So! Avengers: Endgame

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Xprimentyl:

Here Comes Tomorrow:

Trigger warning for people that like Captain Marvel.

bluegate:

Samtemdo8:

Johnny Novgorod:

God I had a fat chick sitting in front of me that kept swaying frantically and rocking the seats around her every time Iron Man called someone a funny name.

Ugh....and I never found Marvel's sense of humor that funny and always found it cringe and distracting.

"Cringe" is a verb and shouldn't be used in that way unless you're a ditzy 12 year old girl talking to her BFFs on her phone, shame on you.

Instead, try the more healthy alternative; cringeworthy.

Are you saying that cringe has become a dirty word comparable to the N word?

Samtemdo8:

bluegate:

Samtemdo8:

Ugh....and I never found Marvel's sense of humor that funny and always found it cringe and distracting.

"Cringe" is a verb and shouldn't be used in that way unless you're a ditzy 12 year old girl talking to her BFFs on her phone, shame on you.

Instead, try the more healthy alternative; cringeworthy.

Are you saying that cringe has become a dirty word comparable to the N word?

No, I'm saying that you're using a verb as if it were an adjective and that it's wrong to do so.

Correct usage;
I cringed when he told me that he watched My Little Pony.
The news of the new Netflix show made me cringe.

Incorrect usage;
I don't like that show, it's totally cringe!

Damned youngsters nowadays and their internet speak, can't even use verbs correctly! We're all heading towards Idiocracy at this point, rabble rabble rabble.

trunkage:
...it makes as much sense as any character.

Not using spoiler tags because I don't see a point as I'm not actually discussing the film's plot at this point, but I get the feeling the "less Larson alternate cut" leak/rumor is actually true. There were still reshoots right up until Captain Marvel's premiere, and a healthy number of those were apparently scheduled after the controversies over Larson's Crystal Award speech and press junket statements. Don't forget tracking for Captain Marvel's opening weekend took a massive shit in February from $160-180 million, to $100 million, before course-correcting to $140-160 million right before its premiere.

My opinion of Larson's professional conduct aside, especially since I fundamentally and completely agree with what she said about diversity in film criticism, I don't believe it's out of line to say the controversies likely inspired some degree of panic to which Disney as a corporation likely overreacted. Especially since

A. Disney as a corporation is ludicrously risk-averse, even by Hollywood standards, about its fiscal bottom line and notoriously opaque, even by Hollywood standards, about boardroom and other behind-closed-doors activities;

B. Disney is rabidly protective of its family-friendly and controversy-averse image;

C. following from points A and B, Disney has well-documented and exceedingly well-known standards of conduct and codes of behavior that could be described as borderline fascist, except there's no "borderline" about it. Much ink's been spilled already about MCU actors' contractual dietary requirements, social media restrictions, non-compete clauses, and the like so there's not much point in going off about it here.

and last;

D. Disney's already under fire and facing an uncomfortably high level of scrutiny over the fan backlash over TLJ and Solo, the latter's box office failure being a clear indicator controversy is damaging to Disney's bottom line. At the end of the day, regardless of intent of any involved party, Disney's a publicly-traded corporation which means its ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders and its ultimate goal is to maximize profit. Grouch about sexist fans all you like, it's certainly your prerogative should you wish to do so, but systemic sexism in Hollywood begins and ends in corporate offices and boardrooms. Full stop.

trunkage:

Silentpony:

Eacaraxe:

Silentpony:

Silentpony:

trunkage:

I have said for many years that Obi-wan is the absolute worst. Luke and Leia didn't know (and I do understand this more than someone going back in time.) It wasn't their fault they didn't know, it was Obi-wan's. He came back as a ghost in Empire and told Yoda about the second Skywalker BUT DIDNT WARN LUKE ABOUT THAT KISS. But then Obi-wan hid the child of Anakin Skywalker becuase he was a target BUT KEPT THE LAST NAME. Excellent job, Obi. Also, don't hide your target with the uncle of the person wanting to track him down. That would be the first place someone would look. Obi-Wan has shown that he's a complete idiot.

