[Politics] Dumb People Protest and Look Dumb

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/07/06/white-nationalist-linked-proud-boys-outnumbered-counter-protesters/1661585001/

https://www.thedailybeast.com/proud-boys-dc-free-speech-rally-goes-off-with-a-whimper

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/proud-boys-all-out-dc-protests_n_5d215ec8e4b04c4814154714

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/right-wing-groups-plan-freedom-plaza-rally-amid-heavy-dc-police-presence-to-prevent-violence/2019/07/06/40309e4e-9f68-11e9-9ed4-c9089972ad5a_story.html

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/free-speech-rally-conservatives/

Amazing how much more peaceful protests and counter-protests get when police are actually doing their jobs to keep protest groups separate and intervene to prevent rioting, isn't it?

Amazing how stupid alt-right protesters look when they're simply allowed to speak, and the news of the day isn't about rioting, isn't it?

Amazing how this has been a consistent and reliable pattern for 40 years, and only in the last two to three has it been disrupted by black bloc violence leading to an escalating and expanding cycle of violence which permits alt-right apologia in the mass media, isn't it?

Why, it's almost as if violently and preemptively disrupting protest is counter-productive and ultimately self-defeating in any conceivable way, unless your vested interest is in that cycle of violence as opposed to the defeat of far-right ideology in the marketplace of ideas.

Stop defending Nazis. Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies. Stop pretending that Nazi ideology deserves a platform for spreading their inherently violent ideology.

Anyone who wants to actually criticize violence would never defend Nazi speech.

Saelune:
Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

Saelune:

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
Stop blaming the people standing up to bullies instead of the bullies.

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Eacaraxe:

Funny thing about what I'm talking about. There were people there standing up to "the bullies". More than two of them for every "bully", according to the news articles. And they were perfectly able to resoundingly defeat "the bullies" without a single punch, bike lock, or milkshake, sending them prematurely skulking away aboard private buses. I have no problem with them, wholeheartedly support their right to counter-protest, support their counter-protest, and am glad they turned out as they did.

Meanwhile, the other side had high notes such as "dude whines about Tinder" and "Gavin McInnes gets stuck in plastic toy handcuffs".

Just stop and consider how stupid one has to be to get stuck in a pair of plastic toy handcuffs. That's the level of intelligence at work here. These people would be national laughingstocks as they should be, but for black bloc violence. Which is what I'm calling out here, black bloc bullshit. Don't pretend otherwise.

No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.

Gay Rights movement existed before Stonewall. And they tried REALLY DAMN HARD to 'not offend anyone' as groups of gay men made demonstrations, careful to not have anyone be too close to eachother so as to 'not rub their gayness in anyone's faces'. No one cared.

Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

As for black rights, it took a very deadly war to end slavery. MAYBE slavery could have ended without violence against white people (cause violence against blacks was inherent in slavery) but then it might have taken till, oh, I dunno, 1950's? If even that.

If you are going to tell me violence didn't help equal rights, then I can tell you, you don't know shit about history.

Silentpony:
No one cared about gay rights until Police got their asses kicked.

I think you mean African American rights? The gay movement has been historically non-violent, and even when violence happens groups like the GAA and GLF were quick to denounce it, and no major change was ever felt in the wake of said violence.

Also the violence of the civil rights movement didn't actually help the cause. The majority of progress was done in backroom dealings and peaceful demonstrations.[/quote]

Oh, Dear Space Buddha No.

The Stonewall Riots where a thing.

You don't grow up in the City and have gay family members and friends and not know of the Stonewall Riots.

Cops used to blow off steam by raiding the Gay club Du Jour and beating the shit out of patrons because they would never explain why the police did that to them. Stonewall Riots were just the most visible action.

Saelune:
SNIP

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn't start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn?t start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

Without the violence, those organizations wouldn't exist. If you want to help progress, stop defending the bigots and stop attacking the people actually seeking real change.

As long as racists criticize the people standing up to racists, as long as people condemn Antifa instead of Republican Terrorism, as long as people blame women for wanting to not be fucking raped, as long as people defend CHILDREN BEING TORTURED BY REPUBLICANS, then peaceful change wont happen.

It is the 'centrists' who are the obstacles to peaceful change.

Silentpony:

Saelune:
SNIP

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

You miss my point. Violence did happen, sure. Violence always happens in everything ever all the time.

