Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

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Saw episode 3. At least, I think I did. Bit dark, innit? Could be I watched a recut of AvP Requiem by mistake.

It's dumb. So many points where I couldn't help but laugh at how dumb. Loved the amazing battle plan. Light cavalry in front, then artillery in the middle, then spearmen and other infantry in the rear and finally, behind the army, trenches and fortifications. Also, not deploying your flying flame-throwing tanks from the start. Genius. I think maybe dragonglass weapons have a damage bonus to undead, but also a hidden -10 penalty to INT. Dany landing Drogon in the middle of the undead army was also inspired. Guess they had to thin the numbers again to make Cersei a more credible threat, like they did in season 7.

Dany still got both her dragons tho. But I guess they'll both be dead by the end. Bronn will shoot one, probably Rhaegal, down with one of those ballistae. And I'm guessing Drogon and Eron will take out each other when Drogon chomps down on Euron, but inadvertedly impales its head on Euron's raging erection.

Arya doing a video game stealth sequence was fun tho. In my headcanon, it had Metal Gear Solid sound effects.

Best part of the episode was the music:

That piano track man...

Samtemdo8:
Was the Siege of Jerusalem in the movie Kingdom of Heaven realistic?

I think there are varying levels of believeability, and that was certainly more so than many of the set piece battles in Game of Thrones.

That being said, sieging a city like Jerusalem is a significant hurdle. That it looks as though it takes places in a single day is... not believable.

Abomination:

Samtemdo8:
Was the Siege of Jerusalem in the movie Kingdom of Heaven realistic?

I think there are varying levels of believeability, and that was certainly more so than many of the set piece battles in Game of Thrones.

That being said, sieging a city like Jerusalem is a significant hurdle. That it looks as though it takes places in a single day is... not believable.

Actually in the movie, it was clearly shown that days has passed. At the very least it looked to be roughly 3-4 day siege.

Abomination:

Samtemdo8:
Was the Siege of Jerusalem in the movie Kingdom of Heaven realistic?

I think there are varying levels of believeability, and that was certainly more so than many of the set piece battles in Game of Thrones.

That being said, sieging a city like Jerusalem is a significant hurdle. That it looks as though it takes places in a single day is... not believable.

From what I remember of the movie, it was like 3 days when they broke through the wall of Jerusalem.

Chimpzy:
...dumb...

Honestly, is this a surprise at this point in any way, shape, or form? My favorite thing to point out, though I've never mentioned it yet here, starting in season...3? onwards, is characters on the show act like the crossbow is some new, amazing, mind-blowing invention the full battlefield implications of which haven't even begun to be understood. Meanwhile everybody and their kid sister has recurve and laminate bows of some sort or another.

None of which actually pre-date the crossbow.

Arya doing a video game stealth sequence was fun tho. In my headcanon, it had Metal Gear Solid sound effects.

Glad I'm not the only one. About as realistic as a Metal Gear stealth sequence, too.

Sonmi:
I'm fully expecting Stannis to grow increasingly desperate and burn Shireen in the books as well (if Winds of Winter is ever released), but yeah, it was handled awfully in the show. If he burns his only heir, it'll be to defeat the Others, not Ramsay fucking Bolton.

I think the problem is the show wanted lots of edgy torture scenes to up the matureness so they decided to depict Theon's captivity a lot more than the books, which itself necessitated a change in Ramsey's character to actually make those scenes interesting, which then meant they had to justify it by tying Ramsey much more into the plot. So Ramsey became this big arc villain which he didn't really need to be.

That said, Stannis burning Shireen is literally foreshadowed in the first book scene in which he appears, through Sallador telling Davos the story about the forging of Lightbringer as a cautionary tale as to why being Azor Ahai reborn is probably not a great ambition.

Seriously guys, I fell in love with this track that played in the episode. Appreciate it man!!!

evilthecat:

That said, Stannis burning Shireen is literally foreshadowed in the first book scene in which he appears, through Sallador telling Davos the story about the forging of Lightbringer as a cautionary tale as to why being Azor Ahai reborn is probably not a great ambition.

Aye, but Stannis doesn't believe in the Red God.

What I expect to happen is that Melisandre will read the Pink Letter and believe Stannis dead. In order to resurrect him, she will burn Shireen, praying to bring back Azor Ahai.

