Star Wars Episode 9.....The Rise of Skywalker.

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As I have said elsewhere, I'm hella excited for the thousands of angry white nerd YouTube videos about how this film is SJW propaganda and for this film to go on and make a billion dollars regardless.

Kind of a dopey title, though it's a series about space monks and laser swords. It's always kinda been a bit silly. I enjoyed the last one well enough, probably see this one too eventually.

Gethsemani:

Silentpony:
I disagree entirely. The Force Awakens was the laziest star wars movie done, and Last Jedi was the worst.
For all the bullshit in the prequels, they were at least trying to do something. I haven't felt one scene in the new movies had any effort put into it. The whole thing feels like a very lazy cash-grab, not like the writers/producers had an interesting story they wanted to tell.

You can disagree and there's some merit to the argument that TFA is lazy (though I disagree personally). However, the prequels are not just lazy, their storytelling is actively bad. From the fact that the finale of TPM has the jedis fight an adversary we know nothing about and treats it as this incredibly poignant moment, while the space fight comes down to "boy who never touched flight controls before scores a gazillion lucky coincidences to win all on his own" to the incredibly poorly thought out idea of letting the unspecified but somewhere in her late teens Queen Amidala build a romantic rapport with a 10 year old. How about the disastrously handled arc for Anakin in AotC? How Sidious right hand is once again not properly introduced (I even forget his name) but once again played up as if he's this important rival we ought to care about? The nonsensical plot about Camino and the Clone troopers (so Sidious orders the clones, then tries to hide the fact for some reason, but his plan hinges on the clones to help prosecute the war so he can become Emperor. Alternatively, he started a losing war against the trade federation without any way to win it, lucks out on the clone troopers being ready so that he isn't murderdeathkilled by the TF when they win the war so that he can assume emergency powers).

Dislike the new movies all you like, but at least they are consistent narratively, they don't screw up important characterization or introduce weird sidekick characters for comic relief that end up universally despised. The prequels are terrible stories, the worst you can say about TFA and TLJ is that they are lazy and too eager to deconstruct the franchise respectively.

Eh...I'd actually debate that. There are a lot of execution issues, don't get me wrong (ranging from a fighter somehow piloting the same as a racecar to the "I haven't seen her in ten years" romance), but for all their flaws, the prequels had - thus far - tighter overall storytelling, while the sequels have been more meandering. Summing up the prequel trilogy, they're about the rise of the Galactic Empire and Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. And we get steady progression in that regard. We see Palpatine become Supreme Chancellor of the Senate, exploiting a civil war to get emergency powers a la Julius Caesar and becoming a functional dictator, and finally dropping all pretense of being willing to step down by dissolving the Republic and declaring himself the ruler of the new Galactic Empire. Similarly, for Anakin we see him change from a sweet kid to an angry and entitled Padawan and finally going over the deep end and becoming a Sith Lord.

Sequels? The first one was a variation on A New Hope, and the second was a giant chase scene which starts and ends with the Resistance just barely escaping the First Order and with the characters ultimately ending up in the same point in their development that they were at the end of the previous movie. It's a lot of fluff that didn't actually serve a purpose outside of giving us something else to look at other than Rey trying to convince Luke to train her, and even that subplot ended up going almost nowhere as Luke stops training her within minutes of starting. This is actually a bit of a persistent problem within the film, it sets up and twists things to absolutely no effect.

Take, for instance, the big fight between Luke and Ben. Set up to be an Obi-Wan moment where Luke sacrifices himself to distract the biggest threat. Except we then learn that he was never in any danger at all because it was a projection, opening up the door for him to be a better teacher in the next installment...except he dies anyways as soon as he stops projecting himself, so there is no reason to do the twist on the sacrificial act in the first place. Alternatively, take Kylo Ren killing Snoke. It's something that was potentially interesting and is cast as a pivotal moment, but it's ultimately little more than shock value to the audience. Snoke was as enigmatic when he died as he was when he was introduced and unlike Vader killing Palpatine it didn't represent a change in Kylo's character. His goals, methods, and authority within the First Order were already not appreciably different than Snoke's, so nothing really changes outside of Ben's official title. He kills Snoke and then it's business as usual for Kylo Ren, Rey, the Resistance, and the First Order.

We can also look at the assault run where it looks like Kylo's about to kill his mother. He hesitates...and it looks like an important character moment evidencing that good's still in him...which is completely undermined by someone else taking the shot and him basically shrugging it off. And let's talk about that for a moment. Leia got spaced. She's floating lifeless outside the breached ship, her corpse slowly icing over. Holy hell, that's a poignant moment that we didn't see coming...oh wait, she wakes up and just flies back into the ship with the Force. So what was the point of spacing her like that? As I said, this is a bit of a recurring issue in the film.

There are so many moments that could have been powerful, but they're all rendered pointless because they're there purely for a "just kidding" revocation. Really, I'd go as far as to say that the Last Jedi was more about killing plotlines than it was about developing them.

