Ooooh dear, a black actress is playing Live Action Ariel in the Little Mermaid movie.

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Baffle2:

Silvanus:

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

Yeah, but which sea?

I quite like the idea of it being set off the coast of Great Yarmouth. The whole show would've been about whether it was better to live above or under the water, because they're equally shit and likely to give you tetanus.

(As you may be able to tell, I've never seen The Little Mermaid, but I have been to Great Yarmouth. More than once.)

Set a new Little Mermaid off the coast of Innsmouth, Massachusetts. Make her and her entire family Deep Ones. I'm sure the musical numbers would be magnificent!

Silvanus:

Batou667:

[quote]
OK, good, so you concede there are certain characteristics that if changed would alter the character to an unacceptable degree. Why isn't ethnicity one of them? Almost everyone here seems to have decided a priori that The Little Mermaid's race is so irrelevant it's beneath discussion. The other upcoming live action Disney release being discussed on this forum is Mulan. Nobody is suggesting Mulan be portrayed by a black actress. Why?

Because Mulan is set in historic China, and the Little Mermaid is set under the sea.

I would add to this and argue that Mulan being Chinese and female are kinda central to the entire plot and you can't change them without causing significant problems.

Changing Ariel's skin color affects nothing, especially since Mermaids are fictional and anything beyond "Mermaid and Human relationship" isn't relevant to the plot. That and the little Mermaid isn't particularly tied to reality anyway.

The complainers are just the same mouth-breathers who said "Hollywood needs bankable stars" when Dragonball and Ghost in the Shell were whitewashed, but completely lost their pathetic little minds when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall. Their fragile egos can't handle not having everything be about them.

Agema:

Samtemdo8:

Is pretty much iconic to culture at this point. Having a Black Actress be this Ariel is the equivalent of making Jesus an African man.

Jesus was from the Levant, and would have looked much like a modern-day Egyptian, Palestinian, Israeli or Syrian.

So I wouldn't put that much stock in the iconic Westernised blonde and fair-skinned Jesus. And bear in mind if you go to Ethiopia, Christian for ~1500 years, the Ethiopian Orthodox often portrays him as black. The point being, icons can easily be adapted to meet people's desires.

So why not a black Ariel?

You must be very lucky, since I've never seen a picture of a blond blue-eyed Jesus/Joshua!

Some of the oldest representations of Jesus have him look like a typical Mediterranean person with olive skin and brown eyes/hair. Talking about over a thousand years old paintings, have seen some of those in person in some Greek isle monasteries (remember, the new testament was originally written in Greek). So yeah he's neither sub-saharan African nor Norwegian. Though I did enjoy that black Jesus play episode of the Boondocks.

Hawki:
https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

They said something that the story is gonna be in Jamaica.

Agema:

Samtemdo8:

Is pretty much iconic to culture at this point. Having a Black Actress be this Ariel is the equivalent of making Jesus an African man.

Jesus was from the Levant, and would have looked much like a modern-day Egyptian, Palestinian, Israeli or Syrian.

So I wouldn't put that much stock in the iconic Westernised blonde and fair-skinned Jesus. And bear in mind if you go to Ethiopia, Christian for ~1500 years, the Ethiopian Orthodox often portrays him as black. The point being, icons can easily be adapted to meet people's desires.

So why not a black Ariel?

Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

But regardless the reason they casted Halle Bailey as Ariel is because she's a great singer and is gonna make Pop /Hip-Hop remixes of Part Of Your World and what not.

Samtemdo8:

Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

No, it isn't.

I mean...okay, the best case one has for Ariel being white is that the original story is Danish in origin, and (extending this to Disney canon), that we know that the series takes place somewhere in the proximity of Europe in the 18th century. That, and Atlantica/King Triton are taken from Greek mythology. Still, at the end of the day, mermaids are fictional, and whatever the history of mermaids in its setting, they're ultimately free to operate as the writers want them. And if the argument's fidelity to the source material, Disney threw that out the window with the original film.

Bruce Wayne being black however is more difficult. However crazy the DC multiverse gets, it's still obstensibly our world to at least some extent. So if the Waynes are an old American family that accumulated wealth over the generations, it's not impossible for them to be black, but if we're assuming that the history of the US remains the same in the DC universe, it would be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. So as outlandish as Batman is, him being white does admittedly stretch credulity slightly less than him being black.

