So! Avengers: Endgame

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Haven't made a post on the forums since R&P got shut down (RIP R&P), but I snagged premiere tickets to see Avengers: Endgame just tonight, and hoo boy

The no-spoilers take on it is this: it is a breathtaking swan song for the original Avengers cast, a best-hits mixtape of every Marvel film to date, and a feat of narrative engineering that somehow manages to square the circle of being a sequel to Infinity War without completely nullifying Infinity War. In a lot of ways, Endgame is Infinity War's opposite; the yang to its yin, a perfect antithesis.

To be honest, you can't really spoil the plot because any random person's best guess of the plot is probably 90% accurate. But that's not important. The shining moments are in the characters, the way they interact with each other, and the way they show how they've changed over the past decade.

A significant portion of the first act is devoted to showing how the Avengers are all dealing with loss, and it does it in a surprisingly slow and subtle way. It manages to portray perfectly the helplessness that comes with actual grief - that feeling of being adrift, of everything moving forward but feeling profoundly hollow, as if the universe just folded over itself and swallowed someone close to you without leaving a trace and without asking your permission. It's a damn sight more effective than having everyone spend half an hour making sad faces.

Then it gets going into the meat of the film for the second act, and I can't spoil what happens but what was great about it was that every Avenger gets a moment to confront their own loss on personal terms, and to come to terms with it. (Except the Hulk, weirdly enough.)

Then in the third act, everything comes crashing back together in a way that would seem haphazard if it also didn't feel like fate. Everything just goes so well. It's like watching an avalanche paint the Mona Lisa. It should be chaos. It largely is chaos. But it's a beautiful, fractal chaos.

And the fanservice, dear God. The worst spoilers are actually just in the fanservice, rather than the plot beats. I'm just gonna move to the spoilers now, because I gotta put this in writing.

Alright! Now that's all out of my system. The (very few) bad points:

- Hulk, as I said above, strangely lacks a character arc or any character development. This is probably because he doesn't have his own fully-canon solo film for him to reference and resolve; it may also be because he got a lot of character development done in Ragnarok and Infinity War.

- Captain Marvel is largely unused as a character, for reasons that don't totally make sense in the narrative and which were probably due to the production not knowing for sure whether her solo film would be a hit or a miss whilst filming. Brie Larson's involvement in the film is basically to show up, do something that demonstrates that she's incredibly powerful, and then be hushed back into the wings so that the plot can continue focusing on the Avengers. She's glaringly absent from a highly significant portion of the film's narrative with no real explanation as to why she wasn't involved. (It feels like it would be handy to have someone who's basically a backup Thor.)

- The core conceit behind the narrative - which I can't detail because spoilers - ends up collapsing under its own weight in the third act in order to facilitate the big climactic fight scene. By the end of it, you're left with some glaring bits of fridge logic.

And that's basically it. Otherwise - it is basically the perfect send-off for the first generation of Marvel super-actors, and it lays out the ground for their successors with a neatness that makes it seem like destiny. It's full of moments that exist basically just so that comic book fans like me can squee over them, and it ties together plot and character elements from a huge number of different films so elegantly that you don't even notice that it's doing it until it's done. It's also a great argument in defence of its own three-hour runtime.

If you're reading this, then you were probably gonna go see it anyway, but now you can see it knowing that it's gonna be great. 10/10, would fangasm again.

I'm going to watch the premiere in a couple of hours. Excited af.

Do you think they shoe-horned Captain Marvel so they could frame her as a part of the next superhero team-up? Do you think there's going to be a next super-hero team, and that there are some good candidates from the current cast (besides the aforementioned Brie)?

I've tried to keep this spoiler free, since it's known a lot of these actors will finish their roles after this film...

TheIronRuler:

I've tried to keep this spoiler free, since it's known a lot of these actors will finish their roles after this film...

The butler did it.

I'm annoyed I can't find Captain Marvel on a streaming service, I want to see it before I see Endgame. It seems like Disney does that kinda thing. It happened with Infinity War also, I wanted to see Black Panther first and I couldn't find it on disk or on streaming before Infinity War came out so I just ended up waiting for the disk release to see it.

Worgen:
I'm annoyed I can't find Captain Marvel on a streaming service, I want to see it before I see Endgame. It seems like Disney does that kinda thing. It happened with Infinity War also, I wanted to see Black Panther first and I couldn't find it on disk or on streaming before Infinity War came out so I just ended up waiting for the disk release to see it.

CM is still in theaters. Disney isn't going to put it in any home video format as long as they can wring every last box office cent from it especially as CM still hasn't beaten Wonder Woman domestically. Some outlets are reporting that cinemas are contractually obligated to continue showing CM at least through Endgame's opening weekend.

