum in which electoral law was routinely flouted by one side is far from respecting the Democratic process.

Secondly, nobody is arguing that we simply ask the same question again. We know what the options are now; we didn't before. We have an enormous amount of information that was not available before.

Thirdly, the Leave campaign literally ran on the basis of the UK getting a deal. To leave without a deal directly goes against even the promises of the Leave campaign, so nobody can argue with a straight face that leaving without a deal respects the Democratic will as expressed in the referendum.

TheIronRuler:

I don't see it this way. I can compare it to elections. If after a general elections in the UK there's a group of people protesting, asking for a second round of elections because their preferred party didn't get the majority. It's akin to people protesting an elections in the US because their candidate didn't win and demanding a re-vote...

Okay. But we have an institutionalised constitutional system of regular elections; you vote in a party for up to five years. But there's no institutionalised system for referenda. And to be fair, sufficiently vigorous public opposition to a government will bring it down anyway.

Never mind that, but we don't even need a referendum to reverse the previous. Parliament is supreme; unless explicitly stated otherwise by Parliament, a referendum result is advisory upon Parliament.

It's undemocratic, literally ignoring the rules of the game they agreed to before the election - or referendum, just because they didn't get it their way.

What rules of the game we agreed? The British public didn't agree to the rules of the referendum. The rules were imposed on us by David Cameron and his coterie, and an incredibly shitty job they made of it.

If I'd had my way, I'd have instituted an official independent expert commission to look at the options and run an extensive public consulation (minimum one year, preferably nearer two), and established from the commission & consultation a clear Brexit position representing public will to go against the Remain in a head to head.

The new referendum vote would be split so that the 'remain' clause will gain the highest percentage of votes. Again - the British political class agreed to this and it passed. It had years to turn around and change it, yet it didn't. Voting socialist wouldn't have changed that. Enlightening people by scaring them about the future isn't going to change that. It's not different from delusional people in the US chanting "Not my President". Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote. A second referendum would have revealed those in favor of it to utterly disregard the democratic process and the wishes of the people. Pinning the reasoning for yet another referendum on the time it took to scare more British people with the facts (the harsh realities of a 'hard' Brexit) of what a Brexit would actually achieve doesn't change that. There was a time to decide it - and it was two years ago. Live with the consequences.

My country believed it could move into a new peaceful existence with its neighbors and retreat from the territories it seized during defensive wars against its aggressive neighbors. In the end we brought terrorist gangs to our heartlands, supplied them with money, guns and legitimacy in a vain hope they could govern themselves and watched as our citizens blew up to mists of blood in buses and restaurants. The decision was already made, there was nothing we could do to change it. We had to adapt based on it, and learn to live with the consequences. This monumentally historical decision (in my country) was made by a minority government, with great public dissent and backlash - yet it remained in place. Because we understand democracy, and that sometimes our side loses, and we have to deal with the consequences of the other side's actions. I can explain to people what had happened and how - and I don't whine about it. I understand its significance and move on.

TheIronRuler:
The new referendum vote would be split so that the 'remain' clause will gain the highest percentage of votes. Again - the British political class agreed to this and it passed. It had years to turn around and change it, yet it didn't. Voting socialist wouldn't have changed that. Enlightening people by scaring them about the future isn't going to change that. It's not different from delusional people in the US chanting "Not my President". Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote. A second referendum would have revealed those in favor of it to utterly disregard the democratic process and the wishes of the people. Pinning the reasoning for yet another referendum on the time it took to scare more British people with the facts (the harsh realities of a 'hard' Brexit) of what a Brexit would actually achieve doesn't change that. There was a time to decide it - and it was two years ago. Live with the consequences.

My country believed it could move into a new peaceful existence with its neighbors and retreat from the territories it seized during defensive wars against its aggressive neighbors. In the end we brought terrorist gangs to our heartlands, supplied them with money, guns and legitimacy in a vain hope they could govern themselves and watched as our citizens blew up to mists of blood in buses and restaurants. The decision was already made, there was nothing we could do to change it. We had to adapt based on it, and learn to live with the consequences. This monumentally historical decision (in my country) was made by a minority government, with great public dissent and backlash - yet it remained in place. Because we understand democracy, and that sometimes our side loses, and we have to deal with the consequences of the other side's actions. I can explain to people what had happened and how - and I don't whine about it. I understand its significance and move on.

This is not the same as those saying " not my president" this is a decision that will long outlive the people who voted for it, and not so easily reversed.This is a decision that not only destroys the lives of many living in the UK, but also the UK itself. Voting for a president still means they have to pass laws that will affect the people through congress, not immediately destroy the lives of millions of people, there is a huge difference here. It is not just a matter of a country changing contracts, the entire financial sector will collapse because it will move to an EU nation, because you cannot be the financial hub for the EU and not be in the EU. Millions of jobs in London will cease to exist. The people voting to leave the EU at the time had no idea it would also mean the UK would cease to exist.

Scotland will likely leave and rejoin the EU themselves. Scotland did not vote to leave the EU, they voted to remain. Forcing them to do so against their will, will also likely force them to leave the UK in order to do so.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47170711
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-chaos-means-scots-are-ready-to-leave-the-uk-1-4858417

Keeping bad decisions that the majority of the people disagree with before it is even implemented in a nation is not democracy, it is idiocy. Why would people do stupid things for the sake of doing stupid things? It makes no sense. Sure this is extremely beneficial to the new nation that becomes the new financial hub for the EU, but will be devastating to so many in the UK. This is a decision that breaks apart their nation, their people and their future and there is no point in doing it when the people do not even want it to happen in the first place.