Basement Cat:

Suffice to say that the response to the Teaser Trailer---away from The Escapist---has been notably (even staggeringly) far more positive than what is This site's seeminginly-reflexive: "New Stars Wars Film"? Damn it w/out hesitation!!!"

Not impressed by this site's comments so far. Don't expect to be.

Everyone is allowed their opinion, and it just so happens a lot of the opinions here lean that direction. We're not here to impress anyone with our thoughts. Honestly, both movies were somewhat cool to see in theaters, but I'm not gonna sit here and pretend they're marvelous works of cinema either. Both TFA and TLJ had some extremely glaring flaws, the latter especially so, that makes me (And a few others) feel over-all not as excited about the next one as one would want. And I was hyped as hell for TFA at first.

But hey, sorry to hear we didn't live up to your expectations. I'm glad and happy to be put down by a mod through comparison towards your personal friend group's responses, and in a way saying we're a disappointment for our opinions and thoughts towards something you're excited for

I hope it's good.

I liked the Awakens and I liked Last Jedi.

I HOPE they don't recon Rey into a Skywalker.

Though, given that laugh at the end...and the fact that the comics have made Sheev Palpatine Annie's 'father'.

Maybe Rey is related to the 'Skywalker' line via Palpatine.

O_O

That Palpatine laugh at the end

Starting to get Dark Empire flashbacks.

I think Star Wars would work better if it was a high budget live action tv show.

Leg End:

THE SAGA COMES TO AN END

Thank fucking God. Awakens was a cockblock, Last Jedi was the murder of this franchise, and this looks like the defilement of the corpse. Disney, just stop. It's already dead.

PsychedelicDiamond:
I'm still not on board with them bringing Abrams back to direct and I sure hope he doesn't retcon Last Jedi, just because it was collateral damage in a blatantly political and blatantly antisemitic propaganda campaing.

...What?

Samtemdo8:

They never were

I give the prequels points just for giving us this track.

This one is better

Found this comment

Since Luke was the last trained jedi, one theory is that Skywalker may be the new title for jedi. So any force user there-onward is a "skywalker"

Gethsemani:

weird sidekick characters for comic relief that end up universally despised.

Yeah...because everyone LOVED Rose Tico.

Kenbo Slice:

Gethsemani:

weird sidekick characters for comic relief that end up universally despised.

Yeah...because everyone LOVED Rose Tico.

To be fair I can't name anybody who loved C-3PO either.

Basement Cat:
I'm a long time player of SWTOR. Earlier today I logged in, heard that the Teaser had "JUST BEEN RELEASED!!!" and promptly checked it out.

I loved it and shared a few comments w/ my guildmates whom range everywhere from Pro to Con as far as the new trilogy is concern. In the meantime the General Chat was going effing bonkers with every kind of response you could imagine.

KEY: The response from thw Escapist's (small) select representation of STAR WARS: The Rise of Skywalker Teaser Trailer has been overwhelmingly far more antagonistic than even that of the reactions made by SWTOR players who vulgarly laud their infinite hatred towards the new Trilogy. In. The. General. Chat.

Yeah, to my mind that says so much about...

Suffice to say that the response to the Teaser Trailer---away from The Escapist---has been notably (even staggeringly) far more positive than what is This site's seeminginly-reflexive: "New Stars Wars Film"? Damn it w/out hesitation!!!"

Not impressed by this site's comments so far. Don't expect to be.

Is "Star Wars teaser trailer plays great in Star Wars F2P community but not so much elsewhere" a front page headline to you?

Kenbo Slice:

Gethsemani:

weird sidekick characters for comic relief that end up universally despised.

Yeah...because everyone LOVED Rose Tico.

I am utterly shocked that people remember that character's name.

I mean, the moment I read it I was like 80% sure I knew who you were talking about, but I still had to google it to make sure. For a character with THAT MUCH screen time in the movie I can barely remember anything about her.

Silentpony:
Its sad that the Prequels are now not the worst star wars trilogy

You're kidding, right?

The current trilogy is the start of the decline of Star Wars from legend into generic commercial exploitation. To Disney, there is no legend - just an excuse to make a fuckton of movies and movie tie-ins until the regression to the mean kicks in, everything drops into mediocrity and it becomes flogging a dead horse. I don't much like JJ Abrams either, as a man who "reimagines" things entirely to his own convenience rather than with the love and respect many fans have, albeit is very safe pair of hands. But he's a safe pair of hands and he knows how to make a decent movie.

But the prequels were grossly incompetent in numerous ways. Fundamentally undermining it at the core is that the collapse into evil of the central character, Anakin, is extremely poorly handled. Annoying child, then heroic with a bit of an anger problem, slips into anguished and torn, then pops straight off to murder a load of children. Well, fuck. In plot terms it is both weak, and full of holes. Over-CGIed. The acting is shockingly bland for the quality of actors involved. Star Wars has never created another character as annoying as Jar-Jar: his effective retirement after one film speaks volumes.