...only, Stannis wasn't dead. Jon was. The sacrifice will bring Jon back (and in so doing, provide a hint that he's Azor Ahai instead).

Is it true Euron is trying to become some Lovecraftian Eldritch god in the books?

evilthecat:
I think the problem is the show wanted lots of edgy torture scenes to up the matureness so they decided to depict Theon's captivity....

Yeah, TV show Ramsay didn't make Theon rape the shit out of Sansa, like book Ramsay did Jeyne.

Or his dogs.

EDIT: Don't forget the part where he flayed Lady Hornwood's fingers and left them to fester, while locking her in a tower with no food, so that she had no recourse but to eat her own fingers to stop the pain and hunger. Not that he didn't do that to Theon too, but Theon also had the unique privilege of having his teeth pulled so that he couldn't so much chew his own fingers off, as much as gum them.

Is it true Euron is trying to become some Lovecraftian Eldritch god in the books?

Not so much "trying" as "mostly there, just needs the money shot".

Silvanus:
The sacrifice will bring Jon back (and in so doing, provide a hint that he's Azor Ahai instead).

Personally...I'd rather not it be this way. I proscribe to the theory Rhaegar was Azor Ahai, and Robert fucked everything up so royally for everyone the people of Westeros are going to be lucky to simply survive the oncoming shit storm absent prophesied heroes.

Samtemdo8:

Was the Siege of Jerusalem in the movie Kingdom of Heaven realistic?

The thing to keep in mind in most of these dramatic depictions is that in real life, a siege is just the surrounding or blockading of a static position, like a city or fortification. Not letting anything in or out. And the idea there is to deprive the defenders of new supplies, with the natural progression of either starvation, an attempted breakout (which takes them out of their defenses), or surrender.

Well prepared defenses usually included food storage and rationing, so in medieval history, most sieges last for months, or even years. Within a siege, an attack to overcome the defenses is called an assault, and assaults are what are usually depicted in movies and TV when there's talk about sieging. Naturally, assaults are something to carefully consider; they require material for overcoming the defenses, such as ladders or rams or what have you, and the defenders naturally have an overwhelming tactical advantage with their defenses even when you do have machines and materials to scale them. You also aren't likely to overwhelm the defenses in one go, so you're usually talking about multiple assaults. In general, they were a thing to avoid. You have the potential to lose a lot of men, which can result in the siege being broken. Assaults are generally only to be used when your force is overwhelming, the defenses are weak, or for one reason or another, you don't have the time for a siege.

Negotiations were also a vital part of sieges. It saves a lot of time and money to convince the defenders to surrender, and you can find lots of deals where the defending soldiers were allowed to leave in peace with their weapons just to get the thing over with. You also have the case of betrayals, paying off a defender to open up the gates and such was a common tactic.

Looked at like that, very few fictional sieges are "realistic."

SupahEwok:
Looked at like that, very few fictional sieges are "realistic."

I can remember fuck-all about the movie for all I cared about it, but historically the siege of Jerusalem was the exception that proved the rule. The siege lasted two weeks, and only the first saw open hostilities. The only result of the week's worth of sustained bombardment and repeated assaults, was pushing the Crusaders to the point Balian's strongest negotiating tactic was to simply threaten razing the city. Saladin almost certainly would have gotten better terms had he not assaulted the walls; as it was, if I remember right he didn't even get the terms he offered when he started the fucking siege.

Being that sieges were glorified negotiating tactics, honestly the most realistic siege in the show was...Riverrun. It was completely pointless and everyone involved was pissed off it had gone on way longer than it should have. Consequently, it was over within a day, with but a single casualty in the form of a geriatric committing Suicide by Lannister, once someone who wasn't a Frey (and therefore, had a fucking brain) took control of the situation.

Episode 3 was incredible. Just the visual storytelling alone was immensely atmospheric with the zombies in the snow and espescially this one scene where a skeleton was crawling up the castle wall with Jamie standing over it was really iconic. Then the beautiful image of the dragons high in the sky and finally the more intimate scenes in the corridors of the keep. Dany fighting for her life with her dragon swarmed by legions of undead and the epic fight with the blue undead dragon was also amazing. Just the amount of variety was really well done. I expected the final showdown with the white walkers to be one monotonous big battle but the opposite was true. I also thought the series would end with the Night King dead but I guess having Cersei as the final act makes more sense considering GoT has always been more about character drama. Also this hopefully leads to the much anticipated Cleganebowl. xD

Eacaraxe:
Honestly, is this a surprise at this point in any way, shape, or form?

