Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . . . 15 NEXT
 

All I can say is in hindsight Episode 3 is way better then Episode 5.

Now we went from the Night King to Cersei to Dany.

I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

Goddammit. This was the best episode of the season. It also had some of the most retarded shit in the series. But there was actually quite a lot of good stuff. And also retardation. But also good. Is this what "ambivalence" means?

I was legitimately enjoying the first half an hour, Varys' extremely ungrateful end not withstanding; the super dour atmosphere, the interaction between Tyrion and Jaime, the genuinely great sense of impending doom the show managed to build. This episode more than any other proves that D&D should stick to being showrunners, and chased out of any writers' room with pitchforks and torches. Because when the show shuts the fuck up for a second and lets the director take the reins, it's actually great: The music, direction and acting all worked wonders. The fight between Euron and Jaime was wonderfully brutal and bitter. There was some delightfully meaty gore in the fight scenes. I was even impressed by Emilia Clarke's acting on the shot where she's standing on the back of her dragon with tears in her eyes, excellently conveying a character out of her depth.

The whole episode was like yo-yoing between a wonderful climax, and the fanfiction of a 12 year old. One minute I'm impressed by the atmosphere, the next I'm facepalming at the battle tactics that were written by a 5-year old. One minute I'm enjoying the brutality with which the events are depicted, the next I groan at how Arya and Sandor just walk into King's Landing without any disguises whatsoever. Every other minute I'd switch between "Oooh!" and "Aaaarrrggghhh!"

The first 30 minutes I have only one issue with (Varys' death), but let's break down the rest:
- armies park within like a 100 yards of each other, perfectly visible and within ranged weapon range. The Golden Company is hauled outside because D&D are retards who literally don't understand military tactics on even a 4-year old's level.
- Euron's armada of 360 noscoping overpowered scorpions apparently got massively nerfed in the latest patch, and pose no resistance whatsoever.
- Stone buildings literally explode from dragonfire like they're pi?atas stuffed with firecrackers and TNT. Hey, didn't we have like, a line about what can melt stone in the second season? The one that was kind of a big bit of worldbuilding? Eh, whatever, let's just have enough EXPLOSIOOOOOOOONS to make Michael Bay say "Stop, I can only get so erect!".
- Wasn't the Mountain established to be pretty much a zombie? Apparently not, since all of a sudden he just forgets that because somewhere in the distance an airhorn is blowing and the writers are 12-year olds.
- Stone structures fall over from dragonfire like they're made of matches, held together with blu-tack.
- Jaime gets stabbed twice within the abdomen with a 1,5 footlong dagger, probably puncturing several vital organs, but apparently that ain't no biggie because he just walks to Cersei no problem. Through what is undoubtedly hundreds of steps of steep stairs.
- Jaime gets released the previous night, and yet it somehow takes him the entire day to get to his destination. Which apparently includes walking into the middle of a city, then teleporting to a waterfront, and into the red keep. See, this is why establishing world geography is important.
- Apparently King's Landing in its entirety is held together with wishful thinking and what was scraped off the wet patch in the sheets the morning after, because at a point buildings just start to fall over on their own with no rhyme or reason.
- Why is Davos on the frontline leading the men? He's not a commander, hell, he's not even an officer, but... oh wait, I remember now! It's because the writers are 12 year olds.
- So apparently all it took anyway for Arya to be shaken out of her bloodlust was a pep talk from the Hound that they literally already had several seasons ago!

I'm probably already forgetting something despite having finished the show less than 40 minutes ago. Honestly I'm starting to gain a kind of respect for this season. Like, this is reaching The Room levels of badness. A perfect case study of what not to do. A once in a generation culmination of fuck-up, incompetence and boredom that should be shown in film classes to show how not to make an ending.

The ending. Oh, am I excited to see just how fucking bad this can get!

jademunky:
I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

How she got her dragons in the first place? By burning a woman who made her infertile and turned her husband into a vegetable. Dany is no stranger to burnings, but innocents are hardly her cup of tea. Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

bartholen:
Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

I don't think that's an example of "hard justice" in this case. More a case of...

Say you have three dogs. You ignore warnings that these could bite people. A dog bites a person. You lock up your other dogs because you see what dogs can do now.