My point is it didn't actually make things better. Police didn't suddenly back off the Gay scene because some officers were fought. "Though the Stonewall uprising didn?t start the gay rights movement, it was a galvanizing force for LGBT political activism, leading to numerous gay rights organizations, including the Gay Liberation Front, Human Rights Campaign, GLAAD (formerly Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), and PFLAG (formerly Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays)"

Those organizations did more than the riots ever did. Yes you can argue the riots caused those groups to form, but only 'cause the riots didn't achieve anything other than show riots cant achieve anything.

Real rights progression has always happened legislatively, slowly, and usually shadily in backrooms. The riots was just the bread/circus part of it.

That's a subjective thought.

One could also argue that Gays gathering and saying we're not going to cower in alleys and take it any more showed that they weren't a push over force. Not just to the rest of the world, but to themselves. That they had brothers and sisters (and fluid) who would stand with them in the face of injustice.

There's one thing to speak about how unfair things are. There's another thing to stand and soak up blows while dishing some out in response to how unfair things are. When you see someone bleed for your cause, you join them.

You cant fix a problem if you don't know it exists. People who think 'things were better back then' are ignorant people who never knew of the problems.

And now people are tired of being reminded how fucked up everything is and want to go back to blissful ignorance. Well too fucking bad. Things don't get better until people complain. That is a fact.

The problems that exist today are rarely new, we just now give them an actual voice. Unfortunately people are also giving Nazis a voice. They did not go away for 60+ years, they just now feel like they have the ability to speak out again, and THAT is a problem.

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Saelune:
SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Silentpony:

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Saelune:
SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

Saelune:
Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

That's definitely a take on Stonewall, I'll give you that.

Never mind the Genovese family's role in all this, the violence by patrons and protesters was wildly exaggerated to propagandize against the gay community, that actions on the protesters' part were mostly vandalism and civil disobedience, and a huge chunk of the "liberation" part of "gay liberation" (as well as the second prong of the GAA's and GLF's mission) was liberation from the mob.

You'd think the first hint would be the words that actually started the riot: "they [Tony Lauria] didn't pay off the cops".

That moment when you internalize and push fifty-year-old anti-gay propaganda used to justify violence against the LGBT community, to justify violent counter-protest today in the name of the LGBT community.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Saelune:
SNIP

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
Then NYPD raided Stonewall and the patrons had enough and fought back. Now people cared. I do not doubt many people criticized those gay people as 'violent extremists' though.

That's definitely a take on Stonewall, I'll give you that.

You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts. You are actively proving why I should never trust your word.

Never mind the Genovese family's role in all this, the violence by patrons and protesters was wildly exaggerated to propagandize against the gay community, that actions on the protesters' part were mostly vandalism and civil disobedience, and a huge chunk of the "liberation" part of "gay liberation" (as well as the second prong of the GAA's and GLF's mission) was liberation from the mob.

You'd think the first hint would be the words that actually started the riot: "they [Tony Lauria] didn't pay off the cops".

That moment when you internalize and push fifty-year-old anti-gay propaganda used to justify violence against the LGBT community, to justify violent counter-protest today in the name of the LGBT community.

You are trying to justify Anti-LGBT sentiment with your distortion of history and your dismissal of the LGBT rights movement.

Stop pushing your 'alternative facts' to justify condemning actual civil rights activists.

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

I'm not defending Trump, I'm saying if you want to make a difference understand what actually works. Pulling out your sword and yelling "CHARGE!" only makes you feel like a hero, but its not actually heroic. You want to do something for those kids? Start a law firm, hire lawyers, take on the kids pro-bono, become their voice. Holding court online and pretending to go to war won't help.

Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

You should probably move to Canada, if you don't feel safe in your home. It's basically a liberal socialist paradise, and refugees are actually moving there, instead of staying in America.

Saelune:

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

Speaking as a sexually :thinking: man of latin/dubious native american heritage, I feel pretty good in that regard. Speaking as a rural Californian, of course.

Silentpony:

ObsidianJones:
SNIP

While it does matter to stand up, the real response is "okay let me call my lawyer"
That's something the police don't want to hear. That's interviews, dispositions, testimonies, judgements even if in the police favor that takes years to resolve and costs millions. That's the real pressure for change - legality and cost.

Lawyer? My dude, just being who they WERE was illegal.

At the time, homosexual acts remained illegal in every state except Illinois, and bars and restaurants could get shut down for having gay employees or serving gay patrons. Most gay bars and clubs in New York at the time (including the Stonewall) were operated by the Mafia, who paid corruptible police officers to look the other way and blackmailed wealthy gay patrons by threatening to ?out? them.

