[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

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Only learned of this last night, but relevant.

Saelune:
Only learned of this last night, but relevant.

You may want to look up the plot of that movie. That scene is the transformation of a failed and suicidal news anchor into a populist icon exploited by the entertainment industry.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
Only learned of this last night, but relevant.

Video snip

You may want to look up the plot of that movie. That scene is the transformation of a failed and suicidal news anchor into a populist icon exploited by the entertainment industry.

You may want to look up the plot of the Holocaust and Hitler's rise to power.

Saelune:
You may want to look up the plot of the Holocaust and Hitler's rise to power.

If you insist

Wikipedia: Propaganda in Nazi Germany:

Mein Kampf contains the blueprint of later Nazi propaganda efforts. Assessing his audience, Hitler writes in chapter VI:

"Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood.[5]"

As to the methods to be employed, he explains:

"Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side. (...) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (...) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.[5]"

Bolded emphasis is my own. Basically, if you'd like to follow the instructions of literally Hitler, you get people to disregard truth and instead focus in on the fact that they're as mad as hell, and they're not going to take this anymore.

Since you posted that clip with little context, I can't know exactly why you found it relevant to this discussion. But if you find that monologue resonates with your feelings, that means you aren't thinking straight.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
You may want to look up the plot of the Holocaust and Hitler's rise to power.

If you insist

Wikipedia: Propaganda in Nazi Germany:

Mein Kampf contains the blueprint of later Nazi propaganda efforts. Assessing his audience, Hitler writes in chapter VI:

"Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood.[5]"

As to the methods to be employed, he explains:

"Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side. (...) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (...) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula.[5]"

Bolded emphasis is my own. Basically, if you'd like to follow the instructions of literally Hitler, you get people to disregard truth and instead focus in on the fact that they're as mad as hell, and they're not going to take this anymore.

Since you posted that clip with little context, I can't know exactly why you found it relevant to this discussion. But if you find that monologue resonates with your feelings, that means you aren't thinking straight.

So you're saying that someone doing these things is acting like Hitler?

Saelune:

So you're saying that someone doing these things is acting like Hitler?

Yes.

Save yourself the trouble of saying "Trump is just like that." It doesn't move the argument.

Saelune:

The CoC here says bigotry is against the rules, but I am more likely to be punished for pointing out bigotry than bigotry is punished. I do not think the rules here are fairly followed. That defending concentration camps and child torture is more acceptable than being mad at bigotry is absurd.

But they do it POLITELY, so they win.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

So you're saying that someone doing these things is acting like Hitler?

Yes.

Save yourself the trouble of saying "Trump is just like that." It doesn't move the argument.

It does though.

Kwak:

Saelune:

The CoC here says bigotry is against the rules, but I am more likely to be punished for pointing out bigotry than bigotry is punished. I do not think the rules here are fairly followed. That defending concentration camps and child torture is more acceptable than being mad at bigotry is absurd.

But they do it POLITELY, so they win.

According to the mod messages I have received, yes, it is literally this.

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Saelune:

So you're saying that someone doing these things is acting like Hitler?

Yes.

Save yourself the trouble of saying "Trump is just like that." It doesn't move the argument.

It does though.

Nah, it just puts us right back where we started: a vague commonality between Trump and Hitler that doesn't make Trump Hitler but you'll keep acting like it does.

Trump and Hitler both used propaganda, so Trump is Hitler is basically the same bad argument as detention centers and concentration camps both hold people so detention centers are concentration camps.

Saelune:
Only learned of this last night, but relevant.

Oh, you have got to be shitting me.

So. A rich little man with white hair died. What has that got to do with the price of rice, right? And *why* is that woe to us? Because you people, and sixty-two million other Americans, are listening to me right now. Because less than three percent of you people read books! Because less than fifteen percent of you read newspapers! Because the only truth you know is what you get over this tube. Right now, there is a whole, an entire generation that never knew anything that didn't come out of this tube! This tube is the Gospel, the ultimate revelation. This tube can make or break presidents, popes, prime ministers... This tube is the most awesome God-damned force in the whole godless world, and woe is us if it ever falls in to the hands of the wrong people, and that's why woe is us that Edward George Ruddy died. Because this company is now in the hands of CCA - the Communication Corporation of America. There's a new Chairman of the Board, a man called Frank Hackett, sitting in Mr. Ruddy's office on the twentieth floor. And when the twelfth largest company in the world controls the most awesome God-damned propoganda force in the whole godless world, who knows what shit will be peddled for truth on this network?