Now apparently since then Dany's dragons just decided to stop eating people I guess, but while Dany's always had a megalomanaiacal, hard justice/pyrophilic streak, I wouldn't say the dragon chains are an example of it.

bartholen:

How she got her dragons in the first place? By burning a woman who made her infertile and turned her husband into a vegetable. Dany is no stranger to burnings, but innocents are hardly her cup of tea. Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

A woman who was kinda upset that everything she knew and loved were now either dead, razed or made into rape-slaves by her Attila-the-Khal-husband.

Yeah I do remember the dead child thing and I do think her horror was genuine but her decision to imprison them had more to do with her tenuous political position in Meereen. It also made her look weak to admit to people she had gathered to protect that she could not control her "children."

bartholen:

I'm probably already forgetting something despite having finished the show less than 40 minutes ago. Honestly I'm starting to gain a kind of respect for this season. Like, this is reaching The Room levels of badness. A perfect case study of what not to do. A once in a generation culmination of fuck-up, incompetence and boredom that should be shown in film classes to show how not to make an ending.

The ending. Oh, am I excited to see just how fucking bad this can get!

1. Eh. I found Episode 3 more fun then this.

2. So far Film Classes in America are doing dick all if we are still getting badly handled movies and tv? America's Education System has long since been down the shitter.

bartholen:

jademunky:
I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

How she got her dragons in the first place? By burning a woman who made her infertile and turned her husband into a vegetable. Dany is no stranger to burnings, but innocents are hardly her cup of tea. Remember how she locked up all her three dragons due to them having burned one innocent child alive?

I've always viewed Dany as a person who does the right thing for the wrong reasons and also does the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Burning King's Landing is her finally doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason.

Just letting everyone know that I have been fucking calling it since I first fully understood the plot, premise, and stacks of this show that it would have a Mass Effect 3 level of bad finale.

Especially with the Knowledge that the books were not finished yet.

okay so apparently the production fuck ups continue. In his final scene, hugging his bitchy incest sister girlfriend, Jaime, seconds before death, regrows his lost hand and is totally fine!

At this point its just funny

Silentpony:
okay so apparently the production fuck ups continue. In his final scene, hugging his bitchy incest sister girlfriend, Jaime, seconds before death, regrows his lost hand and is totally fine!

At this point its just funny

That image was apparently from an episode stills gallery, and not in the actual episode itself. At least many people on Reddit have claimed so.

But when I think about it, that could actually have been a really cool storytelling detail if presented right. Maybe show things from Cersei's perspective, delirious and jumbled from the ruin of her rule. With a pinch of magical realism to convey that what's shown may not be entirely literal it could have been a great metaphor for both Jaime's character regression, and a representation of Cersei's melancholy that at least she got to die with her brother, and the version of her brother she always loved. Hence Jaime "regrowing" his hand.

Samtemdo8:

bartholen:

I'm probably already forgetting something despite having finished the show less than 40 minutes ago. Honestly I'm starting to gain a kind of respect for this season. Like, this is reaching The Room levels of badness. A perfect case study of what not to do. A once in a generation culmination of fuck-up, incompetence and boredom that should be shown in film classes to show how not to make an ending.

The ending. Oh, am I excited to see just how fucking bad this can get!

1. Eh. I found Episode 3 more fun then this.

2. So far Film Classes in America are doing dick all if we are still getting badly handled movies and tv? America's Education System has long since been down the shitter.

Humans have been studying history for 5000 years and we still see the same mistakes repeated. I meant that GoT S8 warrants study in the same way how great famines or disasters in history are studied: not necessarily to learn something new or to prevent future ones, but to just marvel at the extent, depth, scope and scale of the calamity and wonder how such a thing ever came to being.

Man to think they held out this long overdue fight right to the very end...

Samtemdo8:
Man to think they held out this long overdue fight right to the very end...

Am I the only one that felt a Dark Souls vibe to that whole fight? Especially since Gregor is basically a hollow and the dragon overhead combined with the spire was essentially the Aerie from DS2.

Saelune:
Arya is going to kill Danny.

Jon and Danny are going to come to blows, Jon will have his moment to kill her, not take it, then Danny will get her opportunity, take too long to take it, then Arya is going to kill her.

Soldiers are terrible. Doesn't matter where from. They all turn to murdering rapists when left to it.

Tyrion's plan was dumb, like really really dumb. And I mean, wasn't the plan for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, then ring the bell and leave with Davos? He was staring at that bell for no good reason, and Jaime just like, rings it without even getting to her?

