[Politics] Doctor allowed Patient to Walk Outside, wrongly arrested for Stealing Medical Equipment

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RobertEHouse:

Lil devils x:

RobertEHouse:

First he is not an old patient and Pneumonia does not have the side effect of confusion. Pneumonia in the hospital if it's bad enough your hooked up to a machine to breathe you will not suffer confusion. If anything Pneumonia will cause temps over 105 and vomiting with shortness of breath. His condition though was not bad enough if he was give just an inhaler.

Second you cannot walk out of hospital in the US with an IV drip attached to you at all. That is both illegal and a health risk as if his IV drip dries out; air accumulates and can go into the blood stream. Air in the blood stream will lead to a very painful death as the air pocket reaches the heart in seconds. Also removing an IV drip with no experience will lead to permanent harm and infection. That is one reason of many, why you don't walk out with IV drips. Second the Steroid in the IV outside of the hospital is illegal in the possession of non healthcare personnel. He was also not discharged as clearly indicated by the hospital and thus he walked outside.

Medical equipment is also very valuable worth tens of thousands of dollars because of insurance and red tape.Security handles both legal 2000 codes (those trying to harm self and others) etc as well as property theft. Freeport Chicago on the other hand has sections where crime is high; the hospital sits in the old section of town not a very nice place. Because of that it would not be out of the scope of security to be looking for theft. Still we will have to wait for the independent investigation to go public.

This is bullocks. I have worked in numerous hospitals, and am currently affiliated with 4. A patient of any age can have confusion, this is not a side affect limited to the elderly and for you to make such a statements shows that you have no clue what you are talking about here. This is not uncommon for those who have difficulty breathing at all age levels even those at the prime of their lives. The man was not discharged, he was walking around the Premises and NO it is not illegal for him to walk around. He had 2 people with him at the time, which we only require they have one person assisting them when they are walking around with their drip in case they need help they have someone there to either assist them or call for help. No, not all doors are guarded by guards at US hospitals. Usually there is one stationed in the ER, but this man was not in the ER, he had already been admitted to the hospital two days prior so he could walk out any of the side entrances of the buildings, usually those are park like areas for patients to walk around and try to get some fresh air to help them recover. That is why you will often see even wheelchair bound patients with IV's min those areas as well being pushed around. Patients are expected to use those areas. And that is what the article stated the man was doing when he was accosted by this guard. Quit trying to tell people who do work in hospitals how this works because not all hospitals have prison guards stationed at every entrance. Hell some hospitals do not have even have a guard at all. Walking around on the property inside or out is not illegal with an IVB drip and going outside does not mean someone was discharged and I have no idea why you would think it would. What you stated above does not apply and you are misrepresenting the actual incident. The man never left the premises, he was outside which the area surrounding the hospital is still hospital property band it is not illegal for the patients to be there with their drips. The man was not leaving, nor was he unaccompanied he was out walking around the hospital property getting some air and had been granted permission to do so by his physician.

EDIT: In addition, usually theft does not occur by people walking around hooked up to IV's. Thieves usually disassemble items and shove them in their suit case and walk out the door and it is absurd to assume that someone walking around hospital property inside or out hooked up to a drip is trying to steal their IV.

First Pneumonia does not cause confusion, it is the UNDERLINING accompany issues it that can cause confusion. Meaning it comes from effects of the patient?s health, age, diabetes, etc. Or did you not get what I wrote about it being the UNDERLINING and not the sole issue. Second Your hospitals employing prison guards is the first I ever heard of that. We normally employ off duty officers or had a specialty security detail for securing the premise. Mainly because Prison guards are not all that qualified as they don?t usually have the experience with city laws then the police. I have been in a hospital which has had no full time security but that was in a town of only 5,000 populations with three officers. The station was just next door from the main hospital annex.

A hospital that allows patients to walk out in front or near a parking lot is already got problems. Hospital administration can be legally reliable if anything happens to them outside. IF they faint, collapse or etc the hospital can be found negligent in treatment by not watching them. This leads to lawsuits and thus the reasons patients are not allowed to leave their rooms if they assigned. Ever been to a hospital built in 1970? They might have a central courtyard enclosed by a patient's wing. Well those were supposed to be for patients to relax and get fresh air. Sadly Hospital Administrations now seal these off simply because of the fear of lawsuits from patients.