Oh no, dumbness is expected. The fun part is now finding out how dumb things can get, and episode 3 didn't disappoint, tho it wasn't the zenith of dumbness in the show.

stroopwafel:
Episode 3 was incredible. Just the visual storytelling alone was immensely atmospheric with the zombies in the snow and espescially this one scene where a skeleton was crawling up the castle wall with Jamie standing over it was really iconic. Then the beautiful image of the dragons high in the sky and finally the more intimate scenes in the corridors of the keep. Dany fighting for her life with her dragon swarmed by legions of undead and the epic fight with the blue undead dragon was also amazing. Just the amount of variety was really well done. I expected the final showdown with the white walkers to be one monotonous big battle but the opposite was true. I also thought the series would end with the Night King dead but I guess having Cersei as the final act makes more sense considering GoT has always been more about character drama. Also this hopefully leads to the much anticipated Cleganebowl. xD

Yeah, sure. You can't say the show doesn't know how to bring the visual flair. By this point, it's arguably its biggest merit.

Reddit is dark and full of morons. The same people on the internet that are criticizing the show for being too cinematic instead of realistic in its portrayal of medieval military tactics are also criticizing the show for under-utilizing the White Walkers because they expected more cinematic moments from them. I thought that it was an obvious choice for them to stay behind since there's only a dozen of them and their entire undead army depends on their icy ass and every soldier in Winterfell is armed with one of two things that can kill them on contact. Why on Earth would they expose themselves to that?

Adam Jensen:
Reddit is dark and full of morons. The same people on the internet that are criticizing the show for being too cinematic instead of realistic in its portrayal of medieval military tactics are also criticizing the show for under-utilizing the White Walkers because they expected more cinematic moments from them. I thought that it was an obvious choice for them to stay behind since there's only a dozen of them and their entire undead army depends on their icy ass and every soldier in Winterfell is armed with one of two things that can kill them on contact. Why on Earth would they expose themselves to that?

Maybe they're just butthurt the faction made up of mindless fodder and maybe a dozen ice monsters showed more tactical acumen and general smarts than the cream of the crop of Westeros (or whatever is left of it by this point).

Chimpzy:
Maybe they're just butthurt the faction made up of mindless fodder and maybe a dozen ice monsters showed more tactical acumen and general smarts than the cream of the crop of Westeros (or whatever is left of it by this point).

So, Davos and Sam?

Well, about 25 minutes into ep3 me and my wife stopped taking it seriously. By the end we were openly mocking it. There just isn't much that works with this episode, not even on the levels that a GoT episode usually does. The darkness is the obvious culprit, as are the many weird cuts of showing close ups of people running or fighting in the same darkness, so that you never get a chance to see what's happening. The actual plot developments are pretty thin and relegated to pretty much four characters (Melisandre closes her arc, Arya gets yet another thing to do and Sansa and Tyrion are maybe sort of in love, I guess?) but the spectacle is so badly done. The tactics are so obviously moronic that the "it is cinematic" excuse doesn't work, especially not when episode then can't decide how far or near the white walkers are. Some guys try to put torches to the tar-filled moot but white walkers cut them down, so Mel casually walks up while a few Unsullied strike power poses around her and suddenly there are no white walkers between the moot and the wall, instead they are all hundreds of meters away and rushing up (despite having just pushed out the Unsullied from their position forward of the moot) so that Mel can get a tense moment of having to use her magic.

Then the white walkers somehow manages to climb the walls and are in the castle and suddenly there are Schroedinger's zombies everywhere. People fight on the walls, in the courtyards and in the side passages. But Arya is in the library and despite the fight going on outside, the white walkers in the library decide to casually stroll around so that Arya can do her Solid Snake routine. At this point, and I'm not kidding, my wife said "this is a video game" and the sudden shift from battle and massive stakes to "Arya slips around a bunch of book cases" was so jarring that I never felt that the pace of the episode recovered.

