[Politics] "Pregnant Woman Indicted For Baby's Death After Being Shot"

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Shadowstar38:

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

Why on earth do people keep using the phrase "defend Nazis".

Because Saelune is referring to literal self-proclaimed swastika-wielding Nazis. There! Clear as day!

Calm down dude.

Are you saying...

No. You're saying it and then claiming I am the one saying it, just for pointing out how absurd is to defend Nazis in a joke.

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

CaitSeith:

Because Saelune is referring to literal self-proclaimed swastika-wielding Nazis. There! Clear as day!

Calm down dude.

Are you saying...

No. You're saying it and then claiming I am the one saying it, just for pointing out how absurd is to defend Nazis in a joke.

You mentioned Saelune. "punch a Nazi" is the contentious phrase she often refers to that people actually take issue with, referring to several instances where nazis were attacked preemptively rather than in self defense.

Just saying "They're literal Nazis!" doesn't tell me anything about the context of the actual situation involved. Both you and her just say the word Nazi and assume that automatically means everyone is in immediate threat of harm. People need to actually be clear and precise about what they're trying to argue here.

"Your defending Nazi's" is quickly becoming code for "I haven't actually been trying to pay attention to what you're saying".

Shadowstar38:

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

Calm down dude.

Are you saying...

No. You're saying it and then claiming I am the one saying it, just for pointing out how absurd is to defend Nazis in a joke.

Just saying "They're literal Nazis!" doesn't tell me anything about the context of the actual situation involved.

I already said the context: sarcastic joke. Have you actually been paying attention to what I said?

Shadowstar38:

I don't like having my safety violated.

What's your definition of having safety violated? In America, that can range from being stabbed to someone not liking your music and using that to justify slitting your throat.

Shadowstar38:
I don't like having my safety violated. I'm sorry if my reaction sounds extreme to other people, but that's just how I feel about the matter. If you bring harm to people without justification, I can't bring myself to get upset if said people defend themselves.

I think you've just summed up Saelune's overarching point for the last few years.

Glad to know we can always find common ground once we get down to it.

Shadowstar38:

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

Why on earth do people keep using the phrase "defend Nazis".

Because Saelune is referring to literal self-proclaimed swastika-wielding Nazis. There! Clear as day!

Calm down dude.

Are you saying that by virtue of someone being a Nazi, that's justification enough to assault/shoot them? That's the thing I'm getting at here. Because earlier in this thread everyone was trying to debate me about "proportional use of force"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Leg End:

Saelune:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Can I punch/shoot Commies/Antifa?

Being a communist or an anti-fascist does not make you a Stalinist. I do not support or condone Stalinists.

Saelune:
Being a communist or an anti-fascist does not make you a Stalinist. I do not support or condone Stalinists.

So we're actually at this point. Alright. So is it very specifically Nazis you want punched? What about Fascists in general? At what point does the cutoff happen? Where do you go from Punching to Peaceful Coexistence?

Leg End:

Saelune:
Being a communist or an anti-fascist does not make you a Stalinist. I do not support or condone Stalinists.

So we're actually at this point. Alright. So is it very specifically Nazis you want punched? What about Fascists in general? At what point does the cutoff happen? Where do you go from Punching to Peaceful Coexistence?

If we make bigotry and fascism a crime, then according to you, we can put them in concentration camps without remorse.

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you.

Eh, fair enough.

If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

Chiefly? On one hand, you have the forceful detainment and relocation of largely US citizens with even "one drop of Japanese blood" into these camps, where they basically rotted because of disgusting racism and the idea that, by their race, they were all potential or probable foreign spies and actors.

On the other hand, you have foreign nationals illegally entering the country and being detained at these centers in the interim until they're forked over elsewhere, which are not designed nor are prepared for the amount of people they're holding. If you seriously don't see the difference, I don't really have much else to say.

Leg End:

Saelune:
Being a communist or an anti-fascist does not make you a Stalinist. I do not support or condone Stalinists.