(Source)

The Homosexuality Conduct Act was struck down as recently as 2003.

Like... going to a lawyer and saying "people are treating me wrongly due to me being gay" was tantamount of saying "people are treating me wrongly because I stole a lot of stuff". You were confessing to an actual crime and asked a Lawyer to represent you.

Marik2:
You should probably move to Canada, if you don't feel safe in your home. It's basically a liberal socialist paradise, and refugees are actually moving there, instead of staying in America.

Hey, then I won't be alone. Hopefully in two years, this place will be in my rearview mirror.

I'm not exactly a love and tolerance leftist and I've made this quite clear, I think hippies are the worst thing that ever happened to the western left, but you know what? When non-violence is enough to get the job done, that's great. Wonderful. The way it should be. I agree that violence is never something we should be comfortable with. But you're living in a dream world if you think it's never necessary. It doesn't work that way, it never has worked that way, no society ever managed to successfully tolerate its enemies to death.

Anti-fascism and anti-fascist violence isn't some unhealthy overreaction. It's society's immune system kicking into gear to deal with a threat that couldn't be dealt with through conventional means. Considering how succesfully fascists subverted not only the political establishment but also large parts of the media and law enforcement (the latter of which also represents a type of violence, if one that we take for granted) these conventional means are simply not a viable option.

Sometimes protest is enough. Sometimes non compliance is enough. Sometimes boycott is enough. And sometimes it isn't. And sometimes it's necessary to remind them that they should be afraid, not us.

Oh thank you Dale Earnhardt and Baby Jesus for the bounty I am about to receive.

Saelune:
You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts.

Famed fake news purveyor New York Times:

...In fact, the Stonewall operation was the work of a Police Department deputy inspector, Seymour Pine, and officers from the morals unit, and they carried it out without the knowledge of the officers of the local police precinct, whom they suspected of taking payoffs from the Stonewall and other Mafia-run gay bars in the Village.

Deputy Inspector Pine had two stated reasons for the raid: the Stonewall was selling liquor without a license, which it was, and it was being used by a Mafia blackmail ring that was setting up gay patrons who worked on Wall Street, which also seems likely.

The owner of the Stonewall, Tony Lauria, was reputed to be a front man for Matty Ianniello (known as "Matty the Horse"), a capo in the Genovese crime family who oversaw a string of clubs in the city. New York's gay-bar scene at the time was a corrupt system apparently designed to benefit mobster owners, who served watered-down drinks at inflated prices, often made with ill-gotten liquor from truck hijackings.

Notorious Russian bot front PBS:

Already a strong presence in New York, members of the Mafia saw a business opportunity in catering to the otherwise shunned gay population. By the mid-1960s, the Genovese crime family controlled the majority of gay bars in Greenwich Village, a neighborhood in southern Manhattan that was quickly becoming a hub for the city's burgeoning gay community. In 1966, young Genovese family member Tony Lauria purchased the Stonewall Inn, then a low-earning 'straight' bar and restaurant. "Fat Tony," as he was known, renovated at low cost and reopened the Christopher Street club as a gay bar, controlling everything from the jukebox to the cigarettes. He bribed New York's Sixth Police Precinct with around $1,200 a month to turn a blind eye to the goings on at the establishment.

[...]

Stonewall's owners also reportedly engaged in extortion. Employees singled out wealthy patrons who were not public about their sexuality, and blackmailed them for large sums of money with the threat of being 'outed.' This practice eventually became the most profitable aspect of the Mafia's club management.

Daily Beast? More like Daily Stormer, amirite or amirite?

A pamphlet soon appeared urging gay New Yorkers to "get the Mafia and the cops out of gay bars." Its author was Craig Rodwell, owner of the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop in Greenwich Village, and an early proponent of the need to stand up to the police and the Genovese crime family, which at that time controlled most Greenwich Village gay bars, including the Stonewall Inn.
It's a measure of the courage displayed by the denizens of the Stonewall and their supporters that they were, in effect, taking on two gangs: the Mafia and the New York Police Department. That's because back then the NYPD often functioned as a legally sanctioned gang that harassed gay men and women.

[...]

And the mob knew how to eliminate any competition. "They knew if they got the right police in their pocket, the police could shut down any bar," Hortis says. If that failed, threats always worked. A member of "the family" would show up to either shut down a competing gay bar or just take it over. "Ultimately it's the threat of violence that backs up everything," Hortis stresses.