Again the Man was not discharged meaning if he got hurt or harmed others outside. The hospital would be legally responsible in the eyes of the law. The notice of discharge is a signed document that makes the hospital no longer responsible for injury and to ensure proper medical charges can be applied for treatment. Lastly IV's in parts of Nevada and Texas, California are considered a no no. I am not talking about a small syringe part I am talking about the whole bag and the poll and pump system he had on him.

About theft in hospitals, I was addressing a known issue that exist in the healthcare industry as a whole. Nursing homes and Hospitals have things stolen and those things cost lots of money and are known to be on the black market. Our security teams are not just supposed to protect, but if possible prevent theft of property. Hospitals contain medication which on the street sell for thousands and other small things can sell for hundreds. The man walking away with a $25,000 IV pump system does attend to draw certain attention , as its not something you bring out of a hospital.

First of all, Pneumonia frequently lowers a patients oxygen levels due to mucus filling the lungs and it is the lowered oxygen levels that can cause confusion. A patient does not need other underlying health issues to cause this to happen and we see this frequently in the field even from 16 year olds to 25 year olds. The man was out walking around, not presently hooked up to oxygen and that will deplete his oxygen levels further with the increased activity after being down for days.

You are incorrect to claim that you have to have other factors to cause this as this is an extremely common side effect to having decreased oxygen:

Pneumonia is caused by a viral or bacterial infection that fills your lungs with mucus. This lowers the oxygen level in your blood.

https://www.trinityhealthofne.org/pneumonia

Low oxygen symptoms of hypoxemia vary depending upon its severity. If you or a loved one experience any of the symptoms listed below, contact a health care provider as soon as possible:
Confusion
A sense of euphoria
Restlessness
Headache
Shortness of breath
Rapid breathing
Dizziness, lightheadedness and/or fainting spells
Lack of coordination
Rapid heart rate
Elevated blood pressure
Visual disturbances
A bluish tint to the lips, earlobes, and/or nail beds (cyanosis)
Elevated red blood cell count or polycythemia (if a long-term problem)

https://www.inogen.com/blog/signs-your-loved-one-may-not-be-getting-enough-oxygen/
Please quit espousing inaccurate information.

You were the one painting a picture of all hospital doors being guarded, they most definitely are not, as I stated above, not even all hospitals even have guards.

No one remotely suggested we allow patients to roam about outside unattended, but as the article stated above, the patient had 2 people with him, he was not unattended. Like I also stated above, we only require they have one person with them, in case they need to assist or call for help. It isn't like anyone was suggesting the patient roam about outside alone in his condition. As long as a patient is not a fall risk, we allow them to walk around the grounds with family members. If they are a fall risk, we require the use of a wheelchair. Only in cases where the patient must be closely monitored do we require a hospital attendant to be present. This man should have been fine under normal circumstances, but I am sure the physician who granted him permission was not expecting the security to accost patients in such a way.

You are incorrect that all hospitals seal off the outdoor spaces. Hospitals all over Texas currently do not have these spaces sealed off at all. At one here, you can walk across the street from the outdoor space and grab BBQ just a few feet away. Of course we also have rooftop gardens and balconies, but we also have open access spaces for patients as well and those are the most commonly used here. Even our Hospitals that were built in 2015 still have open patient areas.

The man was not discharged and he did not leave Hospital property, this is common and expected. you are inaccurate in your assessment that patients are not allowed to go outside without being discharged. That type of security would be expected of a mental health facility, but not for most hospitals operating in the US. I AM talking about Texas, and yes, people are often wheeled and walking outside with their bag attached, as seen as recently as yesterday in Dallas. While yes, our Dallas hospitals have more security than rural hospitals, we still do not cage up patients or deny them access to open outside areas. I am not sure why you seem to think this is uncommon or a problem at all really. Most patients are not treated like they are prisoners, they are treated with compassion and care as they should be.

What are you talking about with "Lastly IV's in parts of Nevada and Texas, California are considered a no no."? We even have numerous patients with at home care ( their own home, not a nursing home) that have required IV's and walk around in their own yards with them in Texas. I am not exactly sure what you are calling a " no no" here, as patients have rights as well here.

