Record high amount of young men not having..ehm you-know-what.

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trunkage:

I'm not arguing with you. Your making claims based on your personal experience. I'm just pointing this out. I'm even pointing out how Gethsamani's claim are wrong. Their's is a claim based on steretype that probably doesn't match all experiences.

My claim obviously doesn't match all experiences, that's sort of the thing with macro statistics. There will be very sociable men, men with large networks, men with many close friends etc., just as there will be socially inept women, women without networks or close friends etc.. But on average men have less social contact and friends then women, as well as less inclination to discuss their problems with others, hence why personal disasters (economical ruin, relationship break-ups etc.) tend to cause men to attempt suicide in higher numbers then women.

When discussing general populations we'll never be able to catch all individual experiences, but stereotyped averages still tell us something. Like that men generally can ground lift more then women or that men generally suffer more cardiovascular problems then women.

Palindromemordnilap:
I mean...so? Is it such a disaster that we might be shedding the image that young men are little more than horndogs with nothing but sex on the mind?

Yeah I'm with you on this one; is it so terrible that we're maybe releasing our stranglehold on the idea of 'You must be fucking or you're less adequate' or something? Like maybe both sides of the gender divide taking a collective step backwards to take a goddamn breath is a good idea.

It's a symptom of societal sickness. You could argue automation could replace the lost work-force in the near future. You could also import a different nation's youth to your own country. Both are legitimate options done in nation-states like Japan and France.

However I don't think this is anything close to a healthy trend.

Palindromemordnilap:
I mean...so? Is it such a disaster that we might be shedding the image that young men are little more than horndogs with nothing but sex on the mind?

For this statistic to say anything about that you'd have to poll how much people think about sex, how much they consume lewd material, how much they would like to have sex, why they don't and so on. It's very unlikely young men think about sex less often than before, they just don't get laid.

McElroy:

Palindromemordnilap:
I mean...so? Is it such a disaster that we might be shedding the image that young men are little more than horndogs with nothing but sex on the mind?

For this statistic to say anything about that you'd have to poll how much people think about sex, how much they consume lewd material, how much they would like to have sex, why they don't and so on. It's very unlikely young men think about sex less often than before, they just don't get laid.

Alright, thinking about sex might be the same, hormones are hormones after all, but does this denote something along the lines of what Gordon_4 suggested that we're getting past the idea that sex is some sort of trophy that is the only thing you should care about attaining

Honestly, I find it hard to believe that that number of adults not having sex in the latest year are unable to have sex.

Shlobby, dumb, asocial morons get laid all the time, why would that not be true of anyone?

Palindromemordnilap:
does this denote something along the lines of what Gordon_4 suggested that we're getting past the idea that sex is some sort of trophy that is the only thing you should care about attaining

You could speculate that sex (as defined in the poll, I'm sure alone time didn't count here) has gone down in priority, but how much if at all is just a guess. It's fair to point out that people who set getting out of that 28% as their top priority would most likely have sex once per year. But the article and most of this thread as well speculates what else as changed in the lives of these people. The single population is bigger than ever, people settle down later in life, they live with their parents, there are more things to do alone than before, expectations are diverging too much from reality, and so on.

Attitudes towards sex need another poll. A question they asked here in a study of Finnish sex habits (newest is 2015) comes quite close: Did you want your first time very much? It's about 70% 'yes' for men and 53% for women, but in 2007 it was almost 79% for men and 52% for women. So maybe something, I dunno.

TheIronRuler:
It's a symptom of societal sickness. You could argue automation could replace the lost work-force in the near future. You could also import a different nation's youth to your own country. Both are legitimate options done in nation-states like Japan and France.

However I don't think this is anything close to a healthy trend.

I hope you mean automation for Japan. Because the Japanese are some of the most racist people when it comes to immigrants.

trunkage:

TheIronRuler:
It's a symptom of societal sickness. You could argue automation could replace the lost work-force in the near future. You could also import a different nation's youth to your own country. Both are legitimate options done in nation-states like Japan and France.

However I don't think this is anything close to a healthy trend.

I hope you mean automation for Japan. Because the Japanese are some of the most racist people when it comes to immigrants.

.
I think I wrote it clearly enough and in the right order. A, B ... like C, D.
A--->C
B---->D
So...yeah.
Woosh.

I will say, I'm not exactly in that "young man" stage, which is still something I'm trying to adjust to. However, I am a virgin, and that was an abnormality for my age group, where it was seen as a sign of manhood to have gotten laid.