So we're actually at this point. Alright. So is it very specifically Nazis you want punched? What about Fascists in general? At what point does the cutoff happen? Where do you go from Punching to Peaceful Coexistence?

Between 1933 and 1945, the Nazi German regime promoted racial health policies that sought to eliminate all sources of biological corruption to its dominant "Aryan" race. Among the groups persecuted as threats to the national health were Germany's homosexual men. Believing them to be carriers of a "degeneracy" that weakened society and hindered population growth, the Nazi state arrested and incarcerated in prisons and concentration camps tens of thousands of German men as a means of terrorizing them into social conformity.

This exhibition examines the Nazi regime's attempt to eradicate homosexuality. The Nazis' efforts left thousands dead and shattered the lives of many more.

(Source)

A Nazi, who believe in Nazi ideals, would try to (at best) remove Saelune from the nation. At worst... or possibly, in the more common, a Nazi would attempt more lethal ways of dealing with Saelune.

[/Digital Knock on Wood because I don't want that to happen to someone I respect... or anyone]

A Communist, at best, would welcome Saelune with open arms. At worst, Saelune wouldn't be able to join the party.

When there's an actual tenet to a belief system that actively threatens someone's life, you can see why they would be against it, right?

Saelune:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Yes. That is a thing that happened.

Smithnikov:

Shadowstar38:

I don't like having my safety violated.

What's your definition of having safety violated? In America, that can range from being stabbed to someone not liking your music and using that to justify slitting your throat.

My personal definition, physical contact. To be more specific, a situation where someone's already being aggressive, or declared intent to, and proceeds to invade my person space despite a verbal warning.

This isn't how its stated in the law mind you, just where my personal limits are.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Yes. That is a thing that happened.

You're doing that thing again, where you heavily reduce something as if it is mundane and trivial, when it was NAZIS MURDERING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE OUT OF BIGOTRY!

ObsidianJones:

Leg End:

Saelune:
Being a communist or an anti-fascist does not make you a Stalinist. I do not support or condone Stalinists.

So we're actually at this point. Alright. So is it very specifically Nazis you want punched? What about Fascists in general? At what point does the cutoff happen? Where do you go from Punching to Peaceful Coexistence?

Between 1933 and 1945, the Nazi German regime promoted racial health policies that sought to eliminate all sources of biological corruption to its dominant ?Aryan? race. Among the groups persecuted as threats to the national health were Germany?s homosexual men. Believing them to be carriers of a ?degeneracy? that weakened society and hindered population growth, the Nazi state arrested and incarcerated in prisons and concentration camps tens of thousands of German men as a means of terrorizing them into social conformity.

This exhibition examines the Nazi regime?s attempt to eradicate homosexuality. The Nazis? efforts left thousands dead and shattered the lives of many more.

(Source)

A Nazi, who believe in Nazi ideals, would try to (at best) remove Saelune from the nation. At worst... or possibly, in the more common, a Nazi would attempt more lethal ways of dealing with Saelune.

[/Digital Knock on Wood because I don't want that to happen to someone I respect... or anyone]

A Communist, at best, would welcome Saelune with open arms. At worst, Saelune wouldn't be able to join the party.

When there's an actual tenet to a belief system that actively threatens someone's life, you can see why they would be against it, right?

If we all agreed to Communism, no one would have to die. If we all agreed to Nazism, most of the Earth's population would be killed.

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Yes. That is a thing that happened.

You're doing that thing again, where you heavily reduce something as if it is mundane and trivial, when it was NAZIS MURDERING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE OUT OF BIGOTRY!

What?

All you did was post a link to a wiki. What other response did you want from me?

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Yes. That is a thing that happened.

You're doing that thing again, where you heavily reduce something as if it is mundane and trivial, when it was NAZIS MURDERING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE OUT OF BIGOTRY!

What?

All you did was post a link to a wiki. What other response did you want from me?

