Game of Thrones Final Season Discussion Thread. (SPOILERS ABOUND, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED)

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This is now becoming the Fall of Troy...

CLEGANEBOWL1!!!

RIP Sandor Clegane...

Alright Dany...you have officially gone TOO FAR now.

And there is still one more episode to go...

RIP Cersei and Jaime...and I don't know how they can survive that.

Time to add Dany to your Hitlist Arya...

I think its now time we slay a Dragon....for the last time.

Yep, this pretty much was the Sacking and Razing of Troy 2.0:

1000% worth skipping Mother's Day dinner for that (sorry Mum!)

Almost makes up for how bad Season 7 was. I am ecstatic over how damn good that episode was.

I mean, I get it... just as always some of the scenes are strange.

The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

The Scorpions that could previously 360 noscope a dragon are now all completely useless?

All I want is consistency... this episode had none.

Samtemdo8:
RIP Varys.

Poor Varys. I expected more from him. Its the same with his rival little finger. Both die because their last episodes has them quite suddenly forgetting how to plot. Littlefinger dies trying to....make two teenage girls fight, and Varys masterplan was just walking up to Jon Snow and getting executed for it.

Abomination:

The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

It's not totally unreasonable: sacking cities has been the norm forever (it was still going on in WW2 at least) and they'll ignore their officers to do so. However, it would normally be more expected when a force has had to fight its way in, and their blood will be up with the stress and rage of battle. Although this motivation isn't there, it might be very hard to restrain them if they saw the rest of the army let loose to have fun and plunder.

One way or another, this episode is still just more shitty scripting and expediency.

I just don't think turning Dany into a massively bloodthirsty, civilian-murdring monster in two episodes is really doing seven and a half seasons of character development learning how to be a strong and just queen any justice at all. You can say she's always had a penchant for harshness when faced with injustice, but not to the point of indiscriminate slaughter. Oh, but "Targaryen madness", sure, that explains everything then. The Jaime Lannister arc seems to me like a screw-up, too for similar reason. All that time dwelling on honour and good conduct, his disgust at his sister's rule, and last couple of episodes just suddenly junks it in at the end as if all those years didn't happen. Cleganebowl was always going to be the most facile of facile crowd-pleasers, and numerous major characters casually and even unconvincingly disposed of in a sort of convenient "let's quickly wrap these threads up" fashion.

Hades:
Poor Varys. I expected more from him.

Yes, schemer extraordinaire, who's skilfully kept his head whilst his plots have worked away, and then suddenly cack-handedly exposes himself and gets removed... because reasons!

Varys might be slippery, but he very much comes across as a "good guy": at many points it is expressly clear he values and has a major aim of the competent running of the realm. He's nothing like Littlefinger, who wanted power for his own sake.

Abomination:
The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

I haven't seen the episode yet, but this seems somewhat realistic. Historically , it was and still is common for even otherwise disciplined armies to go off looting, plundering, raping or wholesale massacring. Even if their commander orders his army not to, they can't generally do much about it in the moment. I guess only the Unsullied would actually stick to orders without exception, but the Northmen don't strike me as that disciplined. Loyal perhaps, but not disciplined.

The Scorpions that could previously 360 noscope a dragon are now all completely useless?

I'm assuming the Scorpions were manned by faceless mooks? If so, that's your explanation. Euron can 360 noscope dragons, because he's an important named character and so conservation of ninjutsu dictates the Scorpion basically an aimbotting death machine. But the writers would never let jobber nobidies do something that big, so 100 Scorpions are pointless fodder that graduated from the Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship and can only inconvenience an important named character.

Chimpzy:

Abomination:
The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

I haven't seen the episode yet, but this seems somewhat realistic. Historically , it was and still is common for even otherwise disciplined armies to go off looting, plundering, raping or wholesale massacring. Even if their commander orders his army not to, they can't generally do much about it in the moment. I guess only the Unsullied would actually stick to orders without exception, but the Northmen don't strike me as that disciplined. Loyal perhaps, but not disciplined.