[...]

Then there was the potential for blackmail. New York City school teachers, for example, would lose their jobs if they were arrested in a police raid on a gay bar or were otherwise publicly outed.
Federal employees also were vulnerable, as were closeted celebrities and wealthy Wall Street types.
In retrospect, it was inevitable that the Genovese crime family would run the Village's gay bars because the Village was the Genoveses' home turf.
"That was their backyard," Hortis explains. "So you have a vulnerable, illegal industry in the backyard of the Mafia. Of course they're going to exploit that-of course they're going to take advantage of it and try to make money off of it."
The Genovese family was in the gay bar business long before the Stonewall. In fact, Vito Genovese's second wife, Anna, was a partner in several legendary lower Manhattan drag bars of the '30s, including the Howdy Club, the 181 Club, and Club 84, whose patrons included Greta Garbo and Judy Garland.

[...]

"When the State forced gay and transgender people into the closet," Hortis says, "they were driven into the clutches of organized crime. LGBT people were fighting not only the State, but exploitation by the Mafia. The lesson is that there will always be gay people in every society. When the State tries to suppress them, they won't just disappear; the harms to them will only be compounded."

Nobody knows vice like Vice.

The Mafia controlled most gay bars due to their illegal status, and extracted a monetary premium from the gay community. This recognized both the legal risk the Mob was taking and the near-monopoly status it enjoyed. After all, where else were gay folks going to meet? There were often high cover charges and minimum drink requirements. Moreover, gay men were at risk of blackmail from their Mob overlords. The Mob's exploitation of the gay community was among the reasons for the 1969 protests outside the Stonewall Inn. Indeed, after the Stonewall protests, once of the principal goals of the activist groups such as Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front was to get organized crime out of the gay bars.

[...]

The gay bars were part of the vice rackets, and that also included the flesh trade. For example, Ed "the Skull" Murphy, a former pro wrestler who became a gay bar bouncer, had a proclivity for young boys, and he pimped them out through bars at which he worked. New York law enforcement investigated the mob's role in running gay bars and pimping underage boys pursuant to Operation Together in the mid 1970s but according to Assistant District Attorney Paul Flaxman "top brass" shut it down right before the indictment stage because it implicated powerful people in politics, business, and society.

I'm surprised they covered it because it's not about Hitler's Secret Whatever, but hey, here's the earlier-linked History Channel article too. I guess.

To operate its gay bars, the Mafia greased the palms of the NYPD. "Fat Tony," for one, paid New York's 6th Precinct approximately $1,200 a week, in exchange for the police agreeing to turn a blind eye to the "indecent conduct" occurring behind closed doors.

Not that the police didn't still raid the LGBT establishments. But first they would tip off the owners, who told them the best time to come by. Raids often occurred in the early afternoon, when few customers were present, so businesses had enough time to resume normal operations by night. David Carter explains in his book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution, that during a typical raid, bar owners would change the lights from blue to white, warning customers to stop dancing and drinking. Patrons were lined up and required to show identification; if they didn't have any, they could be arrested. Men were hauled in for dressing in drag and women for wearing less than three pieces of traditional "feminine" clothing. Sometimes the cops even went to the extreme measure of sending female officers into the bathroom to verify people's gender.

[...]

The Mob designed the operations to maximize profits-from the cheap, watered-down alcohol sold at high mark-ups to the jukebox and bootleg cigarettes. In addition, says Phillip Crawford Jr. in his book, The Mafia and the Gays, the mob also plied the gay flesh trade, with bouncers "pimping out" patrons. But while the NYPD attempted to crack down on Mafia-run prostitution in the mid 1970s, during something known as "Operation Together," the effort was eventually shut down in 1977. Apparently, too many high-powered individuals-including Mafia members, police officers and big Hollywood names-were implicated as clients.

Some scholars have argued the infamous Stonewall riots that sparked the nationwide LGBT movement were as much a resistance against the mob's exploitation of the gay community as they were a struggle against police harassment and discriminatory laws. Indeed, a handwritten message in chalk on a boarded-up window of the Stonewall Inn after the 1969 riots read, "Gay Prohibition Corupt$ Cop$ Feed$ Mafia." Two of the main gay-rights organizations that came out of the riots, the Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front, actively championed getting organized crime out of gay bars.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Saelune:
Or I dunno, maybe people could vote against the child torturer/rapist/murderer in 2020, then the new person could abolish those camps, since 'violence is wrong' so it would be wrong for people to come together and literally tear down the camps, right? Oh and Trump should go to jail for being a child torturer/rapist/murderer.