The reason I mention this is to give my perspective on why I never went out to get laid. Basically, I thought sex was important and meant something...and that's why I never really made it happen for me as of yet. I've had a couple of relationships, both in high school. The first one ended when she "broke up with me" by telling her friend to tell me she was breaking up with me, and then starting another relationship regardless of what my response was. The second, I totally dropped the ball. I wasn't mature enough for a relationship, and it ended with her breaking up with me for expecting her to do the normal boyfriend/girlfriend activities without any hint of reciprocating on my part. Since then, I've been too focused on getting myself together to really think about an outside relationship.

If sex is so important, then the person I have sex with should be important as well. If I can't get myself and my priorities together enough to be fair in a relationship in general, do I really deserve to have sex if it's that big of a deal? And if I just have sex for the sake of having sex, doesn't that cheapen the entire importance of sex?

thebobmaster:
If sex is so important, then the person I have sex with should be important as well. If I can't get myself and my priorities together enough to be fair in a relationship in general, do I really deserve to have sex if it's that big of a deal? And if I just have sex for the sake of having sex, doesn't that cheapen the entire importance of sex?

Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die, but it's sort of a coming of age event. Certainly an experience worth having and typically allows a participant a moment of reflection as to what they can appreciate in such a manner.

There's no need for your partner to be special either in order for you to perform the act. But it is an act worth performing.

TheIronRuler:

trunkage:

TheIronRuler:
It's a symptom of societal sickness. You could argue automation could replace the lost work-force in the near future. You could also import a different nation's youth to your own country. Both are legitimate options done in nation-states like Japan and France.

However I don't think this is anything close to a healthy trend.

I hope you mean automation for Japan. Because the Japanese are some of the most racist people when it comes to immigrants.

.
I think I wrote it clearly enough and in the right order. A, B ... like C, D.
A--->C
B---->D
So...yeah.
Woosh.

Just checking.

Societies moved from Feudal to Mercantile to Capitalistic and there was plenty of sickness and problems with all systems, including during the transfer to the new ones. It's just what happens. We have to whether it as best as possible

Agema:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

But it wasn't until recently that porn was easily available to people from a young age. 12 year old kids have access to all kinds of shit now that I couldn't even have dreamt of at that age. I don't think I had "easy" access to porn until I was like 15 or 16, even then I had to be sneaky about it because the family computer was shared..

When I was a kid, computer porn was 640x480 VGA graphics at best... and frankly that meant you were wasting your time. Magazines and VHS were the media for porn.

Lil devils x:
That isn't how the "sex show" ceremonies that have been going on for thousands of years that Native American Tribes put on went at all. Ceremonies for my tribe were an elaborate stage production with costuming and sex toys and props, no body hair, not unlike modern porn, may be considered a bit more elaborate than most porn, but live on stage for everyone to watch.

That's all coming from a very different cultural context, though, isn't it? It's hardly the same background of sexual prudishness or puritanism of European culture where porn is an sort of moral aberration for sheer sexual gratification; the stuff of furtive 15-year-olds beating themselves off with a constant nagging dread that mum/dad/etc. is going to walk in on them. Whilst perhaps staged or quasi-ritualised, Not I suspect a ubiquitous, 24/7 ongoing display with surgical enhancements selling fantasy as if obtainable reality.

You are correct, as in our culture, sex was celebrated, encouraged and considered beautiful and one of the best parts of life. Masturbation was encouraged and people were not shamed for sex, sexuality, or otherwise repressed in this regard. While not using surgical enhancements, they still had prosthetic enhancements of sorts that were considered sex toys.

I think it may be the difference in how sex is viewed culturally that may encourage disillusionment from viewing porn since they are so sheltered from sex otherwise. If they change how sex is viewed by society as a whole, it would likely change the expectations of sex and relationships and the way porn is viewed as well. When sex is openly discussed and encouraged, it is not made so unfamiliar that they develop strange ideas on what is and what is not expected.

Though also there are biological differences in addition to cultural differences in that some Native American tribes have far less body hair, and the majority of the women, at least in my tribe, tend to be fairly large busted, even when we have a 23" waist, so no need for surgical enhancements on that end. When you described sex of being hairy and such as being reality, that is also ethnic specific reality depending on the group you are speaking of rather than of humans in general. Of course you would not expect a European woman to necessarily be extremely busty, skinny and hairless naturally as Native Americans are, as that is not an accurate representation of the European general population.

Abomination:
Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die,

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

Hawki:

Abomination:
Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die,

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

I guess if you don't do those two things together your whole life and live in the forest or something it could work. The second you get the latter somebody is coming for the former though.