I recommend anyone checks out Spaced, S2E1, to reflect how a lot of us felt about Phantom Menace: e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUkCJDkG3fg

There are a few ways the prequel trilogy is better than the sequel trilogy. I do think Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe was more cohesive, and he was more interested in creating new and interesting expansions to it (where Abrams seems to mostly repeat already generated places in actuality or style). But it doesn't outweigh the fact that the decades Lucas spent playing around with business-building seems to have led to a shocking decline in his quality as a film-maker.

Asita:

Take, for instance, the big fight between Luke and Ben. Set up to be an Obi-Wan moment where Luke sacrifices himself to distract the biggest threat. Except we then learn that he was never in any danger at all because it was a projection, opening up the door for him to be a better teacher in the next installment...except he dies anyways as soon as he stops projecting himself, so there is no reason to do the twist on the sacrificial act in the first place.

He sacrificed himself to win without fighting. Exactly like he would have against the Emperor if Vader hadn't turned.

Asita:

Alternatively, take Kylo Ren killing Snoke. It's something that was potentially interesting and is cast as a pivotal moment, but it's ultimately little more than shock value to the audience. Snoke was as enigmatic when he died as he was when he was introduced and unlike Vader killing Palpatine it didn't represent a change in Kylo's character. His goals, methods, and authority within the First Order were already not appreciably different than Snoke's, so nothing really changes outside of Ben's official title. He kills Snoke and then it's business as usual for Kylo Ren, Rey, the Resistance, and the First Order.

Except he's the Master now. He's in charge, not somebody's lapdog. He's (in his mind at least) no longer beholden to anybody else and is the master of his own evil fate. He had the chance to turn away from being a neo-nazi fuckwit and turned it down.

Asita:

We can also look at the assault run where it looks like Kylo's about to kill his mother. He hesitates...and it looks like an important character moment evidencing that good's still in him...which is completely undermined by someone else taking the shot and him basically shrugging it off.

That just shows he's not 100% lost. Well, at that point in the movie, anyway.

Asita:

And let's talk about that for a moment. Leia got spaced. She's floating lifeless outside the breached ship, her corpse slowly icing over. Holy hell, that's a poignant moment that we didn't see coming...oh wait, she wakes up and just flies back into the ship with the Force. So what was the point of spacing her like that? As I said, this is a bit of a recurring issue in the film.

Sets up that Leia developed some of her natural force abilities, shows why X-Wing pilots talk about ejecting even though they lack all kinds of vacuum survival gear (Star Wars space is more survivable than our space, although between the lack of Hollywood explosive decompression and the brief amount of time she was exposed, that was inadvertently the most scientifically realistic scene in Star Wars), and was probably a set up for General Leia to show off during Episode 9, which like 7 focused on Han and 8 focused on Luke, was supposed to be her time to shine. Until reality intervened. So we get successful administrator and effective leader Lando Calrissian instead

Asita:

There are so many moments that could have been powerful, but they're all rendered pointless because they're there purely for a "just kidding" revocation. Really, I'd go as far as to say that the Last Jedi was more about killing plotlines than it was about developing them.

We've got a pedigreed badass with ample generational advantages being pitted as an equal against a backwoods yokel with drive and talent, we've got a cyclical system of endless war perpetuated by people that profit from and are untouched by them, we've got the fact that successful revolutions rely on thorough groundwork and long term effort far more than single instances of flashy heroics, but said flashy heroics and legends create stories and show that you have to believe that the "impossible" is possible. We're going into the final story arc where the rebellion is on the backfoot but because of stories, legends, and cunning, their far more powerful enemy has lost all of its momentum. Remember: the only person that knows, for sure, that the Legendary Luke Skywalker is dead is Leia, and possibly Rey and Kylo. First Order Trooper KH-002 just saw this one dude punk an entire fleet of the most powerful military in the galaxy like some Trickster God, chumping their new boss minutes/hours after their old boss got cocky and didn't stop a suicide attack from a defenseless piece of rebel trash which crippled their flagship.

There's plenty of plot threads hanging around, and that's before we get into potential redemption arcs, the Poe-Finn-Tico love triangle, or the sheer fact that Force Ghosts and Clones are a thing that's well established. I've got money on "Snoke was an Emperor clone that didn't meet the Emperor's standards"

Chewster:
As I have said elsewhere, I'm hella excited for the thousands of angry white nerd YouTube videos about how this film is SJW propaganda and for this film to go on and make a billion dollars regardless.

Kind of a dopey title, though it's a series about space monks and laser swords. It's always kinda been a bit silly. I enjoyed the last one well enough, probably see this one too eventually.

My Youtube recs are going to be garbage. I'd set up a betting pool on how many solid weeks worth of "content" is going to be created in the next 8 months, but I'd probably guess low and be disappointed on several levels. Plus, who'd have the time to count all of that?

Marik2:
Found this comment

Since Luke was the last trained jedi, one theory is that Skywalker may be the new title for jedi. So any force user there-onward is a "skywalker"

Having just seen this, it's my preferred theory.

altnameJag:

Marik2:
Found this comment

Since Luke was the last trained jedi, one theory is that Skywalker may be the new title for jedi. So any force user there-onward is a "skywalker"

Having just seen this, it's my preferred theory.