EDIT: In addition, you might find the results of our recent studies on self administered long term IV antibiotics interesting:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151215160452.htm

Silvanus:

RobertEHouse:

So did you go to a correspondence school? or Nurse School ?because honestly I want to know as what state has such lax standards so i don't end up getting treatment. Plus if you are willing to tell me your nursing license I can get the ball rolling of getting you removed from nursing. As you are not suppose to hand out medical advice over forums or websites ,PERIOD.

Nobody gave out medical advice.

To be frank, it is astonishingly churlish to imply you could derail somebody's career in an online forum (as if anybody would take that seriously anyway).

That threatening nonsense, as well as the overall lack of detail or verification you've given above, does not build trust in your credentials or trustworthiness on the subject. Poor grammar doesn't help either.

===

On the off-chance that any other readers might actually take anything written here as medical advice: If you are actually wondering about this for a relevant reason, ask a medical professional (and I mean in person), don't take it from an online board.

I add this only because I know people Google things about medical topics like this and come across forums from time to time.

According to all the State Nursing Boards, Under the Nursing Act.You can not give out medical advice you can be sued. You cannot stated a opinion as medical fact. Gethsemani never stated the harm of removing a IV can do by a untrained professional or stated it was a opinion. I had to point it out as it could harm someone who read it. Simply because Gethsemani stated they are a "licensed nurse". Not under contract to give medical advice here they are not legally allowed to do so.. Believe me I don't like the board, but I am trying to tell Gethsemani what misstep they did. To be more careful in the future all it takes is them to see what they posted.

https://searchhealthit.techtarget.com/definition/HIPAA

A Doctor online can be given out if they are under paid contract. A nurse can give advice online if they are under paid contract to do so. But a License Nurse and Doctor cannot give advice online if they are not under some contract. That means forums and the like. They also cannot state a opinion dealing with medical procedures without stating it just their professional option.

RobertEHouse:

Silvanus:

RobertEHouse:

So did you go to a correspondence school? or Nurse School ?because honestly I want to know as what state has such lax standards so i don't end up getting treatment. Plus if you are willing to tell me your nursing license I can get the ball rolling of getting you removed from nursing. As you are not suppose to hand out medical advice over forums or websites ,PERIOD.

Nobody gave out medical advice.

To be frank, it is astonishingly churlish to imply you could derail somebody's career in an online forum (as if anybody would take that seriously anyway).

That threatening nonsense, as well as the overall lack of detail or verification you've given above, does not build trust in your credentials or trustworthiness on the subject. Poor grammar doesn't help either.

===

On the off-chance that any other readers might actually take anything written here as medical advice: If you are actually wondering about this for a relevant reason, ask a medical professional (and I mean in person), don't take it from an online board.

I add this only because I know people Google things about medical topics like this and come across forums from time to time.

According to all the State Nursing Boards, Under the Nursing Act.You can not give out medical advice you can be sued. You cannot stated a opinion as medical fact. Gethsemani never stated the harm of removing a IV can do by a untrained professional or stated it was a opinion. I had to point it out as it could harm someone who read it. Simply because Gethsemani stated they are a "licensed nurse". Not under contract to give medical advice here they are not legally allowed to do so.. Believe me I don't like the board, but I am trying to tell Gethsemani what misstep they did. To be more careful in the future all it takes is them to see what they posted.

https://searchhealthit.techtarget.com/definition/HIPAA

A Doctor online can be given out if they are under paid contract. A nurse can give advice online if they are under paid contract to do so. But a License Nurse and Doctor cannot give advice online if they are not under some contract. That means forums and the like. They also cannot state a opinion dealing with medical procedures without stating it just their professional option.

Again that is not accurate. You do not have to be under contract to give out advice online. We have plenty of physicians who do so on their own accord in the US. Additionally, Gethsemani is not even in the US and US regulations do not even apply. Sure you can be sued for your advice, but you can be sued for your advice in person as well I don't even have to be paid to be sued. I can be sued for advice given while at the free clinic or given out for free online, no paid contract is necessary.