Somewhere around here there's a really cool dragon fight scene. I'll give the episode that the shots of the dragons fighting were cool. But then we're back to the ground and Beric dies (I am sure a lot of people didn't see that coming) so Arya and the Hound can run. Mel shows up with them and tells Arya that she's the chosen one and has her set off to kill the Night King. So off Arya runs for 30 minutes. Meanwhile everyone is losing the fight! And then they lose the fight! And then they lose even more! And then they lose even harder. Now, I realize that the scenes around the time NK stands up Johnny to go hang with his step-brother and up to the point NK comes to party with the Raven is probably only between 5 to 10 minutes. I realize this, but since the episode has been showing us how everyone is on the last leg for the last 15 minutes, it just murders the pacing (again) to show us how they are now losing even harder. At this point the show is pretty much vesting all hopes in the music to carry the tension, because the sheer length of time that everything is hanging precariously in the balance is so drawn out that it induces apathy.

Theon decides to be a moron and die because Bran calls him a good guy, in case any viewer out there hasn't understood that Theon's arc was about his realization that he was born a Greyjoy but raised a Stark and that he had betrayed the people he thought of as family. Bran spells it out so that you don't have to think about nuance and Theon dies. Then Arya teleports in, shanks the Night King and BAM! the overarching plot of all of GoT is resolved with a kidney stabbing. Meanwhile, Jon, the guy who has been fighting the NK's goons for the last 6 seasons, gets to shout at NKs pet undead dragon, because it'd be a shame if Jon's arc actually got a satisfactory ending when we can prop up psycho-killer Arya some more. Also the annoying ten year old Lady Mormont gets crushed by a giant and I was happy that I won't have to see yet another scene with her fucking up the theme of "medieval patriarchy is awful" by being a flagrant middle finger to Martin's actual writing.

With that recap over, I've got to say I'm disappointed. I thought that ep 2 was one of the best episodes of the last 3 seasons, even as it stumbled it still managed to tie up a lot of character work neatly. We got to see people react to each other and handle their fear and despair in different ways and it was actually pretty strong writing (mostly) backed-up by the usual top notch acting from most of the cast. Ep 3 is, without a doubt, the worst episode of GoT I've ever seen. As a climax it drags on for way too long, it does little with the characters except put them in danger (and then fails to deliver any but the most obvious deaths) and the actual ending is not shocking when you consider D&Ds raging hard-ons for "surprises" and the character of Arya, but is still a massive let down if you look at it dramathurgically.

As others have said, the big threat that's been foreshadowed since season 1 is killed off before mid-season in one episode. Left is the pretty inconsequential struggle for the Iron Throne (because it is not like Dany can just head back to Mereen or anyth- oh wait). It also feels as if the showrunners simply didn't know what to do with the white walkers. There's easily half a season worth of content that can be made from the attempts to slow them down prior to reaching Winterfell, so that proper defenses can be prepared. Not only would that have played up how dangerous the WWs are, it would have allowed for more organic threat escalation ("The wildling trap failed, the road to Winterfell is open", "I'll march the Unsullied out to delay for as long as we can!") and for the actual confrontation with the NK to be something more than just the thing that allows us to stop feeling the ending fatigue of a badly paced battle episode. To have the entire showdown with the WWs amount to one badly paced episode is a gross mishandling of the big bad of the entire show, especially when said big bad is killed off before the silly secondary threat of Pervert Jack Spa- Euron Greyjoy.

I know the show isn't over yet, but I'll consider myself proven right in my prediction that D&D would be utterly unable to actually bring GoT to a satisfying conclusion. Because they just removed the big bad prior to the mid-season episode in the silliest fashion possible (well, I suppose Sam stumble killing the NK with some sharpened dragonglass would have been sillier, but not by much).

SupahEwok:

Chimpzy:
Maybe they're just butthurt the faction made up of mindless fodder and maybe a dozen ice monsters showed more tactical acumen and general smarts than the cream of the crop of Westeros (or whatever is left of it by this point).

So, Davos and Sam?

Was kind of being sarcastic, but yeah, looking at what the good guys went with, Davos and/or Sam would've probably done as good a job commanding the battle as any of the seasoned veterans.

Gethsemani:
Also the annoying ten year old Lady Mormont gets crushed by a giant and I was happy that I won't have to see yet another scene with her fucking up the theme of "medieval patriarchy is awful" by being a flagrant middle finger to Martin's actual writing.

Doesn't Martin himself also has a sassy lady leading house Mormont? Its just that his is an old woman and this one is a little girl.