Then of course you have the issue of WHO and WHY they actually voted to leave the EU:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/567922/distribution-of-eu-referendum-votes-by-age-and-gender-uk/

What people voted for and what they are receiving are two entirely different things. If they were actually receiving what they were told they were receiving , that would be them actually getting what they voted for. That is not happening, because the people were lied to. The people who voted to leave due to the scam they were sold are who want another referendum, not just those who opposed it in the first place. The leave campaign literally told a bunch of elderly people they would receive better healthcare if they voted to leave, which was a scam, a lie, they would have their healthcare cut, not improved is the reality and they found this out the day after the vote.

In addition,the people who decided to leave are not the one's who will be paying the consequences of this decision. Look at the ages of those who voted to remain and those who voted to leave. The elderly voted to leave, the youth voted to remain. Why are the youth being made to pay the price for their elders misjudgment? It appears the elderly fell for the scam that was sold to them and the youth are the ones who will suffer through someone else's decision long after they are gone. Hell many of the elderly are not even living or planning on living in the UK, they are spending their retirement elsewhere.

According to what we know about the aging brain, the reason why elderly are more likely to fall for scams is they are less likely to detect fraud:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/30/aging-brains-become-less-able-to-detect-fraud.html

What was sold to the people was a FRAUD. They were lied to. The leave campaign literately put lies on the sides of buses and drove them everywhere:

Many Brexiteers suggested the inflammatory figure should be funding the NHS instead, though Nigel Farage famously backtracked on that pledge on the same day the EU referendum result was announced. He claimed it was ?a mistake?.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/04/27/heres-how-spectacularly-wrong-the-brexit-bus-350million-lie-was-6600987/
https://www.indy100.com/article/jim-ratcliffe-brexit-leaving-the-uk-monaco-tax-haven-save-8783211

The biggest "fear mongering" as far as the Brexit goes is actually coming from some of who supported leave, UK Farmers and the food industry, many of which have changed their minds now that they understand what is happening:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/04/no-deal-brexit-would-be-catastrophic-uk-farmers-warns-nfu
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/brexit-retailers-grocers-warning-food-shortages-empty-shelves-perishable-goods-fresh-food-tesco-a8750991.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/what-are-brexit-contingency-plans-for-retailers-and-farmers

The stress of this is causing a rise in suicide among farmers:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/03/brexit-and-bad-weather-puts-uk-farmers-at-risk-of-suicide-say-charities

Then of course you have the scientific and medical research communities that have been devastated by this already, including many of my friends that have been affected by this there:

Two-thirds of European engineers and scientists working in the UK have considered leaving the country because of Brexit, a survey has found. Worries about job security and losing EU funding were cited as the main reasons for thinking of leaving, as well as feeling less welcome in the UK.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/more-than-half-of-eu-scientists-are-thinking-of-leaving-brexit-uk-/3009993.article
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/23/hard-brexit-cripple-uk-science-nobel-scientists-may-juncker
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06826-y
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2019-03-21/how-brexit-is-stirring-an-exodus-of-europeans-from-the-uk
When a decision will literally rip your country apart, force millions to lose their jobs or move out of the nation, as many I know already have been forced to do so to keep their research grants, this is not " fear mongering" this is the reality here of the decision being made, yes, they better be damn sure this is what they want to do before going through with it rather than just forcing everyone off the cliff because they were lied to. It would be undemocratic for them to force the majority of the people in a nation to do something they do not wish to do that will destroy so many of their lives. This is a nation breaking apart, as that is what is happening here, not a presidential election and should be treated as such. Electing a president is no where near comparable as saying " lets vote to break up the Untied States", those are entirely different things. Now that people understand that is what they will be facing here, they should be able to make a knowledgeable decision and not one based on lies of improved healthcare that doesn't exist.

TheIronRuler:
Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes.

Indeed it does. But nothing about democracy says that once a decision is made it cannot be unmade. All the time, as bread and butter politics, policies are scrapped or reversed and laws are repealed or amended. The concept of re-evaluation and reconsideration is constitutionally built into legislatures: bills are voted forward and sent back through parliamentary chambers as part of basic legislative process. They can be abandoned or voted down after being originally voted through. So why is this suddenly a problem with referenda?

Next, okay, so let's say the UK leaves the EU. Forever? Are Britons never allowed a referendum to rejoin? If they are allowed to, then when? 5 years? 10? "A generation"? What are the rules here to "respect democracy"? The answer is that there aren't any rules: just a load of spurious rationalisations people dream up to support their gut feeling.

TheIronRuler:
The new referendum vote would be split so that the 'remain' clause will gain the highest percentage of votes.

Three options with a transferable vote: 1) Remain, 2) Deal as negotiated by the government, 3) No deal. People pick a first and a second choice option. The first choice votes of everyone are counted. If no option has a majority, then the least popular option is removed and the second choice votes of those who favoured it added to the remaining two. Thus Brexiters can avoid having the Brexit vote split and a good chance of forcing a Brexit of some sort. And if Remain wins, well that's democratic choice.

My country believed it could move into a new peaceful existence with its neighbors and retreat from the territories it seized during defensive wars against its aggressive neighbors. In the end we brought terrorist gangs to our heartlands, supplied them with money, guns and legitimacy in a vain hope they could govern themselves and watched as our citizens blew up to mists of blood in buses and restaurants.

You're really not selling to me the idea of going ahead with bad policy at any cost here.