The Scorpions that could previously 360 noscope a dragon are now all completely useless?

I'm assuming the Scorpions were manned by faceless mooks? If so, that's your explanation. Euron can 360 noscope dragons, because he's an important named character and so conservation of ninjutsu dictates the Scorpion basically an aimbotting death machine. But the writers would never let jobber nobidies do something that big, so 100 Scorpions are pointless fodder that graduated from the Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship and can only inconvenience an important named character.

King's Landing was sacked, razed, and butchered AFTER they singled that they surrendered.

Dany was probably hearing the ghost of her father saying to her "BURN THEM ALL" but if you want my theory on this, she did this to deny Jon King's Landing if he ever becomes the ruler the people want.

Cleganebowl happened and its arguably the best part of the episode.

Varys, Sandor, The Mountain, Qyburn, Jaime, Cersei, and Euron are dead.

ON THE FINAL EPISODE OF GAME OF THRONES!!!

I hope you think that was worth it Dany...

Agema:

Abomination:

The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

It's not totally unreasonable: sacking cities has been the norm forever (it was still going on in WW2 at least) and they'll ignore their officers to do so. However, it would normally be more expected when a force has had to fight its way in, and their blood will be up with the stress and rage of battle. Although this motivation isn't there, it might be very hard to restrain them if they saw the rest of the army let loose to have fun and plunder.

That's the thing though, their attack on the city was a cakewalk - and everyone had been talking about surrender, and how this is about outing the Queen and not harming the people. There was no long drawn-out siege, there was next to no suffering by the attackers, and the enemies had SURRENDERED. The buildup to the North being opposed to Danerys, not trusting her, expecting her to be like her namesake, and the North's general reverence and love for the honour of their lords is just dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Watching the Unsullied go ham would make sense, they're following Grey Worm's lead. But the Northmen would at least show... concern about attacking a surrendered enemy, let alone engaging in outright rape and pillage of a surrendered city as well.

Chimpzy:
I'm assuming the Scorpions were manned by faceless mooks? If so, that's your explanation. Euron can 360 noscope dragons, because he's an important named character and so conservation of ninjutsu dictates the Scorpion basically an aimbotting death machine. But the writers would never let jobber nobidies do something that big, so 100 Scorpions are pointless fodder that graduated from the Stormtrooper School of Marksmanship and can only inconvenience an important named character.

Thing is, it wasn't JUST Euron's scorpion that took out the second dragon. It was hit by THREE bolts out of... five? Then there was the city towers also which, in theory, should be MORE accurate and would have been alerted to the dragon attacking the fleet.

She used the sun at the start, that makes good sense, but then it just turns into open season. I'd have expected her to attack during the night over several days. The watchmen would have to light torches so they can see on the battlements while a dragon flying in the air does not require such to navigate. But no, it's just using the sun once and then... Stormtrooper aim.

Samtemdo8:
I was not aware Dragon Fire can break through Concrete Walls...

It makes you wonder why she bothers with a army at all. They did very little and probably got burnt by Dany anyway.

Also, why is the army outside of the city again?

trunkage:

Samtemdo8:
I was not aware Dragon Fire can break through Concrete Walls...

It makes you wonder why she bothers with a army at all. They did very little and probably got burnt by Dany anyway.

Also, why is the army outside of the city again?

Don't belittle the idea of having an army outside the walls to defend the city. It worked in Troy 2004:

Abomination:

The Northmen engaging in slaughter of citizens? Even openly defying Jon when he tells them to stop? I thought the North were sworn to him above all?

Northerners are probably still pissed about Ned and Robb Stark. Southerners killed the first, and were complicit in the death of the latter. So...yay for vengeance.

Agema:
-snip-

Word. I don't have much to add when it comes to the ineptitude of the writing that this last season of GoT has shown.