Surely if the name was becoming a title, it should be called Rise of the Skywalker?

Kind of not liking how many times it tries cramming still from the original trilogy at us. Look, bits of the Death Star! Look, the Emperor's laugh! Look, skiffs like those ones Jabba had! Thought it was a valid tactic for Force Awakens, but we're several movies in now, you don't need to keep reminding us you're Star Wars. It feels like either this is them trying to over-correct from Last Jedi, or maybe just that JJ Abrams is a bit of a one trick pony

Palindromemordnilap:
It feels like either this is them trying to over-correct from Last Jedi, or maybe just that JJ Abrams is a bit of a one trick pony

It is also a really easy way to get the masses hyped for the movie in a teaser trailer. At this point it is good to remember that trailers always lie.

Basement Cat:
I'm a long time player of SWTOR. Earlier today I logged in, heard that the Teaser had "JUST BEEN RELEASED!!!" and promptly checked it out.

I loved it and shared a few comments w/ my guildmates whom range everywhere from Pro to Con as far as the new trilogy is concern. In the meantime the General Chat was going effing bonkers with every kind of response you could imagine.

KEY: The response from thw Escapist's (small) select representation of STAR WARS: The Rise of Skywalker Teaser Trailer has been overwhelmingly far more antagonistic than even that of the reactions made by SWTOR players who vulgarly laud their infinite hatred towards the new Trilogy. In. The. General. Chat.

Star Wars fans will love more Star Wars, and anyone playing SWTOR is going to probably not have the negative reaction that people who aren't necessarily into Star Wars will. We're probably a better consensus among a more highly-critical userbase of things than TOR, while TOR might be better for a consensus among... well, TOR players, who presumably like something of Star Wars.

Yeah, to my mind that says so much about...

We're all adults here. You can say it.

Suffice to say that the response to the Teaser Trailer---away from The Escapist---has been notably (even staggeringly) far more positive than what is This site's seeminginly-reflexive: "New Stars Wars Film"? Damn it w/out hesitation!!!"

If you like, I can write a small piece on why my personal reaction is what it is. It isn't just blind hatred, it is my opinion as a non-fan of the franchise that has seen the films, and sees Disney's general mismanagement with the new Trilogy, as well as how they handled Rogue One, which is probably my second or third favorite film in the franchise. It would have absolutely been tied for first with Empire if they had kept a lot of the plot points and scenes from the initial teaser.

Not impressed by this site's comments so far. Don't expect to be.

I am. Everyone seems to be giving it a full critical eye, with varying results. We all seem to have our opinions and can discuss them, as fans or not.

Elvis Starburst:
Man... After the last 2 movies, honestly, fuck this thing. Also, what a seriously bleh title. Rise of Skywalker? He's DEAD, he's not rising from anywhere but the grave! Unless it's some other person named Skywalker. In which case, I can't wait to see what kind of madness they come up with. This whole trilogy was such a waste of potential.

They're doing a 180 after they realized that making an entire movie about burying the past means you're burying the money, and nobody likes your new characters or plot(what little new bits of plot there actually is). This film is a shovel, digging into the grave.

God this song is fucking amazing, easily my favourite part of the whole prequel trilogy. I don't even care the fight was choreographed nonsense. It was neat and this song made it even better. Really wish I could use it in my D&D campaign somewhere without it being super obvious where its from, it's a little too iconic I feel.

It'd help if it didn't have bits and pieces of previous original trilogy tracks. But you might be set, since most people seem to jump onto Duel of the Fates anyway. Good luck!

Marik2:

...We'll agree to disagree. While it is a great track, I think it is really overhyped and Battle of the Heroes captures a truly important moment in the franchise. Hell, captures it better than the actual image does. Both songs are absolutely bitchin though.

Gethsemani:

It is also a really easy way to get the masses hyped for the movie in a teaser trailer. At this point it is good to remember that trailers always lie.

I will never forgive Disney for Rogue One. My erection was maximum, and then the film just gave a decent/fairly-above standard lay.

Johnny Novgorod:

Is "Star Wars teaser trailer plays great in Star Wars F2P community but not so much elsewhere" a front page headline to you?

I mean, if he wanted to simply come out with it and say he has no faith in us and expects this community to be shit flingers, he could've cut the post down and said so.

Agema:

I do think Lucas's vision of the Star Wars universe was more cohesive, and he was more interested in creating new and interesting expansions to it (where Abrams seems to mostly repeat already generated places in actuality or style). But it doesn't outweigh the fact that the decades Lucas spent playing around with business-building seems to have led to a shocking decline in his quality as a film-maker.