RobertEHouse:

If you were a nurse you would not have just said anything like that. You should know better about what happens when you pull out a IV fast. Infiltration of fluid and medication outside the inter-vascular space. Hematoma the leakage of blood from the vessel in the surrounding tissue. How about Phlebitis or Thrombophlebitis which inflames the veins. Also what about Air Embolis which does occur as a result of large volumes of air entering the patient.

And you would know that I wouldn't say anything like this based on which medical or nursing qualifications that you possess?

Here's what happens when you pull out a PVC fast: You start bleeding. After anywhere from 20 seconds to a few minutes, depending on the coagulation rate of your blood and any illness and medication affecting it (if you're on anti-clotting meds it can take hours, but that's the outside case), the bleeding stops. You should always pull out a PVC with some speed, as the sensation of it leaving the vein can be uncomfortable, if not painful.
Hematomas, or bruises as the layman would say, can occur when you remove a PVC and is not uncommon nor dangerous.
Phlebitis can occur (very rarely) if a PVC is removed, but the puncture wound not sufficiently covered. Correct coverage of a PVC puncture wound ranges from bandaids (if available) to paper tissues taped down over the wound. A much more common cause of phlebitis as it relates to PVCs is if they are left too long in the vein without being properly flushed, as residual medication or blod clots around the edge of the catheter can cause infection. This is why the current guidelines in Sweden suggests flushing an intermittently used PVC at least every 12 hours and that a PVC should be removed and a new one inserted in another vein every 72 hours.
Air embolis can not occur from the removal of a PVC. The amount of air that potentially enters the blood stream is simply not sufficient.

RobertEHouse:
Second the IV does dry out and you should know that! IV solutions are either refrigerated or at room temps. Outside in the sun you weaken the integrity of the solution and the IV does back up. Also the guy was on a pump which is not just a simple IV drip. That pump also cost around $25,000 plus and hospitals don't like to let patients wonder around outside with them. Plus you failed to mention the possibility of sepsis infect without gloves if a patient removes a IV without care. Lastly it's very easy to puncture a IV bag and exposing it to the sun also causes it to become more receptacle towards it.

Where exactly would the IV dry out to? Even in extreme heat, the solution can not leave the bag. Modern IV pumps are also built to detect if there's a sudden stoppage of the IV, cease operation and emit a warning signal. So that's a no go. Sepsis can happen if you remove a PVC without gloves or proper care, as can any infection, that's generally why it is done in controlled environments by health care staff. However, the chance of sepsis is minor unless you seriously mishandle the PVC as you remove it, even without gloves. You are just spouting medical terms without understanding what they mean or how they actually come together.

RobertEHouse:
So did you go to a correspondence school? or Nurse School ?because honestly I want to know as what state has such lax standards so i don't end up getting treatment. Plus if you are willing to tell me your nursing license I can get the ball rolling of getting you removed from nursing. As you are not suppose to hand out medical advice over forums or websites ,PERIOD.

I'm not allowed to give out personalized medical or nursing advice without documenting said advice in a proper patients journal. I'm also not allowed to use my nursing license to promote or endorse non-health care related things or bank on the public trust in nurses for other things. However, I am free to use my competence in whatever manner I see fit, including discussing medical and nursing matters on the internet with laymen. As pertains to this discussion, I was not giving out advice, merely stating that you vastly overstated the risks involved with removing a PVC. That's not to say that I recommend it or suggest you ever remove a PVC on your own, but it is not nearly as dangerous as you made it out to be.

Finally, as I practice nursing in Sweden, I'm bound by different laws and regulations then US nurses. So as the saying goes: You've got nothing on me.

RobertEHouse:

According to all the State Nursing Boards, Under the Nursing Act.You can not give out medical advice you can be sued. You cannot stated a opinion as medical fact. Gethsemani never stated the harm of removing a IV can do by a untrained professional or stated it was a opinion. I had to point it out as it could harm someone who read it. Simply because Gethsemani stated they are a "licensed nurse". Not under contract to give medical advice here they are not legally allowed to do so.. Believe me I don't like the board, but I am trying to tell Gethsemani what misstep they did. To be more careful in the future all it takes is them to see what they posted.

https://searchhealthit.techtarget.com/definition/HIPAA

A Doctor online can be given out if they are under paid contract. A nurse can give advice online if they are under paid contract to do so. But a License Nurse and Doctor cannot give advice online if they are not under some contract. That means forums and the like. They also cannot state a opinion dealing with medical procedures without stating it just their professional option.

