US Justice Department report discloses "thousands" of minors abused in detention centers. [POLITICS]

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Nedoras:

Dreiko:

Seanchaidh:

It's almost like the United States is and has been an imperialist, carceral state independent of whether the President is Trump or some other Republican or, indeed, Democrat. It's almost like focusing on individual personalities misses the entire goddamned point.

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

People weren't fine with this under Obama, people just didn't know. The average citizen here in the States wasn't paying attention to a single damn thing under Obama because it felt "comfy" I guess. Like there was nothing to fear. It's why Obama gets so many free passes. He doesn't get them because they liked what he did, it's because they don't know what he did. It didn't help that the things the Republicans were pushing as scandals at the time were mind-numbingly stupid.

And there IS a difference between the Obama and Trump administrations regarding these facilities. It wasn't good under Obama, far from it, but the Trump administration made it worse instead of fixing anything. They've gone out of their way to maximize human suffering. The conditions these people are now living in is intended and actively fought for. They WANT this. Obama doesn't get a free pass for capitulating to the Republicans by starting all this is the first place. He was a fucking fool. But the Trump administration doesn't get to go "Hey, Obama did this too". It's disingenuous and they fucking know it is.

You're half-right. People indeed didn't know but the reason why is that the people whose job is to inform them were indeed at the very least apathetic towards these child sexual assaults because it had Obama's seal of approval. It's those who didn't inform the people with the same intensity that they now do that are to blame and that's basically the media. You'd think at least fox would have done it but I guess they hate Mexican kids more than Obama so they let it slide.

And nobody is saying Trump isn't worse, what I'm saying is that pretending Obama was good and not just marginally less bad (but still bad) is the big issue here. Obama wasn't supposed to be a republican. If he was a democrat he'd have gotten every kid citizenship and adopted or in foster care as they came in. That's what we should expect out of him and anything less is failure. Nobody expected anything good out of Trump (even his supporters expected only bad things to happen, just not to them) so there's no sense of surprise or betrayal when Trump Trumps.

Dreiko:

Nedoras:

Dreiko:

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

People weren't fine with this under Obama, people just didn't know. The average citizen here in the States wasn't paying attention to a single damn thing under Obama because it felt "comfy" I guess. Like there was nothing to fear. It's why Obama gets so many free passes. He doesn't get them because they liked what he did, it's because they don't know what he did. It didn't help that the things the Republicans were pushing as scandals at the time were mind-numbingly stupid.

And there IS a difference between the Obama and Trump administrations regarding these facilities. It wasn't good under Obama, far from it, but the Trump administration made it worse instead of fixing anything. They've gone out of their way to maximize human suffering. The conditions these people are now living in is intended and actively fought for. They WANT this. Obama doesn't get a free pass for capitulating to the Republicans by starting all this is the first place. He was a fucking fool. But the Trump administration doesn't get to go "Hey, Obama did this too". It's disingenuous and they fucking know it is.

You're half-right. People indeed didn't know but the reason why is that the people whose job is to inform them were indeed at the very least apathetic towards these child sexual assaults because it had Obama's seal of approval. It's those who didn't inform the people with the same intensity that they now do that are to blame and that's basically the media. You'd think at least fox would have done it but I guess they hate Mexican kids more than Obama so they let it slide.

And nobody is saying Trump isn't worse, what I'm saying is that pretending Obama was good and not just marginally less bad (but still bad) is the big issue here. Obama wasn't supposed to be a republican. If he was a democrat he'd have gotten every kid citizenship and adopted or in foster care as they came in. That's what we should expect out of him and anything less is failure. Nobody expected anything good out of Trump (even his supporters expected only bad things to happen, just not to them) so there's no sense of surprise or betrayal when Trump Trumps.

Just because there's no surprise in Trump, doesn't mean this isn't bad or it shouldn't be fixed. You're so insanely focused on making sure everyone knows a president that's no longer president was Just As Bad you're letting the current one let kids get starved and raped.

undeadsuitor:

Dreiko:

Nedoras:

People weren't fine with this under Obama, people just didn't know. The average citizen here in the States wasn't paying attention to a single damn thing under Obama because it felt "comfy" I guess. Like there was nothing to fear. It's why Obama gets so many free passes. He doesn't get them because they liked what he did, it's because they don't know what he did. It didn't help that the things the Republicans were pushing as scandals at the time were mind-numbingly stupid.

And there IS a difference between the Obama and Trump administrations regarding these facilities. It wasn't good under Obama, far from it, but the Trump administration made it worse instead of fixing anything. They've gone out of their way to maximize human suffering. The conditions these people are now living in is intended and actively fought for. They WANT this. Obama doesn't get a free pass for capitulating to the Republicans by starting all this is the first place. He was a fucking fool. But the Trump administration doesn't get to go "Hey, Obama did this too". It's disingenuous and they fucking know it is.

You're half-right. People indeed didn't know but the reason why is that the people whose job is to inform them were indeed at the very least apathetic towards these child sexual assaults because it had Obama's seal of approval. It's those who didn't inform the people with the same intensity that they now do that are to blame and that's basically the media. You'd think at least fox would have done it but I guess they hate Mexican kids more than Obama so they let it slide.