That said, I'd argue that black!Batman is kind of redundant at this point since Batwing is a character that exists. Same reason why black!Peter Parker is kind of redundant as well since Miles Morales exists as well, and the MCU multiverse is all the richer for it.

Or it at least gave me the best Spider-Man movie made with Miles as the lead that is. Can't comment on the comics.

Samtemdo8:
Better comparison then. Making DISNEY'S Ariel black is the equivalent of making Bruce Wayne black.

Bruce Wayne? Not really. Pretending to be a clueless rich guy wouldn't work quite the same if Bruce Wayne was black.

Now, Aquaman, maybe. Not because of the underwater thing, but because he's a not-quite human that spends most of his time in not-human society.

ObsidianJones:

Batou667:

I'm honestly not sure if you're saying "Yeah, representation matters, not having it sucks" or "Audiences need to grow the hell up and learn to identify with protagonists who don't mirror them exactly"?

Both.

I feel bad borderline necro-ing a thread with no posts for a week but I also feel bad letting this go unanswered.

You realise those two statements I made before are kind of contradictory, right? Or at least, they can be used to argue AGAINST race-swapping just as easily as they can be used to argue the case for. To wit:

Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.

It's not crucial for a character to exactly fit the same demographics of a white kid for them to be able to identify with them and enjoy the story. This should then apply to minority kids too, right?

I feel like the elephant in the room here is that everyone has decided that these considerations of principle, of what's good for the goose being good for the gander, of providing a level playing field - has all been discarded because "we" have decided that minority rights are more important. If it feels progressive or will please a historically marginalised group, then make the change, end of. Remarkably, I think Saelune gave one of the most honest contributions to this discussion: changing an established character is annoying, it messes with the canon, it upsets the fans, but it's gotta be done because White Man's Burden.

I'd rather nobody put hyperbolic words in my mouth about White Genocide or similar, but I will note the global population of people of European descent is a minority of about 20% of the planet. And the US is projected to be majority nonwhite by 2045. So, objections to erasing white characters from media may not be as ridiculous or unfounded as the detractors may suggest...

And just to reiterate one more time, I have no objection at all to increasing visible diversity through the creation of new IPs that focus on mixed or POC casts. That's both a predictable, and indeed desirable, outcome of living in a multicultural society that values its citizens of all backgrounds (for you, USA, for me, cosmopolitan Europe). But I'd like to see that achieved by increasing what's out there, not through blackwashing. I do hope people can see the distinction I'm making here, even if they may not agree with it.

Batou667:
Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.

Sure. But I think that there already is a white Disney Princess. Possibly more than one.

Batou667:
And the US is projected to be majority nonwhite by 2045. So, objections to erasing white characters from media may not be as ridiculous or unfounded as the detractors may suggest...

Majority non-white in that "white" will still be the largest ethnicity, but will be outnumbered by everyone else if you lump "everyone else" (including mixed racial) in together. So, pretty ridiculous and unfounded.

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

If Disney decided to re-do every movie with black princesses, ok, that'd be weird, but I don't see this becoming a trend.

Batou667:
And just to reiterate one more time, I have no objection at all to increasing visible diversity through the creation of new IPs that focus on mixed or POC casts. That's both a predictable, and indeed desirable, outcome of living in a multicultural society that values its citizens of all backgrounds (for you, USA, for me, cosmopolitan Europe). But I'd like to see that achieved by increasing what's out there, not through blackwashing. I do hope people can see the distinction I'm making here, even if they may not agree with it.

Extend that to "no more lie action remakes of old Disney films at all" and you won't hear much disagreement.

Actually, if you've decided you've got to do the same exact story again, changing the ethnicity of the main character when it doesn't matter is probably the easiest way to not be exactly the same when you are being exactly the same.

Thaluikhain:

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

Those aren't really comparable to Little Mermaid. BatB is explicitly set in France, and in the context of the live-action film, likely in the early 19th century. I don't know if Cinderella takes explicit inspiration from any one European country, but Europe is still the inspiration.

BatB and Cinderella have to factor in real-world considerations to at least some extent, far more than Little Mermaid. It doesn't technically rule out blackwashing the leads, but it's a more noticable deviation than a fictional species from a fictional kingdom.