Hawki:

Abomination:
Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die,

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

Silver spooners or perhaps folk who live under subsistence farming conditions still.

EvilRoy:

Hawki:

Abomination:
Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die,

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

I guess if you don't do those two things together your whole life and live in the forest or something it could work. The second you get the latter somebody is coming for the former though.

A lot of people do not file their OWN taxes, someone else in the household does it for them.

Hawki:

Abomination:
Sex is like learning to ride a bike, drive a car, file your taxes, or your first paycheque.

You do not HAVE to do it before you die,

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

A lot of people with debilitating mental illness, severe neuropsychiatric disorders or cognitive dysfunction. Honestly, the amount of people I've met at work who have had a court-mandated guardian take care of their economy because they are utterly unable to make a budget or even understand their own needs is staggering.

Lil devils x:

Agema:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

But it wasn't until recently that porn was easily available to people from a young age. 12 year old kids have access to all kinds of shit now that I couldn't even have dreamt of at that age. I don't think I had "easy" access to porn until I was like 15 or 16, even then I had to be sneaky about it because the family computer was shared..

When I was a kid, computer porn was 640x480 VGA graphics at best... and frankly that meant you were wasting your time. Magazines and VHS were the media for porn.

Lil devils x:
That isn't how the "sex show" ceremonies that have been going on for thousands of years that Native American Tribes put on went at all. Ceremonies for my tribe were an elaborate stage production with costuming and sex toys and props, no body hair, not unlike modern porn, may be considered a bit more elaborate than most porn, but live on stage for everyone to watch.

That's all coming from a very different cultural context, though, isn't it? It's hardly the same background of sexual prudishness or puritanism of European culture where porn is an sort of moral aberration for sheer sexual gratification; the stuff of furtive 15-year-olds beating themselves off with a constant nagging dread that mum/dad/etc. is going to walk in on them. Whilst perhaps staged or quasi-ritualised, Not I suspect a ubiquitous, 24/7 ongoing display with surgical enhancements selling fantasy as if obtainable reality.

You are correct, as in our culture, sex was celebrated, encouraged and considered beautiful and one of the best parts of life. Masturbation was encouraged and people were not shamed for sex, sexuality, or otherwise repressed in this regard. While not using surgical enhancements, they still had prosthetic enhancements of sorts that were considered sex toys.

I think it may be the difference in how sex is viewed culturally that may encourage disillusionment from viewing porn since they are so sheltered from sex otherwise. If they change how sex is viewed by society as a whole, it would likely change the expectations of sex and relationships and the way porn is viewed as well. When sex is openly discussed and encouraged, it is not made so unfamiliar that they develop strange ideas on what is and what is not expected.

Though also there are biological differences in addition to cultural differences in that some Native American tribes have far less body hair, and the majority of the women, at least in my tribe, tend to be fairly large busted, even when we have a 23" waist, so no need for surgical enhancements on that end. When you described sex of being hairy and such as being reality, that is also ethnic specific reality depending on the group you are speaking of rather than of humans in general. Of course you would not expect a European woman to necessarily be extremely busty, skinny and hairless naturally as Native Americans are, as that is not an accurate representation of the European general population.

I think the problem here is that you're acting like the sex we're talking about is normal sex. I'm fairly sure families in the olden days didn't gather around the campfire to watch simulated gang rape or see a women have 4 dicks crammed inside her butt.

Here Comes Tomorrow:

I'm fairly sure families in the olden days didn't gather around the campfire to watch simulated gang rape or see a women have 4 dicks crammed inside her butt.

Good wholesome viewing for the whole family.

IceForce:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

I'm fairly sure families in the olden days didn't gather around the campfire to watch simulated gang rape or see a women have 4 dicks crammed inside her butt.

Good wholesome viewing for the whole family.

If you don't tell it never happened!

is logical. increase in access and ease of modern distractions: less focus on sexy fun time being only distraction

it's fine

funny. but fine

...

also, is it too soon to blame sex robots? I think we're almost there. even the sex industry isn't safe from the perils of automation

Abomination:

EvilRoy:

Hawki:

I'd be curious as to who managed to go through life without ever having to pay tax or receive a pay cheque.

I guess if you don't do those two things together your whole life and live in the forest or something it could work. The second you get the latter somebody is coming for the former though.

A lot of people do not file their OWN taxes, someone else in the household does it for them.

And some of us live in countries where the tax system isn't dumb.

JoJo:
Out of curiosity, is your 70/30 figure sourced from somewhere, or just an estimate?

Like the Pareto rule, it is argued to be more 80/20
https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a
image
Supposedly, 20 women would prefer to share a handsome man than have a mediocre looking man to themselves, at least in hook up culture.