I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

So you want the rest of us to go to war, to violently resist, to rise up and stop Donald Trump, to risk our lives and freedom...all the while you're unwilling to just move to Pennsylvania and just vote?

Silentpony:

Saelune:

Silentpony:
I agree. Are you going to move out of New York to a swing state so your vote will matter more?

I barely feel safe here, let alone any place that actively encourages right-wing 'values'.

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

So you want the rest of us to go to war, to violently resist, to rise up and stop Donald Trump, to risk our lives and freedom...all the while you're unwilling to just move to Pennsylvania and just vote?

I want people to vote against Trump. Its Republicans who want non-soldiers who refuse to fight and die for this country to tell others to fight and die for them.

Eacaraxe:
Oh thank you Dale Earnhardt and Baby Jesus for the bounty I am about to receive.

Saelune:
You are actively trying to spin history with fake facts.

Famed fake news purveyor New York Times:

...In fact, the Stonewall operation was the work of a Police Department deputy inspector, Seymour Pine, and officers from the morals unit, and they carried it out without the knowledge of the officers of the local police precinct, whom they suspected of taking payoffs from the Stonewall and other Mafia-run gay bars in the Village.

Deputy Inspector Pine had two stated reasons for the raid: the Stonewall was selling liquor without a license, which it was, and it was being used by a Mafia blackmail ring that was setting up gay patrons who worked on Wall Street, which also seems likely.

The owner of the Stonewall, Tony Lauria, was reputed to be a front man for Matty Ianniello (known as ?Matty the Horse?), a capo in the Genovese crime family who oversaw a string of clubs in the city. New York?s gay-bar scene at the time was a corrupt system apparently designed to benefit mobster owners, who served watered-down drinks at inflated prices, often made with ill-gotten liquor from truck hijackings.

Notorious Russian bot front PBS:

Already a strong presence in New York, members of the Mafia saw a business opportunity in catering to the otherwise shunned gay population. By the mid-1960s, the Genovese crime family controlled the majority of gay bars in Greenwich Village, a neighborhood in southern Manhattan that was quickly becoming a hub for the city's burgeoning gay community. In 1966, young Genovese family member Tony Lauria purchased the Stonewall Inn, then a low-earning 'straight' bar and restaurant. "Fat Tony," as he was known, renovated at low cost and reopened the Christopher Street club as a gay bar, controlling everything from the jukebox to the cigarettes. He bribed New York's Sixth Police Precinct with around $1,200 a month to turn a blind eye to the goings on at the establishment.

[...]

Stonewall's owners also reportedly engaged in extortion. Employees singled out wealthy patrons who were not public about their sexuality, and blackmailed them for large sums of money with the threat of being 'outed.' This practice eventually became the most profitable aspect of the Mafia's club management.

Daily Beast? More like Daily Stormer, amirite or amirite?

A pamphlet soon appeared urging gay New Yorkers to ?get the Mafia and the cops out of gay bars.? Its author was Craig Rodwell, owner of the Oscar Wilde Memorial Bookshop in Greenwich Village, and an early proponent of the need to stand up to the police and the Genovese crime family, which at that time controlled most Greenwich Village gay bars, including the Stonewall Inn.
It?s a measure of the courage displayed by the denizens of the Stonewall and their supporters that they were, in effect, taking on two gangs: the Mafia and the New York Police Department. That?s because back then the NYPD often functioned as a legally sanctioned gang that harassed gay men and women.

[...]

And the mob knew how to eliminate any competition. ?They knew if they got the right police in their pocket, the police could shut down any bar,? Hortis says. If that failed, threats always worked. A member of ?the family? would show up to either shut down a competing gay bar or just take it over. ?Ultimately it?s the threat of violence that backs up everything,? Hortis stresses.

[...]

Then there was the potential for blackmail. New York City school teachers, for example, would lose their jobs if they were arrested in a police raid on a gay bar or were otherwise publicly outed.
Federal employees also were vulnerable, as were closeted celebrities and wealthy Wall Street types.
In retrospect, it was inevitable that the Genovese crime family would run the Village?s gay bars because the Village was the Genoveses? home turf.
?That was their backyard,? Hortis explains. ?So you have a vulnerable, illegal industry in the backyard of the Mafia. Of course they?re going to exploit that?of course they?re going to take advantage of it and try to make money off of it.?
The Genovese family was in the gay bar business long before the Stonewall. In fact, Vito Genovese?s second wife, Anna, was a partner in several legendary lower Manhattan drag bars of the ?30s, including the Howdy Club, the 181 Club, and Club 84, whose patrons included Greta Garbo and Judy Garland.