That's the thing though... As crap as the prequels were, I can at least watch them feeling good knowing that it was Lucas behind it. That he was expanding Star Wars in the ways he knew and planned, and not by some mega corporation that's just crapping these movies out without much care or attention to them. There are a few shining moments (And even a shining movie in Rogue One for me personally) but it's still not really the same Star Wars I know and love. I'd rather watch The Clone Wars than The Last Jedi. Boring as episode 2 is, it's not whatever the fuck that movie was trying to be

altnameJag:
*snip*

To perhaps explain this a little better, the problem is the persistent pointlessness of the bait and switch. In the case of Luke vs Kylo, for instance, there is literally no point in Luke not actually being there. Narratively the purpose of Luke being an illusion is to play up the old jedi as a powerful and crafty figure. It's not just that he was able to make sport of Kylo in the fight, it's that Luke completely fooled him and made him waste his time trying to kill someone who wasn't even there. And it wasn't because of his perceived threat level. Kylo simply wanted him dead that badly, hence the rest of the First Order doing nothing during that duel.

Cue the finale, when after doing nothing but dodging to show how outclassed Kylo was, he turns off his lightsaber and lets himself be struck down. And there's the twist, he's not actually there. Kylo could have never killed him in the first place, and Luke caps the fight off by implying that this isn't the last they'll see of each other...and then one minute and thirty seconds later he dies anyway, which completely undermines the point of the twist. It's an arbitrary twist that's purely there for the sake of twisting. There is no functional difference between Luke dying at Kylo's hand and being killed by the technique he used to trick Kylo into thinking he could kill him.

Put a different way, let's try to sum this scene up for anyone watching Episode IX without watching Episode VIII. "Wait, Luke's dead?" "Yeah, he died after fighting Kylo Ren in the last movie." "Kylo killed him?" "No" "So he didn't die because of the fight?" "Well, no, it was definitely due to what happened in the fight" "...Huh?" "See, when Kylo struck the killing blow we learned that Luke wasn't really there, but the technique he was using to pretend to be there killed him anyways." It's a pointless distinction. While learning that Luke was projecting himself is quite the spectacle, there wasn't a narrative purpose in creating that spectacle.

Similarly in the case of Leia being spaced, none of what you mention is actually relevant. Leia is defined by her role as a general, not as a force user. Having force ability is a fun touch, but ultimately irrelevant to her character. Ejection is fridge logic. Surviving being spaced has no impact on the probability of her being a central character in subsequent movies. It's all fluff. And the central issue at play is the way the scene mournfully focuses on Leia floating in space to emphasize the tragedy of the loss...only for her to then open her eyes and fly back in. Much like with Luke floating over a rock on Ahch-To, there's no narrative reason for that scene to exist rather than just having her be injured in the attack run. It's there purely for spectacle, as much style over substance as the overchoreographed fights in the prequel trilogy.

To your last paragraph, I'm admittedly uncertain what you're talking about with regards to the pedigreed badass vs backwoods yokel bit. Do you mean the spectacle of Luke vs. Kylo or how Snoke lampshaded Kylo vs Rey in the first movie and then we never spoke of it again, or is it something else that's slipping my mind?

The "cyclical system of endless war" isn't even a plot thread isn't even a plotline, it's an author filibuster. Flashy heroics vs long term effort is more discussed than developed, and errs much more towards criticizing flashy heroics than showing the virtues of playing the long game.

And to the last point of "We're going into the final story arc where the rebellion is on the backfoot but because of stories, legends, and cunning, their far more powerful enemy has lost all of its momentum"...that's exactly where we were at the end of the Force Awakens after the Starkiller base made a decapitation strike on the Republic, killing its Chancellor, its Senate, its Defense Fleet, and Republic Command in one fell swoop. That officially shifted the balance of power firmly to the First Order and turned the Resistance into the underdogs. Cue then the destruction of Starkiller base, costing the First Order its momentum.

Now for full disclosure, am I saying that the Last Jedi is a terrible movie? No. But it and its predecessor do still have more than enough writing and directorial faults to make me question the assertion that the sequel trilogy is head and shoulders above the prequel trilogy.

looks like EA is making a new star wars about a kid who survived order 66

Elvis Starburst:

That's the thing though... As crap as the prequels were, I can at least watch them feeling good knowing that it was Lucas behind it. That he was expanding Star Wars in the ways he knew and planned, and not by some mega corporation that's just crapping these movies out without much care or attention to them.

So as long as Lucas was at the helm, it didn't matter if he screwed up well-known characters and derailed the timeline of his original story? It's fine that under Lucas the prequels were filled with flashy, empty visuals and cheap attempts at nostalgia by bringing in characters from the originals in unlikely and improbable scenarios simply because he created Star Wars?
And that Disney, seemingly on the virtue of being Disney, are destined to treat the movies as mere money-makers?
Lucas didn't have a long nine movie arc planned out in intricate detail. There are plenty of stories of changes that Lucas kept making to the original movies (Bobba Fett being Luke's uncle, a cast of midgets, Luke being Dirk Starkiller etc.) and even inconsistencies between movies- Leia making out with Luke in Empire then claiming she always knew he was her brother in Return and Leia saying she remembered her mother in Return but having Padme die right after the twins were born in
Revenge

Asita:

To perhaps explain this a little better, the problem is the persistent pointlessness of the bait and switch. In the case of Luke vs Kylo, for instance, there is literally no point in Luke not actually being there.