And nobody is saying Trump isn't worse, what I'm saying is that pretending Obama was good and not just marginally less bad (but still bad) is the big issue here. Obama wasn't supposed to be a republican. If he was a democrat he'd have gotten every kid citizenship and adopted or in foster care as they came in. That's what we should expect out of him and anything less is failure. Nobody expected anything good out of Trump (even his supporters expected only bad things to happen, just not to them) so there's no sense of surprise or betrayal when Trump Trumps.

Just because there's no surprise in Trump, doesn't mean this isn't bad or it shouldn't be fixed. You're so insanely focused on making sure everyone knows a president that's no longer president was Just As Bad you're letting the current one let kids get starved and raped.

Yes because if we don't do this then once Trump is gone we'll all again be fine with these starved raped kids because it'll be a non-Trump doing it and he won't be as bad (maybe they'll be just starved, see, much better, no rape!) so it'll be fine cause "at least it's not Trump".

People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

What you're doing is blaming the 10000th hotdog someone ate for their heart attack when the issue is a habitual consumption of them and not that last one, even if it was bacon wrapped and deep fried, cause at most it's just like 3 other ones.

Dreiko:
People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

Yeah, while there's very good reason to hate Trump, he didn't magically appear out of nowhere, they've been building up to him for a while. Any number of GOP types finally realising there might be a problem and asking "What happened to my party?" with a straight face, not enough (inside the GOP or outside) to make a difference.

Thaluikhain:

Dreiko:
People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

Yeah, while there's very good reason to hate Trump, he didn't magically appear out of nowhere, they've been building up to him for a while. Any number of GOP types finally realising there might be a problem and asking "What happened to my party?" with a straight face, not enough (inside the GOP or outside) to make a difference.

There are a bunch of people who think refugees are being treated appropriately. Usually the same people who get worried about being called the R word. I won't use it because I know how offensive it is to some people.

Dreiko:

undeadsuitor:

Dreiko:

You're half-right. People indeed didn't know but the reason why is that the people whose job is to inform them were indeed at the very least apathetic towards these child sexual assaults because it had Obama's seal of approval. It's those who didn't inform the people with the same intensity that they now do that are to blame and that's basically the media. You'd think at least fox would have done it but I guess they hate Mexican kids more than Obama so they let it slide.

And nobody is saying Trump isn't worse, what I'm saying is that pretending Obama was good and not just marginally less bad (but still bad) is the big issue here. Obama wasn't supposed to be a republican. If he was a democrat he'd have gotten every kid citizenship and adopted or in foster care as they came in. That's what we should expect out of him and anything less is failure. Nobody expected anything good out of Trump (even his supporters expected only bad things to happen, just not to them) so there's no sense of surprise or betrayal when Trump Trumps.

Just because there's no surprise in Trump, doesn't mean this isn't bad or it shouldn't be fixed. You're so insanely focused on making sure everyone knows a president that's no longer president was Just As Bad you're letting the current one let kids get starved and raped.

Yes because if we don't do this then once Trump is gone we'll all again be fine with these starved raped kids because it'll be a non-Trump doing it and he won't be as bad (maybe they'll be just starved, see, much better, no rape!) so it'll be fine cause "at least it's not Trump".

People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

What you're doing is blaming the 10000th hotdog someone ate for their heart attack when the issue is a habitual consumption of them and not that last one, even if it was bacon wrapped and deep fried, cause at most it's just like 3 other ones.

What are you wanting us to agree to? In this quote, other people have pointed out that they too think Obama did bad things. You have people agreeing with you and your still angry about... something? Yes, Obama bad. Great. We agree. Have agreed before Trump ever came along if you hadn't noticed. Can we move on now?

trunkage:

Thaluikhain:

Dreiko:
People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

Yeah, while there's very good reason to hate Trump, he didn't magically appear out of nowhere, they've been building up to him for a while. Any number of GOP types finally realising there might be a problem and asking "What happened to my party?" with a straight face, not enough (inside the GOP or outside) to make a difference.

There are a bunch of people who think refugees are being treated appropriately. Usually the same people who get worried about being called the R word. I won't use it because I know how offensive it is to some people.

Dreiko:

undeadsuitor:

Just because there's no surprise in Trump, doesn't mean this isn't bad or it shouldn't be fixed. You're so insanely focused on making sure everyone knows a president that's no longer president was Just As Bad you're letting the current one let kids get starved and raped.

Yes because if we don't do this then once Trump is gone we'll all again be fine with these starved raped kids because it'll be a non-Trump doing it and he won't be as bad (maybe they'll be just starved, see, much better, no rape!) so it'll be fine cause "at least it's not Trump".

People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

What you're doing is blaming the 10000th hotdog someone ate for their heart attack when the issue is a habitual consumption of them and not that last one, even if it was bacon wrapped and deep fried, cause at most it's just like 3 other ones.

What are you wanting us to agree to? In this quote, other people have pointed out that they too think Obama did bad things. You have people agreeing with you and your still angry about... something? Yes, Obama bad. Great. We agree. Have agreed before Trump ever came along if you hadn't noticed. Can we move on now?