So, you listen to me. Listen to me: Television is not the truth! Television is a God-damned amusement park! Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God! Go to your gurus! Go to yourselves! Because that's the only place you're ever going to find any real truth.

But, man, you're never gonna get any truth from us. We'll tell you anything you wanna hear. We lie like hell. We'll tell you that, uh, Kojak always gets the killer and that nobody ever gets cancer at Archie Bunker's house. And no matter how much trouble the hero is in, don't worry. Just look at your watch. At the end of the hour, he's gonna win. We'll tell you any shit you want to hear.
We deal in illusions, man. None of it is true! But you people sit there day after day, night after night, all ages, colors, creeds. We're all you know. You're beginning to believe the illusions we're spinning here. You're beginning to think that the tube is reality and that your own lives are unreal. You do whatever the tube tells you. You dress like the tube, you eat like the tube, you raise your children like the tube. You even think like the tube. This is mass madness. You maniacs. In God's name, you people are the real thing. We are the illusion. So turn off your television sets. Turn them off now. Turn them off right now. Turn them off and leave them off. Turn them off right in the middle of this sentence I am speaking to you now. Turn them off!

You get up on your little twenty-one inch screen and howl about America and democracy. There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM, and ITT, and AT&T, and DuPont, Dow, Union Carbide, and Exxon. Those are the nations of the world today. What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state, Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do. We no longer live in a world of nations and ideologies, Mr. Beale. The world is a college of corporations, inexorably determined by the immutable bylaws of business. The world is a business, Mr. Beale. It has been since man crawled out of the slime. And our children will live, Mr. Beale, to see that... perfect world... in which there's no war or famine, oppression or brutality. One vast and ecumenical holding company, for whom all men will work to serve a common profit, in which all men will hold a share of stock. All necessities provided, all anxieties tranquilized, all boredom amused. And I have chosen you, Mr. Beale, to preach this evangel.

Last night I got up here and asked you people to stand up and fight for your heritage, and you did, and it was beautiful. Six million telegrams were received at the White House. The Arab takeover of CCA has been stopped. The people spoke, the people won. It was a radiant eruption of democracy. But I think that was it, fellas. That sort of thing is not likely to happen again. Because at the bottom of all our terrified souls, we know that democracy is a dying giant, a sick, sick dying, decaying political concept, writhing in its final pain. I don't mean that the United States is finished as a world power. The United States is the richest, the most powerful, the most advanced country in the world, light-years ahead of any other country. And I don't mean the Communists are gonna take over the world, because the Communists are deader than we are.

What is finished is the idea that this great country is dedicated to the freedom and flourishing of every individual in it. It's the individual that's finished. It's the single, solitary human being that's finished. It's every single one of you out there that's finished. Because this is no longer a nation of independent individuals. It's a nation of some two hundred odd million transistorized, deodorized, whiter-than-white, steel-belted bodies, totally unnecessary as human beings and as replaceable as piston rods.

Well, the time has come to say is 'dehumanization' such a bad word?' Whether it's good or bad, that's what is so. The whole world is becoming humanoid, creatures that look human but aren't. The whole world, not just us. We're just the most advanced country, so we're getting there first. The whole world's people are becoming mass-produced, programmed, numbered, insensate things.

[NARRATOR: It was a perfectly admissible argument that Howard Beale advanced in the days that followed. It was, however, also a very depressing one. Nobody particularly cared to hear his life was utterly valueless. By the end of the first week in June, "The Howard Beale Show" had dropped one point in the ratings and its trend of shares dipped under 48% for the first time since last November.]

The movie begins with a news anchor about to be fired because of low ratings. He snaps and speaks truth to power, causing his ratings to skyrocket, which his networks exploit by turning it into a circus sideshow. Meanwhile, the network takes one thing said anchor quipped about while drunkenly ranting -- a "terrorist of the week" television show -- and runs with it.