I might actually go see this. I will probably never not feel lukewarm about this franchise as a whole but in retrospect I think I've warmed up to Infinity War enough to want to see how it ends.

Eacaraxe:

Worgen:
I'm annoyed I can't find Captain Marvel on a streaming service, I want to see it before I see Endgame. It seems like Disney does that kinda thing. It happened with Infinity War also, I wanted to see Black Panther first and I couldn't find it on disk or on streaming before Infinity War came out so I just ended up waiting for the disk release to see it.

CM is still in theaters. Disney isn't going to put it in any home video format as long as they can wring every last box office cent from it especially as CM still hasn't beaten Wonder Woman domestically. Some outlets are reporting that cinemas are contractually obligated to continue showing CM at least through Endgame's opening weekend.

The problem is that I don't really care enough to see CM in theaters. It looks fun but not really above mid tier Marvel movies. Endgame I want to see, but I feel like I need to see CM first.

Didn't read most of your post, just to be absolutely safe. I've got my tickets for tomorrow night at 11pm and I'm trying to avoid any and all spoilers. Even "spoiler-free" reviews are no-goes. But I am glad you enjoyed it and I can't wait to see it myself.

Worgen:

Eacaraxe:

Worgen:
I'm annoyed I can't find Captain Marvel on a streaming service, I want to see it before I see Endgame. It seems like Disney does that kinda thing. It happened with Infinity War also, I wanted to see Black Panther first and I couldn't find it on disk or on streaming before Infinity War came out so I just ended up waiting for the disk release to see it.

CM is still in theaters. Disney isn't going to put it in any home video format as long as they can wring every last box office cent from it especially as CM still hasn't beaten Wonder Woman domestically. Some outlets are reporting that cinemas are contractually obligated to continue showing CM at least through Endgame's opening weekend.

The problem is that I don't really care enough to see CM in theaters. It looks fun but not really above mid tier Marvel movies. Endgame I want to see, but I feel like I need to see CM first.

You probably don't really have to. The only thing you need to know is what you already knew from the context given by Infinity War's after-credits scene. From what I saw, nothing that happens in the Captain Marvel movie will have anything to do with the plot of Endgame. It's just there to establish who Captain Marvel is and her powerset.

It's a 7/10 from me. It'd probably be more if I were a fan of these movies or I cared about the characters but then you'd think that'd be the movie's job to make me care. I liked the time travel angle despite the alarmingly fanfic premise, and that the movie felt more adventure-oriented, and that it generally sidestepped the routine self-defeating smug humor for some genuinely emotional moments.

I guess I don't much care for the beginning (that's AFTER the prologue but BEFORE the movie finds its inciting incident an hour into the story) or the ending (ie. the battle scene with CG bugs I've already seen in every other Avengers climactic finale). The fanservice fell flat for me. I don't care who does what or with what weapon, none of it matters when it's most needed so it feels like pointless flexing.

Captain Marvelous:
Didn't read most of your post, just to be absolutely safe. I've got my tickets for tomorrow night at 11pm and I'm trying to avoid any and all spoilers. Even "spoiler-free" reviews are no-goes. But I am glad you enjoyed it and I can't wait to see it myself.

Worgen:

Eacaraxe:

CM is still in theaters. Disney isn't going to put it in any home video format as long as they can wring every last box office cent from it especially as CM still hasn't beaten Wonder Woman domestically. Some outlets are reporting that cinemas are contractually obligated to continue showing CM at least through Endgame's opening weekend.

The problem is that I don't really care enough to see CM in theaters. It looks fun but not really above mid tier Marvel movies. Endgame I want to see, but I feel like I need to see CM first.

You probably don't really have to. The only thing you need to know is what you already knew from the context given by Infinity War's after-credits scene. From what I saw, nothing that happens in the Captain Marvel movie will have anything to do with the plot of Endgame. It's just there to establish who Captain Marvel is and her powerset.

Yeah, considering its set in like the 80s or something I knew it wouldn't impact anything in Endgame, I mean I was shocked when Antman and Wasp referenced the end of Infinity War even though I called it early on in the movie. But I don't know the character at all and I know she shows up in Endgame.

Worgen:

Captain Marvelous:
Didn't read most of your post, just to be absolutely safe. I've got my tickets for tomorrow night at 11pm and I'm trying to avoid any and all spoilers. Even "spoiler-free" reviews are no-goes. But I am glad you enjoyed it and I can't wait to see it myself.

Worgen:

The problem is that I don't really care enough to see CM in theaters. It looks fun but not really above mid tier Marvel movies. Endgame I want to see, but I feel like I need to see CM first.

You probably don't really have to. The only thing you need to know is what you already knew from the context given by Infinity War's after-credits scene. From what I saw, nothing that happens in the Captain Marvel movie will have anything to do with the plot of Endgame. It's just there to establish who Captain Marvel is and her powerset.