Apparently not enough thought someone with Obama's politics and who'd pursue similar policies is bad cause Hillary got nominated last time. It's still worth pointing out until someone actually aligned with people's purported thoughts of what's bad is nominated for once.

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Just like how those who unironically chant "keep America great" when it's more or less the same as it was before it "became great again" are myopic, so are the ones who are acting like we've become nazi Germany. If we have it didn't happen recently.

I mean this went down under Obama but the Trump administration are doing no favors and just letting it happen. Like what can Republicans do to show me they are not on some bullshit. I am mad that it is a race to defeat Trump for Democrats because where is a Republican candidate better Trump.

Nedoras:

Dreiko:

Seanchaidh:

It's almost like the United States is and has been an imperialist, carceral state independent of whether the President is Trump or some other Republican or, indeed, Democrat. It's almost like focusing on individual personalities misses the entire goddamned point.

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

People weren't fine with this under Obama, people just didn't know. The average citizen here in the States wasn't paying attention to a single damn thing under Obama because it felt "comfy" I guess. Like there was nothing to fear. It's why Obama gets so many free passes. He doesn't get them because they liked what he did, it's because they don't know what he did. It didn't help that the things the Republicans were pushing as scandals at the time were mind-numbingly stupid.

And there IS a difference between the Obama and Trump administrations regarding these facilities. It wasn't good under Obama, far from it, but the Trump administration made it worse instead of fixing anything. They've gone out of their way to maximize human suffering. The conditions these people are now living in is intended and actively fought for. They WANT this. Obama doesn't get a free pass for capitulating to the Republicans by starting all this is the first place. He was a fucking fool. But the Trump administration doesn't get to go "Hey, Obama did this too". It's disingenuous and they fucking know it is.

Its crazy to think about that bringing up mustard suits and is Hawaii a state are more better tactics to embolden this base apparently than brown children in borderline and fuck it whole sale concentration camps.

Dreiko:

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Can we argue about that AFTER the kids are released from the concentration camps? Where are your fucking priorities!?

Dreiko:

trunkage:

Thaluikhain:

Yeah, while there's very good reason to hate Trump, he didn't magically appear out of nowhere, they've been building up to him for a while. Any number of GOP types finally realising there might be a problem and asking "What happened to my party?" with a straight face, not enough (inside the GOP or outside) to make a difference.

There are a bunch of people who think refugees are being treated appropriately. Usually the same people who get worried about being called the R word. I won't use it because I know how offensive it is to some people.

Dreiko:

Yes because if we don't do this then once Trump is gone we'll all again be fine with these starved raped kids because it'll be a non-Trump doing it and he won't be as bad (maybe they'll be just starved, see, much better, no rape!) so it'll be fine cause "at least it's not Trump".

People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

What you're doing is blaming the 10000th hotdog someone ate for their heart attack when the issue is a habitual consumption of them and not that last one, even if it was bacon wrapped and deep fried, cause at most it's just like 3 other ones.

What are you wanting us to agree to? In this quote, other people have pointed out that they too think Obama did bad things. You have people agreeing with you and your still angry about... something? Yes, Obama bad. Great. We agree. Have agreed before Trump ever came along if you hadn't noticed. Can we move on now?

Apparently not enough thought someone with Obama's politics and who'd pursue similar policies is bad cause Hillary got nominated last time. It's still worth pointing out until someone actually aligned with people's purported thoughts of what's bad is nominated for once.

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Just like how those who unironically chant "keep America great" when it's more or less the same as it was before it "became great again" are myopic, so are the ones who are acting like we've become nazi Germany. If we have it didn't happen recently.

Immigrant abuse didn't start under Obama either, it just continued. Trump made the problem much worse however, and that is not an exaggeration, that was due to his changes to detainment policies. Obama detained people actually committing crimes, not just detain everyone crossing the border. Obama ONLY separated children over serious crimes, while Trump was separating all children at one time and still many are still lost and they have not been able to locate them at all. Trump caused overcrowding to get far worse and was not adequately addressing it. It is one thing to have an unexpected influx of immigrants, but another to cause the initial overcrowding due to polices, cause an influx of immigrants due to polices and then get an influx of immigrants due to those policies and not adequately attempt to address it. Trump is much worse, not just a bit worse and caused the problem to be much worse via his own actions.

ALso we need not be so loose with our facts and compare apples to apples here:

"I inherited separation, and I changed the plan and I brought people together," Trump said. Trump repeated this claim later in the interview.

Trump's persistent claims don't align with the facts.

Separations under past administrations rare, systematic under Trump
Generally, a child and an adult who arrive together at the border can be separated when border officials cannot establish the custodial relationship; when they believe the custodian may be a threat to the child; or when the custodian is being detained for prosecution.