There might be something admirable about martyr-like stoicism, but frankly everyone's better off not making a bad decision in the first place when it could have been avoided. That's why, as above, normal process of governance has so much review and reconsideration.

TheIronRuler:
Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote.

Again: we have multiple proven breaches of electoral law. Is it respecting the integrity of the political system to ignore electoral fraud, and go ahead with the outcome of any referenda that were decided by such dubious means?

And, again: the Leave campaign campaigned on the basis of getting a deal. Leaving without one has never been expressed as the will of the people, and it is quite explicitly not the will of the people. It is deeply unpopular.

You cannot pursue a policy that was not voted on, and simultaneously call it the result of democratic expression. To do so would be ludicrous.

oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby's lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain's Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby's CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs' inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May's deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook "grassroots" advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson's campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK's major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May's deal.

Crosby's secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be "mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers", whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary's abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP - subsequently repaid - in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to "chuck Chequers", alongside articles criticising George Soros's involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign's financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain's Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain's Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby's CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby's CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith's ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because "some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it". He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: "I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured."

Dawson, the public face of Britain's Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: "This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for."

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby's company but said remain campaigners "are using similar tactics and spending more" without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People's Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

"I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published," said the committee's chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

"People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns," he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.

Neurotic Void Melody:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby?s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby?s CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs? inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May?s deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook ?grassroots? advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson?s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK?s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May?s deal.

Crosby?s secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be ?mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers?, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary?s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP ? subsequently repaid ? in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to ?chuck Chequers?, alongside articles criticising George Soros?s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign?s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain?s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby?s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby?s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith?s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because ?some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it?. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: ?I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.?

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: ?This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.?

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby?s company but said remain campaigners ?are using similar tactics and spending more? without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People?s Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

?I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,? said the committee?s chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

?People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,? he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.

No wonder they are so dead set against letting the public have final say. They know the public will never support this so they want to try and force them to accept against their will by faking support. Reminds me of how the FCC in the US was caught faking support for ending net Neutrality, then when even that failed due to the sheer amount of opposition they received, they faked being taken offline by a DDoS attack that never happened. I am amazed at how these people are still in their jobs and not prosecuted for this BS tbh. I hope one day they look back in disgust at the sheer level of corruption we are dealing with in these times.

https://gizmodo.com/senators-demand-fcc-answer-for-fake-comments-after-real-1826213294
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/fcc-lied-to-congress-about-made-up-ddos-attack-investigation-found/

Looks like they are taking a page out of the Republican playbook in the US.

Silvanus:

TheIronRuler:
Democracy means you as a political movement can lose the vote sometimes. Accepting a loss is as important as accepting a political victory in preserving the integrity of the political system. Moving forward as a nation is more important for the survival of the UK, instead of squabbling over an issue that was already decided the morning after the vote.

Again: we have multiple proven breaches of electoral law. Is it respecting the integrity of the political system to ignore electoral fraud, and go ahead with the outcome of any referenda that were decided by such dubious means?

And, again: the Leave campaign campaigned on the basis of getting a deal. Leaving without one has never been expressed as the will of the people, and it is quite explicitly not the will of the people. It is deeply unpopular.

You cannot pursue a policy that was not voted on, and simultaneously call it the result of democratic expression. To do so would be ludicrous.

We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.

generals3:

We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.

I think you might mean the Customs Union; that was defeated 276 to 273 (Source). EFTA without Customs Union was defeated 64 to 377 (Source).

NB: The Independent Group, which favours a second referendum, did not vote for the Customs Union plan, despite the fact that its defeat brings a no-deal exit much closer. Much anger among Labour MPs about this, apparently. If we end up with neither a Customs Union nor a second referendum, there's going to be quite a lot of blame apportioned to the Independent Group.

Silvanus:

generals3:

We could also add that the proposition which lost with smallest margin is the one arguing for the UK to join EFTA. Which, if we assume the parliament represents the people, means that would be the least undemocratic choice. Ironically it's the brexit proposition which is the closest to actually remaining.

I think you might mean the Customs Union; that was defeated 276 to 273 (Source). EFTA without Customs Union was defeated 64 to 377 (Source).

NB: The Independent Group, which favours a second referendum, did not vote for the Customs Union plan, despite the fact that its defeat brings a no-deal exit much closer. Much anger among Labour MPs about this, apparently. If we end up with neither a Customs Union nor a second referendum, there's going to be quite a lot of blame apportioned to the Independent Group.

My Apologies, it was indeed the customs union, the second closest to a remain. And that's really a bad move of the independent group, but that's politics i guess... They probably hope the government would de facto go for a second referendum or remaining if no deal gets agreed upon. Which is starting to look like a very dangerous gamble like holding the first referandum..

Neurotic Void Melody:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled

A series of hugely influential Facebook advertising campaigns that appear to be separate grassroots movements for a no-deal Brexit are secretly overseen by employees of Sir Lynton Crosby?s lobbying company and a former adviser to Boris Johnson, documents seen by the Guardian reveal.

The mysterious groups, which have names such as Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future, appear to be run independently by members of the public and give no hint that they are connected. But in reality they share an administrator who works for Crosby?s CTF Partners and have spent as much as 1m GBP promoting sophisticated targeted adverts aimed at heaping pressure on individual MPs to vote for a hard Brexit.

Repeated questions have been raised about who is backing at least a dozen high-spending groups that have flooded MPs? inboxes with calls to reject Theresa May?s deal, but until now they were thought to be independent entities.