Hawki:

Thaluikhain:

Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

Those aren't really comparable to Little Mermaid. BatB is explicitly set in France, and in the context of the live-action film, likely in the early 19th century. I don't know if Cinderella takes explicit inspiration from any one European country, but Europe is still the inspiration.

BatB and Cinderella have to factor in real-world considerations to at least some extent, far more than Little Mermaid. It doesn't technically rule out blackwashing the leads, but it's a more noticable deviation than a fictional species from a fictional kingdom.

Well, I mean that if you want a Disney live action remake starring a white girl, you've got two from not long ago, not that I think it's significant that those two weren't cast with black girls. Though, they didn't have to do those films when they did, they could have picked others.

My absolutely favourite thing about this is the people claiming mermaids couldn't be black because they live deep under the sea and don't get very much sunlight..

I think that's very revealing.

They should put pretty actresses in these roles. Let's check the objective facts:

Mia Wasikowska was pretty in 2010 but not anymore
Elle Fanning is cute
Emma Watson is okay
Naomi Scott is beautiful and perfect for the role to boot
Liu Yifei is alright, but too old for the role
Zendaya is completely the wrong person to play 'geek-MJ', but holy crap just take a look at her parents; she is lucky. I mention her because Halle Bailey is like a poor person's Zendaya.

Honorable mention to Lashana "007" Lynch who stands firmly in joke-territory.

Jokes going round that they can have it both ways, keep Ariel black, but have her played by Scarlett Johansson.

Batou667:

ObsidianJones:

Batou667:

I'm honestly not sure if you're saying "Yeah, representation matters, not having it sucks" or "Audiences need to grow the hell up and learn to identify with protagonists who don't mirror them exactly"?

Both.

I feel bad borderline necro-ing a thread with no posts for a week but I also feel bad letting this go unanswered.

You realise those two statements I made before are kind of contradictory, right? Or at least, they can be used to argue AGAINST race-swapping just as easily as they can be used to argue the case for. To wit:

Representation is important for black and ethnic minority kids. It should logically follow that representation is important for white kids too.

It's not crucial for a character to exactly fit the same demographics of a white kid for them to be able to identify with them and enjoy the story. This should then apply to minority kids too, right?

I feel like the elephant in the room here is that everyone has decided that these considerations of principle, of what's good for the goose being good for the gander, of providing a level playing field - has all been discarded because "we" have decided that minority rights are more important. If it feels progressive or will please a historically marginalised group, then make the change, end of. Remarkably, I think Saelune gave one of the most honest contributions to this discussion: changing an established character is annoying, it messes with the canon, it upsets the fans, but it's gotta be done because White Man's Burden.

I'd rather nobody put hyperbolic words in my mouth about White Genocide or similar, but I will note the global population of people of European descent is a minority of about 20% of the planet. And the US is projected to be majority nonwhite by 2045. So, objections to erasing white characters from media may not be as ridiculous or unfounded as the detractors may suggest...

And just to reiterate one more time, I have no objection at all to increasing visible diversity through the creation of new IPs that focus on mixed or POC casts. That's both a predictable, and indeed desirable, outcome of living in a multicultural society that values its citizens of all backgrounds (for you, USA, for me, cosmopolitan Europe). But I'd like to see that achieved by increasing what's out there, not through blackwashing. I do hope people can see the distinction I'm making here, even if they may not agree with it.

*sighs* Fair. I feel bad having to answer something I moved on from, but here I am again.

You do also realize that those sentences can easily be used to prove the point of the Black Ariel

"Yeah, representation matters, not having it sucks"

Yes. It really does. It really sucks when you're an 7 year old boy and you write comic book stories with you as a hero, and then you change your race because you think only superheroes can be white. Because that's what the comic books at the time show you. Or, if you want to be a superhero that matters, you have to be white.

When you hear about a new game being developed and they talk about the character they are developing, and how they want to make someone that everyone can identify with and/or see themselves in... And once again it's another non-descript white male.

That sucks.

"Audiences need to grow the hell up and learn to identify with protagonists who don't mirror them exactly"

Yes, it really does. It's something we've been saying for a long time, but the audience doesn't seem to get it. I mean, why do we have to cater to such a small part of the market anyway? If there were more, we would see more of them in games. And so far, the numbers bare that out.