When the anchor learns his network is about to be purchased by a Saudi-owned multi-national (the Saudis having caused the very economic depression about which Beale initially ranted), he launches upon a tirade and motivates his audience to speak out against it, and they do. The network's chairman of the board meets with the anchor, and browbeats him into turning his show into sanitized corporate propaganda. Because the anchor no longer speaks truth to power, his ratings fall through the basement, and the movie ends with the anchor being assassinated live on air by the terrorist group with their own show, as their second season premiere.

Do try to know what you're talking about in the future.

EDIT: In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and swing for the fucking parking lot on this one. Almost eight years ago to this day, an MSNBC anchor by the name of Dylan Ratigan had this to say, actually invoking this very movie during his rant:

It's what got his show canned, by the way. By MSNBC. You know, the "liberal/progressive" cable news channel?

tstorm823:

Trump and Hitler both used propaganda, so Trump is Hitler is basically the same bad argument as detention centers and concentration camps both hold people so detention centers are concentration camps.

Yes, Trump doing the things Hitler did does make Trump comparable to Hitler. Just because that bothers you, doesn't change the truth of it.

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Trump and Hitler both used propaganda, so Trump is Hitler is basically the same bad argument as detention centers and concentration camps both hold people so detention centers are concentration camps.

Yes, Trump doing the things Hitler did does make Trump comparable to Hitler. Just because that bothers you, doesn't change the truth of it.

Trump is not like Hitler for plenty of reasons. One very important would be that Trump is a pragmatist with no ideological drive whatsoever while Hitler was driven mainly by Ideology. This can be easily seen by how quickly Trump can drastically change his stance on issues.
Everything he does is solely to serve his own personal interests. Hitler however was willing to go as far as driving himself to suicide to accomplish his dream of a pure "Third Reich". We could also point to the fact that while Trump uses racial issues to distract people from his economic policies Hitler did exactly the opposite. He didn't care about the economy and providing people with food and shelter was just meant to keep them happy while he would exterminate millions and lead the nation into numerous wars. Meanwhile Trump is pushing the US ever more to an economic nightmare for the poor and uses immigration and racist comments to deflect the discussion and keep the same poor people he's economically screwing distracted. Comparing Trump to a Nazi is playing right into his hands, it's easy to deny and ridicule and it keeps people's attention from away what he really tries to accomplish. (making the US an even greater paradise for the rich and hell for the poor)

Additionally these "concentration camps", while immoral, are more like the camps used to detain Japenese people during WW2 or "Boers" during the south african wars than the extermination camps used by Nazis. They're even closer to the Soviet camps. These concentration camps are more "Communist", "Colonial British" or "American" than "Nazi". The day these camps are used to exterminate than they will be typically "Nazi".

Saelune:
Yes, Trump doing the things Hitler did does make Trump comparable to Hitler. Just because that bothers you, doesn't change the truth of it.

It doesn't make me uncomfortable, it makes you uncomfortable. Trump and Hitler have both ate, drank, breathed, slept, and bathed too. Is that a true comparison? Sure. Does in mean Trump is primed to slaughter millions of people? Absolutely not. Most people who've used propaganda aren't Hitler. Most people who've detained people aren't Hitler. You can't find a couple points of comparison and make an equivocation, by everything in this paragraph, Trump is just as much Lincoln as he is Hitler. You have to care about why things are done and what the result is. The result of Donald Trump isn't the holocaust. It's not going to be.

And like, maybe I could concede the possibility that Donald Trump has bad intentions, though I think you're wrong to take that as a foregone conclusion. But even assuming that, you're going way too far and passing your assumptions about Trump's intentions along to multiple government agencies intended solely to care for and protect people, including migrants. Organizations that rescue people in the desert and bring them to safety, that combat human trafficking, that provide food/shelter/medical screening to asylum seekers. That you think "well, they've got people detained, and so did the Nazis. And I don't like Donald Trump, therefore concentration camps!" is completely unreasonable.

When I last posted, people were justifying the physical and sexual abuse of children because they were "ill;egals" (Which not all of them are, but that's still not the part that horrifies me).

Perusing a couple of pages, it looks like little has changed.

Something Amyss:
When I last posted, people were justifying the physical and sexual abuse of children because they were "ill;egals" (Which not all of them are, but that's still not the part that horrifies me).

Perusing a couple of pages, it looks like little has changed.

Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.

generals3:

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Trump and Hitler both used propaganda, so Trump is Hitler is basically the same bad argument as detention centers and concentration camps both hold people so detention centers are concentration camps.