But according to the documents, almost all the major pro-Brexit Facebook ?grassroots? advertising campaigns in the UK share the same page admins or advertisers. These individuals include employees of CTF Partners and the political director of Boris Johnson?s campaigns to be mayor of London, who has worked closely with Crosby in the past.

Their collective Facebook expenditure swamps the amount spent in the last six months by all the UK?s major political parties and the UK government combined. They have paid for thousands of different targeted Facebook ads encouraging members of the public to write to their local MPs and call for the toughest possible exit from the EU, creating the impression of organic public opposition to Theresa May?s deal.

Crosby?s secretive lobbying company CTF Partners has come under increasing scrutiny in recent months. Leaked documents have revealed how it boasts of its ability to run fake online grassroots campaigns that encourage users to join an online community and then be ?mobilised to communicate directly with key decision-makers?, whether to delegitimise the Qatari government or convince people that burning coal is good.

The Australian political strategist has also been repeatedly linked to a potential Conservative leadership campaign by Johnson, having been lined up to run the former foreign secretary?s abortive 2016 bid for the same position. CTF Partners gave Johnson an interest-free loan of 23,000 GBP ? subsequently repaid ? in January, while the company already employs arch-Brexiter former Tory MP Stewart Jackson in an advisory role and paid for ex-Brexit secretary David Davis to go on trips.

Mainstream Network attracted attention last year when it was exposed for spending at least 250,000 GBP to reach more than 10 million voters with adverts urging voters to email their local MP and urging them to ?chuck Chequers?, alongside articles criticising George Soros?s involvement in the remain campaign. After it attracted attention it was abruptly shut down.

Although Facebook has substantially increased the level of transparency around political advertising in recent months, all that is required to run such a campaign is a publicly-named individual who is registered to a UK postal address or contact details for a public organisation. There is no true disclosure around a campaign?s financial backers and no UK law requiring financial transparency outside an election period.

After the closure of the Mainstream Network site, similar adverts began appearing on a Facebook page named Britain?s Future, whose public frontman is a former Two Pints Of Lager And A Packet Of Crisps scriptwriter named Tim Dawson who later became a Conservative council candidate.

The group hit the headlines last month when it was revealed it was the biggest single UK political advertiser on Facebook, spending 422,000 GPB on adverts campaigning for a hard Brexit despite never declaring its financial backers.

According to the documents seen by the Guardian, individuals with the ability to place adverts on both the Mainstream Network and Britain?s Future page include Reuben Solomon, whom multiple sources identified as an employee of Crosby?s CTF Partners.

He did not respond to a request for comment but a relative, who previously lived with him at an address in north London, confirmed to the Guardian that Solomon worked for Crosby.

According to the documents, other individuals with oversight of the Mainstream Network Facebook page include Charles Carroll and Alex Crowley.

Carroll, who deleted his LinkedIn profile after the Guardian began to seek comment for this article, also works for Crosby?s CTF Partners, according to a cached version of the page.

Crowley was employed by Boris Johnson as his political adviser during his period as mayor of London, later writing a book about his experience working closely with Crosby on campaigns. He later went on to run a political campaigning company and became political director on Zac Goldsmith?s ill-fated mayoral bid.

The Brexit supporter said his involvement in Mainstream Network was because ?some who disliked the result have been actively trying to overturn it?. He did not comment on his links to Crosby but said: ?I wanted to see the result actually delivered and give a voice to that majority so the democratic result is honoured.?

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: ?This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for.?

Solomon, the CTF employee, is also connected to a page called We Are the 52%, which has spent more than 50,000 GBP on pro-Brexit Facebook adverts and is fronted by a Conservative activist and former Vote Leave staffer Theodora Dickinson.

Dickinson declined to comment on any links between her group and Crosby?s company but said remain campaigners ?are using similar tactics and spending more? without fully declaring their financial backers, highlighting the 370,000 GBP expenditure on Facebook adverts by the People?s Vote campaign and the 300,000 GBP spent by Best for Britain.

Solomon is also listed as an administrator on at least a dozen other pro-Brexit pages, which typically mix campaigning content with other unrelated interests and appear to have also spent money running an unknown number of pro-Brexit adverts. Pages used for the messaging include Small Business for Great Britain, Northern Industry, and Protecting British Heritage.

The House of Commons digital, culture, media and sport select committee, which has led the way on investigating online disinformation, has repeatedly called for Facebook to reveal the identities of those who were funding Mainstream Network, suggesting they crossed an ethical line.

?I believe there is a strong public interest in understanding who is behind the Mainstream Network, and that this information should be published,? said the committee?s chairman, Damian Collins, last month after Facebook refused to identify the individuals behind the page.

?People should have a right to know who is targeting them with political advertisements and why. That is why the committee had called for a change in the law to outlaw these kind of dark adverts from secret campaigns,? he said.

Although the documents point towards the individuals who are running the campaigns, it remains unclear who is ultimately picking up the substantial bill for this attempt to persuade MPs there is a grassroots uprising for a hard Brexit.

CTF Partners, Carroll, and Solomon did not respond to requests for comment.

I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?

Avnger:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?

Or American oligarchs? Perhaps some insidious Canadian oligarchs.

Avnger:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?

It's "almost cliche" in that it's part of the job of the Russian intelligence services to cause problems for countries like the UK. If they aren't meddling in the biggest political issues of one of the most important NATO countries, they better start looking for new jobs.