Immigration experts have told us that family separations were relatively rare under Obama and other past administrations. They did not happen at nearly the scale that they did under the Trump administration.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/jun/21/donald-trump/donald-trump-again-falsely-says-obama-had-family-s/

Trump caused the problem to be worse by cutting aid at a time when they needed aid increased due to natural disasters which then lead to an influx of immigrants fleeing uninhabitable situations in south and Central America. All he keeps trying to do is cut aid further which just keeps making the problem worse. Obama actually increased aid and migration slowed, but Trump refuses to do the same.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/06/us-mexico-immigration-climate-change-migration
https://www.wola.org/analysis/obamas-1-billion-central-america-request-great-news-now-to-invest-wisely/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-budget-foreign-aid-mexico-idUSKBN18J2XJ

Trump just keeps trying to make a bad situation worse and could care less about human rights violations. Of course we should call out when actions are bad regardless of who it is, but we need to actually address those actions for what they are instead of trying to pretend they are all the same.

They are not just a little bit worse, they are a lot worse, that is the issue here:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/trump-child-immigrant-detention-no-toothpaste-obama.html

Dreiko:

undeadsuitor:

Dreiko:

You're half-right. People indeed didn't know but the reason why is that the people whose job is to inform them were indeed at the very least apathetic towards these child sexual assaults because it had Obama's seal of approval. It's those who didn't inform the people with the same intensity that they now do that are to blame and that's basically the media. You'd think at least fox would have done it but I guess they hate Mexican kids more than Obama so they let it slide.

And nobody is saying Trump isn't worse, what I'm saying is that pretending Obama was good and not just marginally less bad (but still bad) is the big issue here. Obama wasn't supposed to be a republican. If he was a democrat he'd have gotten every kid citizenship and adopted or in foster care as they came in. That's what we should expect out of him and anything less is failure. Nobody expected anything good out of Trump (even his supporters expected only bad things to happen, just not to them) so there's no sense of surprise or betrayal when Trump Trumps.

Just because there's no surprise in Trump, doesn't mean this isn't bad or it shouldn't be fixed. You're so insanely focused on making sure everyone knows a president that's no longer president was Just As Bad you're letting the current one let kids get starved and raped.

Yes because if we don't do this then once Trump is gone we'll all again be fine with these starved raped kids because it'll be a non-Trump doing it and he won't be as bad (maybe they'll be just starved, see, much better, no rape!) so it'll be fine cause "at least it's not Trump".

People are letting their dislike for Trump take center stage when the true disgust should be with the whole government and media. In fact, those are who created the environment where someone like Trump could become president.

What you're doing is blaming the 10000th hotdog someone ate for their heart attack when the issue is a habitual consumption of them and not that last one, even if it was bacon wrapped and deep fried, cause at most it's just like 3 other ones.

So you don't care about what's happening

Gotcha

CaitSeith:

Dreiko:

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Can we argue about that AFTER the kids are released from the concentration camps? Where are your fucking priorities!?

It's a given that this is a priority and everyone decent knows it, anyone who doesn't is beyond convincing. I see no point in keeping on with this cause I see it as a bygone conclusion that there should not be camps of any kind outside of those you go willingly to so your parents can have loud sex for a few weeks a year.

Dreiko:

CaitSeith:

Dreiko:

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Can we argue about that AFTER the kids are released from the concentration camps? Where are your fucking priorities!?

It's a given that this is a priority and everyone decent knows it, anyone who doesn't is beyond convincing. I see no point in keeping on with this cause I see it as a bygone conclusion that there should not be camps of any kind outside of those you go willingly to so your parents can have loud sex for a few weeks a year.

Your parents sent you to camp to do that? I am one of ten children from the same two parents and they literally made a chandelier come crashing down while we were watching Disney movies in the living room from their rambunctious sex in their room above us... I don't think my parents were worried about what anyone thought or heard tbh.

But then again, in my culture sex was celebrated and openly discussed not shunned or seen as naughty or forbidden.

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

CaitSeith:

Can we argue about that AFTER the kids are released from the concentration camps? Where are your fucking priorities!?

It's a given that this is a priority and everyone decent knows it, anyone who doesn't is beyond convincing. I see no point in keeping on with this cause I see it as a bygone conclusion that there should not be camps of any kind outside of those you go willingly to so your parents can have loud sex for a few weeks a year.

Your parents sent you to camp to do that? I am one of ten children from the same two parents and they literally made a chandelier come crashing down while we were watching Disney movies in the living room from their rambunctious sex in their room above us... I don't think my parents were worried about what anyone thought or heard tbh.

Nope, I never went to camp either (I was way too much of a house cat growing up), it's a joke! :P

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

trunkage:
There are a bunch of people who think refugees are being treated appropriately. Usually the same people who get worried about being called the R word. I won't use it because I know how offensive it is to some people. What are you wanting us to agree to? In this quote, other people have pointed out that they too think Obama did bad things. You have people agreeing with you and your still angry about... something? Yes, Obama bad. Great. We agree. Have agreed before Trump ever came along if you hadn't noticed. Can we move on now?

Apparently not enough thought someone with Obama's politics and who'd pursue similar policies is bad cause Hillary got nominated last time. It's still worth pointing out until someone actually aligned with people's purported thoughts of what's bad is nominated for once.

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Just like how those who unironically chant "keep America great" when it's more or less the same as it was before it "became great again" are myopic, so are the ones who are acting like we've become nazi Germany. If we have it didn't happen recently.