Yes, Trump doing the things Hitler did does make Trump comparable to Hitler. Just because that bothers you, doesn't change the truth of it.

Trump is not like Hitler for plenty of reasons. One very important would be that Trump is a pragmatist with no ideological drive whatsoever while Hitler was driven mainly by Ideology. This can be easily seen by how quickly Trump can drastically change his stance on issues.
Everything he does is solely to serve his own personal interests. Hitler however was willing to go as far as driving himself to suicide to accomplish his dream of a pure "Third Reich". We could also point to the fact that while Trump uses racial issues to distract people from his economic policies Hitler did exactly the opposite. He didn't care about the economy and providing people with food and shelter was just meant to keep them happy while he would exterminate millions and lead the nation into numerous wars. Meanwhile Trump is pushing the US ever more to an economic nightmare for the poor and uses immigration and racist comments to deflect the discussion and keep the same poor people he's economically screwing distracted. Comparing Trump to a Nazi is playing right into his hands, it's easy to deny and ridicule and it keeps people's attention from away what he really tries to accomplish. (making the US an even greater paradise for the rich and hell for the poor)

Additionally these "concentration camps", while immoral, are more like the camps used to detain Japenese people during WW2 or "Boers" during the south african wars than the extermination camps used by Nazis. They're even closer to the Soviet camps. These concentration camps are more "Communist", "Colonial British" or "American" than "Nazi". The day these camps are used to exterminate than they will be typically "Nazi".

'Trump is not like Hitler cause Hitler had a mustache'

All of those concentration camps are immoral and indefensible. Your bar for acceptable evils is too low. This is seriously one of the worst defenses of Trump and concentration camps I have seen yet.

tstorm823:

Something Amyss:
When I last posted, people were justifying the physical and sexual abuse of children because they were "ill;egals" (Which not all of them are, but that's still not the part that horrifies me).

Perusing a couple of pages, it looks like little has changed.

Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.

That is just blatantly not true.

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.

That is just blatantly not true.

Nobody has had any problem condemning the actual instances of abuse that have occurred.
The things that have been defended aren't abuse. You're just insisting that detention centers exist to torture immigrants, and you're wrong.

Saelune:
'Trump is not like Hitler cause Hitler had a mustache'

Now that's arguing in bad faith: drawing a parallel between arguments based on personality, agenda and drive with an argument based on differences of physical appearance...

All of those concentration camps are immoral and indefensible. Your bar for acceptable evils is too low. This is seriously one of the worst defenses of Trump and concentration camps I have seen yet.

"Immoral" is exactly what I called them. It's not because I want to stop this constant revisionist Nazification of Trump related discussions that I'm defending these internment camps. Pointing out something is not "Nazi" =/= defending something. By continuously equating the mere denial that something is nazi with the moral acceptance of that "something" you're the one who's setting a very very low bar of what is moral and what is not.

PS: off course my so called "defense" was the worst one ever. Because it wasn't a defense. I was pointing towards the shittiness of both Trump and the internment camps while arguing against your blatant revisionism.

This is where we are now. People literally defending concentration camps and torture and claiming it is not bad.

I am sure people who thought segregation was good felt there was nothing wrong with it either.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.

That is just blatantly not true.

Nobody has had any problem condemning the actual instances of abuse that have occurred.
The things that have been defended aren't abuse. You're just insisting that detention centers exist to torture immigrants, and you're wrong.

The things that have been defended ARE abuse and it is insane that anyone could claim otherwise.

Detention Centers = Conentration Camps. Just like Wife beater and Spouse Abuser are the same thing, just like Tyrant and Despot are the same thing.

You're insisting that torturing immigrants is ok and you're wrong.

generals3:

Saelune:
'Trump is not like Hitler cause Hitler had a mustache'

Now that's arguing in bad faith: drawing a parallel between arguments based on personality, agenda and drive with an argument based on differences of physical appearance...

All of those concentration camps are immoral and indefensible. Your bar for acceptable evils is too low. This is seriously one of the worst defenses of Trump and concentration camps I have seen yet.

"Immoral" is exactly what I called them. It's not because I want to stop this constant revisionist Nazification of Trump related discussions that I'm defending these internment camps. Pointing out something is not "Nazi" =/= defending something. By continuously equating the mere denial that something is nazi with the moral acceptance of that "something" you're the one who's setting a very very low bar of what is moral and what is not.