Neurotic Void Melody:
oh dear, more tomfuckery has been unveiled

Dawson, the public face of Britain?s Future, declined to comment on who has funded his enormous Facebook ad campaign or whether it was linked to Crosby or the Mainstream Network, instead saying he simply wanted to represent 17.4 million Brexit voters, adding: "This is my way of getting the point across to those in Westminster that the government should honour its manifesto and that the current deal is not what we voted for."

He has no idea what sort of Brexit 17.4 million people voted for. They were offered simultaneously all manner of hard and soft Brexits at the referendum, of which only one could actually be done. If you consider the 48% who voted Remain and who - presumably - would favour a very soft Brexit, then it would require just a tiny percentage of Brexiters to have wanted the same to make the most appropriate democratic option a soft Brexit.

And herein lies the trick where hard Brexiters have tried to use the Brexit vote as a rationale to argue whatever plan they've dreamed up has democratic assent. However, public polls indicate that hard Brexit options are all well under 50% in poularity stakes.

Lil devils x:
No wonder they are so dead set against letting the public have final say. They know the public will never support this so they want to try and force them to accept against their will by faking support. Reminds me of how the FCC in the US was caught faking support for ending net Neutrality, then when even that failed due to the sheer amount of opposition they received, they faked being taken offline by a DDoS attack that never happened. I am amazed at how these people are still in their jobs and not prosecuted for this BS tbh. I hope one day they look back in disgust at the sheer level of corruption we are dealing with in these times.

https://gizmodo.com/senators-demand-fcc-answer-for-fake-comments-after-real-1826213294
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/fcc-lied-to-congress-about-made-up-ddos-attack-investigation-found/

Looks like they are taking a page out of the Republican playbook in the US.

Oh, completely missed those reports at the time! Must of been during a news hibernation period. What manipulative selfish shits. Though I think generally it's less to do with learning dirty tricks from others and more that this type of behaviour just comes naturally to the type of person who views the rest of society as some sort of cattle solely there to bolster their own wealth and power. And if Eton encourages anything effectively, it would appear to be that very mindset. The means and the ends are equally despicable.

Agema:
He has no idea what sort of Brexit 17.4 million people voted for. They were offered simultaneously all manner of hard and soft Brexits at the referendum, of which only one could actually be done. If you consider the 48% who voted Remain and who - presumably - would favour a very soft Brexit, then it would require just a tiny percentage of Brexiters to have wanted the same to make the most appropriate democratic option a soft Brexit.

And herein lies the trick where hard Brexiters have tried to use the Brexit vote as a rationale to argue whatever plan they've dreamed up has democratic assent. However, public polls indicate that hard Brexit options are all well under 50% in poularity stakes.

Yeah, that is a noticeable habit of these hardliners and other variations whom all love to piggyback and appropriate whatever they can to try and appear far more legitimate than they are. They are so afraid of an actual vote where the public are increasingly informed and presented with clearer options, it's very telling in the rhetoric deployed. They have to rely on perpetuating ignorance to get what they desire.

Avnger:
I know its almost cliche at this point, but anyone want to take bets on the Russian government and/or oligarchs having at least partially funded the operation?

Certainly not ruling it out, especially with Aaron Banks and his shady bullshit. But shouldn't forget there are always plenty of the business/upper class more than happy to benefit from public disaster with the time, wealth and contacts to prepare accordingly.

Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I'm still waiting on news on the matter, it seems to me they're stalling for the inevitable. They aren't even trying to revert the situation at this point.

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

In of itself, it seems unlikely. Though, consistently bad government leading to worsening conditions for the people do tend to proceed one or the other of those, but countries can exists as a shambles without that happening.

Thaluikhain:

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

In of itself, it seems unlikely. Though, consistently bad government leading to worsening conditions for the people do tend to proceed one or the other of those, but countries can exists as a shambles without that happening.

.
Yeah, definitely true. Your country be ran badly like Mozambique or if you want a European example, I think Greece also fits the bill. However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?

Worker's Union of Britain or Free Albion? I also accept better names for the two candidates.

TheIronRuler:
However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?

My money's on fascism, the UK has a number of far-right parties and groups worth listening to or courting already. Brexit itself was largely based on a form of the attitudes you see in fascism (xenophobia and the desire for some imagined golden age before "they" ruined it all), though to a lesser extent.

Communism just doesn't have the same power behind it. You've got people who get called communists because they don't like fascists, and you've got various people somewhat sympathetic to communists, but neither of those are likely to give your communist uprising much useful support.

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I don't think the combined might of the UK's 38 citizens who are Communists will be capable of mounting a takeover. Even if we include the non-Communist hard left, it's barely scraping into single digit percentages of the British populace.

Fascists, however - or more strictly illiberal right-wing populists of some description who are not quite fascists - much more likely. They've already got a party of note, numerous social movements in full flow, get TV airtime, plus some newspapers pounding out consistent commentary.

Just in case anyone had forgotten how small-minded people can be: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47833702

Edit: Sorry, meant to note: Slow news day?!

Thaluikhain:

TheIronRuler:
However if one of the two would happen, which one of them do you think will it be?

My money's on fascism, the UK has a number of far-right parties and groups worth listening to or courting already. Brexit itself was largely based on a form of the attitudes you see in fascism (xenophobia and the desire for some imagined golden age before "they" ruined it all), though to a lesser extent.

Communism just doesn't have the same power behind it. You've got people who get called communists because they don't like fascists, and you've got various people somewhat sympathetic to communists, but neither of those are likely to give your communist uprising much useful support.