Immigrant abuse didn't start under Obama either, it just continued. Trump made the problem much worse however, and that is not an exaggeration, that was due to his changes to detainment policies. Obama detained people actually committing crimes, not just detain everyone crossing the border. Obama ONLY separated children over serious crimes, while Trump was separated all children at one time. Trump caused overcrowding to get far worse and was not adequately addressing it. It is one thing to have an unexpected influx of immigrants, but another to cause the initial overcrowding due to polices, cause an influx of immigrants due to polices and then get an influx of immigrants due to those policies and not adequately attempt to address it. Trump is much worse, not just a bit worse and caused the problem to be much worse via his own actions.

ALso we need not be so loose with our facts and compare apples to apples here:

Yes, like I said, if we are nazi Germany, it didn't happen recently.

And see, your entire post here is this thing I mentioned earlier about blaming the 10000th hotdog for the heart attack.

There's not an influx of immigration similar to one that happened under Obama BECAUSE of Trump. Trump is just fumbling/maliciously approaching how to HANDLE the influx.

The issue here is there being an influx to begin with. Only if you address that do you ever fix the issue.

There is an influx because of decades of destabilizing, Obama/Hillary-politics-style policies regarding south America. Policies like those "left wing" people who badmouth Venezuela's leadership and support a coup would also institute.

That is the real issue here. If you don't want kids in cages PERIOD and not just THESE kids in cages, your concern should be how to fix the actual problem and not how nice to make the bandaid. Even what Trump does (or doesn't do) to these kids is not going to exacerbate the problem that is causing people to need to leave their homes in the first place. No matter how much these people do or don't suffer, if we don't actually address the real issue there will always be more like them and eventually either resources will run out and then there will really be an argument for keeping them out or not feeding them, or their countries will become abandoned wastelands and they'll all be living in the US.

If we don't want either of those things to happen, focusing on what I am focusing on is most helpful.

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

Apparently not enough thought someone with Obama's politics and who'd pursue similar policies is bad cause Hillary got nominated last time. It's still worth pointing out until someone actually aligned with people's purported thoughts of what's bad is nominated for once.

Also, I find irritating the exaggeration about how bad Trump's policies are when they're just a little bit worse than what was seemingly fine a moment ago. Selective outrage and preferential treatment and double standards, all bad things. All things to be countered.

Just like how those who unironically chant "keep America great" when it's more or less the same as it was before it "became great again" are myopic, so are the ones who are acting like we've become nazi Germany. If we have it didn't happen recently.

Immigrant abuse didn't start under Obama either, it just continued. Trump made the problem much worse however, and that is not an exaggeration, that was due to his changes to detainment policies. Obama detained people actually committing crimes, not just detain everyone crossing the border. Obama ONLY separated children over serious crimes, while Trump was separated all children at one time. Trump caused overcrowding to get far worse and was not adequately addressing it. It is one thing to have an unexpected influx of immigrants, but another to cause the initial overcrowding due to polices, cause an influx of immigrants due to polices and then get an influx of immigrants due to those policies and not adequately attempt to address it. Trump is much worse, not just a bit worse and caused the problem to be much worse via his own actions.

ALso we need not be so loose with our facts and compare apples to apples here:

Yes, like I said, if we are nazi Germany, it didn't happen recently.

And see, your entire post here is this thing I mentioned earlier about blaming the 10000th hotdog for the heart attack.

There's not an influx of immigration similar to one that happened under Obama BECAUSE of Trump. Trump is just fumbling/maliciously approaching how to HANDLE the influx.

The issue here is there being an influx to begin with. Only if you address that do you ever fix the issue.

There is an influx because of decades of destabilizing, Obama/Hillary-politics-style policies regarding south America. Policies like those "left wing" people who badmouth Venezuela's leadership and support a coup would also institute.

That is the real issue here. If you don't want kids in cages PERIOD and not just THESE kids in cages, your concern should be how to fix the actual problem and not how nice to make the bandaid. Even what Trump does (or doesn't do) to these kids is not going to exacerbate the problem that is causing people to need to leave their homes in the first place. No matter how much these people do or don't suffer, if we don't actually address the real issue there will always be more like them and eventually either resources will run out and then there will really be an argument for keeping them out or not feeding them, or their countries will become abandoned wastelands and they'll all be living in the US.

If we don't want either of those things to happen, focusing on what I am focusing on is most helpful.

No it isn't blaming the last hot dog for the heart attack, it is blaming the person who did exact actions for those actions. Yes, there is an influx because of Trump, he cut aid and CAUSED an influx. Read the links. Obama reduced the influx by increasing aid.

Not only did Trump handle the influx badly his actions directly caused it to be worse. Obama increased aid, Trump cut aid. That is not the 1000th hotdog. Obama rarely separated families, Trump separated all families. That is not the 1000th hotdog. Trump detained asylum seekers long term, Obama did not. That too is not the 1000th hot dog.

I addressed the influx in the above links. I just told you that Obama decreased the influx via increasing aid, Trump cut aid instead causing the influx. Obama increasing aid was not a bad policy, it was proven to be effective. The influx was primarily due to natural disasters caused by climate change, if you had read the post and links provided in that post, you would see I already told you that.