However, I will say that this was one of those episodes that shows just how good everyone else involved with GoT, that isn't the writers and showrunners, are. The sheer spectacle is impressive, the actors (except Kit "One Look" Harrington) delivers brilliant performances, the camera crews and cinematographers provide shot after shot that just nails it and the score is as great as ever. It is a terrible shame that all this film making excellence is wasted on delivering a story that's so poorly told and executed.

So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Samtemdo8:
So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:
So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

Samtemdo8:

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:
So....your move Amazon's Lord of the Rings.

You fuck up its all over for Fantasy in Film and Television.

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

I'm asking the same question, but how's that relevant? There's more than enough for one genre. Superhero films haven't sunk GoT.

Abomination:
That's the thing though, their attack on the city was a cakewalk - and everyone had been talking about surrender, and how this is about outing the Queen and not harming the people. There was no long drawn-out siege, there was next to no suffering by the attackers, and the enemies had SURRENDERED. The buildup to the North being opposed to Danerys, not trusting her, expecting her to be like her namesake, and the North's general reverence and love for the honour of their lords is just dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Watching the Unsullied go ham would make sense, they're following Grey Worm's lead. But the Northmen would at least show... concern about attacking a surrendered enemy, let alone engaging in outright rape and pillage of a surrendered city as well.

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

Agema:

Abomination:
That's the thing though, their attack on the city was a cakewalk - and everyone had been talking about surrender, and how this is about outing the Queen and not harming the people. There was no long drawn-out siege, there was next to no suffering by the attackers, and the enemies had SURRENDERED. The buildup to the North being opposed to Danerys, not trusting her, expecting her to be like her namesake, and the North's general reverence and love for the honour of their lords is just dropped like a sack of potatoes.

Watching the Unsullied go ham would make sense, they're following Grey Worm's lead. But the Northmen would at least show... concern about attacking a surrendered enemy, let alone engaging in outright rape and pillage of a surrendered city as well.

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

At this point using real life occurrences and practices to discuss GoT is largely pointless. This is the show that resolved two sieges in three episodes with neither siege involving any use of siege weapons by the attackers (though one had the defenders put their siege weapons as their frontline outside the walls). It is the show which made a great deal of the coming winter last season, played it up as a logistical problem for the first two episodes of this season and then promptly ignored it to get on with the battle for King's Landing, without even lip service paid to handwave it away. It is the show which last season saw Euron's fleet be in two places at once, despite them being separated by a continent (the east coast of Dorne and the coast outside Casterly Rock) while Euron himself managed to be in both places while also stopping to check-in on King's Landing. The show that had the Unsullied somehow walk across Westeros in what amounts to maybe a week or two tops after being "stranded" at Casterly Rock. The show in which a day's walk from the Wall could be covered by a running guy in a few hours, after which a Raven went supersonic and Dany could show up at most 10 hours later on her Intercontinental Ballistic Dragon from Dragonstone, despite Dragonstone previously having been at least a month's ride away from Winterfell, not to mention the wall.

GoT at this point is more concerned with spectacle and dramatic contrivance then it is with internal consistency or logic. If it makes for a better scene to have Northmen pillaging and openly trying to kill their own King/Warden/Bestest Leader in Westeros for trying to stop them, it will happen. Just as Varys, the guy who went deep undercover for 30 years in the most vicious court in all the lands, somehow makes basic mistakes and gets ratted out before even getting a basic plot to dispose Dany off the ground.

Hawki:

Samtemdo8:

Hawki:

Um...how?

What, if LotR fails, it's all over for the genre?

Superheroes are still dominating the Film Zeitgeist among Geek Culture at the moment.

I'm asking the same question, but how's that relevant? There's more than enough for one genre. Superhero films haven't sunk GoT.

Ah I don;t know maybe I am rambling. I am just hoping Amazon's Lord of the Rings doesn't suck. And they are not helping with the showrunners of their choice. Like former writers for Star Trek Beyond of all things :P

Samtemdo8:
King's Landing was sacked, razed, and butchered AFTER they singled that they surrendered.