Eacaraxe:

trunkage:
...it makes as much sense as any character.

Not using spoiler tags because I don't see a point as I'm not actually discussing the film's plot at this point, but I get the feeling the "less Larson alternate cut" leak/rumor is actually true. There were still reshoots right up until Captain Marvel's premiere, and a healthy number of those were apparently scheduled after the controversies over Larson's Crystal Award speech and press junket statements. Don't forget tracking for Captain Marvel's opening weekend took a massive shit in February from $160-180 million, to $100 million, before course-correcting to $140-160 million right before its premiere.

My opinion of Larson's professional conduct aside, especially since I fundamentally and completely agree with what she said about diversity in film criticism, I don't believe it's out of line to say the controversies likely inspired some degree of panic to which Disney as a corporation likely overreacted. Especially since

A. Disney as a corporation is ludicrously risk-averse, even by Hollywood standards, about its fiscal bottom line and notoriously opaque, even by Hollywood standards, about boardroom and other behind-closed-doors activities;

B. Disney is rabidly protective of its family-friendly and controversy-averse image;

C. following from points A and B, Disney has well-documented and exceedingly well-known standards of conduct and codes of behavior that could be described as borderline fascist, except there's no "borderline" about it. Much ink's been spilled already about MCU actors' contractual dietary requirements, social media restrictions, non-compete clauses, and the like so there's not much point in going off about it here.

and last;

D. Disney's already under fire and facing an uncomfortably high level of scrutiny over the fan backlash over TLJ and Solo, the latter's box office failure being a clear indicator controversy is damaging to Disney's bottom line. At the end of the day, regardless of intent of any involved party, Disney's a publicly-traded corporation which means its ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders and its ultimate goal is to maximize profit. Grouch about sexist fans all you like, it's certainly your prerogative should you wish to do so, but systemic sexism in Hollywood begins and ends in corporate offices and boardrooms. Full stop.

I don't think I wanted much more of Captain Marvel in the movie, unless it was a background shot, helping kill more minions. It was the perfect amount as she isn't really an Avenger yet. But, as with everyone else, she needed to do some part so she could eventually become a member of the team.

And yes, I'd agree. The whole James Gunn things was orchestrated so he could be reinstated after the noise wound down. I also think Disney expect to create a cinematic universe with Star Wars and that hasn't panned out. They'd probably be looking for something else ramp up now. Also, a lot these love action remakes are being mainly done to up the number of movies on Disney plus next year.

trunkage:
I don't think I wanted much more of Captain Marvel in the movie, unless it was a background shot, helping kill more minions. It was the perfect amount as she isn't really an Avenger yet. But, as with everyone else, she needed to do some part so she could eventually become a member of the team.

Skipping the background nonsense and the struggle to coherently elucidate it, to me it represents a missed opportunity on Marvel's part to meaningfully kickstart Carol Danvers' personal story arc, while also providing tonal and thematic maturation to the MCU now that the Russo brothers and their favored vehicle for exploring mature themes are out, and course-correcting after bowlderizing Tony Stark's alcoholism to hell and back.

Eacaraxe:

trunkage:
...it makes as much sense as any character.

Not using spoiler tags because I don't see a point as I'm not actually discussing the film's plot at this point, but I get the feeling the "less Larson alternate cut" leak/rumor is actually true. There were still reshoots right up until Captain Marvel's premiere, and a healthy number of those were apparently scheduled after the controversies over Larson's Crystal Award speech and press junket statements. Don't forget tracking for Captain Marvel's opening weekend took a massive shit in February from $160-180 million, to $100 million, before course-correcting to $140-160 million right before its premiere.