Trump isn't trying to help the problem, he denies climate change is even a problem that exists to begin with. You cannot help resolve the issue long term if you don't address the problems being caused by climate change.

Dreiko:
Even what Trump does (or doesn't do) to these kids is not going to exacerbate the problem that is causing people to need to leave their homes in the first place.

Well, if he continues to slash spending on aid (which has a stabilizing impact) and ramps up overseas aggression, exacerbating the problem is exactly what he will do.

Trump doesn't appreciate the causal link you've drawn there, because he thinks of it as simple criminality. I'm more convinced than ever that he is incapable of looking deeper.

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:
Immigrant abuse didn't start under Obama either, it just continued. Trump made the problem much worse however, and that is not an exaggeration, that was due to his changes to detainment policies. Obama detained people actually committing crimes, not just detain everyone crossing the border. Obama ONLY separated children over serious crimes, while Trump was separated all children at one time. Trump caused overcrowding to get far worse and was not adequately addressing it. It is one thing to have an unexpected influx of immigrants, but another to cause the initial overcrowding due to polices, cause an influx of immigrants due to polices and then get an influx of immigrants due to those policies and not adequately attempt to address it. Trump is much worse, not just a bit worse and caused the problem to be much worse via his own actions.

ALso we need not be so loose with our facts and compare apples to apples here:

Yes, like I said, if we are nazi Germany, it didn't happen recently.

And see, your entire post here is this thing I mentioned earlier about blaming the 10000th hotdog for the heart attack.

There's not an influx of immigration similar to one that happened under Obama BECAUSE of Trump. Trump is just fumbling/maliciously approaching how to HANDLE the influx.

The issue here is there being an influx to begin with. Only if you address that do you ever fix the issue.

There is an influx because of decades of destabilizing, Obama/Hillary-politics-style policies regarding south America. Policies like those "left wing" people who badmouth Venezuela's leadership and support a coup would also institute.

That is the real issue here. If you don't want kids in cages PERIOD and not just THESE kids in cages, your concern should be how to fix the actual problem and not how nice to make the bandaid. Even what Trump does (or doesn't do) to these kids is not going to exacerbate the problem that is causing people to need to leave their homes in the first place. No matter how much these people do or don't suffer, if we don't actually address the real issue there will always be more like them and eventually either resources will run out and then there will really be an argument for keeping them out or not feeding them, or their countries will become abandoned wastelands and they'll all be living in the US.

If we don't want either of those things to happen, focusing on what I am focusing on is most helpful.

No it isn't blaming the last hot dog for the heart attack, it is blaming the person who did exact actions for those actions. Yes, there is an influx because of Trump, he cut aid and CAUSED an influx. Read the links. Obama reduced the influx by increasing aid.

Not only did Trump handle the influx badly his actions directly caused it to be worse. Obama increased aid, Trump cut aid. That is not the 1000th hotdog. Obama rarely separated families, Trump separated all families. That is not the 1000th hotdog. Trump detained asylum seekers long term, Obama did not. That too is not the 1000th hot dog.

I addressed the influx in the above links. I just told you that Obama decreased the influx via increasing aid, Trump cut aid instead causing the influx. Obama increasing aid was not a bad policy, it was proven to be effective. The influx was primarily due to natural disasters caused by climate change, if you had read the post and links provided in that post, you would see I already told you that.

Trump isn't trying to help the problem, he denies climate change is even a problem that exists to begin with. You cannot help resolve the issue long term if you don't address the problems being caused by climate change.

Couple of things. Obama seperated children on .3% of the time. I assume it's because of nefarious immigrants. Once Trump took office it was 3.6%. And then, obviously, 100% for a time. I dont know what the percentage will be this year, but Trump was automatically 10 times worse before all this nonsense last year.

Secondly, Obama paid for a wall. At the bottom of Mexico. And paid the Mexican army to enforce it. It's way smaller and the human rights violations can be blame on the Mexicans.

Trump stopped paying and the Mexicans began shipping immigrants to the US border.

Lastly, people who don't realise that foreign aid is a prevention measure to keep unwanted people in their own country is just plain blind. Dreiko.

Aid is not the real fix here. There's little difference if we spend the money to house the people here or in aid and I've not seen a comparison of the cost of the removal of this aid in extra money spent here. There's an argument that the governments are so corrupt that only a fraction of the aid reaches the populace anyhow so it may be better spent on them here.

Ultimately, either way the solution is going to have to be one that's based on independence from the US. Making their stability reliant on our aid is a precarious position and one I can't see lasting for very long. Like we see, all it takes is one republican to get elected and suddenly the whole South America is in turmoil. Any solution will have to be impervious to that sort of shift in our politics to ever be a real one.

Right now we're just seeing the short term consequences of no aid but the long term consequences of no actual resources to go around due to negligence of creating them in their own countries or of global warming submerging whole parts of nations and displacing millions will be way worse and no amount of aid will ever suffice.