Yes, that's pretty much how it usually went down in real life. If the defenses failed and the attacker got into the city, the defender would often time not surrend and every capable man, woman and child would fight tooth and nail in the street in a desperate attempt to drive them off.

Because they knew that if the enemy gets inside, getting sacked was basically guaranteed. Surrender or not. Oftentimes, it would still happen if the defender surrendered before it got to that point.

Agema:

I agree it's not ideal: sacking tends to be associated with having to take a position by force, rather than the opponents standing down. However, I would argue that looting was institutionally ingrained in armies and the history of warfare would suggest armies could treat a city harshly anyway, even if it surrendered. If your queen is burning the place down and your allies are sacking it, you might be forgiven for thinking there's a sack going on, so get in there. It's also a stretch to assume the Northmen are that honourable and respectful. The nobles seemed to me (Karstarks, Umbers, Boltons, etc.) as much a bunch of backstabbers when it suited them, I can't see the populace being so magically respectful.

I'm inclined to agree. The North's reputation for being honorable might just be in comparison with the rest of Westeros i.e. honorable by their medieval standards. Only the Starks themselves seem to actually walk the talk. The other notable Northern houses not so much. Not the Karstarks. Certainly not the Boltons.

You also need to keep in mind that the Westerosi idea of "honorable" probably isn't the same as our modern understanding of it. Because it wasn't in real ancient and medieval times, and that seems like a thing GRRM would have done the research on. Early seasons at least seemed to adhere to a more medieval form of honor, tho that got flanderized, particularly in Jon Snow.

Very cool episode. Given last episode it was kind of expected Dany would go berserk but never expected it would be this brutal by deliberately toasting women and children after killing the already surrendered Lannister army. I guess she just couldn't escape her family's curse. Cleganebowl was fantastic as well with the burning city underneath. The dragon spitting fire on one of those castle walls reminded me a lot of Dark Souls 3, espescially the time of day and Lothric already looking a lot like King's Landing. Totally geeked out at that xD Absolutely gorgeous stuff. Bummed it's almost over.

Agema:
I just don't think turning Dany into a massively bloodthirsty, civilian-murdring monster in two episodes is really doing seven and a half seasons of character development learning how to be a strong and just queen any justice at all.

"Thirteen, when my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me and destroy those who have wronged me! We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground! Turn us away, and we will burn you first."

-Daenerys, "Garden of Bones", episode 4, season 2.

"I will crucify the masters, I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt. That is the plan."

-Daenerys, "Battle of the Bastards, episode 9, season 6

Literally five seasons of Daenerys wanting to raze entire cities only to be talked down by her closest confidants. Finally, she has the opportunity to actually do it and no one to talk her down. You're surprised by the outcome? What exactly did you think would happen if at any point previous she had done it?

You can talk about how D&D fucked the execution of this, and I'll agree. But that she did it in and of itself was the most telegraphed and foreshadowed event in the entire series. This was Daenerys' endgame, and it always was.

"Oh, but Dany was learning to be a kind and wise ruler who would never, ever do that sort of thing!" Oh, bullshit. The entire series is a paean to how elites justify sociopathic behavior by claiming noblesse oblige, charity, or benevolence. The idea Dany was somehow different is delusion.

Even the Tyrells, the most openly beneficent of all Great Houses, simply weaponized the smallfolks' sentiment to achieve their own ends. Put to it, the Tyrells loathe the smallfolk just like every other noble, and as if that wasn't evident by the Tyrells' cutting off food shipments to King's Landing over the Faith Militant, it certainly was by the time Olenna advised Dany to directly attack King's Landing.

I'm surprised people are surprised at the northerners joining the looting. They were already seen hanging Riverland girls all the way back in season 3.

The last 10 minutes were good. The steadycam shots, even if clouds of dust are used to hide cuts are impressive and there is some good ol' Quo Vadis (burning of Rome) vibe in there.