Other than Luke most likely would have been vaporized by the extended barrage from the First Order walkers. Luke pulling the Force Projection allowed him to survive the barrage and make a dramatic exit from the planet. According to the First Order Luke just appeared out of nowhere, tanked nearly a minute of heavy laser cannon blasts, made a fool of the new Supreme Leader then vanished/teleported away. For all they know, Luke came show up anywhere at any time and wreck the First Order's plans.

Kylo could have never killed him in the first place, and Luke caps the fight off by implying that this isn't the last they'll see of each other...and then one minute and thirty seconds later he dies anyway, which completely undermines the point of the twist. It's an arbitrary twist that's purely there for the sake of twisting. There is no functional difference between Luke dying at Kylo's hand and being killed by the technique he used to trick Kylo into thinking he could kill him.

Put a different way, let's try to sum this scene up for anyone watching Episode IX without watching Episode VIII. "Wait, Luke's dead?" "Yeah, he died after fighting Kylo Ren in the last movie." "Kylo killed him?" "No" "So he didn't die because of the fight?" "Well, no, it was definitely due to what happened in the fight" "...Huh?" "See, when Kylo struck the killing blow we learned that Luke wasn't really there, but the technique he was using to pretend to be there killed him anyways." It's a pointless distinction.

Luke didn't exactly die, he became one with the Force and his physical body faded away. It's like when characters ascend to a higher plane.

twistedmic:

So as long as Lucas was at the helm, it didn't matter if he screwed up well-known characters and derailed the timeline of his original story? It's fine that under Lucas the prequels were filled with flashy, empty visuals and cheap attempts at nostalgia by bringing in characters from the originals in unlikely and improbable scenarios simply because he created Star Wars?

To me personally, pretty much, yeah. I liked Lucas' Star Wars more than I like Disney's, simply put.

And that Disney, seemingly on the virtue of being Disney, are destined to treat the movies as mere money-makers?

Whatever their reasons are for handling the property as they are, if merely for profit or with actual care for the franchise... I just don't like how it's turned out so far.

Lucas didn't have a long nine movie arc planned out in intricate detail. There are plenty of stories of changes that Lucas kept making to the original movies (Bobba Fett being Luke's uncle, a cast of midgets, Luke being Dirk Starkiller etc.) and even inconsistencies between movies- Leia making out with Luke in Empire then claiming she always knew he was her brother in Return and Leia saying she remembered her mother in Return but having Padme die right after the twins were born in Revenge

Inconsistencies happen. I'm not saying any of his movies are perfect in comparison to Disney's. All I'm saying is that I get a lot more enjoyment out of Lucas' Star Wars, including the prequels... rather than deal with the extremely unlikable Mary Sue Rey, a ship commander that does shit all till the end of the movie with a thing she could've done sooner, an entire movie that just flat out goes nowhere at all (At least Episode 1 & 2 set things up), and antagonists that aren't handled well or are just cut off at the knees after the buildup.

There's a lot of things I like that came out of the original trilogy, and even the prequels. So far, very little has come out from the sequel trilogy that I like. But that's all subjective and personal opinion. It all just doesn't feel right to me at all. It's why I prefer Lucas' works, flawed as they may be

That's a really uninspired trailer. I liked the part where the dude was fixing Darth Whatever's helmet for some reason, that looked kind of neat. Not a SW fan anyway, but I'll probably watch the RLM review.

twistedmic:

Asita:

To perhaps explain this a little better, the problem is the persistent pointlessness of the bait and switch. In the case of Luke vs Kylo, for instance, there is literally no point in Luke not actually being there.

Other than Luke most likely would have been vaporized by the extended barrage from the First Order walkers. Luke pulling the Force Projection allowed him to survive the barrage and make a dramatic exit from the planet. According to the First Order Luke just appeared out of nowhere, tanked nearly a minute of heavy laser cannon blasts, made a fool of the new Supreme Leader then vanished/teleported away. For all they know, Luke came show up anywhere at any time and wreck the First Order's plans.

And again, that's spectacle with no narrative purpose behind it.

I feel like we're looking at it in different senses here. You seem to be looking at it in the context of the scene; how not being there justified other bits of action that they did in that scene. I am looking at it in the context of the rest of the story. So, for instance, if we were looking at Luke fighting Vader in Return of the Jedi, the question I'm asking isn't why Luke starts fighting Vader (the Emperor's taunting that Luke's friends would all die finally hit home and he lashed out in anger), but what the fight means for the story itself (it's the culmination of his struggle over his relationship to Vader and the final temptation to turn to the Dark Side as his father did). So when I'm looking at Luke projecting himself, my question is "why did the story need this scene to happen?" And the answer I come up with is that it didn't.

Luke didn't exactly die, he became one with the Force and his physical body faded away. It's like when characters ascend to a higher plane.

Same difference. This is not something that happens independently of death, it happens in conjunction with it.

Asita:

And again, that's spectacle with no narrative purpose behind it.