Ok, stop for a second. Let's get it clear exactly what legislation you're talking about. You first refer to the "Nursing Act", but the link you gave describes the "Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act".

Now, if you're referring to the Act described in the link you gave, it specifically states that it does not apply;

For de-identified data, however, there are no restrictions to its use or disclosure. De-identified data does not identify or provide information that could identify an individual.

Since nothing Gethsemani posted identified a specific individual, it's "de-identified data" as far as this Act is concerned, which means the Act does not restrict it at all.

Now, I am unable to identify any legislation named the "Nursing Act" which applies in the US. Each State does, however, have a Nurse Practice Act. Is that what you were referring to? The NCSBN (which represents the Nursing boards throughout the US) has a tool here which allows viewers to read the details of each State's Nursing Practice Act.

Let's take a random example (say, Washington), and see whether it applies to what Gethsemani has posted. Here is the page provided by the Department of Health (and linked by the NCSBN) which lists laws, rules and statutes affecting Nurses, including disclosure of information:

https://www.doh.wa.gov/LicensesPermitsandCertificates/NursingCommission/Laws

Where is the relevant part that renders what Gethsemani did illegal?

Lil devils x:

RobertEHouse:

Lil devils x:
This is bullocks. I have worked in numerous hospitals, and am currently affiliated with 4. A patient of any age can have confusion, this is not a side affect limited to the elderly and for you to make such a statements shows that you have no clue what you are talking about here. This is not uncommon for those who have difficulty breathing at all age levels even those at the prime of their lives. The man was not discharged, he was walking around the Premises and NO it is not illegal for him to walk around. He had 2 people with him at the time, which we only require they have one person assisting them when they are walking around with their drip in case they need help they have someone there to either assist them or call for help. No, not all doors are guarded by guards at US hospitals. Usually there is one stationed in the ER, but this man was not in the ER, he had already been admitted to the hospital two days prior so he could walk out any of the side entrances of the buildings, usually those are park like areas for patients to walk around and try to get some fresh air to help them recover. That is why you will often see even wheelchair bound patients with IV's min those areas as well being pushed around. Patients are expected to use those areas. And that is what the article stated the man was doing when he was accosted by this guard. Quit trying to tell people who do work in hospitals how this works because not all hospitals have prison guards stationed at every entrance. Hell some hospitals do not have even have a guard at all. Walking around on the property inside or out is not illegal with an IVB drip and going outside does not mean someone was discharged and I have no idea why you would think it would. What you stated above does not apply and you are misrepresenting the actual incident. The man never left the premises, he was outside which the area surrounding the hospital is still hospital property band it is not illegal for the patients to be there with their drips. The man was not leaving, nor was he unaccompanied he was out walking around the hospital property getting some air and had been granted permission to do so by his physician.

EDIT: In addition, usually theft does not occur by people walking around hooked up to IV's. Thieves usually disassemble items and shove them in their suit case and walk out the door and it is absurd to assume that someone walking around hospital property inside or out hooked up to a drip is trying to steal their IV.

First Pneumonia does not cause confusion, it is the UNDERLINING accompany issues it that can cause confusion. Meaning it comes from effects of the patient?s health, age, diabetes, etc. Or did you not get what I wrote about it being the UNDERLINING and not the sole issue. Second Your hospitals employing prison guards is the first I ever heard of that. We normally employ off duty officers or had a specialty security detail for securing the premise. Mainly because Prison guards are not all that qualified as they don?t usually have the experience with city laws then the police. I have been in a hospital which has had no full time security but that was in a town of only 5,000 populations with three officers. The station was just next door from the main hospital annex.

A hospital that allows patients to walk out in front or near a parking lot is already got problems. Hospital administration can be legally reliable if anything happens to them outside. IF they faint, collapse or etc the hospital can be found negligent in treatment by not watching them. This leads to lawsuits and thus the reasons patients are not allowed to leave their rooms if they assigned. Ever been to a hospital built in 1970? They might have a central courtyard enclosed by a patient's wing. Well those were supposed to be for patients to relax and get fresh air. Sadly Hospital Administrations now seal these off simply because of the fear of lawsuits from patients.