My opinion of Larson's professional conduct aside, especially since I fundamentally and completely agree with what she said about diversity in film criticism, I don't believe it's out of line to say the controversies likely inspired some degree of panic to which Disney as a corporation likely overreacted. Especially since

A. Disney as a corporation is ludicrously risk-averse, even by Hollywood standards, about its fiscal bottom line and notoriously opaque, even by Hollywood standards, about boardroom and other behind-closed-doors activities;

B. Disney is rabidly protective of its family-friendly and controversy-averse image;

C. following from points A and B, Disney has well-documented and exceedingly well-known standards of conduct and codes of behavior that could be described as borderline fascist, except there's no "borderline" about it. Much ink's been spilled already about MCU actors' contractual dietary requirements, social media restrictions, non-compete clauses, and the like so there's not much point in going off about it here.

and last;

D. Disney's already under fire and facing an uncomfortably high level of scrutiny over the fan backlash over TLJ and Solo, the latter's box office failure being a clear indicator controversy is damaging to Disney's bottom line. At the end of the day, regardless of intent of any involved party, Disney's a publicly-traded corporation which means its ultimate responsibility is to its shareholders and its ultimate goal is to maximize profit. Grouch about sexist fans all you like, it's certainly your prerogative should you wish to do so, but systemic sexism in Hollywood begins and ends in corporate offices and boardrooms. Full stop.

Captain marvel had the same screen time as okoye. Did her actress do something to piss off fanboys too?

Let's be real here. She's in the movie about as much as the other characters that show up in big character pieces, and her powers limit her from helping in anything less than a war. She really would have been a poor choice for the middle of the movie.

Endgame was about Tony, Steve and Thor. Everything else was window dressing

Saw it today. 3 hours of my life wasted. It's now my new least favourite MCU film.

I really can't be bothered to go into detail (not yet at least, maybe in the movies thread), but the film's plot makes absolutely no sense due to its time travel mechanics, and it's dull, plodding, and above all, boring.

Course none of that matters, but gah.

Hawki:
Saw it today. 3 hours of my life wasted. It's now my new least favourite MCU film.

I really can't be bothered to go into detail (not yet at least, maybe in the movies thread), but the film's plot makes absolutely no sense due to its time travel mechanics, and it's dull, plodding, and above all, boring.

Course none of that matters, but gah.

If you're the kind of person that gets their knickers in a twist about time travel in media;

Do yourself a favor and don't overthink time travel in media, just take it at face value and enjoy whatever is being shown.

Time travel isn't real so basically any writer can think up whatever rules they like, no point in trying to make sense out of things with your own throught up rules.

bluegate:
If you're the kind of person that gets their knickers in a twist about time travel in media;

Do yourself a favor and don't overthink time travel in media, just take it at face value and enjoy whatever is being shown.

Time travel isn't real so basically any writer can think up whatever rules they like, no point in trying to make sense out of things with your own throught up rules.

Usually I'm not, but when the film makes a big deal about the rules of time travel, and then disregards those rules as the plot demands, it's hard not to notice.

When the film takes potshots at better films that used time travel as a plot point, I'm left to say that people in tesseracts shouldn't throw infinity stones.

Hawki:

bluegate:
If you're the kind of person that gets their knickers in a twist about time travel in media;

Do yourself a favor and don't overthink time travel in media, just take it at face value and enjoy whatever is being shown.

Time travel isn't real so basically any writer can think up whatever rules they like, no point in trying to make sense out of things with your own throught up rules.

Usually I'm not, but when the film makes a big deal about the rules of time travel, and then disregards those rules as the plot demands, it's hard not to notice.

When the film takes potshots at better films that used time travel as a plot point, I'm left to say that people in tesseracts shouldn't throw infinity stones.

trunkage:

I saw Endgame yesterday evening. Here's my review. As a little challenge to myself I'll be trying to go the entire review without once mentioning Zack Snyder or any movie he directed.