And why didn't Danny just destroy the Red Keep and Cersei? Originally it was because she was defended, but she made short work of that, so why not instead of going full evil, cause she is supposed to become the real villain, not just blow up Cersei and the Red Keep and be done with it? And no, I am not going to pass blame onto the show for that one. I do not doubt that the books are going to go similar.

I could see It going another way, Dany killing everyone who knows about Jon and that will be the end of the Starks.

Also, why didn't Varys just keeping trying to poison Dany. Coming out in the open was very Un-Varys

jademunky:

Samtemdo8:
Man to think they held out this long overdue fight right to the very end...

Am I the only one that felt a Dark Souls vibe to that whole fight? Especially since Gregor is basically a hollow and the dragon overhead combined with the spire was essentially the Aerie from DS2.

I felt a Metal Gear Rising/Devil May Cry vibe. You know, "we're not so different", two brothers etc. All it needed was some buttrock soundtrack.

Samtemdo8:
So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

There's also gonna be a show based on The Witcher. Plus, two or three spinoffs of Game of Thrones. Once it's over there'll be no shortage of shows trying to fill the void. If any of them are gonna be any good? Who knows?

I think what I struggle with is that Dany has undergone a series of horrors, scheming and abuses right from the start, and she took the courage to try to learn be a just and strong ruler building up and up.

Then she arrives at Westeros, her BFF gets beheaded and suddenly she's burning cities down. It is really credible, after all she's experienced and dealt with all these seven seasons and grown from, this suddenly tips her into mass murderer? I just think it's all terribly weak. It's not that it's impossible, but that it needs a lot of character development to plan the fall, not two episodes and killing off a character.

jademunky:
I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

The show has always shown that Dany is not averse, sometimes even quick, to deal out harsh punishments to those who act against her or who hurt innocent people. The healer in the first season betrayed her trust, killed her husband and made her infertile. Xaro Xhan tried to steal her dragons. The masters were punished for being slavers. The Khals were killed for humiliating her and trying to break her. The Tyrell's fought for an usurper and would not swear alleigance to Dany. Dany's justice is harsh, but it is not unduly harsh if you look at real ancient or medieval justice (and yes, I know this comparison no longer works for GoT even if it originally did). At the same time, she could also forgive Jorah for actively betraying her for most of her life and she spent all of Season 7 telling us how she would not hurt the innocent people of King's Landing just to get her due.

The problem is not that her harshness isn't seeded. The problem is that the show has spent seven seasons prior to season eight on showing us how she develops into a capable and fair ruler. That has literally been her arc up to and including season 7. And now she is lonely at a party, Sansa isn't completely on her team and Missandei dies so Dany turns into a monster. It is incredibly rushed character development that flies in the face of her major arc for most of the show. The irony of it is also that it could have felt much more natural if Dany had been the one to push for razing King's Landing with dragons in season 7, but since she was the one who adamantly refused to hurt innocents, it makes S8E5 feel less like character development and more like an ass pull.

bartholen:
I was legitimately enjoying the first half an hour, Varys' extremely ungrateful end not withstanding; the super dour atmosphere, the interaction between Tyrion and Jaime, the genuinely great sense of impending doom the show managed to build.

Oh yes, the show is really good at those 'calm before the storm' moments when it wants to.

- Euron's armada of 360 noscoping overpowered scorpions apparently got massively nerfed in the latest patch, and pose no resistance whatsoever.

They're as effective as the plot demands. Of course, establishing them as extremely deadly in one episode, then completely useless in the very next is still bad storytelling, but that should not come as a surprise anymore. Still, they got a few near-misses which is probably a good deal better than real life ballistae would've done.

- Stone buildings literally explode from dragonfire like they're pi?atas stuffed with firecrackers and TNT. Hey, didn't we have like, a line about what can melt stone in the second season? The one that was kind of a big bit of worldbuilding? Eh, whatever, let's just have enough EXPLOSIOOOOOOOONS to make Michael Bay say "Stop, I can only get so erect!".

Michael Bay presents ... EXPLOSIONS!!!!!!! But yeh, seems dragon fire = air-fuel explosive. Weird thing is Drogon can apparently turn that off, cuz the audience to Varys' execution did not end up extra crispy.

- So apparently all it took anyway for Arya to be shaken out of her bloodlust was a pep talk from the Hound that they literally already had several seasons ago!

Yeah, her characterization kind of flip-flops a lot.