Hey, for the last part of that skit, the biggest column is Choose Your Own Identity sort of thing, but the amount of stories that are presented from a uniquely female point of view is 4 percent of all upcoming games. There is Five times more stories told from an uniquely male stand point, and Sweet Zombie Jesus, there's 6.6 percent of games that are N/A. There are more games told from a non-gendered/human view than there are for a female perspective.

And I'm not following that it 'should apply for minority kids'. It's always applied for minority kids. I would be shocked if you somehow unearthed this mass of minority kid protagonists that gave anywhere enough representation to justify a calming down of the push for diversity. In fact, I invite you to do that. Enough with the thought exercises. Let's get some action, right? Let's both find enough minority representation where we won't have twenty million black panthers and Shuris each year because that's all the black kids got. Or all of the Asians. Who could be Wong from Dr Strange, Collen Wing from Iron Fist, or maybe Michelle Yoeh's character from Guardians of the Galaxy.

You conflate "having some representation" as "more important". That's for you to sort out. Not for us to try to teach you differently. Black Ariel has nothing really to do with saying white people aren't important. It's troubling that you think that way, but I assure you that you're apart of a small minority that thinks that way. I will not be thinking white people's views mean less to me than it did before because a mythical creature had a melanin change. I don't think Disney's 1989 Ariel ceases to exist. What I actually think is that there's room for both to exist.

And that's really the end of it. I don't think Ariel should be black for all of time. I will not feel anything if the next version of her is white. Nor asian. Nor latina. Nor green.

Like, how many people are truly pissed that Odin wasn't played by a Swedish/Norwegian guy, but a Welshman. We don't talk about representation there. Because the pigmentation for the God was correct.

Black Ariel does not erode Redhead Ariel. Redhead Ariel will not erode Green Ariel coming in 2045. There's room for all. That's the line for me.

Hawki:
https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

That ramps up my interest in the movie from *nonexistent* to "may check it out".

If only because Terry Crews should play anyone, regardless of ethnicity, age or gender. (Like Steve Buscemi)

Thaluikhain:

Black Ariel does not erode Redhead Ariel. Redhead Ariel will not erode Green Ariel coming in 2045.

I know it's beside the point, but I wouldn't actually mind a green Ariel.

Like, photosynthetic mermaid falling in love with a mammal from above? Go for it.

Hawki:

Thaluikhain:

Black Ariel does not erode Redhead Ariel. Redhead Ariel will not erode Green Ariel coming in 2045.

I know it's beside the point, but I wouldn't actually mind a green Ariel.

Like, photosynthetic mermaid falling in love with a mammal from above? Go for it.

How would a photosynthetic animal live at the *bottom* of the ocean? Clearly were gonna have to go deeper

image

evilthecat:
My absolutely favourite thing about this is the people claiming mermaids couldn't be black because they live deep under the sea and don't get very much sunlight..

I think that's very revealing.

I could buy that if they were arguing that the mermaids should be albino levels of pale. I created mermaids for a shared world project and that's what I did. As it stands though, I'm rolling my eyes.

Speaking broadly, I'm a bit puzzled that people are upset about this. I mean we did a black Cinderella before. And a black Mercutio. And an all black Wizard of Oz...It's not exactly a new concept.

Hawki:
https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

I'd count that as a "meh" if they keep the shaved head, but that image where they give him cartoon Triton's white mane? I'm game for that.

Asita:
Speaking broadly, I'm a bit puzzled that people are upset about this. I mean we did a black Cinderella before. And a black Mercutio. And an all black Wizard of Oz?It's not exactly a new concept.

We had a race flipped Othello with Patrick Stewart. We had Major Kusanagi, The Original Fox was Black and didn't look Like Angelina Jolie, Ben Affleck played real life mixed race man (Mexican and European background) Antonio "Tony" Mendez, All of Exodus Gods and Kings, Aloha with Emma Stone (who was supposed to be Native American, Chinese, and Swedish... but to be fair, that was 'supposed to be apart of the character' for some reason), The Movie 21 is based on Real Asian Students who actually did the card counting in real life, Josh Hartnett's character was changed from Inuit to whatever Josh is in 30 Days of Night...

The Ancient One, Goku, Tiger Lily, Ra's Al-Ghul, Death Note, Avatar, Edge of Tomorrow: Live Die Repeat (an Adaption of a Japanese Manga), Prince of Persia, Tony Montana, Johnny Rico (Yeah, he's Filipino in the book), Khan (He's Sikh), Noah...