I feel like we're looking at it in different senses here. You seem to be looking at it in the context of the scene; how not being there justified other bits of action that they did in that scene. I am looking at it in the context of the rest of the story. So, for instance, if we were looking at Luke fighting Vader in Return of the Jedi, the question I'm asking isn't why Luke starts fighting Vader (the Emperor's taunting that Luke's friends would all die finally hit home and he lashed out in anger), but what the fight means for the story itself (it's the culmination of his struggle over his relationship to Vader and the final temptation to turn to the Dark Side as his father did). So when I'm looking at Luke projecting himself, my question is "why did the story need this scene to happen?" And the answer I come up with is that it didn't.

The former hero, after believing his own hype and fucking things things up royally because of it, embraces his power to become a Legend. Thought that was pretty clear, honestly

Not much of a legend if they watch him die/there's a corpse

Asita:
... the second was a giant chase scene which starts and ends with the Resistance just barely escaping the First Order

Ah.... What do you think Empire Strikes Back was. The whole second act was a bunch of characters needing to be sidelined so Luke can do some training. IN A GIANT SPACE CHASE. FOR MOST OF THE MOVIE. That TLJ space chase was directly lifted from Empire, including have issues with the Hyperdrive. It was bad because it was bad in Empire. It's place holding characters while someone goes and trains.

and with the characters ultimately ending up in the same point in their development that they were at the end of the previous movie. It's a lot of fluff that didn't actually serve a purpose outside of giving us something else to look at other than Rey trying to convince Luke to train her, and even that subplot ended up going almost nowhere as Luke stops training her within minutes of starting. This is actually a bit of a persistent problem within the film, it sets up and twists things to absolutely no effect.

Just Fluff? Po get some big lessons on being a leader, Rey learnt that her past/ lineage doesn't define her. Ren became a leader even though his opponent could mind read. Flynn... learnt nothing, I think. Maybe don't trust strangers. (I will hold off till the third movie to see if these developments actually mean anything.)

Luke is still the same impulsive kid as he ever was and it cost him an arm. The character growth magically happened between Empire and Jedi. You could say losing the arm was the inciting incident but you didn't get to see him grow. None of the other characters learnt anything because they were busy on a GIANT SPACE CHASE for 3/4 of a movie.

Wintermute:
That's a really uninspired trailer. I liked the part where the dude was fixing Darth Whatever's helmet for some reason, that looked kind of neat. Not a SW fan anyway, but I'll probably watch the RLM review.

Red Letter Media are know-nothing-know-it-all assholes who think they're better than everybody else, because they act like their opinions are facts. They can't take criticism. You can have them, but fuck those guys.

CoCage:

Red Letter Media are know-nothing-know-it-all assholes who think they're better than everybody else, because they act like their opinions are facts. They can't take criticism. You can have them, but fuck those guys.

Never seen that. Where did that happen?

trunkage:

Asita:
... the second was a giant chase scene which starts and ends with the Resistance just barely escaping the First Order

Ah.... What do you think Empire Strikes Back was. The whole second act was a bunch of characters needing to be sidelined so Luke can do some training. IN A GIANT SPACE CHASE. FOR MOST OF THE MOVIE. That TLJ space chase was directly lifted from Empire, including have issues with the Hyperdrive. It was bad because it was bad in Empire. It's place holding characters while someone goes and trains.

Respectfully, you're stretching to make that claim. Empire Strikes Back had a chase scene from Hoth to hiding in the Asteroid field, at which point the chase was interrupted and the Falcon got a reprieve to make repairs. The chase ended in full with the Star Destroyers going to hyperspace and the Falcon flying off to Bespin. Conversely, The Last Jedi has a chase sequence that starts with the Resistance's ill-fated bombing run, and that chase is uninterrupted until Holdo's sacrifice. The siege of Crait happens immediately after this, and lasts for the rest of the film. There's a severe difference in structure stemming from the fact that while one can broadly say that the Falcon's crew was being chased for a good part of Empire Strikes Back (though certainly not most of the movie), it's done through a series of events whereas the chase in the Last Jedi is explicitly a single uninterrupted sequence.

and with the characters ultimately ending up in the same point in their development that they were at the end of the previous movie. It's a lot of fluff that didn't actually serve a purpose outside of giving us something else to look at other than Rey trying to convince Luke to train her, and even that subplot ended up going almost nowhere as Luke stops training her within minutes of starting. This is actually a bit of a persistent problem within the film, it sets up and twists things to absolutely no effect.

Just Fluff? Po get some big lessons on being a leader, Rey learnt that her past/ lineage doesn't define her. Ren became a leader even though his opponent could mind read. Flynn... learnt nothing, I think. Maybe don't trust strangers. (I will hold off till the third movie to see if these developments actually mean anything.)

Poe's development is entirely self-contained in the movie, as it revolves entirely on a flaw introduced in the first few minutes of the film and ultimately ends with his character becoming - by all appearances - the same as he was at the end of the Force Awakens. Granted, however, this one was perhaps unavoidable, as Poe surviving the crash at the start of TFA was actually a late rewrite, so he was fairly undeveloped character in the first movie.