You do know what a Nazi is don't you?

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
You're doing that thing again, where you heavily reduce something as if it is mundane and trivial, when it was NAZIS MURDERING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE OUT OF BIGOTRY!

What?

All you did was post a link to a wiki. What other response did you want from me?

You do know what a Nazi is don't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

I'd say so, yes.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

What?

All you did was post a link to a wiki. What other response did you want from me?

You do know what a Nazi is don't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

I'd say so, yes.

They are the definition of evil, plain and simple.

Saelune:
They are the definition of evil, plain and simple.

Well yeah. That's not an unreasonable statement.

ObsidianJones:

A Nazi, who believe in Nazi ideals, would try to (at best) remove Saelune from the nation. At worst... or possibly, in the more common, a Nazi would attempt more lethal ways of dealing with Saelune.

Who strictly believes in them? Most likely the lethal removal.

[/Digital Knock on Wood because I don't want that to happen to someone I respect... or anyone]

No one would. Hell, I wouldn't want it to happen to people I don't respect either. People can suck, but there's a line I imagine most people don't tend to cross in regards to respecting life and how it applies to even dickheads. Of course, then you apply that to the people that would commit those kinds of atrocities with no remorse, and then we all probably start to dim the lights a little bit on how much we'd care if they experienced the same.

A Communist, at best, would welcome Saelune with open arms. At worst, Saelune wouldn't be able to join the party.

Well, I don't exactly know Saelune's entire being, but I'd say there's a fair chance it'd come in with imprisonment or 'correction' in certain regimes. Issue is, you tend to get a lot of people saying 'Communism', and the they turn into authoritarian shitholes, which tends to get associated with Communism. Pure Marxism, I don't think I have much of an issue with as long as subscribers do it in their own corner and leave me out of it. But back to the association aspect, you tend to have groups like Antifa throwing around various Communist slogans and images, along with genuine hammers and sickles, which then associates those views specifically with their violence against 'Nazis'. That's a key problem here, that the group initiates force against people that fall into their rather broad view of targets.

When there's an actual tenet to a belief system that actively threatens someone's life, you can see why they would be against it, right?

Who wouldn't be able to? It's an understandable thing. My core issue is the initiation of force and the acceptance of using force to combat speech. For someone saying that guns themselves are violence, she has quite the penchant for violence being inflicted upon people.

Saelune:
If we all agreed to Communism, no one would have to die.

...That... Nevermind.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
They are the definition of evil, plain and simple.

Well yeah. That's not an unreasonable statement.

Then why should we tolerate their existence?

There is no such thing as a 'Good Nazi'. Nor is Nazi a thing you have no choice in being. A person chooses to believe in that ideology, to condone and support and desire those views. There is no place in a good world for such people. Now, sure, I would prefer they just come to reason. I am willing to condone ex-Nazis, but they are few and far between. Being a Nazi is not the same as being a Communist, or Capitalist, or even Republican. To be a Nazi is to want to kill all people that goes against the ideal Aryan. To be a Nazi is to inherently be a threat to every person of Jewish descent or faith, every non-white person, every LGBT person, every person even mildly 'off'.

Look, I get it, we both exhange barbs and insults, we argue and fight and insinuate, but please, right now, in this post I am sincerely hoping you can understand me here, and that atleast for this moment, I am putting faith in that you genuinly are a good person who wants good to prevail, who doesnt have any desire to condone or support bigotry, please see and understand the problem here, why I am so vehement in my condemnation of Nazis and those who find Nazis philosophically appealing, that it is not the same to condemn Nazis as it is to condemn ethnicities, sexualities, or genders, nor is it even the same as condemning faiths or more reasonable poltiical parties or economic philosophies. Nazis, more than any group in modern history deserve nothing but absolute destruction, not because they 'just have a difference of opinion', but because their very existance is a threat to the very concept of Good. And this purge need not be utterly violent. Every Nazi turned away from that hateful ideology, turned ex, is also a Nazi purged from this world, but while ideal, that is unrealistic.