But hey, we also have a dumbass chicken fight between Euronics and Jaime that had me burst out laughing. Awful green screens here and there. Physics-breaking dragonfire. "Her dragons are vulnerable", well apparently not. And the Golden Company was about 100 dudes in front of the gates. No archers anywhere for budget reasons?

R.I.P. Queen Cersei.

You were the best of them all along.

Saw episode 5. Quick notes. Loads of spoilers:

- Master schemer Varys spent all those seasons playing everyone, but decided to religiously go to town on himself with the idiot stick.
- Nice feels moment between Tyrion and Jaime. In fact, I'd say most of the actors brought their A game, except Kit Harrington. And Philou Asbaek, but you know, guy doesn't have anything to work with, so might not actually be his fault.
- Well, the Golden Company sure came and went. Like a bitch. So did Qyburn, for that matter. Not that I'm particularly upset about it.
- Dany said she wanted to burn cities to the ground before, but now she actually put words into action. Nice to see her finally open up and achieve her fullest potential. Well done, you crazy girl.
- Dragon fire functions like a thermobaric explosive. Michael Baysplosions! Made for entertaining visuals tho. Dubrovnik looked beautiful as always, even when going boom. Even recognized some spot from back when I visited. Points for cool and nostalgia factor.
- Cleganebowl happened. Was kind of disappointed, but that's probably because of hype. It ended they way I predicted tho, so 1 point to me, cept the points don't matter.
- Arya somehow survived being burned to a crisp, unlike the mother and child only a few meters away from her. Fine, someone needs to go ride off on Plotconvenient Horse to kill Dany anyway, or fail trying. I'm guessing the latter.

For all my gripes, I had a good time, tho it's mostly the production values carrying the show now. It might be big dumb spectacle, but few can match it, neither in bigness or dumbness.

Arya is going to kill Danny.

Jon and Danny are going to come to blows, Jon will have his moment to kill her, not take it, then Danny will get her opportunity, take too long to take it, then Arya is going to kill her.

Soldiers are terrible. Doesn't matter where from. They all turn to murdering rapists when left to it.

Tyrion's plan was dumb, like really really dumb. And I mean, wasn't the plan for Jamie to convince Cersei to surrender, then ring the bell and leave with Davos? He was staring at that bell for no good reason, and Jaime just like, rings it without even getting to her?

And why didn't Danny just destroy the Red Keep and Cersei? Originally it was because she was defended, but she made short work of that, so why not instead of going full evil, cause she is supposed to become the real villain, not just blow up Cersei and the Red Keep and be done with it? And no, I am not going to pass blame onto the show for that one. I do not doubt that the books are going to go similar.

Samtemdo8:
I was not aware Dragon Fire can break through Concrete Walls...

A) Its stone, don't think these guys have concrete, and B) dragon fire has always been noted to be innately magical, much more potent than regular fire. Remember Harrenhall? One dragon straight up melted it. Though admittedly the TV show seems to have gone from more "its super hot" to "it esplodes!"

This kind of rampant destruction honestly feels out of place for Dany. Yes, she's got a vindictive streak but she always keeps it fairly tightly focused. She crucified people when she claimed Meereen, sure, but she crucified the Masters, the group she felt were responsible for the suffering. If you hurt her then she hurts you, she doesn't take it out on everyone around you just for being around you.

Also, good luck having anyone sit on the Iron Throne now, pretty sure its at least buried if not outright destroyed

So for anyone who wants to know the spoilers for Episode 6 because they lost all interest. Here is the Reddit link, Because this episode was accurate to the recent leaks. So here's the reddit post detailing what happens in Episode 6.

A REMINDER THIS IS POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 6 SO DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bkc8xd/compilation_of_spoilers_for_got_episodes_46/

AGAIN DON'T CLICK ON IT IF YOU WANT TO BE SURPRISED AND/OR DISAPPOINTED NEXT WEEK!!!

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