The ending. Oh, am I excited to see just how fucking bad this can get!

Hell yeah, boi. I'm going to get tons of booze, ludicrous amounts of snack and I'm inviting all my friends to watch with me, because I fully expect the ending to be something amazing. If not, well, tons of booze.

I'm genuinely bemused by anyone who thinks villain Dany is out of character. It's like.. the first good example of actual payoff the show has done in SEASONS.

Dany has the highest indirect bodycount of ANY character in ASOIAF save arguably littlefinger. Even in the books, where her character is a lot more sympathetic, she has destroyed an entire region of the world, destroyed entire civilizations and left multiple cities as plague-ridden ruins. Dany is pretty much set up as an object lesson in the fact that "breaking the wheel" requires a lot of blood to be spilt.

Like, when is she ever characterised as a fair and just ruler? She is pretty consistently shown to be an arbitrary conqueror whose "benevolence" is motivated purely by emotional sympathy for people she identifies with (slaves, children, women). She has also been consistently characterised (particularly in the TV show) as requiring the people around her to restrain her more eccentric impulses. Her first response to almost any problem she has encountered in the show is to want to kill people or destroy something, and to not understand why she can't until someone sits her down and explains it. The point, really crudely hammered home this season, is that noone is left to do that.

Show Dany is not book Dany, although book Dany will probably go the same way if Martin ever finishes the series because the foreshadowing is still there. She was never a nice character, she was framed as a nice character because the show made you feel bad for the people she "saved" and indifferent to the people she killed. But everything was there, in fact this is the first time in a really long time that the show has actually set something up and paid it off properly.

Stop the presses everyone. I found something that proves who will end up on the Iron Throne next episode.
MASSIVE spoiler, obviously.

Pretty conclusive evidence if you ask me.

It's been suggested to me that the white horse Arya finds could be Bran warging it, coming to help his sister. Also, death rides a white horse, so it's a nice symbolic touch there and a bit of an obvious clue about what Arya's going to do next.

Gethsemani:

The problem is not that her harshness isn't seeded. The problem is that the show has spent seven seasons prior to season eight on showing us how she develops into a capable and fair ruler. That has literally been her arc up to and including season 7. And now she is lonely at a party, Sansa isn't completely on her team and Missandei dies so Dany turns into a monster. It is incredibly rushed character development that flies in the face of her major arc for most of the show. The irony of it is also that it could have felt much more natural if Dany had been the one to push for razing King's Landing with dragons in season 7, but since she was the one who adamantly refused to hurt innocents, it makes S8E5 feel less like character development and more like an ass pull.

Whilst I don't find Dani's actions especially out of character, I agree with the problem that her harshness isn't "seeded" enough in the series. This is a general problem for the whole season, they needed more episodes and the as a result the whole thing has been rushed, making it too much style over substance.

My main annoyance is with how they ended the plot arc for Jaime, aside from that it was a good episode.

evilthecat:

Dany has the highest indirect bodycount of ANY character in ASOIAF save arguably littlefinger. Even in the books, where her character is a lot more sympathetic, she has destroyed an entire region of the world, destroyed entire civilizations and left multiple cities as plague-ridden ruins. Dany is pretty much set up as an object lesson in the fact that "breaking the wheel" requires a lot of blood to be spilt.

The key word there is "requires".

She has not destroyed civilisations in the books. She has sacked cities and left them in the hands of inappropriate caretakers, only for the cities to fall once again (Astapor, Yunkai); these cities were not left as ruins, and the civilisations of Slaver's Bay are very much alive and well.

Even so, the destruction that she has brought has served some purpose, though arguably quite poorly thought out. Freeing the slaves, defending Meereen, "breaking the wheel" as you say. It was not indiscriminate, and nor was it entirely pointless, though it was frequently cruel or unwise.

This is entirely different. Entirely pointless, serving no purpose, completely indiscriminate.

I don't think it's unthinkable that the book-Daenerys could end up doing such a thing... but bloody hell, there'll be a lot more work to get there. This was 0-to-60. This was Anakin Skywalker-levels of botched descent-into-evil.

EDIT: Oops, double-post.

trunkage:

Saelune:
Arya is going to kill Danny.

Jon and Danny are going to come to blows, Jon will have his moment to kill her, not take it, then Danny will get her opportunity, take too long to take it, then Arya is going to kill her.