Gethsemani:
Well, about 25 minutes into ep3 me and my wife stopped taking it seriously. By the end we were openly mocking it. There just isn't much that works with this episode, not even on the levels that a GoT episode usually does. The darkness is the obvious culprit, as are the many weird cuts of showing close ups of people running or fighting in the same darkness, so that you never get a chance to see what's happening. The actual plot developments are pretty thin and relegated to pretty much four characters (Melisandre closes her arc, Arya gets yet another thing to do and Sansa and Tyrion are maybe sort of in love, I guess?) but the spectacle is so badly done. The tactics are so obviously moronic that the "it is cinematic" excuse doesn't work, especially not when episode then can't decide how far or near the white walkers are. Some guys try to put torches to the tar-filled moot but white walkers cut them down, so Mel casually walks up while a few Unsullied strike power poses around her and suddenly there are no white walkers between the moot and the wall, instead they are all hundreds of meters away and rushing up (despite having just pushed out the Unsullied from their position forward of the moot) so that Mel can get a tense moment of having to use her magic.

Then the white walkers somehow manages to climb the walls and are in the castle and suddenly there are Schroedinger's zombies everywhere. People fight on the walls, in the courtyards and in the side passages. But Arya is in the library and despite the fight going on outside, the white walkers in the library decide to casually stroll around so that Arya can do her Solid Snake routine. At this point, and I'm not kidding, my wife said "this is a video game" and the sudden shift from battle and massive stakes to "Arya slips around a bunch of book cases" was so jarring that I never felt that the pace of the episode recovered.

Somewhere around here there's a really cool dragon fight scene. I'll give the episode that the shots of the dragons fighting were cool. But then we're back to the ground and Beric dies (I am sure a lot of people didn't see that coming) so Arya and the Hound can run. Mel shows up with them and tells Arya that she's the chosen one and has her set off to kill the Night King. So off Arya runs for 30 minutes. Meanwhile everyone is losing the fight! And then they lose the fight! And then they lose even more! And then they lose even harder. Now, I realize that the scenes around the time NK stands up Johnny to go hang with his step-brother and up to the point NK comes to party with the Raven is probably only between 5 to 10 minutes. I realize this, but since the episode has been showing us how everyone is on the last leg for the last 15 minutes, it just murders the pacing (again) to show us how they are now losing even harder. At this point the show is pretty much vesting all hopes in the music to carry the tension, because the sheer length of time that everything is hanging precariously in the balance is so drawn out that it induces apathy.

Theon decides to be a moron and die because Bran calls him a good guy, in case any viewer out there hasn't understood that Theon's arc was about his realization that he was born a Greyjoy but raised a Stark and that he had betrayed the people he thought of as family. Bran spells it out so that you don't have to think about nuance and Theon dies. Then Arya teleports in, shanks the Night King and BAM! the overarching plot of all of GoT is resolved with a kidney stabbing. Meanwhile, Jon, the guy who has been fighting the NK's goons for the last 6 seasons, gets to shout at NKs pet undead dragon, because it'd be a shame if Jon's arc actually got a satisfactory ending when we can prop up psycho-killer Arya some more. Also the annoying ten year old Lady Mormont gets crushed by a giant and I was happy that I won't have to see yet another scene with her fucking up the theme of "medieval patriarchy is awful" by being a flagrant middle finger to Martin's actual writing.

With that recap over, I've got to say I'm disappointed. I thought that ep 2 was one of the best episodes of the last 3 seasons, even as it stumbled it still managed to tie up a lot of character work neatly. We got to see people react to each other and handle their fear and despair in different ways and it was actually pretty strong writing (mostly) backed-up by the usual top notch acting from most of the cast. Ep 3 is, without a doubt, the worst episode of GoT I've ever seen. As a climax it drags on for way too long, it does little with the characters except put them in danger (and then fails to deliver any but the most obvious deaths) and the actual ending is not shocking when you consider D&Ds raging hard-ons for "surprises" and the character of Arya, but is still a massive let down if you look at it dramathurgically.

As others have said, the big threat that's been foreshadowed since season 1 is killed off before mid-season in one episode. Left is the pretty inconsequential struggle for the Iron Throne (because it is not like Dany can just head back to Mereen or anyth- oh wait). It also feels as if the showrunners simply didn't know what to do with the white walkers. There's easily half a season worth of content that can be made from the attempts to slow them down prior to reaching Winterfell, so that proper defenses can be prepared. Not only would that have played up how dangerous the WWs are, it would have allowed for more organic threat escalation ("The wildling trap failed, the road to Winterfell is open", "I'll march the Unsullied out to delay for as long as we can!") and for the actual confrontation with the NK to be something more than just the thing that allows us to stop feeling the ending fatigue of a badly paced battle episode. To have the entire showdown with the WWs amount to one badly paced episode is a gross mishandling of the big bad of the entire show, especially when said big bad is killed off before the silly secondary threat of Pervert Jack Spa- Euron Greyjoy.