.
I mean yeah, but the oppressive policing of the UK is hitting them hard on the head. Like, really hard. Plus, you're facing jail sentences if you're carrying a knife around, so pulling brown-shirts is probably out of the question. Unless they're voted in, which I don't think would happen because the establishment would just delete them... Then again, this infrastructure for a surveliance state is deliciously fit for a high-tech fascist regime.
.

Agema:

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I don't think the combined might of the UK's 38 citizens who are Communists will be capable of mounting a takeover. Even if we include the non-Communist hard left, it's barely scraping into single digit percentages of the British populace.

Fascists, however - or more strictly illiberal right-wing populists of some description who are not quite fascists - much more likely. They've already got a party of note, numerous social movements in full flow, get TV airtime, plus some newspapers pounding out consistent commentary.

.
I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.

TheIronRuler:
you can't refuse to accept it and ask for a second vote just because you lost! It is literally undemocratic to disregard a previous vote, and make a second vote!

how about if the people in charge are incapable of directing us out of the EU?
or that we were promised the world would be beating down our door, but now we've seen that no one is?
or that it wasn't defined if we were voting to leave with or without a deal?

how do you meet the needs of a populous which voted 48% remain, while the other 52% is split between deal and no deal without anyone knowing the ratio?

TheIronRuler:

I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.

If Labour were remotely Communist - which outside the wildest fantasies of the right wing press it most certainly isn't - then that might be an argument. As far as I am aware, no Communist has been in evidence on the Escapist for about 3-4 years.

Communism is moribund. Hard socialism is moribund. They've been so for decades. The political scene has shifted well to the right since the days when they were a societal force, that's the only reason now people who propose policies rolling back capitalism to approximately pre-neoliberal 1980s are demonised as "far left". But society wasn't socialist then, and it won't be socialist if we went back to something similar-ish now.

We're in a world where a dodgy right-wing populist is deputy PM of Italy inciting homophobia and xenophobia, where dodgy right-wing populists with histories of Holocaust denial come close to the presidency of France, where dodgy right wing populists have run Hungary for years with overt racism, where the president of the USA calls white nationalists "fine people", where countless dodgy right-wing populists have millions of YouTube followers... Why on earth is anyone worried about Communism, with its approximately zero representation in national politics and media?

Agema:

TheIronRuler:

I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.

If Labour were remotely Communist - which outside the wildest fantasies of the right wing press it most certainly isn't - then that might be an argument. As far as I am aware, no Communist has been in evidence on the Escapist for about 3-4 years.

Communism is moribund. Hard socialism is moribund. They've been so for decades. The political scene has shifted well to the right since the days when they were a societal force, that's the only reason now people who propose policies rolling back capitalism to approximately pre-neoliberal 1980s are demonised as "far left". But society wasn't socialist then, and it won't be socialist if we went back to something similar-ish now.

We're in a world where a dodgy right-wing populist is deputy PM of Italy inciting homophobia and xenophobia, where dodgy right-wing populists with histories of Holocaust denial come close to the presidency of France, where dodgy right wing populists have run Hungary for years with overt racism, where the president of the USA calls white nationalists "fine people", where countless dodgy right-wing populists have millions of YouTube followers... Why on earth is anyone worried about Communism, with its approximately zero representation in national politics and media?

How many people claim to be Communists on YouTube? Far less than people claiming to be Libertarians. And that's not a big group. Yet somehow we're being overrun with Post-Modern Cultural Marxists. Despite those two groups not liking each other.

Agema:

TheIronRuler:

I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.

If Labour were remotely Communist - which outside the wildest fantasies of the right wing press it most certainly isn't - then that might be an argument. As far as I am aware, no Communist has been in evidence on the Escapist for about 3-4 years.

Communism is moribund. Hard socialism is moribund. They've been so for decades. The political scene has shifted well to the right since the days when they were a societal force, that's the only reason now people who propose policies rolling back capitalism to approximately pre-neoliberal 1980s are demonised as "far left". But society wasn't socialist then, and it won't be socialist if we went back to something similar-ish now.

We're in a world where a dodgy right-wing populist is deputy PM of Italy inciting homophobia and xenophobia, where dodgy right-wing populists with histories of Holocaust denial come close to the presidency of France, where dodgy right wing populists have run Hungary for years with overt racism, where the president of the USA calls white nationalists "fine people", where countless dodgy right-wing populists have millions of YouTube followers... Why on earth is anyone worried about Communism, with its approximately zero representation in national politics and media?

.
Resurgence of nationalism in Europe is a blessing in disguise. Truly they will want to distance themselves from the Holocaust, and I think most peoples can do that safely. The Bulgarians, for example, are still appreciated for protecting their Jewish countrymen. The Dutch attempted to burn the country's records and census to stop the Nazis from accurately finding and liquidating any Jews in the Netherlands.

However the same cannot be said for the French, among other peoples. Even the Poles are attempting to salvage their national honor by distancing themselves from the German-ran death-camps on Polish soil. This is all means to purify national honor and justify national unity - a key-step in strengthening the ideas of a nation - like Italy, Hungary, Poland...

Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.

TheIronRuler:

Agema:

TheIronRuler:

I think labor can be voted into power after the UK leaves the EU due to the current party handling this disaster. Then it's a few years of good campaigning to bolster the numbers of those 38 communists, which I believe some of them are forum members. UK already has infrastructure for a surveillance police-state. I'm not saying China, that's a long way off, but still... enough to handle troublemakers. Right-wing populist trouble-makers.