Yeah, considering its set in like the 80s or something I knew it wouldn't impact anything in Endgame, I mean I was shocked when Antman and Wasp referenced the end of Infinity War even though I called it early on in the movie. But I don't know the character at all and I know she shows up in Endgame.

She's just another superhero that stands around for a couple of group shots and is singled out once during a big battle, it doesn't really matter if you recognize her or not. The plot never rests on her shoulders.

So frustrated I still have three days until I see it. I wanna see it now! Damn my fanboyism DX

Why do I feel like the mark in a "no soap, radio" joke here? We've had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where's the miasma of exhausted indifference that's surrounded these movies for so long? I'm not trying to bring anyone down; I'm genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

It's the conclusion to a long running story arc.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

It's the conclusion to a long running story arc.

But there will probably be another decade of it.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

It's the conclusion to a long running story arc.

Oh, ok (I guess.) I've never been really invested in the "story" of any of the individual films let alone the [apparent] one that links them altogether. I can't honestly say which ones I've seen and which I haven't; they all just sorta blend together in a homogenous mixture of special effects up here in my easily-amused brain; can't see this film changing that.

I don't know why, but I've just lost all interest in movies this past year. Just...I saw Infinity War, and at the time I wanted more, but now I'm like 'I don't care'

I'm sure i'd like the movie, I just can't be assed to go see it

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

Last movie "killed off" half the MCU cast so I guess that piqued curiosities for this one.

Johnny Novgorod:

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

Last movie "killed off" half the MCU cast so I guess that piqued curiosities for this one.

I feel like Marvel made a mistake with announcing so many sequels to characters that were dusted.
Like oh no! Black Panther, Spiderman and Dr. Strange are gone! Stay tuned for Black Panther 2, Spiderman 2, and Dr. Strange 2. Kinda' broke any tension they had going for them.

Interesting that this is being hailed as a character driven movie considering Infinity War characters barely had more than one line of dialogue. I'm pretty sure Captain America doesn't say more than six lines. Characterization is squished to make room for exposition and action sets. It's possible the smaller cast (at least in the first half) will allow for better characterization, but I doubt it.

I'll give bonus points to this movie too if they have that insufferable moment where every Avenger gets the better of Thanos in some small way because ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. NO, THOR AND CAPTAIN MARVEL CAN'T JUST DO THIS ALONE, THEY NEED SPY GIRL, ARROW BOY, AND SHIELD GUY

irishda:
Interesting that this is being hailed as a character driven movie considering Infinity War characters barely had more than one line of dialogue. I'm pretty sure Captain America doesn't say more than six lines. Characterization is squished to make room for exposition and action sets. It's possible the smaller cast (at least in the first half) will allow for better characterization, but I doubt it.

I'll give bonus points to this movie too if they have that insufferable moment where every Avenger gets the better of Thanos in some small way because ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. NO, THOR AND CAPTAIN MARVEL CAN'T JUST DO THIS ALONE, THEY NEED SPY GIRL, ARROW BOY, AND SHIELD GUY

It doesn't quite get to that point but yes, the final battle has its share of pointless flexing.

Silentpony:

Johnny Novgorod:

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

Last movie "killed off" half the MCU cast so I guess that piqued curiosities for this one.

I feel like Marvel made a mistake with announcing so many sequels to characters that were dusted.
Like oh no! Black Panther, Spiderman and Dr. Strange are gone! Stay tuned for Black Panther 2, Spiderman 2, and Dr. Strange 2. Kinda' broke any tension they had going for them.

I never heard a good argument for taking Infinity War's downer ending seriously, but people did anyway.

bastardofmelbourne:

This was the best moment in the movie for me. I felt like a fuckin' kid when that happened and I couldn't have been happier. I'm still excited.

What an incredible movie.

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

People are hyped for this movie for the same reasons that people like sequels and conclusions to stories in other mediums. It's not that hard to deduce once you actually give it some thought.

Possible Spoiler Question:

Samtemdo8:
Possible Spoiler Question:

Samtemdo8:
Possible Spoiler Question:

Silentpony:

Samtemdo8:
Possible Spoiler Question:

Johnny Novgorod:

Silentpony:

Samtemdo8:
Possible Spoiler Question:

Silentpony:

Johnny Novgorod:

Silentpony:

TheIronRuler:
Do you think they shoe-horned Captain Marvel so they could frame her as a part of the next superhero team-up? Do you think there's going to be a next super-hero team, and that there are some good candidates from the current cast (besides the aforementioned Brie)?

I think it was old-fashioned caution. For all of the great films the MCU has produced, the guys holding the purse-strings were pretty dedicated to the old maxim of "female protagonists don't sell tickets in action films."