I know the show isn't over yet, but I'll consider myself proven right in my prediction that D&D would be utterly unable to actually bring GoT to a satisfying conclusion. Because they just removed the big bad prior to the mid-season episode in the silliest fashion possible (well, I suppose Sam stumble killing the NK with some sharpened dragonglass would have been sillier, but not by much).

1. I was hoping Jon would actually slay a Dragon.

2. Never thought you had those feeling for Lyanna "Giantsbane" Mormont.

3. I think I would not mind Arya killing the Night King if she died in the process. Night King fatally stabs her but she still manages to do that knife trick.

4. I don't mind the idea that you kill the Night King, all the zombies die, because in most fantasy depictions, its pretty much Necromancy 101. You kill the Necromancer and control over the undead is shattered. I mean in Warhammer Total War, its the Vampire Counts one weakness. So protect that Necromancer at all cost.

Eacaraxe:

Personally...I'd rather not it be this way. I proscribe to the theory Rhaegar was Azor Ahai, and Robert fucked everything up so royally for everyone the people of Westeros are going to be lucky to simply survive the oncoming shit storm absent prophesied heroes.

How does Rhaegar fit the prophecy? No shining sword, no sacrifice of his loved one, no rebirth in salt and smoke. Even Rhaegar himself believed it was his son, and not him, if the visions in the House of the Undying can be believed.

I think Martin is just waiting for the internet to write his last books for him. Once the finale happens, GRRM will finish the books and they will just so happen to 'fix' everything everyone complained about and he will pretend he intended to do that the whole time.

Samtemdo8:
3. I think I would not mind Arya killing the Night King if she died in the process. Night King fatally stabs her but she still manages to do that knife trick.

Speaking of, how did she actually get there to begin with?

Remember, Bran was surrounded by a wall of wights at least a dozen deep. Except the little corridor the Night King was walking through while his WW posse laid back and watched. Did she casually faceless man herself through the whole thing? Did she monkey through the trees (would actually approve of this)? Did getting laid give her so much balls she gained Euron's teleportation powers? Plausible. I mean, worked for Theon when he grew a pair. Or, you know, the obvious answer of "cuz its all dramatic and stuff and the writers said so"?

I know, I know. The show doesn't bother with questions like that anymore, so neither should anyone looking to keep their sanity.

Ugh... So Sam survived, didn't he? A fat coward who should've been on his knees one second and dead during the next survives. Put him in the crypt if you want him to survive, dammit. Our enemy doesn't tire but neither do the main heroes. The whole thing with Arya is just so fucking obnoxious, she even gets her own battle theme music like in the anime she belongs to.

While dark it was still a really nice-looking episode with lots of steadycam shots and a bit of video game aesthetic, I guess.

Eacaraxe:
Yeah, TV show Ramsay didn't make Theon rape the shit out of Sansa, like book Ramsay did Jeyne.

Or his dogs.

EDIT: Don't forget the part where he flayed Lady Hornwood's fingers and left them to fester, while locking her in a tower with no food, so that she had no recourse but to eat her own fingers to stop the pain and hunger. Not that he didn't do that to Theon too, but Theon also had the unique privilege of having his teeth pulled so that he couldn't so much chew his own fingers off, as much as gum them.

So, I think you missed my point.

In the books, these are implications, memories and second hand accounts. They are things you can figure out retrospectively. There is no chapter which goes into a long description about Theon being strapped to a St. Andrew's cross and having his fingers and dick flayed off with lots of gloating and banter because there doesn't need to be. We see Ramsey's sadism primarily through the effect that he has on people around him.