I have major issues with Disney as a company and the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a franchise, I think the former needs to be split up and the latter needs to end. Having gotten this out of the way I hope you all believe me I tell you that I enjoyed Avengers Endgame quite a lot. I approached its predecessor Infinity War, in retrospect, perhaps not with the good will I usually make a point of approaching movies with. Something about it rubbed me the wrong way. There was certainly an ambition there to create a sort of superhero epic, something comparable to genre giants like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, to a lesser extent even Harry Potter, I suppose, but Infinity War went about it in a way that struck me as insincere. The writing of movies like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings derives its gravitas from drawing clear parallels to ancient and biblical myths and for me a long time that was part of what defined the cinematic epic for me. Infinity War surely had a comparable sense of scale and scope to it but as far as I was concerned, the pathos just wasn't there. Maybe it was the dialogue. Where the characters of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars occasionally share dialogue that has a clear theatric, shakesperian bend to it, Marvel's costumed heroes tend to talk like sarcastic millenial hipsters. It's a world of cutting one-liners, snappy comebacks and snarky observations and always struck me as a bit insecure. A method to keep plausible deniability, to lean deeply into operatic, effects driven grandiosity and, when accused of pretention, still be able to say "What? It's just a light hearted action comedy, lighten up." There have been attempts by... other directors to commit fully to the operatic grandiosity of the genre without taking refuge in self aware humor, but the MCU has stuck confidently to its established tone which is why its more emotional moments fell flat to me. In retrospect though, I will say, I was probably too harsh on what was a mostly well constructed, occasionally creative superhero opera that, general consensus tells us, didn't fail to create the emotional response with its core audience that it didn't get from me.

So here we are, one year later, with Endgame, the second half to the Infinity duology and the conclusion to a story arc that lasted just slightly over a decade. And there's some credit to be given here, between Iron Man in 2008 and Endgame in 2019 we saw the end of the Harry Potter series, the beginning and end of the Twilight series, the beginning and end of the Hunger Games series, the beginning and end of the Hobbit series and the rise and fall of countless other franchises. The MCU, however, persisted, and maybe Endgame was as inevitable as its antagonist Thanos claims to be. And while I would have taken some pleasure in tearing it apart, in taking it down, to take petty revenge on a bloated blockbuster my commitment to sincere criticism says that I can't. Because Endgame is, even for me as a non-fan of the MCU, a good movie.

I think what makes Endgame work is that it knew that most of its major plotpoints where fairly predictable and then went out of its way to execute them in unexpected ways. We start off right where Infinity War left off, Thanos purged half of the universes population and our heroes have to cope with their own failure. The movie throws its first curveball here, Thanos is found and killed very early on, but the Infinity Stones are destroyed, half of the human population is still gone. There's a timeskip of five years and, in what is one of the movies smarter thematic ideas, the Avengers have become the equivalent of washed up celebrities. Tony Stark has retired in dignity to be a father to his daughter, Captain America joined a self help group, the Hulk takes photos with fans (And, one has to assume, probably also does conventions) and Thor, god bless Chris Hemsworth, has gone full washed up rockstar with pot belly, Z.Z. Top beard and a drinking problem. Endgame is for better or for worse, quite ready to let its main cast wallow in depression for a while, which puts it in contrast with Infinity War, which always seemed in a hurry to get from one action setpiece to the next.
As most have predicted the movie involves time travel to recover the Infinity Stones from the past. This leads to all the personal character moments, fan servicey action scenes and obligatory cameos one would expect. Though it is very impressive to see the movie pull the likes of Natalie Portman, John Favreau and, of all people, Robert Redford out of its hat. Once again there are some, mostly well executed, twists here that I'd rather not spoil but I will say that I rather enjoyed the whole second act of the movie. It was set up a lot like a heist movie through time and space, somewhat reminiscent of Inception only less complicated, less pretentious and better directed. Chances are there are lot of plotholes here for pedantic YouTube hacks like MauLer to pick apart but I had very little problems with the whole time travel sequence as an excuse for what are mostly well executed setpieces to happen.
Where the movie stumbles a little is in its last act, where the climactic battle against Thanos from the past happens. Once again the limitations of CGI are very clearly on display, character development is put on hold in favor of action and the movie seems to be going through the motions for a bit. It's competent enough but it failed to surprise, which the movie, to its credit, managed to do beforehand. It does come together again once its over and the movie is heading towards its conclusion, and I felt that it did end on a high note.