Saelune:
Ugly people breed all the time. Personally, I find that to be an optimistic observation.

I'm thinking these results are about hook up culture. That ugly people will procreate but they aren't going to be having the same sexual experiences as the very attractive. If the 80-20 rule is true, you are going to have the "Chads" getting sex 20 times, while 20 women have sex once, 19 guys, 0 in a year, disparity between men and women. I'm exagerating for purposes of illustration. I think my son a Chad but he doesn't put in any effort. He just on occassion tells me a girl is coming over so I become scarce. There are other things going on... more below.

Agema:
It's because of pornography.
Why have real sex with real people when they can't live up to the fantasies people have been brainwashed with since their teens? It's just going to be an exercise in anxiety and disappointment.

I'd think that a big component of it all. Porn and other masturbation aids do not say no or accuse you of inappropriate conduct eithe.

Samtemdo8:
I'd say its because in this day and age, its hard for a person to approach and court another person without being seen as a some sexual predator, creepy stalker.
Its especially harder for a male to approach a female.

Yep.
https://people.com/movies/henry-cavill-criticized-saying-hesitant-flirt-over-fears-of-being-called-rapist/
Aslo, men have low testosterone compared to the past:
https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/men-have-less-testosterone-today
Why this is happening is only speculated at this time.

Gorfias:

image


Once you are talking about advantages, you start to threat sex like a power play, and that's a bad way to see relationships.

CaitSeith:

Gorfias:

image


Once you are talking about advantages, you start to threat sex like a power play, and that's a bad way to see relationships.

At least in this post, I did not offer an opinion on anything. Jo Jo asked if there is anything supporting the 80-20 view and I provided a link.
I do think you can have an interesting discussion about the social impact of virtual polygamy in the West.

Gorfias:

I do think you can have an interesting discussion about the social impact of virtual polygamy in the West.

Only that I have never heard that term before in my life. It sounds like romance drama set 100% in Second Life (or a Skyrim mod).

Gorfias:

https://people.com/movies/henry-cavill-criticized-saying-hesitant-flirt-over-fears-of-being-called-rapist/
Aslo, men have low testosterone compared to the past:
https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/men-have-less-testosterone-today
Why this is happening is only speculated at this time.

I think the reason is b/c humans are an adaptive organism. Environmental pressures need to trigger a surge in hormones but if the environment is as such that many of our more primitive drives are suppressed, that would naturally lead to a decline in hormones. Similarly, if one is heavily discouraged by repeated rejection then it's very much 'use it or lose it' and I think in modern society with so many distractions and which is so oriented on the individual the trade-off for further humiliation just simply isn't worth it.

I think in the past when society pushed people more to conform to social norms and in which women had less choice and when there were far less distractions; more people(or specifically men) were in relationships but I highly doubt these were really of the envious kind. I think the dynamic of women finding only a really small percentage of men attractive has always been there, but the absence of modern technology and the adherence to social norms simply prevented this cherry picking.

So yeah, in the end that development is to be applauded ofcourse b/c it only shows many women were ostensibly pressured to date/marry many guys in the past sacrificing their own happiness in return. That's why I think 30% of young men not having sex is definitely a high number, not that this is bad or anything but rather that it will reverberate through society and have some definite implications not only for the make-up of the next generation but also the necessary social investment, the 'glue' holding it all together. If you live your twenties celibate, the older you get the less likely that is going to change. Maybe not even the sex part but having missed out on such an essential experience in your youth it's unlikely you'll go all 'traditional' later in life.

That's why I said there will be attractive people having the kind and amount of sex the media pretends is the 'norm', and you have the ehm.. aesthetically, economically and physically less fortunate out reproduce the average. This will deepen the divisions between people even further, and I think will aggravate social relations more than current ideological or political differences as the modicum of cohesion that is still present will be all but gone.

Ultimately what really counts ofcourse is that people are happy, and maybe we are really just in this technological frontier era in which people transition from social animals to a collection of individuals with conflicting interests. The contours of which are ofcourse already visible.

stroopwafel:

Gorfias:

https://people.com/movies/henry-cavill-criticized-saying-hesitant-flirt-over-fears-of-being-called-rapist/
Aslo, men have low testosterone compared to the past:
https://bigthink.com/sex-relationships/men-have-less-testosterone-today
Why this is happening is only speculated at this time.