Again the Man was not discharged meaning if he got hurt or harmed others outside. The hospital would be legally responsible in the eyes of the law. The notice of discharge is a signed document that makes the hospital no longer responsible for injury and to ensure proper medical charges can be applied for treatment. Lastly IV's in parts of Nevada and Texas, California are considered a no no. I am not talking about a small syringe part I am talking about the whole bag and the poll and pump system he had on him.

About theft in hospitals, I was addressing a known issue that exist in the healthcare industry as a whole. Nursing homes and Hospitals have things stolen and those things cost lots of money and are known to be on the black market. Our security teams are not just supposed to protect, but if possible prevent theft of property. Hospitals contain medication which on the street sell for thousands and other small things can sell for hundreds. The man walking away with a $25,000 IV pump system does attend to draw certain attention , as its not something you bring out of a hospital.

First of all, Pneumonia frequently lowers a patients oxygen levels due to mucus filling the lungs and it is the lowered oxygen levels that can cause confusion. A patient does not need other underlying health issues to cause this to happen and we see this frequently in the field even from 16 year olds to 25 year olds. The man was out walking around, not presently hooked up to oxygen and that will deplete his oxygen levels further with the increased activity after being down for days.

You are incorrect to claim that you have to have other factors to cause this as this is an extremely common side effect to having decreased oxygen:

Pneumonia is caused by a viral or bacterial infection that fills your lungs with mucus. This lowers the oxygen level in your blood.

https://www.trinityhealthofne.org/pneumonia

Low oxygen symptoms of hypoxemia vary depending upon its severity. If you or a loved one experience any of the symptoms listed below, contact a health care provider as soon as possible:
Confusion
A sense of euphoria
Restlessness
Headache
Shortness of breath
Rapid breathing
Dizziness, lightheadedness and/or fainting spells
Lack of coordination
Rapid heart rate
Elevated blood pressure
Visual disturbances
A bluish tint to the lips, earlobes, and/or nail beds (cyanosis)
Elevated red blood cell count or polycythemia (if a long-term problem)

https://www.inogen.com/blog/signs-your-loved-one-may-not-be-getting-enough-oxygen/
Please quit espousing inaccurate information.

You were the one painting a picture of all hospital doors being guarded, they most definitely are not, as I stated above, not even all hospitals even have guards.

No one remotely suggested we allow patients to roam about outside unattended, but as the article stated above, the patient had 2 people with him, he was not unattended. Like I also stated above, we only require they have one person with them, in case they need to assist or call for help. It isn't like anyone was suggesting the patient roam about outside alone in his condition. As long as a patient is not a fall risk, we allow them to walk around the grounds with family members. If they are a fall risk, we require the use of a wheelchair. Only in cases where the patient must be closely monitored do we require a hospital attendant to be present. This man should have been fine under normal circumstances, but I am sure the physician who granted him permission was not expecting the security to accost patients in such a way.

You are incorrect that hospitals seal off the outdoor spaces. Hospitals all over Texas currently do not have these spaces sealed off at all. At one here, you can walk across the street from the outdoor space and grab BBQ just a few feet away. Of course we also have rooftop gardens and balconies, but we also have open access spaces for patients as well and those are the most commonly used here. Even our Hospitals that were built in 2015 still have open patient areas.

The man was not discharged and he did not leave Hospital property, this is common and expected. you are inaccurate in your assessment that patients are not allowed to go outside without being discharged. That type of security would be expected of a mental health facility, but not for most hospitals operating in the US. I AM talking about Texas, and yes, people are often wheeled and walking outside with their bag attached, as seen as recently as yesterday in Dallas. While yes, our Dallas hospitals have more security than rural hospitals, we still do not cage up patients or deny them access to open outside areas. I am not sure why you seem to think this is uncommon or a problem at all really. Most patients are not treated like they are prisoners, they are treated with compassion and care as they should be.