Wait, I'm sorry. We were supposed to be focusing on Ariel being black now and how outlandish that is. Sorry, got sidetracked.

Sarcasm aside, when it's a white person who takes a minority role, certain people come by and say that we should not think of anything but the story and it isn't a big deal. When a minority takes over a white role, Those same 'certain people' come through on a tear complaining that Diversity has gone too far and nothing is sacred any more.

It's literally a matter of people trying to have their cake and eat it too.

ObsidianJones:

*snip*

In fairness, a lot of those examples did get a lot of flack for whitewashing. Less so Othello, though. The Theater loves shaking things up by tweaking the productions, and making Othello the only white guy in an otherwise all-black cast is kinda par for the course.[1]. But I distinctly remember people being pissed at the revelation that Cumberbatch's character was actually Khan and I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside of the production team say it was anything but a mistake.

Though the Ancient One's actually a really interesting case because Dr. Strange was a bit of a land mine in the race department. The comic version of the character ends up being a "Fu Manchu" style mentor to a white protagonist (something that the Iron Fist TV show would later get criticized for). Keep the race but change the gender and you'd have the Dragon Lady stereotype. So as Derekson put it, he needed someone who could be "domineering, secretive, etherial, enigmatic, mystical", and concluded that Tilda Swinton was exactly what he was looking for. Even so, he is on record describing the decision as "the lesser of two evils, but still an evil". So a bit of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" there.

[1] As another example to help illustrate this, there are multiple productions of Swan Lake which give the part of the leading lady to a guy, thereby making it a gay love story.

Asita:
*snip me and I'll snip you out of spite* :p

Flack isn't an issue. There will be flack for anything.

My issue is the last thing I said. The segment of the population who tells others who were upset with my examples to stop racebaiting and see if the story is good are usually the same ones who get so upset when a white character is turned to a minority. At that point, they'll say diversity is everywhere and nothing is safe and why can't we just leave things alone.

ObsidianJones:

We had a race flipped Othello with Patrick Stewart.

The whole cast was flipped there. Which means mostly traditionally white roles played buy black actors with Steward the sole exception. That is a theatre trying to gimmick up a performance but certainly not a caase of whitewashing.

We had Major Kusanagi

Which was far more controversal than the mermaid or the nordic god or whatever.

And similar is true for most of the rest of the list. Either i have never heard about the production/source at all or people where extremely unhappy about that casting (Do you remember the rage about Avatar ?)

Sarcasm aside, when it's a white person who takes a minority role, certain people come by and say that we should not think of anything but the story and it isn't a big deal. When a minority takes over a white role, Those same 'certain people' come through on a tear complaining that Diversity has gone too far and nothing is sacred any more.

Those people likely exist. But they seem to be quite rare compared to the "it does not match the source"-crowd (which is quite big for any IP that has a fandom to speak of) and the "get over it, it is a new interpretation and those are good actors" crowd.

Further nitpicking :

The original Prince of Persia 1989 (from a game i actually played and even beat after oh so many tries) was not only white (which would be true for most real world Persians anyway) but even a blonde (which does happen but is less common).

Khan is a genetically engeneered abomination of mixed genetic structure. Sikhs are a religion, not a race (and Sikhism is pretty new anyway). And most people in the region where Sikhs are common are white. It has not been a good casting choice for continuity reasons, but not for having a white actor play someone with a Sikh name (not that Khan seems particularly religious anyway)

So if you don't follow the British idea of "But the whites in our Asian colonies can't be really white, let's call them brown and pretend we are still racial superior", all of that is not valid. Race theory is rubbish, but even there it is called "Caucasian" for a reason and people didn't speculate about some superior "Aryan" race out of nowhere.

Then you have quite a number of cases of people who per source are of mixed descent and at least half white, sometimes predominantly white. Just because someone is not an American does not make him non-white. Casting a white actor for such a role hardly counts.

And for some reasons this discussion only happens to Hollywood productions. No one cares about e.g. the casting of Kiki's delivery service (imho both original and life action are nice, family friendly fun and the casting does not hurt at all). But for everywhere else in the world people are far more forgiving to studios hiring local talents even if the race does not fit.