We need to make it beyond question that Nazism is unnaceptable, no exceptions. And I worry, genuinly worry, that you and others really dont understand or appreciate that.

I dont know if this will convince you, I know it can be hard for people to truly change what they believe, or their very perception of the world. I would not even think it possible if not for my own change. I know most just see me as an extreme left-winger, but I think most people forget that I used to identify as a 'centrist', albeit a left-leaning one, but still, I complained of the hypocrisy of blacks being racist against whites, of women being sexist against men, and similar issues. And yeah, I still think those are wrong, but I no longer am blinded to the unevenness of bigotry. It is a nice sentiment on paper, but it ignores the context of our real world. Nazis are not the 'evil trope' punching bag they once were, they have gained real and genuine power and influence on the world, on the US government, and I am seriously scared for my life and the lives of those threatened by this pure Evil ideology. I once could not imagine how Nazi Germany could have ever even happened in the first place, but now, now I am seeing it happen again with my own eyes, I am seeing Nazi ideology rise in popularity, and people defend it, and people give it the opportunity to grow, thrive and flourish. Even if you truly mean well with your defence of Nazis, and yes, I do really see it as a defense of them, if coming from a place intending good, it WILL have the opposite effect.

Sorry if this got a bit rambly. I really do hope you can come to understand me better now though, and I really hope to bring us both to a better place, but if you still dont understand me after this, then I guess I have nothing left to say to you, cause I am running out of words and hope.

Leg End:

Saelune:
If we all agreed to Communism, no one would have to die.

...That... Nevermind.

If you think Communism is inherently violent, then you don't know what Communism is. It is as inherently violent as Capitalism. (Capitalism is not inherently violent by the way)

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
They are the definition of evil, plain and simple.

Well yeah. That's not an unreasonable statement.

Then why should we tolerate their existence?

There is no such thing as a 'Good Nazi'. Nor is Nazi a thing you have no choice in being. A person chooses to believe in that ideology, to condone and support and desire those views. There is no place in a good world for such people. Now, sure, I would prefer they just come to reason. I am willing to condone ex-Nazis, but they are few and far between. Being a Nazi is not the same as being a Communist, or Capitalist, or even Republican. To be a Nazi is to want to kill all people that goes against the ideal Aryan. To be a Nazi is to inherently be a threat to every person of Jewish descent or faith, every non-white person, every LGBT person, every person even mildly 'off'.

Look, I get it, we both exhange barbs and insults, we argue and fight and insinuate, but please, right now, in this post I am sincerely hoping you can understand me here, and that atleast for this moment, I am putting faith in that you genuinly are a good person who wants good to prevail, who doesnt have any desire to condone or support bigotry, please see and understand the problem here, why I am so vehement in my condemnation of Nazis and those who find Nazis philosophically appealing, that it is not the same to condemn Nazis as it is to condemn ethnicities, sexualities, or genders, nor is it even the same as condemning faiths or more reasonable poltiical parties or economic philosophies. Nazis, more than any group in modern history deserve nothing but absolute destruction, not because they 'just have a difference of opinion', but because their very existance is a threat to the very concept of Good. And this purge need not be utterly violent. Every Nazi turned away from that hateful ideology, turned ex, is also a Nazi purged from this world, but while ideal, that is unrealistic.

We need to make it beyond question that Nazism is unnaceptable, no exceptions. And I worry, genuinly worry, that you and others really dont understand or appreciate that.