What are you talking about with "Lastly IV's in parts of Nevada and Texas, California are considered a no no."? We even have numerous patients with at home care ( their own home, not a nursing home) that have required IV's and walk around in their own yards with them in Texas. I am not exactly sure what you are calling a " no no" here, as patients have rights as well here.

EDIT: In addition, you might find the results of our recent studies on self administered long term IV antibiotics interesting:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151215160452.htm

I am glad that hospitals built in 2015 at least somewhere have open areas, I wished more had them. I don't like any person hanging around a parking lot when they could be around trees or something not concrete.Then again I was talking about older hospitals with the whole small indoor closed court yards where a thing. Built long prior to 2015 they were though as smoking areas with trees and stuff. Some hospitals shut these things down out of cost or liability etc.

I am also not talking about home care; I am talking about hospitals and Nursing homes, public and privately own enterprises dealing with healthcare. Home-care has more leeway when dealing with treating and making a patient comfortable. Hospitals if they are private or publicly owned have issues of financial liability.Which does not always line up for the best interest of the patient. Some of them don't have the budget to improve like newer hospitals.Which has green parts or places for patients to relax. I never said all hospitals were like this, but a large group exist that just are behind the times. I also didn't say he had to be discharge to go outside, what meant to state was a percentage of hospitals will rather keep patents inside then the liability with them outdoors.

The man was not discharged was given steroids and antibiotics and no O2. Instead they provided him with an inhaler. Out in the parking lot in Illinois humidity and summer heat would not been the best for his weakened system. Now if it is proven his confusion became worse outside then that is something important point to find out. It is something that would place more of a fault for his problem also on the hospital foot steps.

As for the IV Drip poles in public,again not in private home-care. Hospitals in Arizona, Nevada patients are ordered to remain indoors as walking outdoors with one might get you question by the police.The newer hospitals do have courtyards some are even climate controlled. Still the 100 summer heat does plays heck with the IV drip solutions. California hospitals are a mix bag either having a dedicated space for patients. Or not, no one is allowed in a parking lot mainly because of location. In parts of Los Angeles like Westchester ordinates does not allow it. Texas at this point is just like California depending on location and place you might have a more open or closed experience at your hospital.

Gethsemani:
I don't know much about US hospital regulations and law, but I know that in Sweden all parts outside of the hospital, like park areas and parking lots, are also considered parts of the hospital for juridical matters. So here you could go to the parking lot to pick up something in your car or take a walk with an IV, as long as it has been cleared with medical and nursing staff.

To the best of my knowledge not being a health care attorney, that's the case in the US as well, though the definition of a hospital campus was amended a couple years back to account for provider-based facilities because hospitals were screwing patients on Medicare (spoiler alert). As far as I know, disconnecting patients from IV's so they can walk hospital grounds, and walking grounds only with supervising personnel, aren't legal requirements, but they are common policy for lawsuit CYA. If Dukes' account is accurate, he sought consultation so he wasn't AMA, wandering, or potentially eloping.

Though, according to the cops (for what that's worth) he didn't seek consultation.

EDIT: None of which vindicate the security guard's behavior. He should have asked them to wait at the door and called up to verify he had permission to go outdoors, instead of going straight to "they're stealing shit".

Eacaraxe:

Gethsemani:
I don't know much about US hospital regulations and law, but I know that in Sweden all parts outside of the hospital, like park areas and parking lots, are also considered parts of the hospital for juridical matters. So here you could go to the parking lot to pick up something in your car or take a walk with an IV, as long as it has been cleared with medical and nursing staff.

To the best of my knowledge not being a health care attorney, that's the case in the US as well, though the definition of a hospital campus was amended a couple years back to account for provider-based facilities because hospitals were screwing patients on Medicare (spoiler alert). As far as I know, disconnecting patients from IV's so they can walk hospital grounds, and walking grounds only with supervising personnel, aren't legal requirements, but they are common policy for lawsuit CYA. If Dukes' account is accurate, he sought consultation so he wasn't AMA, wandering, or potentially eloping.

Though, according to the cops (for what that's worth) he didn't seek consultation.

EDIT: None of which vindicate the security guard's behavior. He should have asked them to wait at the door and called up to verify he had permission to go outdoors, instead of going straight to "they're stealing shit".