If Labour were remotely Communist - which outside the wildest fantasies of the right wing press it most certainly isn't - then that might be an argument. As far as I am aware, no Communist has been in evidence on the Escapist for about 3-4 years.

Communism is moribund. Hard socialism is moribund. They've been so for decades. The political scene has shifted well to the right since the days when they were a societal force, that's the only reason now people who propose policies rolling back capitalism to approximately pre-neoliberal 1980s are demonised as "far left". But society wasn't socialist then, and it won't be socialist if we went back to something similar-ish now.

We're in a world where a dodgy right-wing populist is deputy PM of Italy inciting homophobia and xenophobia, where dodgy right-wing populists with histories of Holocaust denial come close to the presidency of France, where dodgy right wing populists have run Hungary for years with overt racism, where the president of the USA calls white nationalists "fine people", where countless dodgy right-wing populists have millions of YouTube followers... Why on earth is anyone worried about Communism, with its approximately zero representation in national politics and media?

.
Resurgence of nationalism in Europe is a blessing in disguise. Truly they will want to distance themselves from the Holocaust, and I think most peoples can do that safely. The Bulgarians, for example, are still appreciated for protecting their Jewish countrymen. The Dutch attempted to burn the country's records and census to stop the Nazis from accurately finding and liquidating any Jews in the Netherlands.

However the same cannot be said for the French, among other peoples. Even the Poles are attempting to salvage their national honor by distancing themselves from the German-ran death-camps on Polish soil. This is all means to purify national honor and justify national unity - a key-step in strengthening the ideas of a nation - like Italy, Hungary, Poland...

Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.

Wow; it's been awhile since someone went full "Cultural Marxism controls the world" word-salad around here. Though from your previous rhetoric, it's not too surprising you're a believer. How's QAnon doing these days?

TheIronRuler:

Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.

You need to read some actual leftists, my dude. Post-modernism and leftism are often completely at odds. Not hard to find prominent leftist or leftist publications talking about the evils of post-modernism.

TheIronRuler:

Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.

The Frankfurt School made some valid points in its criticism of culture under capitalism that still ring true to this day but Marxists they weren't. Inspired by Marx for sure but they deviated from his analysis in significant ways that make it hard to think of them as Marxists or even as particularly far to the left. I actually agree that a lot of what's wrong with modern liberalism is in part their fault, namely the incredibly bright notion that the revolutionary vanguard won't be the workers but, as a matter of fact, prissy bourgeois intellectuals like them that will finally liberate a working class that can't think for itself.

It's the reason why the modern western left is still full of the very same prissy bourgeois intellectuals who have zero class consciousness but sure like to moralize endlessly. What's important for the left right now is for it to reconnect to its proletarian roots, for which the teachings of the Frankfurt School are more than counterproductive. They aren't a Marxist movement that's appropriating liberalism, they are a liberal movement that's appropriating marxism.

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I'm still waiting on news on the matter, it seems to me they're stalling for the inevitable. They aren't even trying to revert the situation at this point.

I don't think anyone thinks that will happen. What is already happening, and will continue to happen is people will lose their homes, jobs and country and millions of people will suffer needlessly from this nonsense. Some UK citizens have already moved out of the country over it, many more from the EU as well, and this will only get much worse the further this madness goes. Many are waiting to see if this fails to happen and are hoping common sense finally prevails and need to know for sure before ripping their family up from their homes, schools, friends to go make a new life elsewhere. Many people employed in science, research and the financial sectors are pretty on edge over this, if it actually does happen they will be leaving the country. Many do not have choice if they want to keep their jobs they will have to move out of the UK.

Britain already ?66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit

Credit ratings agency Standard and Poor suggested that since the June 2016 vote, 3% has been shaved off GDP. That equates to "foregone economic activity" of ?6.6billion in each of the 10 quarters since the referendum, or ?66 billion, the agency said.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/

Lil devils x:

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I'm still waiting on news on the matter, it seems to me they're stalling for the inevitable. They aren't even trying to revert the situation at this point.

I don't think anyone thinks that will happen. What is already happening, and will continue to happen is people will lose their homes, jobs and country and millions of people will suffer needlessly from this nonsense. Some UK citizens have already moved out of the country over it, many more from the EU as well, and this will only get much worse the further this madness goes. Many are waiting to see if this fails to happen and are hoping common sense finally prevails and need to know for sure before ripping their family up from their homes, schools, friends to go make a new life elsewhere. Many people employed in science, research and the financial sectors are pretty on edge over this, if it actually does happen they will be leaving the country. Many do not have choice if they want to keep their jobs they will have to move out of the UK.

Britain already ?66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit

Credit ratings agency Standard and Poor suggested that since the June 2016 vote, 3% has been shaved off GDP. That equates to "foregone economic activity" of ?6.6billion in each of the 10 quarters since the referendum, or ?66 billion, the agency said.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/

Nazis March in Charlottesville? It's because liberals pushed them into it.

The Tories make a balls of Brexit? It's because "remoaners" are holding them back. (Also blame the Irish)

Everything is the fault of liberals (or communists or marxists or soy boys or cucks) even when every major developed country has been led by conservatives for decades, have you not learned that yet.

TheIronRuler:
Resurgence of nationalism in Europe is a blessing in disguise. Truly they will want to distance themselves from the Holocaust, and I think most peoples can do that safely.