Soldiers are terrible. Doesn't matter where from. They all turn to murdering rapists when left to it.

Tyrion's plan was dumb, like really really dumb. And I mean, wasn't the plan for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, then ring the bell and leave with Davos? He was staring at that bell for no good reason, and Jaime just like, rings it without even getting to her?

And why didn't Danny just destroy the Red Keep and Cersei? Originally it was because she was defended, but she made short work of that, so why not instead of going full evil, cause she is supposed to become the real villain, not just blow up Cersei and the Red Keep and be done with it? And no, I am not going to pass blame onto the show for that one. I do not doubt that the books are going to go similar.

I could see It going another way, Dany killing everyone who knows about Jon and that will be the end of the Starks.

Also, why didn't Varys just keeping trying to poison Dany. Coming out in the open was very Un-Varys

I don't forsee any more Starks dying, unless they are going for an ending where no one gets the throne, in which case Jon will die.

Danny confronted Varys about his constant allegiance jumping, and he said he is 'loyal to no king, but the people'. Danny then demands he be upfront if he feels she is turning bad. Later he reminds her of that and says she is turning into a bad ruler, and she ignores his warning.

bartholen:

Silentpony:
okay so apparently the production fuck ups continue. In his final scene, hugging his bitchy incest sister girlfriend, Jaime, seconds before death, regrows his lost hand and is totally fine!

At this point its just funny

That image was apparently from an episode stills gallery, and not in the actual episode itself. At least many people on Reddit have claimed so.

But when I think about it, that could actually have been a really cool storytelling detail if presented right. Maybe show things from Cersei's perspective, delirious and jumbled from the ruin of her rule. With a pinch of magical realism to convey that what's shown may not be entirely literal it could have been a great metaphor for both Jaime's character regression, and a representation of Cersei's melancholy that at least she got to die with her brother, and the version of her brother she always loved. Hence Jaime "regrowing" his hand.

I think it would have really worked if they showed Cersi growing more and more insane over the episodes, hearing things, seeing things, etc...
Then perfect Jaime shows up, but he brought his new love Brienne with him, Cersi thinks he's betrayed her, attempts to kill Brienne with a crossbow, Jaime jumps in the way, gets show, Brienne loses it and either kills Cersi or knocks her out, and Jaime dies in Brienne's arms, his redemption complete and his arc fully realized.

Silvanus:
Even so, the destruction that she has brought has served some purpose, though arguably quite poorly thought out.

image

Silvanus:
She has not destroyed civilisations in the books. She has sacked cities and left them in the hands of inappropriate caretakers, only for the cities to fall once again (Astapor, Yunkai); these cities were not left as ruins, and the civilisations of Slaver's Bay are very much alive and well.

Dany sacked Astapor in Storm of Swords, ordering her soldiers to kill all freeborn men of the city. After this, the economy and public order collapsed and there was mass starvation. A tyrant named Cleon took control, but was later assassinated, starting a civil war between two possible successors, both of whom were ultimately killed. When Astapor was besieged by armies from Yunkai, an epidemic had broken out people were so desperate to flee the city that they allowed the besieging army in. When Quentin Martel passes through Astapor, he describes it as a literal hellscape and notes that the pyramids are still burning.

Yunkai was not left in ruins due to Dany's decision not to sack the city, and instead to press onwards for Mereen after the city surrendered. Since Yunkai later becomes the main focus point of resistance against Dany, this winds up being something she deeply regrets, leading her to threaten that she will raze the city to the ground if they attack Mereen, which of course they do.

Mereen, at the point we last saw it, is under siege by a coalition of Essoi nations Dany has pissed off. It is also locked in an internal power struggle between various factions, and also has an active insurgent movement seeking to bring down the occupation.

While Astapor has certainly come out worst, Dany's conquest has clearly been incredibly destructive to the entire region, and happened purely because she was emotionally repulsed by the slavery she saw in Astapor. Dany has never shown any problem with the concept that the end justifies the means, or that apocalyptic destruction of a society is any acceptable price to pay for supposed betterment. These are not small cities, they're probably similar in size to King's Landing given the general trend for Essoi cities to be bigger. If it's okay to sack and burn them in order to depose a tyrannical social system...