It is all in the wording, the article does not state that he didn't ask for permission to walk around outside, it stated that they did not give him permission to leave the hospital, which includes outside immediately around the hospital on the grounds, to which the man claimed he never left until the security guard forced him to.

In a police report of the incident, the hospital security guard told officers that after he questioned Dukes about why he was leaving the hospital attached to an IV, Dukes and the two men with him "got in my face" and began cursing at him. The security guard told police he felt "extremely threatened," acccording to the report.
Dukes said that the only time he left the hospital property was when the security guard called him over to his vehicle parked in the street outside the hospital.
He said that after attempting to explain that his doctor was aware he had gone outside for a walk after spending several days at the hospital, the security guard responded, "Well I don't care what they told you. As far as I'm concerned, this is hospital equipment and you're attempting to steal it."
In the cellphone video Dukes posted online, the security guard is heard telling police officers, "He's stealing hospital property, basically, by leaving. I don't care if he was coming back, that's stealing."
(MORE: Colorado police officer who pulled gun on black man picking up trash quits force)
Dukes and his two companions, Marqwandrick Morrison and Credale Miles, were arrested on charges of disorderly conduct.
"Our investigation revealed that at no time did any doctor or nurse give that patient or any patient permission to leave the hospital while still hooked to an IV machine," Freeport police officials said in a statement to ABC News.
Dukes said he has filed a complaint with the city.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/black-patient-hooked-iv-arrested-walk-michigan-hospital/story?id=64045701

Most likely he did ask either his attending physician or nurse if he could get up and get some air and they agreed, as is common, which he was doing when the security guard yelled at him to come over to the security guards car, which would have been in the road or lot and that would force the patient to move away from the building and courtyard in order to comply with the security guard at that time. Asking to get up and walk around and get some air is not asking to leave, and the wording is important here.

I also expect that it would cause anyone irritation and even anger to be falsely accused of stealing when they are sick and in the hospital, and he should have been rightly agitated by a security guard's inappropriate unnecessary escalation of conflict. All officers, security or otherwise should understand that is not an appropriate way to approach any situation.

Lil devils x:
It is all in the wording, the article does not state that he didn't ask for permission to walk around outside, it stated that they did not give him permission to leave the hospital, which includes outside immediately around the hospital on the grounds, to which the man claimed he never left until the security guard forced him to.

Hence the "for what that's worth". Public statements by police departments are wont for imprecise wording in situations where precision matters. It's still entirely possible the department spokesperson meant "hospital" in the sense of "building" rather than "campus", as that is the most common use of the term even if that is not the legal definition. And likewise, it's possible Dukes didn't specify he wanted to go outdoors when he asked to go for a walk, the attendant misunderstood his intent, and/or they didn't specify for him to stay indoors. It's possible for both of these statements to simultaneously be true while assuming positive intent of all involved actors, if the discrepancy is due to imprecise communication at any point.

Either way, the salient points are that he was still on grounds, and the guard acted inappropriately.

RobertEHouse:
The fact is that it is illegal to have a IV drip attached outside of a hospital in the US. Or the fact that is illegally for a hospital anywhere in the US to allow a patient to walk outside with one. Or the fact that a patient not discharge cannot leave the premise under any circumstances unless discharged agreed by a doctor is signed. Or to discharge patient with a steroid antibiotic IV drip as it's consider by law to be administer under supervision.As that drug is considered a controlled substance which cannot legally be in the position of an non-healthcare personal. This is protocol in all hospitals in the US.

I can also tell you that hospitals do place security personal in the entrance way. They place a security desks right near when you walk in the ER .Just before you run into the main reception desk or right after you enter thought the ambiance drop off. Simply because LEGAL 2,000 happen A LOT (they try to harm self or others). I also know of this hospital, it's huge and if he was in the parking lot that is one large parking lot. They also used to have a third party contracted in charge of the security cameras on the hospital grounds. Lastly this is not a very safe area of Chicago and like all hospitals people try to steal anything all the time.

Beyond this I personally want to wait for the independent investigation report to find out what their findings are.

See I can understand 90% of this, as controlled susbtance laws are serious business but the part where they fucked up is removing the IV without a doctor, the man could have an infection or bleed out because of this stupid decision. That should really be the lead, not buried in the details.

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