Will they now:
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Hungarys-Viktor-Orban-fosters-antisemitism-563642
https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-anti-semitism-festers-on-the-internet/

They disown the Holocaust, because it's electorally convenient (like they support free speech only when it's convenient for them). As they faciliate anti-semitism, so it is particularly important to put up a veneer suggesting otherwise. But anti-semitism is rife in European nationalism: they're about white skin and Christian culture and Jews will always be outsiders to them. The other thing is that I also care about the rights of a lot of groups other than Jews that European nationalists consider outsiders to be suppressed (homosexuals being an obvious example). If you don't consider the growing threat to them a problem for your "blessing in disguise", that's your prerogative.

Communism is ever-present in modern Marxist thought, which has overtaken western universities and governments. Critical theory lead by the Frankfurt school for example can be read as Marxists disguising themselves after the utter moral and actual failure of their ideals and policies... You can shroud your shit in post-modernism, but people will still smell shit whenever they view it, unaware of its influences and past.

I think people who don't have any noticable experience of Western universities have a very strange idea of what goes in Western universities. I work in a Western university, and I don't know a single Marxist in it. Going back through my full ~20 years working in Western universities, I have known precisely one Marxist colleague.

It's fascinating to read an Israeli Jew propounding an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. The Frankfurt School were Jews, and they were openly Marxist - they didn't disguise themselves. And they certainly didn't try to create a secret plan to wreck Western society.

Although the key thing is to consider what Marxism is. Firstly, it's sure as shit not postmodernism, because Marx was as modernist as they come and postmodernism was explicitly a reaction to the failures of modernism in the early 20th century. Marxism is not communism, either: Marx didn't even describe communism, except in very vague terms. Much as Marxism has an associated idealised notion of how society (should) end up, ultimately it's a small part of the whole.

Marxism is a very broad collection of theory about stuff like working class empowerment, criticism of late 19th century Western society and capitalism, and ideas about how societies develop. It is perhaps inevitable that at least of some that material turned out to be useful or accurate. Obviously, some of that was therefore incorporated into wider knowledge and understanding, built upon and developed, just like happens with all such thought. Most of it was social so ended up in sociology, but there are bits in economics and elsewhere too. But this isn't full on Marxism. Some of it is new intellectual movements with some element of Marxism. Or you can have "Marxist economists", for instance, but you'll find a lot of them don't support political Marxism at all: they just believe various Marxist principles about the relationship of labour, wages, capital, etc.

What the current "red scare" is really about is a lot of poorly developed attempts to associate leftish wing ideologies with Marx (like "cultural Marxism": dog whistle and antisemitic conspiracy theory which collapses into gibberish when tested) and then say the Commies are trying to take over. And hey, just like in the 1930s, here come the nationalists to save us from the red peril, preaching to save society by excluding and repressing anyone they don't like the look of.

CheetoDust:

Lil devils x:

TheIronRuler:
Ok, show of hands - who here thinks this will lead to a communist takeover or a fascist takeover?

I'm still waiting on news on the matter, it seems to me they're stalling for the inevitable. They aren't even trying to revert the situation at this point.

I don't think anyone thinks that will happen. What is already happening, and will continue to happen is people will lose their homes, jobs and country and millions of people will suffer needlessly from this nonsense. Some UK citizens have already moved out of the country over it, many more from the EU as well, and this will only get much worse the further this madness goes. Many are waiting to see if this fails to happen and are hoping common sense finally prevails and need to know for sure before ripping their family up from their homes, schools, friends to go make a new life elsewhere. Many people employed in science, research and the financial sectors are pretty on edge over this, if it actually does happen they will be leaving the country. Many do not have choice if they want to keep their jobs they will have to move out of the UK.

Britain already ?66,000,000,000 poorer because of Brexit

Credit ratings agency Standard and Poor suggested that since the June 2016 vote, 3% has been shaved off GDP. That equates to "foregone economic activity" of ?6.6billion in each of the 10 quarters since the referendum, or ?66 billion, the agency said.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/04/britain-already-66000000000-poorer-brexit-9113538/

Nazis March in Charlottesville? It's because liberals pushed them into it.

The Tories make a balls of Brexit? It's because "remoaners" are holding them back. (Also blame the Irish)

Everything is the fault of liberals (or communists or marxists or soy boys or cucks) even when every major developed country has been led by conservatives for decades, have you not learned that yet.

it's telling that such positions are so terrible, weak and cannot be reasonably justified when it regularly falls back on "you made us do it." that's what domestic abusers do. except there's not even the flimsy "it's because I love you" ...it's just the spite, denial and callous disregard for anyone but themselves and their fragile sense of pride

if only there was some sort of consumable people could get a hold of that encourages empathy and a far less bitter outlook towards other fellow humans while growing a more positive view of what we can achieve when cooperating in good faith. oh wait, there is, it's just they made it illegal and fired the leading researcher on associated potential harms when he said horse riding was statistically more dangerous. how convenient. can't have a public any less enshrouded by fear and despair now, can we? all the hard effort the British conservative press goes through would be for nought!

Seanchaidh:
Perhaps some insidious Canadian oligarchs.

Seems like you might have discovered our nefarious plan of weakening both the EU and the UK, therefore allowing us to snag more preferential trade deals for the white-and-red motherland.

image

Canuck tactical retreat action - engage.

In all seriousness, I don't get why May would even try to court support from Rees-Mogg and his ilk, they're clearly not arguing in good faith, and are all and all fucking crackers. The fact that she would try to appease them before even considering going to Labour for a compromise deal tells us a lot about the state of the Tories, they're compromised by ultrapaleoconservatives and UKIP loonies. The sooner this cancerous growth of a political entity bursts, the better.

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