Though having quite a bit of praise for the movie, there's also some criticism. The movie sidelines a lot of the franchises newer characters to focus on its old guard one last time and as a matter of fact contrives a reason very early on to get them out of the way for most of the movie. Among them Captain Marvel. Having not seen her standalone movie I can't help but wonder what everyone's issue with her was again, as far as I can tell she's basically Superman, but as a cute blonde, which I have absolutely no issue with. Though talking about her, Endgame sure does very little to make the MCU any less of an unapologetic sausagefest, making a shot during the last battle showing a lineup of the MCU Waifu Unit in battle feel a bit hollow. I have already mentioned when talking about Infinity War that Tony Stark's character isn't nearly as charming in a post Elon Musk world as he was back in 2008 and that moving on is probably not a bad idea. Thanos is another character who gets the short end of the stick to focus on the core Avengers lineup more, which is unfortunate, because Josh Brolin's performance is once again very strong.

Overall though, I consider Endgame a success and considering how much enjoyment I got out of it, having not a lot of emotional investment in the MCU I am quite confident that fans will be very satisfied and, who knows, maybe get a bit teary eyed over it. I am very well aware that this movie is to normal people what Twin Peaks: The Return was for me and I genuinely hope it won't dissapoint them either. Make no mistake, Endgame is still an overproduced, overly long, lumbering monster of a movie but I can't bring myself to dislike it. For a spoiler, I think the moment that really tied the movie together for me was its very last scene. It shows Steve Rogers using the time machine one last time to return to the time he came from and reunite with his wife to live out the rest of his life with her. It was a very heartfelt little scene and the moment where I did realize that whoever wrote it and decided that it should end the movie has a strong grasp on theme. It ends with a literal World War 2 veteran returning home to the woman he loves. And all my cynicism towards Marvel, Disney and Hollywood in general aside, that was a beautiful note to end the movie on.

Hawki:
Saw it today. 3 hours of my life wasted. It's now my new least favourite MCU film.

I really can't be bothered to go into detail (not yet at least, maybe in the movies thread), but the film's plot makes absolutely no sense due to its time travel mechanics, and it's dull, plodding, and above all, boring.

Course none of that matters, but gah.

Hm, never felt boring to me. Everybody's different and there is nothing wrong with your opinion. I'd say biggest waste of 3 hours of life is Revenge of the Fallen and Titanic for me. Before anyone starts, the latter is not up for debate.

CoCage:

Hawki:
Saw it today. 3 hours of my life wasted. It's now my new least favourite MCU film.

I really can't be bothered to go into detail (not yet at least, maybe in the movies thread), but the film's plot makes absolutely no sense due to its time travel mechanics, and it's dull, plodding, and above all, boring.

Course none of that matters, but gah.

Hm, never felt boring to me. Everybody's different and there is nothing wrong with your opinion. I'd say biggest waste of 3 hours of life is Revenge of the Fallen and Titanic for me. Before anyone starts, the latter is not up for debate.

Is the former up for debate?

PsychedelicDiamond:

CoCage:

Hawki:
Saw it today. 3 hours of my life wasted. It's now my new least favourite MCU film.

I really can't be bothered to go into detail (not yet at least, maybe in the movies thread), but the film's plot makes absolutely no sense due to its time travel mechanics, and it's dull, plodding, and above all, boring.

Course none of that matters, but gah.

Hm, never felt boring to me. Everybody's different and there is nothing wrong with your opinion. I'd say biggest waste of 3 hours of life is Revenge of the Fallen and Titanic for me. Before anyone starts, the latter is not up for debate.

Is the former up for debate?

Yes.

this movie mostly sucked. infinity war was way better.

Aside from that, I loved it. I loved the downer start, Thor was fun and I hope to see some great cosplay as him in the future, act 2 was fun and heartwarming act 3 was exciting and almost made me cry. This 22 movie long behemoth of a saga has been pretty great overall and, since I have yet to suffer from fatigue, I'm looking forward to what they have planned for phase 4.

There were lots of Nebula scenes, so I'm a happy camper 👍🙃

undeadsuitor:
Captain marvel had the same screen time as okoye. Did her actress do something to piss off fanboys too?

Let's be real here. She's in the movie about as much as the other characters that show up in big character pieces, and her powers limit her from helping in anything less than a war. She really would have been a poor choice for the middle of the movie.