Dreiko:
Aid is not the real fix here. There's little difference if we spend the money to house the people here or in aid and I've not seen a comparison of the cost of the removal of this aid in extra money spent here. There's an argument that the governments are so corrupt that only a fraction of the aid reaches the populace anyhow so it may be better spent on them here.

Ultimately, either way the solution is going to have to be one that's based on independence from the US. Making their stability reliant on our aid is a precarious position and one I can't see lasting for very long. Like we see, all it takes is one republican to get elected and suddenly the whole South America is in turmoil. Any solution will have to be impervious to that sort of shift in our politics to ever be a real one.

Right now we're just seeing the short term consequences of no aid but the long term consequences of no actual resources to go around due to negligence of creating them in their own countries or of global warming submerging whole parts of nations and displacing millions will be way worse and no amount of aid will ever suffice.

You assume that most of the aid was meant to help the little guy. When, in reality, has that EVER been the case. (For example, in my country, wealthy keep complaining about taxes going to the poor yet they receive more tax incentives than the lower 90%.) A lot of aid goes to pay off official to enforce their borders. We say aid because we want to feel good. I support any restriction on aid to make most of it go to the general populace. I'd also point out that the current border 'crisis' is what happens when you stop paying.

You also have issues like Somalia, where people have been in refugee camps since that conflict. In 1991. Some people have been there for almost 30 years. They cant get jobs and aren't gaining skills. They are becoming useless. Their houses were stolen in 91 and they cant buy another. Also, you might have noticed, pirate are usually Somali because they've been banned from working or getting access to things they need. If you deny access like this, it leads to crime. I'm currently reading a book called Kidnap by Anja Shortland on the economics of kidnapping. This is all despite my country and other already taking thousands of refugee. We keep telling these refugees to wait in line but its been 28 years. No wonder they're making alternative arrangements.

There are 6.5 million refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. They regularly get denied access to schools and work. They're just sitting there. No wonder they run off to Europe. It's been 5 years and the conflict is not finishing. What going to happen with this lot?

Then, of course, there is this sort of aid that the US loves to give

And then they have the gall to complain about these people coming to America. America does NOT want other countries to be stability (please also add other miscreants like China and India, Iran and Saudi Arabia.) Call it negligence by small country government all you want. They cannot survive if the big boys keep meddling in their affair. See also the shenanigans my country pull in East Timor, just so they can get more oil.

There's various issues being raised here but at least with Syria I think people should be conscripted to the military and help protect their country rather than hang out in Turkey for 5 years. Maybe if they had they'd have taken back their homes and have created an economy with jobs and whatnot by now. As for the situation in Somalia, I'm terribly uninformed so I'll not offer a solution. Still, aid doesn't seem to me to be anything more than a bandaid in either situation. At this point we might as well just relocate every third world country to the US and Europe and be done with it the way things are going. Making it a slow and unregulated process will just draw it out and lead to the same end but cause more suffering as we get there.

Dreiko:

Seanchaidh:

Dreiko:
This report is over four years (2014-2018) so it's not just Trump doing this. You wanna mention that right up cause if you don't people will treat it as you trying to shield Obama from his hand in these child sexual assaults. I myself genuinely thought it was a recent phenomenon that occurred only since the child separation policy of Trump's begun.

It's almost like the United States is and has been an imperialist, carceral state independent of whether the President is Trump or some other Republican or, indeed, Democrat. It's almost like focusing on individual personalities misses the entire goddamned point.

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

Not to mention he's been telling everyone there's a border crisis for months now while being told by lib media it's all bs.

Also ironic is Trump identified more as a liberal himself prior to running, even rubbing shoulders with Billary just a few short years prior. Maybe he should ran against Hilary in the primaries and everything would been fine.

Dreiko:
There's various issues being raised here but at least with Syria I think people should be conscripted to the military and help protect their country rather than hang out in Turkey for 5 years. Maybe if they had they'd have taken back their homes and have created an economy with jobs and whatnot by now.

Compulsory military service? With the accompanying huge loss of life, breaking up families, and the terrible economic impact of taking working-age men out of all the other industries?

I can think of few things which would have a worse impact.

Silvanus:

Dreiko:
There's various issues being raised here but at least with Syria I think people should be conscripted to the military and help protect their country rather than hang out in Turkey for 5 years. Maybe if they had they'd have taken back their homes and have created an economy with jobs and whatnot by now.

Compulsory military service? With the accompanying huge loss of life, breaking up families, and the terrible economic impact of taking working-age men out of all the other industries?

I can think of few things which would have a worse impact.

Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation. If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

I definitely don't think American or Russian soldiers need to risk their lives if the people there won't do the bare minimum of standing side by side with them.

hanselthecaretaker:
Also ironic is Trump identified more as a liberal himself prior to running, even rubbing shoulders with Billary just a few short years prior. Maybe he should ran against Hilary in the primaries and everything would been fine.

This statement in and of itself is funny, considering the Clintons and their neoliberal ilk, of whom Trump indeed was part, are the ones who kick-started this entire fucking mess by passing NAFTA in the first place.

It's deliberate.

Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

If Illegal Immigrants are unhappy with the conditions in the quickly built or refitted detentions centers, just tell them not to come. All problems solved!