Rey is actually a very interesting point for entirely the wrong reasons. Truth be told it's a bit of a writing flub, as the big revelation ended up forgetting what it was that Rey and the audience wanted with regards to her parentage. The audience was speculating that she had some special lineage. Rey just wanted her family to come back for her. But the big reveal is about her coming to terms that her parents were nobody of consequence, which isn't something she cared about. And coming to terms with the fact that her family wasn't coming back for her was a repeat of what she learned in the first movie. Furthermore, she never let her past define her in the first place. If she had, she would have still been trying to return to Jakku and wouldn't have been trying to get Luke to give her Jedi training, and she wouldn't have believed that she could turn Kylo Ren back to the light.

Kylo Ren was already bossing everyone around in the first film, and was for all intents and purposes Snoke's second in command.

Finn was another repeat of his arc in the first film (which is a shame, because while I think he had - hands down - the best character development in TFA, the next movie seeing him try to run away again as if he'd learned nothing is irritating).

Luke is still the same impulsive kid as he ever was and it cost him an arm. The character growth magically happened between Empire and Jedi. You could say losing the arm was the inciting incident but you didn't get to see him grow. None of the other characters learnt anything because they were busy on a GIANT SPACE CHASE for 3/4 of a movie.

Except for the budding romance of Han and Leia, the recruitment of Lando, Han being shipped to Jabba, the development of parallels between Luke and Vader coinciding with the Emperor and Vader planning to turn Luke to the Dark Side and culminating in the revelation that Vader was actually Luke's father...if you don't know about those developments before going to see Return of the Jedi, you're going to be playing catchup for a good chunk of it.

Kwak:

CoCage:

Red Letter Media are know-nothing-know-it-all assholes who think they're better than everybody else, because they act like their opinions are facts. They can't take criticism. You can have them, but fuck those guys.

Never seen that. Where did that happen?

Look at any of their recent Star War reviews of Rouge One and TLJ and you'll see what I'm talking about. They also have contempt for nerd culture as a whole. Especially the Star Wars fandom. In their videos, they act smug as fuck without having to back up much. I don't keep with their content, because I have no respect for anyone on the staff and I won't support people who go out of their way to insult other fandoms; regardless if they "deserved" it or not. It's one thing to not like something, it's another where you think you're better than certain groups due liking/disliking whatever the opposite opinion is. RLM is the friend annoyance no ones likes, and nobody want to be within 50 ft of. Well for me anyway.

trunkage:
Flynn... learnt nothing, I think. Maybe don't trust strangers.

Finn finds a reason to fight besides "so I can elope with my bestest bud/crush Rey". In fact, Rose Tico, for all the hate she gets, is intended to be a role model for Finn, someone who is out of her league (just like Finn feels) but who chooses to put herself at risk for the cause she believes in. It is by interacting with her, realizing the injustices of First Order rule (as exemplified by the luxury of Canto Bight and its arms traders) and later by being betrayed by the locksmith that Finn comes to understand that he must make a stand with the Resistance. This is even lampshaded when Rose kisses Finn and he rebukes her, because he's not fighting for her (as he fought for Rey in TFA), he's fighting because he wants the First Order to fail.

Asita:

Respectfully, you're stretching to make that claim. Empire Strikes Back had a chase scene from Hoth to hiding in the Asteroid field, at which point the chase was interrupted and the Falcon got a reprieve to make repairs. The chase ended in full with the Star Destroyers going to hyperspace and the Falcon flying off to Bespin.

The chase, technically, ends when Darth Vader shows up in the Bespin dining room and the protagonists realize that they've been caught. There's a lull in the chase at some points (the asteroid, the trick to fool the star destroyers), but the Empire always picks up the trail and continues the chase. The fact that the Star Destroyers end up chasing the Falcon again after the asteroid field and has Han resorting to docking on the side of one of the SDs to throw them off shows that the chase was still on. Then we see Boba Fett fly after the Falcon when it leaves the Star Destroyer and it is a clear implication that the chase wasn't over. It just isn't a high octane outrunning big guns chase anymore.

CoCage:

Kwak:

CoCage:

Red Letter Media are know-nothing-know-it-all assholes who think they're better than everybody else, because they act like their opinions are facts. They can't take criticism. You can have them, but fuck those guys.

Never seen that. Where did that happen?

Look at any of their recent Star War reviews of Rouge One and TLJ and you'll see what I'm talking about. They also have contempt for nerd culture as a whole. Especially the Star Wars fandom. In their videos, they act smug as fuck without having to back up much. I don't keep with their content, because I have no respect for anyone on the staff and I won't support people who go out of their way to insult other fandoms; regardless if they "deserved" it or not. It's one thing to not like something, it's another where you think you're better than certain groups due liking/disliking whatever the opposite opinion is. RLM is the friend annoyance no ones likes, and nobody want to be within 50 ft of. Well for me anyway.

I dont know, just sounds like you're not into their particular brand of cynical schtick. I've never seen them try to pass off anything as other than just their opinion.

Anyway, speaking of, their trailer response.

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