Endgame was about Tony, Steve and Thor. Everything else was window dressing

Yeah, but then why not just introduce her in Endgame? What's the point in making this seemingly important movie before Endgame gets released, introducing us to this new seemingly important character who will play a seemingly significant role in Endgame when she only shows up for two scenes to smash some things? Captain Marvel in Endgame reminds me of how Rumlow was teased to return at the end of Winter Soldier only to die at the start of Civil War, or the end credits scene in Winter Soldier introducing us to a new villain, only for him to die at the start of Age of Ultron.

So anyway, yeah, Endgame was a bit of a flaccid experience. The whole time travel crap really kneecapped this movie, meandering in nostalgia for movies that are barely a decade old. It's the perfect example of why you need to be very careful when writing time travel plotlines, otherwise you end up with shit like this.

I liked the start, and I wish they would've just build ontop of that. Introduce a few new secondary characters, and actually make Captain Marvel part of the plot. Speaking of her, in the final big battle when all the ladies gather together to charge it was kinda hilarious to see Mantis charge along with them. Like, she's a charming character and all, but what the hell is she gonna do in the thick of it?

Overall it was just sloppy with maybe a couple of neat moments. I wasn't even that big a fan of Infinity War, but by comparison Endgame makes it look positively outstanding. A silver lining though seems to be that Far From Home is using the fall-out to do some cool shit.

Infinity War > Age of Ultron > Endgame > Avengers

Marik2:
Infinity War > Age of Ultron > Endgame > Avengers

Didn't know there were other people who liked Age of Ultron more than Avengers 1.

CyanCat47:

Marik2:
Infinity War > Age of Ultron > Endgame > Avengers

Didn't know there were other people who liked Age of Ultron more than Avengers 1.

Endgame reminded me so much of when I first saw Avengers in a packed crowd. The majority of people were yawning and on their phones, until the ending. Ultron had good pacing and it was nice to see other countries get blown up rather than murica for a change.

Casual Shinji:
Speaking of her, in the final big battle when all the ladies gather together to charge it was kinda hilarious to see Mantis charge along with them. Like, she's a charming character and all, but what the hell is she gonna do in the thick of it?

I rarely use the word 'cringe', but that shot was cringe. To me there's another problem: Pepper. She's not a heroine at all, she flies in a magical exosuit superweapon that is controlled by an AI. Yes, she was badass with the extremis.exe installed but that was years ago already. The same with Spider-Man though maybe only 50% because his suit doesn't fly. And the new trailer? Freakin' Zeke Gyggendahl and Zendaya's ""MJ"" can go screw it.

Marik2:
Infinity War > Age of Ultron > Endgame > Avengers

Infinity War>Avengers>Age of Ultron>Endgame

Or, if you want it in a wider context:

I honestly don't understand why people dont like the ultron movie.

Hawki:

Marik2:
Infinity War > Age of Ultron > Endgame > Avengers

Infinity War>Avengers>Age of Ultron>Endgame

Or, if you want it in a wider context:

why in the world do you think that spiderman was the best out of the mcu? it was mediocre at best.

Marik2:
I honestly don't understand why people dont like the ultron movie.

That always bothered me. Its a great movie! Same with Iron Man 2 and Captain America 1! Why all the hate?!

Silentpony:

Marik2:
I honestly don't understand why people dont like the ultron movie.

That always bothered me. Its a great movie! Same with Iron Man 2 and Captain America 1! Why all the hate?!

iron man 2 sucked. the only trilogy to mostly worked and be consistently decent was the captain murica trilogy.

Marik2:

Silentpony:

Marik2:
I honestly don't understand why people dont like the ultron movie.

That always bothered me. Its a great movie! Same with Iron Man 2 and Captain America 1! Why all the hate?!

iron man 2 sucked. the only trilogy to mostly worked and be consistently decent was the captain murica trilogy.

Iron man 2 was leagues better than 3 was, where they just lied in the marketing and pulled the rug out from under an actual MC villain in favor of...some dude...

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