Dany never needed to be there. She never needed to do any of it. She could have followed Quaithe's advice and gone to Asshai (and probably become the eugenic super-wizard she was bred to be). The fact that she's been given an incredible opportunity to return real magic and wonder to the world, and she has completely squandered it on some pointless quest to be queen of something is the kind of mistake GRRM doesn't let characters get away with unscathed, and also the kind of senseless tragedy he seems to enjoy writing.

I don't watch GoT but here's a selfie with Jamie Lannister that I'm using now because it's the last time anybody will care.

Johnny Novgorod:
I don't watch GoT but here's a selfie with Jamie Lannister that I'm using now because it's the last time anybody will care.

He managed to keep his gold hand hidden in that one at least.

jademunky:
I really feel that those who are claiming that this is out-of-character for Dany must be newcomers to the series.

Does nobody remember the first season? How she got her dragons in the first place? (granted it was a long time ago)

Burning innocents on the altar of her ego and sense of entitlement is, and has (almost) always been, her main defining characteristic.

I don't mind what happened. But the pacing leading up to it leaves something to be desired. Among a lot of other issues like Drogon being able to just solo wipe everything out tirelessly and unassisted.

Season 8 feels very obviously rushed and feels like they are just throwing special effects at our faces and going all Michael Bay in a last ditch effort to quickly wrap everything up.

I think most people have a problem with how it happened rather than what happened.

evilthecat:

Dany sacked Astapor in Storm of Swords, ordering her soldiers to kill all freeborn men of the city. After this, the economy and public order collapsed and there was mass starvation. A tyrant named Cleon took control, but was later assassinated, starting a civil war between two possible successors, both of whom were ultimately killed. When Astapor was besieged by armies from Yunkai, an epidemic had broken out people were so desperate to flee the city that they allowed the besieging army in. When Quentin Martel passes through Astapor, he describes it as a literal hellscape and notes that the pyramids are still burning.

I'm aware of all this (although Daenerys does not order the death of all freeborn men; she says the Unsullied may kill any man wearing a Tokar, which is a symbol of wealth).

The destruction that follows under Cleon and the civil war is a result of her shoddy planning, lack of forethought, and ignorance of the area. It is not her intended result. There is obviously a difference in characterisation between this and what the show has portrayed at King's Landing.

evilthecat:

Yunkai was not left in ruins due to Dany's decision not to sack the city, and instead to press onwards for Mereen after the city surrendered. Since Yunkai later becomes the main focus point of resistance against Dany, this winds up being something she deeply regrets, leading her to threaten that she will raze the city to the ground if they attack Mereen, which of course they do.

Mereen, at the point we last saw it, is under siege by a coalition of Essoi nations Dany has pissed off. It is also locked in an internal power struggle between various factions, and also has an active insurgent movement seeking to bring down the occupation.

None of this is the intentional "destruction of an entire civilisation". In order to argue that her latest actions in the show are perfectly in line with her past characterisation, people are really stretching what happened beforehand, stripping it of all nuance and complexity.

evilthecat:

While Astapor has certainly come out worst, Dany's conquest has clearly been incredibly destructive to the entire region, and happened purely because she was emotionally repulsed by the slavery she saw in Astapor. Dany has never shown any problem with the concept that the end justifies the means, or that apocalyptic destruction of a society is any acceptable price to pay for supposed betterment. These are not small cities, they're probably similar in size to King's Landing given the general trend for Essoi cities to be bigger. If it's okay to sack and burn them in order to depose a tyrannical social system...

...Then it's also okay to sack and burn them for no discernible reason whatsoever? That's the leap Benioff & Weiss are asking us to swallow.

It's Anakin Skywalker all over again. He killed the Tusken Raiders in an emotional tizzy after they killed his mother... therefore it's perfectly in line with his character to also calmly slaughter a bunch of kids who didn't do a thing to anyone!

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

evilthecat:
Dany never needed to be there. She never needed to do any of it. She could have followed Quaithe's advice and gone to Asshai (and probably become the eugenic super-wizard she was bred to be). The fact that she's been given an incredible opportunity to return real magic and wonder to the world, and she has completely squandered it on some pointless quest to be queen of something is the kind of mistake GRRM doesn't let characters get away with unscathed, and also the kind of senseless tragedy he seems to enjoy writing.

The key word being "writing". If the story ends in the same spot in the books, GRRM will have laid a great deal more groundwork.