[...]

"When the State forced gay and transgender people into the closet,? Hortis says, ?they were driven into the clutches of organized crime. LGBT people were fighting not only the State, but exploitation by the Mafia. The lesson is that there will always be gay people in every society. When the State tries to suppress them, they won't just disappear; the harms to them will only be compounded."

Nobody knows vice like Vice.

The Mafia controlled most gay bars due to their illegal status, and extracted a monetary premium from the gay community. This recognized both the legal risk the Mob was taking and the near-monopoly status it enjoyed. After all, where else were gay folks going to meet? There were often high cover charges and minimum drink requirements. Moreover, gay men were at risk of blackmail from their Mob overlords. The Mob's exploitation of the gay community was among the reasons for the 1969 protests outside the Stonewall Inn. Indeed, after the Stonewall protests, once of the principal goals of the activist groups such as Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front was to get organized crime out of the gay bars.

[...]

The gay bars were part of the vice rackets, and that also included the flesh trade. For example, Ed "the Skull" Murphy, a former pro wrestler who became a gay bar bouncer, had a proclivity for young boys, and he pimped them out through bars at which he worked. New York law enforcement investigated the mob's role in running gay bars and pimping underage boys pursuant to Operation Together in the mid 1970s but according to Assistant District Attorney Paul Flaxman "top brass" shut it down right before the indictment stage because it implicated powerful people in politics, business, and society.

I'm surprised they covered it because it's not about Hitler's Secret Whatever, but hey, here's the earlier-linked History Channel article too. I guess.

To operate its gay bars, the Mafia greased the palms of the NYPD. ?Fat Tony,? for one, paid New York?s 6th Precinct approximately $1,200 a week, in exchange for the police agreeing to turn a blind eye to the ?indecent conduct? occurring behind closed doors.

Not that the police didn?t still raid the LGBT establishments. But first they would tip off the owners, who told them the best time to come by. Raids often occurred in the early afternoon, when few customers were present, so businesses had enough time to resume normal operations by night. David Carter explains in his book Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution, that during a typical raid, bar owners would change the lights from blue to white, warning customers to stop dancing and drinking. Patrons were lined up and required to show identification; if they didn?t have any, they could be arrested. Men were hauled in for dressing in drag and women for wearing less than three pieces of traditional ?feminine? clothing. Sometimes the cops even went to the extreme measure of sending female officers into the bathroom to verify people?s gender.

[...]

The Mob designed the operations to maximize profits?from the cheap, watered-down alcohol sold at high mark-ups to the jukebox and bootleg cigarettes. In addition, says Phillip Crawford Jr. in his book, The Mafia and the Gays, the mob also plied the gay flesh trade, with bouncers ?pimping out? patrons. But while the NYPD attempted to crack down on Mafia-run prostitution in the mid 1970s, during something known as ?Operation Together,? the effort was eventually shut down in 1977. Apparently, too many high-powered individuals?including Mafia members, police officers and big Hollywood names?were implicated as clients.

Some scholars have argued the infamous Stonewall riots that sparked the nationwide LGBT movement were as much a resistance against the mob?s exploitation of the gay community as they were a struggle against police harassment and discriminatory laws. Indeed, a handwritten message in chalk on a boarded-up window of the Stonewall Inn after the 1969 riots read, ?Gay Prohibition Corupt$ Cop$ Feed$ Mafia.? Two of the main gay-rights organizations that came out of the riots, the Gay Activists Alliance and Gay Liberation Front, actively championed getting organized crime out of gay bars.

...And this proves me wrong...how?

Leg End:

Saelune:

In case you havent noticed, it is not safe in the US for LGBT or non-white people.

Speaking as a sexually :thinking: man of latin/dubious native american heritage, I feel pretty good in that regard. Speaking as a rural Californian, of course.

I am sure Milo and Ben Carson and Jenner feel safe too.

Saelune:
I am sure Milo

Pretty sure Antifa wants to lynch him.

and Ben Carson

Not sure why this specific example.

and Jenner feel safe too.

I think Jenner is the one making people feel unsafe with that driving. Why Jenner specifically though? Is it a money thing, or?