In the books, Theon just disappears for ages and then suddenly we have one POV chapter with Reek, and we are left to infer from how broken Reek is and the hints we get of his memories that some really fucked up shit happened in between. In the TV show, that intervening stuff is given like an hour of screen time over a whole season in a show that is already struggling to squeeze all it's important plot points into a show format. It's very clear that the show wanted more exploitation (and exploitation is not the same thing as just having sex and violence in your story) so they added this stuff and then had to justify its existence by turning Ramsey into a much more prominent character. Book Ramsey is not an interesting character, he's almost a deliberate inversion of the movie-psychopath archetype which TV show Ramsey embodies in that he's not a clever manipulating genius, he's a sadistic thug with poor impulse control.

Silvanus:
Aye, but Stannis doesn't believe in the Red God.

I think Stannis as depicted has a broadly utilitarian and proprietary attitude to religion. His attitude is basically "what do I get in return", which in many non-Christian cultures is a perfectly reasonable way to think about religion.

Whether it's actually R'hllor or Melisandre herself, following the red god works in ASOIAF. It doesn't matter if you believe, Thoros openly admits that he didn't really believe and was just paying lip service until he started raising the dead.

Hades:

Doesn't Martin himself also has a sassy lady leading house Mormont? Its just that his is an old woman and this one is a little girl.

I believe so, yes. The principal differences between Book Lady Mormont and Sassy Young Mormont (SYM) is that the former is a) a proven house leader b) the leader of a remote, poor house that everyone considers kind of weird (and who's main claim to fame in recent history is that the former leader was exiled for selling his subjects into slavery and his father had to take the black) and c) of no consequence to anyone and thus everyone largely ignores her antics, since that's just how stuff is on Bear Island. As a contrast SYM is somehow able to shame all the actual lords of importance in the North and manages to be their (or rather the writer's) mouthpiece in all important decisions somehow.

Samtemdo8:

1. I was hoping Jon would actually slay a Dragon.

2. Never thought you had those feeling for Lyanna "Giantsbane" Mormont.

3. I think I would not mind Arya killing the Night King if she died in the process. Night King fatally stabs her but she still manages to do that knife trick.

4. I don't mind the idea that you kill the Night King, all the zombies die, because in most fantasy depictions, its pretty much Necromancy 101. You kill the Necromancer and control over the undead is shattered. I mean in Warhammer Total War, its the Vampire Counts one weakness. So protect that Necromancer at all cost.

1. Me too. I was more hoping for Jon to take out the NK though.

2. I'm a book fan. As I, evilthecat and others have said on this forum before, Martin shows us how terrible medieval patriarchy is to everyone involved, it is a deliberate part of his stories and he never shies away from showing the reader how it hurts everyone. From Catelyn and Cersei who internalizes the misogyny in different ways (Cat taking a step back and leading through her son, Cersei by hating every woman around her, herself included, and trying to be a man in performance) to Jaime and Bran, who are both emasculated by their loss of combat ability and leg function and who are both written off because of that or even Jorah Mormont who goes so far in providing for his wife that he sells his subjects to slavers to live up to the ideal of a wealthy Lord. Or even Khal Drogo who dies of an infected wound because he can't even comprehend the idea that a woman could harm him, let alone kill him through guile. Dany's arc is also largely focused on how a young girl has to work harder to secure loyalty and respect then a boy would, because people assume women can't rule and how this sometimes work to her benefit because people underestimate her because of her gender (see Xharo Xan for example).

GoT started out like this but somewhere around Season 4 (was it?) they got this "empowering women" idea, and decided to implement it in the most hamfisted way possible. Lyanna is just the epitome of this weird shift from actually taking on medieval gender dynamics and the way it screws people over to a world where season 1 is rife with misogyny and season 6 has a ten year old girl with 40 soldiers to her name somehow shaming out fifty year old, male lords with thousands of soldiers and who actually carries respect. Instead of being laughed out of the room as the cute but weird little kid she should have been. For me Lyanna ruined every scene she was in because she was a constant reminder that GoT by Season 6 didn't run on any internal logic, it ran on whatever the writers thought was coolest in the moment.

4. I'm not opposed of the idea of killing the NK somehow ending the White Walkers. I'm opposed to how very rushed his demise felt. He was foreshadowed at the end of what, season 2 or 3? He's been propped up as the ultimate, world destroying antagonist since at least season 4 and when he finally gets to really let loose and start being badass he's killed off in the same episode that the the threat he poses is fully realized. It is rushed and shoddy storytelling, instead of really letting him shine as an overwhelming and nigh impossible threat to face.