Silvanus:

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

Gethsemani:

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

Okay, this isn't really a specific post, but as it deals with everything up to season 8 (which I'll have to wait for on DVD), I have to disagree with, like, all of this. Like, listing Dany's actions that you list here, I can barely think of a single one you list where I got the sense that the show was trying to show Dany as being "kewl." Apart from burning the fleet in Slaver's Bay and the warlock sequence, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single moment where Dany commiting murder is entirely "isn't this cool?" Like, it's nice to see Viserys be melted, but Dany's reaction isn't normal. Xaro is a dick, but starvation isn't nice. Setting the Unsullied against their former masters has some karma to it, but the entire process is very unsettling, and is meant to let you feel uneasy (or certainly it left me uneasy).

Also, if we're bringing Arya into this, it's not a real equivalancy in my eyes. There's more of a leg to stand on if you're arguing "Arya = Badass," but her death toll is much, MUCH lower than Dany's, and everyone she kills has been targeted justice. Someone who deserves to die, or at least we're expected to be happy that they're dead. When Dany arbitrarily executes maesters, when she burns the Tarlys, even the khals, I never got the sense that I was expected to think "wow, cool." Because every time Dany's taken a life in the series up till now, with only a few exceptions, I've never been able to fully go "yeah, you go girl." Like, I really like Dany as a character, and hoped that her coin would land the other side, so to speak, but since it hasn't, I can't really claim ignorance of the warning signs being there.

Gethsemani:

Silvanus:

I know the line of character development we're supposed to accept, and it's lazy.

There's also the shows recurring problem with passing off Dany's more destructive impulses as cool, badass and inspirational. This is a show that framed Dany's killing of all the Khal's in a massive fire as a moment of great triumph, not one of great horror or even ambivalent emotions. The show that wants us to think that Dany was right to kill off all the masters in Astapor because the framing of it all is one of victory and accomplishment. The show where the showrunners made a great deal about "empowering women" and did it by letting them use violence and killing people as a shorthand for empowered.

You can't tell someone for seven seasons that it is cool to pour molten gold onto the head of your enemies, that it is radical to burn them alive, look them into empty vaults to starve to death or that powerful, inspirational people use violence and murder as empowering tools and then turn around in two episodes and try to tell us that it is actually totally signs of being a mad queen yo! D&D has botched the execution of Dany's supposed madness from the first season, simply because they've consistently failed to frame her violence as anything but righteous and cool. It is especially bad since she's not the only character who uses wanton violence to get their way, but Arya is not taken to task for making a cannibal pie of the Frey sons. Instead she gets rewarded with getting the killing blow on both Littlefinger and the Night King for exhibiting the same lack of empathy and hastiness in resorting to violence and revenge as Dany does.

As I've said, it is not that I can't see the storyline they intended for Dany. It is that they've absolutely failed to frame Dany as anything but a good, righteous person who is justified in her use of violence up until now. This is an especially bad stinker when you consider that Arya has a similar arc about violence but she continues to be framed as a really badass, empowered woman despite the utterly heinous shit she's pulled on the show.

Except those times she went right for the heads, and did not make efficient fire lines through the peasant filled streets.

With the Khals she killed all the LEADERS, and killing slavers too was justified. Oh some of them weren't as abusive to their SLAVES? So I am supposed to feel bad? Fuck that. Every slaver got what they deserved.

The difference with King's Landing is she decided to intentionally slaughter as many commonfolk as she could INSTEAD of just going to the Red Keep and torching it and Cersei with it. THAT is why it is 'suddenly not ok'. She didn't burn down all the Drothraki, just their leaders. She killed the slavers, not the slaves.

Killing evil people who do evil things is justified. Kraster, The Night King, Joffree, Tywyn and Shae, The Mountain, Walder Frey and many more were evil people who got a justified death. And now Danny deserves a justified death for her horrific actions, not for killing the Khals or slavers, but for torching the innocents of King's Landing, especially when she did not have to do that with her complete victory over Cersei's forces.

If your problem is just that people use violence and killing, even when against people who deserve it, maybe Game of Thrones is not for you?

Does anyone else think its amusing we are supposed to see the people of Kings Landing as poor victims after they've been depicted as complete scum for 8 seasons? They cheered at Ned's execution, they spat out Tyrion for saving them, knowingly enabled the Sparrows reign of terror, cheered on Cersei's victory even after she bombed them, and overall being a corrupt, dirty and riot prone sewage of a city. Even the children are rotten considering how easily they started aiding Cersei's wildfire plot.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 . . . 15 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here