PS: off course my so called "defense" was the worst one ever. Because it wasn't a defense. I was pointing towards the shittiness of both Trump and the internment camps while arguing against your blatant revisionism.

Abusing entire populations is doing what Hitler is doing. Poor, Jews, Blacks, Gays, Women, doesn't matter. Different flavors of Hitler are still Hitler.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Why bother making this post? People can read this thread and know that what you're saying isn't true. Nobody has justified any type of abuse in this thread.

That is just blatantly not true.

Nobody has had any problem condemning the actual instances of abuse that have occurred.
The things that have been defended aren't abuse. You're just insisting that detention centers exist to torture immigrants, and you're wrong.

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

tstorm823:

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

Why should the US ever be unwelcoming to immigrants in the first place? Why should this not be the same United States of America that most that came here were entitled to receive? You don't get in and then lock the door behind you and say screw all ya'll I got mine. No this is what the US meant to many that came here:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

That welcome should be for everyone, not just those that got in and tried to lock the door behind them. I don't even know what makes people think they have the right to lock the door behind them in the first place. My tribe was one of the earliest one's here and we sure as hell didn't lock the door, if we had most would not be here at all.

The only reason I see this happening at all is due to sheer greed. The US is far from being overpopulated.

tstorm823:

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.

Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.

Silentpony:

tstorm823:

Saelune:
That is just blatantly not true.

Nobody has had any problem condemning the actual instances of abuse that have occurred.
The things that have been defended aren't abuse. You're just insisting that detention centers exist to torture immigrants, and you're wrong.

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

Considering the people reporting the physical and sexual abuse taking place in the camps and detention centers, yes, "torture" would be applicable. In addition, denying the immigrants the ability to bathe or have access to proper hygiene causes an increase in staph infections and spread of disease.

tstorm823:

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

Neglect is abuse.

trunkage:

tstorm823:

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.

Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.

Yea, since ya know, the US is supposed to be against Human right's abuses, instead of making other nation uninhabitable for their people, it would be helpful for US policy to actually help them make their countries successful so they do not need to risk their lives further to move to the US in order to survive in the first place. US foreign policy is hugely responsible for many of the horrific conditions these people are being forced to endure in the first place.US economic policy and it's tendency to "crush" nations that try to focus on helping their people instead of catering to the promotion of US capitalism due to being worried about the spread of " socialism" is one of the largest factors fueling the destabilization of many nations forcing the migrants from their homes in the first place. If the US policy instead shifted to genuinely helping them become self sustaining rather than an exploitation hub for US companies, the forced migration would become far less of an issue.

trunkage:

tstorm823:

Silentpony:

I guess it depends on what you mean by torture, and which immigrants the camps are meant for.
Trump and ilk are already on record saying the camps are meant to deter more immigrants. Meaning from a certain point of view the camps aren't necessarily meant to inflict torture as much as look so horrifically bad from the outside that other immigrants in other nations won't risk going to the US for fear of being interred.
but they are not literally torture camps, ie the dungeon of every Fantasy villain with pain racks, torture wheels, iron maidens and torture masters with knives and bone breakers. They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.

Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.

I actually have been curious why the Pentagon doesn't just send the Navy SEALs to deal with MS13. Its not like we care about international borders or independent governance. Just set up a command, get drones flying, and in 3-5 weeks have 15 different MS13 hot spots to send a hundred or so SEALs in, never once consulting with Mexico, or maybe letting a few officials in on meetings.

Silentpony:
They're just horrifically run and overcrowded camps meant to be so bad you'd rather stay in Bolivia than risk Texas.

And we're okay with people being raped in order to "deter" people? That may not be the intent, but it's sure as hell happening and we're not doing anything about it. In fact, policies of these camps and the US government seem more than intent on causing harm by refusing things as simple as blankets. I'd hope we could both agree inflicting hypothermia on someone is torture.

Actually, no. Let's set that aside for a moment. Deterrence isn't then intent. This clearly isn't the intent because it wasn't the people running the camps who made a big deal about conditions. You look at officials, or virtually any major Republican politician, and they will defend the camps against claims that they're horrible. They're downplaying it. They're generally offended by comparison to anything negative.