Samtemdo8:

Hawki:
https://au.ign.com/articles/2019/07/08/terry-crews-petitions-himself-to-be-king-triton-in-disneys-the-little-mermaid

Terry Crews as King Triton.

Guess that makes sense genetically.

They said something that the story is gonna be in Jamaica.

Finally explains Sebastian, this is starting to make MORE sense than the original. And I couldn't let this

Asita:
Speaking broadly, I'm a bit puzzled that people are upset about this. I mean we did a black Cinderella before. And a black Mercutio. And an all black Wizard of Oz?It's not exactly a new concept.

go without saying this. Baz Luhrmann's Romeo + Juilet... ambitious but not particularly good. Harold Perrineau's Mercutio in that movie... one of the best portrayals of Mercutio ever.

I'm not even remotely upset that a black actress got the role of the Little Mermaid, i'm more vividly disappointed in the fact they're making a live action version when the original cartoon one is perfect.

Same with The Lion King and Beauty and the Beast, it's just doing the masterpieces dirty. Those animators and artists did so much hard work in those movies, and here, we have Disney selling their brand for a quick buck.

Honestly, I worry that Disney is going to butcher more and more originals if it means any way of getting profit now.

Caramel Frappe:
I'm not even remotely upset that a black actress got the role of the Little Mermaid, i'm more vividly disappointed in the fact they're making a live action version when the original cartoon one is perfect.

There's nothing wrong with remaking it, even if it is live-action. I'd totally be up for a Little Mermaid remake that actually remains faithfull to the fairy tale and that creates some new interesting visuals. But we all know Disney is doing this just to sell us the same movie again.

I'm interested to see where they're gonna go once the renaissance well is tapped out -- Are they gonna do a live-action remake of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet? Or are they going to jump right to Frozen?

Casual Shinji:

Caramel Frappe:
I'm not even remotely upset that a black actress got the role of the Little Mermaid, i'm more vividly disappointed in the fact they're making a live action version when the original cartoon one is perfect.

There's nothing wrong with remaking it, even if it is live-action. I'd totally be up for a Little Mermaid remake that actually remains faithfull to the fairy tale and that creates some new interesting visuals. But we all know Disney is doing this just to sell us the same movie again.

I'm interested to see where they're gonna go once the renaissance well is tapped out -- Are they gonna do a live-action remake of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet? Or are they going to jump right to Frozen?

Live Action Frozen?

Ugggggggggh

Kyrian007:
Baz Luhrmann's Romeo + Juilet... ambitious but not particularly good.

Not good?

NOT GOOD?!

LIAR!

Casual Shinji:
Are they gonna do a live-action remake of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet?

https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/treasure-planet-liveaction-remake-works-disney/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

Hawki:

Casual Shinji:
Are they gonna do a live-action remake of Atlantis: The Lost Empire and Treasure Planet?

https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/treasure-planet-liveaction-remake-works-disney/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

Oh my god, I was fucking joking. Why the hell would they even bother, that movie was a complete box office flop.

Thaluikhain:

Sure. But I think that there already is a white Disney Princess. Possibly more than one.

And there's already a black princess. I'm happy with the idea of there being *more* black princesses. But new ones, not repurposed, race-swapped versions of existing and popular characters.

Thaluikhain:
Majority non-white in that "white" will still be the largest ethnicity, but will be outnumbered by everyone else if you lump "everyone else" (including mixed racial) in together. So, pretty ridiculous and unfounded.

We could go back and forth all day about when "biggest minority" and "majority" are equivalent or different but as far as I can see my point still stands.

Thaluikhain:
Hell, they just re-did Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast a few years ago with white people, I don't think we need to worry about Disney abandoning white people just yet. Or, you know, ever.

If Disney decided to re-do every movie with black princesses, ok, that'd be weird, but I don't see this becoming a trend.

I feel you're not getting my point. I'm not saying there should be any kind of minimum or maximum quota of princesses of whatever ethnicity. I'm saying that if race-swapping is bad (most people seem to think so) then it shouldn't happen ONCE. Not in any direction.

Hawki:
Those aren't really comparable to Little Mermaid. BatB is explicitly set in France, and in the context of the live-action film, likely in the early 19th century.