I think the reason is b/c humans are an adaptive organism. Environmental pressures need to trigger a surge in hormones but if the environment is as such that many of our more primitive drives are suppressed, that would naturally lead to a decline in hormones. Similarly, if one is heavily discouraged by repeated rejection then it's very much 'use it or lose it' and I think in modern society with so many distractions and which is so oriented on the individual the trade-off for further humiliation just simply isn't worth it. I think in the past when society pushed people more to conform to social norms and in which women had less choice and when there were far less distractions; more people(or specifically men) were in relationships but I highly doubt these were really of the envious kind. I think the dynamic of women finding only a really small percentage of men attractive has always been there, but the absence of modern technology and the adherence to social norms simply prevented this cherry picking.

So yeah, in the end that development is to be applauded ofcourse b/c it only shows many women were ostensibly pressured to date/marry many guys in the past sacrificing their own happiness in return. That's why I think 30% of young men not having sex is definitely a high number, not that this is bad or anything but rather that it will reverberate through society and have some definite implications not only for the make-up of the next generation but also the necessary social investment, the 'glue' holding it all together. If you live your twenties celibate, the older you get the less likely that is going to change. Maybe not even the sex part but having missed out on such an essential experience in your youth it's unlikely you'll go all 'traditional' later in life.

That's why I said there will be attractive people having the kind and amount of sex the media pretends is the 'norm', and you have the ehm.. aesthetically, economically and physically less fortunate out reproduce the average. This will deepen the divisions between people even further, and I think will aggravate social relations more than current ideological or political differences as the modicum of cohesion that is still present will be all but gone.

Ultimately what really counts ofcourse is that people are happy, and maybe we are really just in this technological frontier era in which people transition from social animals to a collection of individuals with conflicting interests. The contours of which are ofcourse already visible.

.
The Incels the rising, my friend, and the horizon is dimmed with red mist. May god have mercy on our souls.

TheIronRuler:

The Incels the rising, my friend, and the horizon is dimmed with red mist. May god have mercy on our souls.

Lol yeah, but the joke's on them. They've been the norm(ie) all along! xD

CaitSeith:

Gorfias:

I do think you can have an interesting discussion about the social impact of virtual polygamy in the West.

Only that I have never heard that term before in my life. It sounds like romance drama set 100% in Second Life (or a Skyrim mod).

Serial Monogamy is more known. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=serial%20monogamy If you think a society needs its men and women to pair off for the greatest social stability, then you'd see a problem with, say, Trump having had 3 women in his life during their peak fertility. Statistically speaking, that's 2 men that did not have a woman in their life during their fertility peak. Because of improving masturbation aids and perhaps exogenysis in the future, this pairing off may not be important.

stroopwafel:
I think the reason is b/c humans are an adaptive organism. Environmental pressures need to trigger a surge in hormones but if the environment is as such that many of our more primitive drives are suppressed, that would naturally lead to a decline in hormones. Similarly, if one is heavily discouraged by repeated rejection then it's very much 'use it or lose it' and I think in modern society with so many distractions and which is so oriented on the individual the trade-off for further humiliation just simply isn't worth it. ... there will be attractive people having the kind and amount of sex the media pretends is the 'norm', and you have the ehm.. aesthetically, economically and physically less fortunate out reproduce the average. This will deepen the divisions between people even further, and I think will aggravate social relations more than current ideological or political differences as the modicum of cohesion that is still present will be all but gone.

Use it or lose it makes sense. Some say our diets, with GMOs and soy are doing this to us. Interesting that you posit we may seen a greater disparity in the genetic lottery along with the greater disparity of income between elites and the rank and file. You have a point.

Is there a problem with this or anything?

Gorfias:

JoJo:
Out of curiosity, is your 70/30 figure sourced from somewhere, or just an estimate?

Like the Pareto rule, it is argued to be more 80/20
https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a
image
Supposedly, 20 women would prefer to share a handsome man than have a mediocre looking man to themselves, at least in hook up culture.

Thank you for that. Though, I still believe outside of looks-driven hook-up culture, the numbers would look more equitable. One handsome man might be able to hook up with twenty different women in a year, but he can't marry all of them ;-)

The Decapitated Centaur:
Is there a problem with this or anything?

Ask Japan.

The Decapitated Centaur:
Is there a problem with this or anything?

not for most people. but this is the sort of information that MRAs, incels, people who mentally live in the 1800s and the like will immediately misinterpret and lap up as confirmation bias for their particularly narrowed self-serving world views, thus the hand-wringing, pearl-clutching panic of a perceived entitlement to sex being robbed off them by a society of women not fulfilling their duty of baby-spouting, husband-pleasing obedient wifery is further validated, no matter how ridiculous

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