But let's take it a step further: it's not working.

When Trump took office, illegal immigration was at a record low. It's gone up, even with news of these camps. Even if the intent is to deter immigration, it's absolutely failed. In reality, it's quite possible people escaping death squads are willing to risk concentration camps in order to escape, and there's nothing we can do that's as awful without intentionally and directly inflicting harm. I mean, I'm assuming you wouldn't be cool with executions or amputations or other things these countries do to their civilians, so how can we ever expect to be bad enough to deter people from coming here? Especially when migrants already die coming here, and they're willing to take that chance.

We're going to need to recreate those conditions before people will stop rolling the dice to come here.

I suspect the current administration will be down with that, and Fox News will give the new death camps a cutesy name before going on to attack AOC or Hillary's emails, but I really hope our country isn't cool with that.

Silentpony:

trunkage:

tstorm823:

By torture, I mean deliberately inflicting pain on people. Sure, detaining people is theoretically more of a deterrent than not detaining people (not that evidence suggests this actually pans out in practice, people are increasingly showing up and turning themselves in to CBP in the Trump era, so clearly those people don't think it looks horrific). But there's a grand canyon of middle ground between something being torture and something being less inviting than "welcome to America, be sure to make your court appearance, we're holding you to the honor system."

As I've said from the start, if the US wants to deter immigrants, you have to lock them up, rape and torture them and then slowly kill them through vivisection or something similar. You have to make it worse than their own country. Even this might not be enough.

Or, maybe, the US can stop dicking around, destroying governments and sending gangs like MS13 to take over.

I actually have been curious why the Pentagon doesn't just send the Navy SEALs to deal with MS13. Its not like we care about international borders or independent governance. Just set up a command, get drones flying, and in 3-5 weeks have 15 different MS13 hot spots to send a hundred or so SEALs in, never once consulting with Mexico, or maybe letting a few officials in on meetings.

I think you're making a bad assumption. You assume that the US doesn't want MS13 to exist. I don't think that true. (Even if they want MS13 out of the US, doesn't mean they want to get rid of then everywhere.)

lastjustice:
So rather this just continue be anti-trump nonsense spins it's wheels....Let's get the core of the matter.

Saelune, what would you like to see happen to people who come here Illegally?

Not put refugees in concentration camps.

Lil devils x:
Yea, since ya know, the US is supposed to be against Human right's abuses...the forced migration would become far less of an issue.

This is what I've been saying from the start. We wouldn't be dealing with the current immigration wave if the Obama administration hadn't fucked around in Honduras. It just happens to be the case if anyone suggests Obama may have done something with less than perfect consequences, somewhere in the world, at some time, people bust out the torches and pitchforks. NAFTA, CAFTA, and decades' of coups and propping up awful regimes in South America, are responsible for the overwhelming share of suffering and displacement in Latin America which has led millions to seek refuge inside the United States...all for the sake of corporate profits, here and abroad.

I'll be the asshole of the thread and point something out I desperately feel needs to be pointed out. Those "concentration camps", awful as they are, are still nothing compared to the shit immigrants put up with just to get here in the first place.

Give me a bit, and I can probably dig up the photos I found a year or two back, of immigrants wading through sewage and toxic industrial waste in the maquila zone, wearing makeshift hazmat suits of plastic shopping bags and duct tape. That's the reality of illegal immigration into the United States -- forced drug muling and prostitution, rape, starvation and exposure, murder, kidnapping and ransoming, some of the worst behavior imaginable.

Believe me I'm under zero delusion this phenomenon isn't due to our border and immigration policy. Prohibition doesn't work, and when a popular practice gets banned, people turn to criminals to participate in that practice. This is precisely why we need comprehensive border and immigration reform, to ensure we have an expedient and efficient system for admitting immigrants and providing them pathways to citizenship. However, that does not change the practice, nor its current means or ends.

Yes, there is a practical and moral imperative for interim housing facilities. But these facilities, as they are, are not the way to do it. We need facilities that can house immigrants and refugees in humane conditions, with access to food, shelter, basic medical care, education, and gainful employment opportunities so they can build lives for themselves as opposed to being shuffled immediately into a permanent migrant underclass. In short, we need a productive and positive system, such that prospective immigrants and refugees voluntarily remand themselves into custody for the best-possible outcomes for themselves and their families.

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