This is the point I'm probably getting too deep into the canon of fiction intended for young girls, but the Beast remake is set in what I assume is the 17th Century (they make reference to the Black Death) and it's a Disney version of France with an unashamedly anachronistic level of ethnic diversity - remember, the two "controversies" the film courted were 1) gay Lefou and 2) the first interracial kiss on a Disney movie[1], because apparently and bewilderingly that's still taboo in the States.

And you know what - fine! It's a fairy tale, not a documentary. Disney mostly makes movies for a Western market and they have to produce content their consumers will enjoy. This is a genre unto itself, and one where the protagonist frequently has a talking animal sidekick. I'm sometimes annoyed by creative licence elbowing aside historical accuracy in more straight laced works of fiction but Disney is one area where I won't even attempt to argue for realism. That's where I agree that people offering science-based theories on the correct colour for mermaid skin are barking up the wrong tree entirely.

[1] Wait, what about Pocahontas? I guess they mean just live action

ObsidianJones:
I feel bad having to answer something I moved on from, but here I am again.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

ObsidianJones:
You do also realize that those sentences can easily be used to prove the point of the Black Ariel

Yes I do, and I acknowledged it. My point was that they can't simultaneously be compelling arguments FOR black Ariel and at the same time ammunition to blast the "racists" arguing for white Ariel to remain unchanged.

ObsidianJones:
Yes. It really does. It really sucks when you're an 7 year old boy and you write comic book stories with you as a hero, and then you change your race because you think only superheroes can be white. Because that's what the comic books at the time show you.

Dude, I sympathise and I accept there was/is an inequality. But let's not overstate the case to the point of dishonesty, OK? Unless you were reading comics in the 60s or earlier then you WOULD have seen black heroes. Not major heroes, I'll grant you, typically they were supporting or ensemble cast members. But black heroes have been appearing in comics and cartoons since the 70s.

ObsidianJones:
And I'm not following that it 'should apply for minority kids'. It's always applied for minority kids. I would be shocked if you somehow unearthed this mass of minority kid protagonists that gave anywhere enough representation to justify a calming down of the push for diversity. In fact, I invite you to do that. Enough with the thought exercises. Let's get some action, right?

You're misrepresenting me. I'm saying "diversity shouldn't be achieved by simplistic quick fixes like sex- or race-swapping", you're hearing "everything's fine and should never change".

ObsidianJones:
You conflate "having some representation" as "more important".

Not true. I wish, I just WISH, people would read the words I type and take them at face value instead of running away with a narrative of their own making. I've said multiple times that I think representation is important, and that I hope we achieve MORE, and MORE DIVERSE, representation, by expanding the set of characters, settings, and stories being told.

But you know what, evidently somebody (a whole room of somebodies, as I said before) decided it was "more important" to make Ariel black than to keep her white. There are obvious pros and cons for this; there are benefits to keeping Ariel white and there are benefits to making her black. People will have met, discussed, weighed up these two competing sets of benefits. And they evidently found it was "more important" to make Ariel black. Unless you think a multi-billion dollar, global corporation like Disney makes these kind of decisions by flipping a coin?

ObsidianJones:
Black Ariel has nothing really to do with saying white people aren't important. It's troubling that you think that way, but I assure you that you're apart of a small minority that thinks that way.

We're going "meta" now, bear with me. You've heard of microaggressions, right? For a long time I assumed that was a coded way of minority groups tacitly admitting that the stuff annoying them was no longer a matter of life and death, or even outright hostility, but just first world problems like airplane seats not being designed for 600lb backsides or "flesh-coloured" band-aids not exactly matching your skin tone. My outlook on this has changed somewhat in the last few years and I now accept that some groups experience a background hum of suspicion, or hostility, or deprecation that plays out in a myriad of little ways in everyday life. It's my contention that "historically privileged" groups like males and white people are waking up the to the fact that they experience this too. A little inequality here. A small injustice (for the greater good, naturally) there. Another "dopey dad" trope going unchallenged in the media. Another "woke" columnist being applauded for saying "y'all whypipo is the devil" in 500 words. And, yeah, another character swapped out for an underrepresented gender or race, and if we don't clap and honk like seals we get called "angry internet racists" by Buzzfeed. At the end of the day, my beef is not about a gosh darn fictional mermaid - but it's emblematic.

You think I'm part of a small minority on this? That's the kind of hubris that got Trump elected in 2016. Don't believe for a minute that only a hardcore fringe could possibly disagree with you.

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