Leg End:

Saelune:
I am sure Milo

Pretty sure Antifa wants to lynch him.

and Ben Carson

Not sure why this specific example.

and Jenner feel safe too.

I think Jenner is the one making people feel unsafe with that driving. Why Jenner specifically though? Is it a money thing, or?

So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.

Ben Carson is a black Republican.

Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.

Saelune:
So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.

Not really, because them trying to riot in my neck of the woods would get the armed response of every single person living within a mile. Feels pretty nice living in an area where neighbors look out for each other. My point though is that he's facing actual danger from the supposed leftists.

Ben Carson is a black Republican.

And that negates people wanting to lynch him how?

Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.

...You're definitely going to have to explain that one to me.

Leg End:

Saelune:
So you don't feel threatened by Antifa. Good to know.

Not really, because them trying to riot in my neck of the woods would get the armed response of every single person living within a mile. Feels pretty nice living in an area where neighbors look out for each other. My point though is that he's facing actual danger from the supposed leftists.

Ben Carson is a black Republican.

And that negates people wanting to lynch him how?

Jenner is anti-LGBT, despite being LGBT.

...You're definitely going to have to explain that one to me.

Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.

Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.

Saelune:
Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.

I'm saying it, because people wanting to lynch him for his race are probably wanting to do so regardless of his opinions. Thankfully, such people are a minority. Downside, more people want to lynch him for being a Republican.

Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.

Yet she's clearly pro-LGBT and has denounced Trump for his stances. Don't gotta agree with everything a party does to agree with them on a lot of other shit. You of all people should know that by now.

Leg End:

Saelune:
Neither of us said anyone wanted to lynch Ben Carson.

I'm saying it, because people wanting to lynch him for his race are probably wanting to do so regardless of his opinions. Thankfully, such people are a minority. Downside, more people want to lynch him for being a Republican.

Jenner is a Republican, and the Republican party have put in a ton of effort into opposing LGBT rights. It is one of their most popular political platforms. That's not an opinion, that is an observation.

Yet she's clearly pro-LGBT and has denounced Trump for his stances. Don't gotta agree with everything a party does to agree with them on a lot of other shit. You of all people should know that by now.

Citation needed on that first part.

They will have to prove it by opposing the Republicans in 2020. Only then will I think otherwise of them. If you vote for people who are anti-LGBT, YOU are anti-LGBT.

Saelune:
*snip*

It's almost amusing that you're just as much of a totalitarian as the people you rage about, yet are not self-aware enough to recognise it.

Almost.

DarthCoercis:

Saelune:
*snip*

It's almost amusing that you're just as much of a totalitarian as the people you rage about, yet are not self-aware enough to recognise it.

Almost.

You never responded to my PM from like, last year. Like, you never even looked at it.

Also voting for something is the most literally direct way to support something, if literally voting for something doesn't count as supporting it, then what does?

Saelune:
...And this proves me wrong...how?

You're pushing the stonewall myth, which is actually an historically-revisionist thermonuclear take that underestimates the level of victimization suffered by the LGBT community at the time and the institutional forces arrayed against them, giving the Stonewall protesters less credit than they deserve, and calling the actual background of it anti-LGBT fake news? If you're only looking at the actions of the NYPD you're not even telling half the story, and you're not even telling the important part of the story.

Stonewall wasn't just a protest against anti-gay laws or police raids. They were protesting mob exploitation of the gay community, and police corruption as well. That's why the gathered crowd threw fistfuls of coins at the cops, and why the words that actually kicked off the riot were "they didn't pay off the cops". Because the cops were fucking dirty, and the raid was thought to be a shakedown.

Stonewall was a mob property, and the mob was blackmailing patrons, forcing them into prostitution, running child sex trafficking out of it, and paying off the cops to look the other way and stage fake raids to maintain appearances. Meanwhile, the Wagner mayoral admin was eager to look tough on organized crime during an election year, and was targeting gay bars because they made for easy, politically-acceptable, mob targets.

And indeed, the level of violence at Stonewall by the members of the gay community has been greatly exaggerated. The NYT article I linked earlier was a retrospective by the Village Voice writer who originally covered the story. Here's his original article -- mind the language, it was written in '69 after all.