Dreiko:
Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation. If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

If people are fleeing their country en masse, they probably don't love their country, and dying for it likely isn't going to help.

Dreiko:

Silvanus:

Dreiko:
There's various issues being raised here but at least with Syria I think people should be conscripted to the military and help protect their country rather than hang out in Turkey for 5 years. Maybe if they had they'd have taken back their homes and have created an economy with jobs and whatnot by now.

Compulsory military service? With the accompanying huge loss of life, breaking up families, and the terrible economic impact of taking working-age men out of all the other industries?

I can think of few things which would have a worse impact.

Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation. If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

I definitely don't think American or Russian soldiers need to risk their lives if the people there won't do the bare minimum of standing side by side with them.

You do realize that the same government who was killing it's own people is still in charge right? Do you even know what was actually happening there? US and Russia were not supporting the same side... Russia was making sure the government that was attacking it's people retained control, the US was backing the people against their own government. Terrorists took advantage of an already volatile situation due to the civil war that was already in progress. The people fled for a reason, and many of which could be killed by that government if they returned, they certainly are not going to help the government that was killing them continue to kill their family and friends. I have no idea why you or anyone else for that matter would think compulsory service in Syria would even be a "thing" at this point considering the actual situation there.

Thaluikhain:

Dreiko:
Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation. If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

If people are fleeing their country en masse, they probably don't love their country, and dying for it likely isn't going to help.

Considering many of the people who fled are more likely to choose to die fighting against their own government than for it, forcing them into the battle would just ensure a bigger bloodbath than they already have at this point.

Dreiko:

Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation.

Really? And where you grew up, the draft means definite active combat duty and an extremely high mortality rate, does it?

Dreiko:
If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

Whoa-- the sacrifice of one's life, and the bereavement of their family, is the least one can give?

To be perfectly frank, I don't think you're appreciating the severity of what you're suggesting, or the destruction and destitution of conscription. This is an attempt to blame the citizenry of a country in crisis for its current situation, so as to absolve those abroad with wealth and means-- who have the power to help-- from feeling guilty.

Dreiko:

I definitely don't think American or Russian soldiers need to risk their lives if the people there won't do the bare minimum of standing side by side with them.

Here's a crazy idea-- maybe the solution isn't a matter of throwing more military might at the problem.

hanselthecaretaker:

Dreiko:

Seanchaidh:

It's almost like the United States is and has been an imperialist, carceral state independent of whether the President is Trump or some other Republican or, indeed, Democrat. It's almost like focusing on individual personalities misses the entire goddamned point.

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

Not to mention he?s been telling everyone there?s a border crisis for months now while being told by lib media it?s all bs.

Also ironic is Trump identified more as a liberal himself prior to running, even rubbing shoulders with Billary just a few short years prior. Maybe he should ran against Hilary in the primaries and everything would been fine.

I don't think the crisis were all talking about (child rape concentration camps) is the same crisis the republicans are harping about (a mass of zomb-..mexicans ready to kill and rape all good white americans)

Dreiko:

Where I grew up we have the draft so I have no sympathy for people in this particular situation. If it's your country and your culture and you love it you should be willing to die to protect it. You owe it at least this much.

How did your time in the army go?

Eacaraxe:

hanselthecaretaker:
Also ironic is Trump identified more as a liberal himself prior to running, even rubbing shoulders with Billary just a few short years prior. Maybe he should ran against Hilary in the primaries and everything would been fine.

This statement in and of itself is funny, considering the Clintons and their neoliberal ilk, of whom Trump indeed was part, are the ones who kick-started this entire fucking mess by passing NAFTA in the first place.

I was being facetious but yeah.

undeadsuitor:

hanselthecaretaker:

Dreiko:

Trump basically put a personality that's easy to badmouth next to these reprehensible policies so suddenly everyone who was fine with them in 2014 is aghast now. If that's what it takes for these policies to be considered as badly as they deserve to be and to be changed I guess that's a silver lining his victory. Though it doesn't bode well for our future cause anything a nonTrump president does next will be compared to this and excused despite still being terrible, if only marginally less so.

Focusing on personalities is what allows people to get away with these republican-esque policies and still be considered democrats, cause if you're not against abortions and don't hate tan/gay people you're instantly good for the working poor, apparently.

Not to mention he?s been telling everyone there?s a border crisis for months now while being told by lib media it?s all bs.

Also ironic is Trump identified more as a liberal himself prior to running, even rubbing shoulders with Billary just a few short years prior. Maybe he should ran against Hilary in the primaries and everything would been fine.

I don't think the crisis were all talking about (child rape concentration camps) is the same crisis the republicans are harping about (a mass of zomb-..mexicans ready to kill and rape all good white americans)

It would seem that one crisis/mismanaged situation led to another, as is typically the case throughout history. This was always going to be a cluster, and there's really no civil remedy because the situation itself has never been civil. There will always be strife and chaos when the aim is to compartmentalize societies, but chances are the same could also be said if they weren't.

If human life really did originate in one place, then homogenization apparently wasn't meant to be on the menu. We haven't really learned how to come to acknowledge or manage that yet very well.

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