I think an apt comparison would be if Thanos got all the infinity stones in Infinity War but just as he's about to snap Antman (because he's got a similar lack of relation to Thanos that Arya has to the NK) just upsized and punched his head clean off. It is a way to end the story, sure, but it is a terribly rushed and botched way to handle the antagonist you've been building for the last 6 or so years. The NK doesn't need to win, but if we are to truly accept him as an antagonist he needs to be an imminent threat for longer then one whole episode, by which end he's dead and the threat is gone.

evilthecat:

I think Stannis as depicted has a broadly utilitarian and proprietary attitude to religion. His attitude is basically "what do I get in return", which in many non-Christian cultures is a perfectly reasonable way to think about religion.

Whether it's actually R'hllor or Melisandre herself, following the red god works in ASOIAF. It doesn't matter if you believe, Thoros openly admits that he didn't really believe and was just paying lip service until he started raising the dead.

It's a little more than that. Stannis swore gods would not have his worship after his parents died. He places trust in Melisandre's power up until the Blackwater, but is quite clearly skeptical after then. It's not faith; that's my point.

Samtemdo8:
Is it true Euron is trying to become some Lovecraftian Eldritch god in the books?

We don't know what Euron is up too exactly, but he's about a thousand times more sinister. He claims he wants to woo Dany to win the Iron Throne, but could very well have more occult ambitions.

His use of his baby mamma (and his brother) as the prow of his ship was some pretty grisly stuff, and satisfied the conditions of one of the visions Dany had in the House of the Undying (Grey corpse at the prow of a ship, smiling sadly - referring to Aeron Greyjoy's body), which implies Euron will be a big deal if Martin ever finishes the damn books.

evilthecat:
So, I think you missed my point.

No, I just disagree with it. I don't believe you're putting sufficient weight in the challenges of adapting this particular brand of content from written media to audiovisual, and how that applies to the axiom "show, don't tell". This is one place in which I feel the writers weren't being hacks.

As I, evilthecat and others have said on this forum before, Martin shows us how terrible medieval patriarchy is to everyone involved, it is a deliberate part of his stories and he never shies away from showing the reader how it hurts everyone.

Fuckin' A. Jesus, I get sick of people who blow this show and its writers for how it portrayed women characters post-season 5, when the reality is any sort of real, meaningful social commentary has been stripped away and replaced by topical, social media-friendly, bite-size "you go grrl!" nonsense.

Which, thinking about it, from this point forward I will call for myself "the Eowyn effect".

Silvanus:

evilthecat:

I think Stannis as depicted has a broadly utilitarian and proprietary attitude to religion. His attitude is basically "what do I get in return", which in many non-Christian cultures is a perfectly reasonable way to think about religion.

Whether it's actually R'hllor or Melisandre herself, following the red god works in ASOIAF. It doesn't matter if you believe, Thoros openly admits that he didn't really believe and was just paying lip service until he started raising the dead.

It's a little more than that. Stannis swore gods would not have his worship after his parents died. He places trust in Melisandre's power up until the Blackwater, but is quite clearly skeptical after then. It's not faith; that's my point.

It's not faith in the traditional Abhrahamic sense, but I highly doubt that Stannis is an atheist... I think it's more likely that he believes R'hllor is real, but he will not devote himself to him.

Stannis is a man of many contradictions in any case, his approach to religion is just one more aspect of his inner duality.

I cant believe that Arya, a trained assassin with a dagger that auto-kills White Walkers could somehow manage to sneak up and kill a White Walker! And in her own home no less!

Eacaraxe:

evilthecat:
So, I think you missed my point.

No, I just disagree with it. I don't believe you're putting sufficient weight in the challenges of adapting this particular brand of content from written media to audiovisual, and how that applies to the axiom "show, don't tell". This is one place in which I feel the writers weren't being hacks.

As I, evilthecat and others have said on this forum before, Martin shows us how terrible medieval patriarchy is to everyone involved, it is a deliberate part of his stories and he never shies away from showing the reader how it hurts everyone.

Fuckin' A. Jesus, I get sick of people who blow this show and its writers for how it portrayed women characters post-season 5, when the reality is any sort of real, meaningful social commentary has been stripped away and replaced by topical, social media-friendly, bite-size "you go grrl!" nonsense.

Which, thinking about it, from this point forward I will call for myself "the Eowyn effect".

Badass men are a dime a dozen. As long as garbage like Fast and the Furious exists, people need to get over letting women be badass.

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