They just weren't completely sure that Captain Marvel would succeed. And because they've been filming Endgame basically ever since they stopped filming Infinity War, they had to film all of Brie Larson's scenes in Endgame before they knew for sure whether she would be even worth including as a character.

Disclosure: I haven't seen Captain Marvel, because the character doesn't interest me that much and there was another Captain Marvel whose film actually looked more interesting. So I can say for sure; you don't need to see Captain Marvel to understand her role in Endgame. All you need to know is that she's from space and she's strong.

Samtemdo8:
Possible Spoiler Question:

Xprimentyl:
Why do I feel like the mark in a ?no soap, radio? joke here? We?ve had a superhero movie every 12 minutes for a decade; why the extreme hype for this one? Where?s the miasma of exhausted indifference that?s surrounded these movies for so long? I?m not trying to bring anyone down; I?m genuinely curious. Is this film supposed to be something other than super power porn?

Well, not really. "Super power porn" is a pretty accurate description. I won't dispute it.

The film doesn't accomplish any masterworks of plotting, nor does it wring out any Oscar-worthy performances from its actors. It's pure fanservice, made impressive largely because of how well-executed the fanservice is. There are some very hefty emotional beats, but they hit the hardest if you're a fan.

One spoilery example:

You would only feel anything from that scene if you were a Marvel fan who'd been paying attention since at least 2011. If you weren't, it's meaningless pap. But if you were...

Johnny Novgorod:
I never heard a good argument for taking Infinity War's downer ending seriously, but people did anyway.

Certain characters do stay dead after Endgame, and the film itself has casualties that aren't reversed.

irishda:
I'll give bonus points to this movie too if they have that insufferable moment where every Avenger gets the better of Thanos in some small way because ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE EXACTLY THE SAME. NO, THOR AND CAPTAIN MARVEL CAN'T JUST DO THIS ALONE, THEY NEED SPY GIRL, ARROW BOY, AND SHIELD GUY

That's not really what happens. Arrow boy is 100% USDA-certified badass in this film, but he never tries to punch Thanos. He just does some really fucking cool shit with a bow. (And a sword.)

As for the other two...it's spoilery.

Adam Jensen:
This was the best moment in the movie for me. I felt like a fuckin' kid when that happened and I couldn't have been happier. I'm still excited.

What an incredible movie.

I know, right?!

bastardofmelbourne:
It's pure fanservice, made impressive largely because of how well-executed the fanservice is.

And that's why it's a success. This is how you end 10 years of buildup. Fanservice is exactly what this movie needed to be.

bastardofmelbourne:
There are some very hefty emotional beats, but they hit the hardest if you're a fan.

The feels, man. The feels.

Sorry to poop the party. It's crap. Those end credits, man, almost threw up in my mouth (because it was a long movie and I had snacks but nothing to drink). So derivative, even pulls stuff from Aquaman. But Nebula in that frontier-whatever-leather(?) outfit oh damn (and there are two of them xD) and then they focus on STEVE'S ASS? Okay, some spoilerinos:

The funniest thing though? We're still playing Fortnite in 2024. And driving a slick Audi. There is a fucking Audi commercial in the middle of the film, btw. Doesn't rival the eggregious levels of Chevy in Winter Soldier, but I doubt nothing ever will.

McElroy:
Oh dear the audience. There was a woman sitting behind me actually saying "oh my god" (in English, and this is a Finnish theatre we're sitting in) every time something of note happened.

God I had a fat chick sitting in front of me that kept swaying frantically and rocking the seats around her every time Iron Man called someone a funny name.

bastardofmelbourne:

Johnny Novgorod:
I never heard a good argument for taking Infinity War's downer ending seriously, but people did anyway.

Certain characters do stay dead after Endgame, and the film itself has casualties that aren't reversed.

I count two characters from Infinity War confirmed absolutely dead by the end of Endgame, and neither of them are that big a deal. As for Endgame casualties... whatever. It's been 23 movies. About time. I would care more if contract negotiations hadn't been so blatantly transparent these past few years, and I didn't know who wants out and who wants to stay in.

McElroy:
Sorry to poop the party. It's crap. Those end credits, man, almost threw up in my mouth (because it was a long movie and I had snacks but nothing to drink). So derivative, even pulls stuff from Aquaman. But Nebula in that frontier-whatever-leather(?) outfit oh damn (and there are two of them xD) and then they focus on STEVE'S ASS? Okay, some spoilerinos:

The funniest thing though? We're still playing Fortnite in 2024. And driving a slick Audi. There is a fucking Audi commercial in the middle of the film, btw. Doesn't rival the eggregious levels of Chevy in Winter Soldier, but I doubt nothing ever will.

I mean its 5 years after half of the population vanished, I doubt people are waiting to get into the next big gaming fad.

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