I dont know if this will convince you, I know it can be hard for people to truly change what they believe, or their very perception of the world. I would not even think it possible if not for my own change. I know most just see me as an extreme left-winger, but I think most people forget that I used to identify as a 'centrist', albeit a left-leaning one, but still, I complained of the hypocrisy of blacks being racist against whites, of women being sexist against men, and similar issues. And yeah, I still think those are wrong, but I no longer am blinded to the unevenness of bigotry. It is a nice sentiment on paper, but it ignores the context of our real world. Nazis are not the 'evil trope' punching bag they once were, they have gained real and genuine power and influence on the world, on the US government, and I am seriously scared for my life and the lives of those threatened by this pure Evil ideology. I once could not imagine how Nazi Germany could have ever even happened in the first place, but now, now I am seeing it happen again with my own eyes, I am seeing Nazi ideology rise in popularity, and people defend it, and people give it the opportunity to grow, thrive and flourish. Even if you truly mean well with your defence of Nazis, and yes, I do really see it as a defense of them, if coming from a place intending good, it WILL have the opposite effect.

Sorry if this got a bit rambly. I really do hope you can come to understand me better now though, and I really hope to bring us both to a better place, but if you still dont understand me after this, then I guess I have nothing left to say to you, cause I am running out of words and hope.

...huh. I'm not sure what to add to this so, thanks for taking the time to write that and this is a fair stance. I won't bother harping on this anymore.

Saelune:
If you think Communism is inherently violent, then you don't know what Communism is.

My issue is regarding the standard being "If we all agreed to X, nobody would have to die". To me, that is a rather messed up standard, and also opens up the door to other Fascist and Authoritarian ways of thinking. What if I just throw out the Holodomor ever time and say that's enough of a reason to shoot Communists on sight? Same branch, innit? I could even go as far as to throw out that it's all Authoritarian, and we should shoot all Authoritarian wrongthinkers. This is not a rabbit hole you want to go down. But back to the point of the thread, it's cool that the charges were ultimately dropped/not pursued in regards to the child, though the woman is still a violent shitface.

Leg End:

Saelune:
If you think Communism is inherently violent, then you don't know what Communism is.

My issue is regarding the standard being "If we all agreed to X, nobody would have to die". To me, that is a rather messed up standard, and also opens up the door to other Fascist and Authoritarian ways of thinking. What if I just throw out the Holodomor ever time and say that's enough of a reason to shoot Communists on sight? Same branch, innit? I could even go as far as to throw out that it's all Authoritarian, and we should shoot all Authoritarian wrongthinkers. This is not a rabbit hole you want to go down. But back to the point of the thread, it's cool that the charges were ultimately dropped/not pursued in regards to the child, though the woman is still a violent shitface.

You're completely missing the point of my comment. You are suggesting I am making an ultimatum, I am not. I am saying that if society followed communism properly, it requires no violence, because IT IS AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM. Nazism is inherently violent.

CaitSeith:

Schadrach:

Saelune:
Nazis threaten my life, but I am not allowed to retaliate.

If you are being assaulted by a Nazi, and you shoot them or stab them you can claim self defense as well as anyone else. By threatening your life, you *do* mean actually assaulting you or attempting to do so, not publicly assembling and speaking, right?

Even in a sarcastic joke you have to defend the Nazis, don't you?

I'm not defending Nazis, I'm doubting that they "threaten her life" in an immediate sense, and not, you know, by assembling and speaking in public. Because they have a constitutionally protected right to do that, but in the case of the former I and most courts would accept that she's "allowed to retaliate."

Schadrach:

CaitSeith:

Schadrach:

If you are being assaulted by a Nazi, and you shoot them or stab them you can claim self defense as well as anyone else. By threatening your life, you *do* mean actually assaulting you or attempting to do so, not publicly assembling and speaking, right?

Even in a sarcastic joke you have to defend the Nazis, don't you?

I'm not defending Nazis, I'm doubting that they "threaten her life" in an immediate sense, and not, you know, by assembling and speaking in public. Because they have a constitutionally protected right to do that, but in the case of the former I and most courts would accept that she's "allowed to retaliate."

How would you feel if large groups of people gathered to yell about how much they wish you were dead? Cause that's what Nazis are for people like me. Every gathering of Nazis is a death threat. Do you think death threats should be protected speech?

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