It began as a small raid ? only two patrolmen, two detectives, and two policewomen were involved. But as the patrons trapped inside were released one by one, a crowd started to gather on the street. It was initially a festive gathering, composed mostly of Stonewall boys who were waiting around for friends still inside or to see what was going to happen. Cheers would go up as favorites would emerge from the door, strike a pose and swish by the detective with a ?Hello there, fella.? The stars were in their element. Wrists were limp, hair was primped, and reactions to the applause were classic. ?I gave them the gay power bit, and they loved it, girls.? ?Have you seen Maxine? Where is my wife ? I told her not to go far.?

Suddenly the paddywagon arrived and the mood of the crowd changed. Three of the more blatant queens ? in full drag ? were loaded inside, along with the bartender and doorman, to a chorus of catcalls and boos from the crowd. A cry went up to push the paddywagon over, but it drove away before anything could happen. With its exit, the action waned momentarily. The next person to come out was a dyke, and she put up a struggle ? from car to door to car again. It was at that moment that the scene became explosive. Limp wrists were forgotten. Beer cans and bottles were heaved at the windows, and a rain of coins descended on the cops. At the height of the action, a bearded figure was plucked from the crowd and dragged inside. It was Dave Van Ronk, who had come from the Lion?s Head to see what was going on. He was charged with throwing an object at the police.

Three cops were necessary to get Van Ronk away from the crowd and into the Stonewall. The exit left no cops on the street, and almost by signal the crowd erupted into cobblestone and bottle heaving. The reaction was solid: they were pissed. The trashcan I was standing on was nearly yanked out from under me as a kid tried to grab it for use in the window smashing melee. From nowhere came an uprooted parking meter ? used as a battering ram on the Stonewall door. I heard several cries of ?Let?s get some gas,? but the blaze of flame which soon appeared in the window of the Stonewall was still a shock. As the wood barrier behind the glass was beaten open, the cops inside turned a firehose on the crowd. Several kids took the opportunity to cavort in the spray, and their momentary glee served to stave off what was rapidly becoming a full-scale attack.

[...]

The real action Saturday was that night in the street. Friday night?s crowd had returned and was being led in ?gay power? cheers by a group of gay cheerleaders. ?We are the Stonewall girls/ We wear our hair in curls/ We have no underwear/ We show our pubic hairs!? The crowd was gathered across the street from the Stonewall and was growing with additions of onlookers, Eastsiders, and rough street people who saw a chance for a little action. Though dress had changed from Friday night?s gayery to Saturday night street clothes, the scene was a command performance for queers. If Friday night had been pick-up night, Saturday was date night. Hand-holding, kissing, and posing accented each of the cheers with a homosexual liberation that had appeared only fleetingly on the street before. One-liners were as practiced as if they had ben used for years. ?I just want you all to know,? quipped a platinum blond with obvious glee, ?that sometimes being homosexual is a big pain in the ass.? Another allowed as how he had become a ?left-deviationist.? And on and on.

[...]

The people on the street were not to be coerced. ?Let?s go down the street and see what?s happening, girls,??someone yelled. And down the street went the crowd, smack into the Tactical Patrol Force, who had been called earlier to disperse the crowd and were walking west on Christopher from Sixth Avenue. Formed in a line, the TPF swept the crowd back to the corner of Waverly Place where they stopped. A stagnant situation there brought on some gay tomfoolery in the form of a chorus line facing the helmeted and club-carrying cops. Just as the line got into a full kick routine, the TPF advanced again and cleared the crowd of screaming gay powerites down Christopher to Seventh Avenue. The street and park were then held from both ends, and no one was allowed to enter ? naturally causing a fall-off in normal Saturday night business, even at the straight Lion?s Head and 55. The TPF positions in and around the square were held with only minor incident ? one busted head and a number of scattered arrest ? while the cops amused themselves by arbitrarily breaking up small groups of people up and down the avenue.

To that you can add this firsthand account.

Stonewall has become a symbol of the LGBTQ rights movement, but its storied history has also been mythologized in some ways. Jay said the violence at the Stonewall riots was not as intense as has been portrayed.

She said the accounts of what happened at the Stonewall have been greatly exaggerated. ?The window was intact. The door was intact. There were no parking meters lying around in the street. I didn?t see any overturned cars or burnt cars. But there was a lot of anger. And people were just talking and shouting and saying, ?What do we do? What do we do??? ?But people were not agreeing with the Mattachine sentiment anymore that we should just go home and be good and eventually straight people would accept us,? said Jay.

However real the violence by police, the two-day all-out Jets vs. Sharks street brawl it's made out to be today it was not. We're discussing a protest that can be summarized by the showdown of riot cop phalanxes versus...impromptu chorus lines.

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