[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

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Eacaraxe:

Lil devils x:
Yea, since ya know, the US is supposed to be against Human right's abuses...the forced migration would become far less of an issue.

This is what I've been saying from the start. We wouldn't be dealing with the current immigration wave if the Obama administration hadn't fucked around in Honduras. It just happens to be the case if anyone suggests Obama may have done something with less than perfect consequences, somewhere in the world, at some time, people bust out the torches and pitchforks. NAFTA, CAFTA, and decades' of coups and propping up awful regimes in South America, are responsible for the overwhelming share of suffering and displacement in Latin America which has led millions to seek refuge inside the United States...all for the sake of corporate profits, here and abroad.

I'll be the asshole of the thread and point something out I desperately feel needs to be pointed out. Those "concentration camps", awful as they are, are still nothing compared to the shit immigrants put up with just to get here in the first place.

Give me a bit, and I can probably dig up the photos I found a year or two back, of immigrants wading through sewage and toxic industrial waste in the maquila zone, wearing makeshift hazmat suits of plastic shopping bags and duct tape. That's the reality of illegal immigration into the United States -- forced drug muling and prostitution, rape, starvation and exposure, murder, kidnapping and ransoming, some of the worst behavior imaginable.

Believe me I'm under zero delusion this phenomenon isn't due to our border and immigration policy. Prohibition doesn't work, and when a popular practice gets banned, people turn to criminals to participate in that practice. This is precisely why we need comprehensive border and immigration reform, to ensure we have an expedient and efficient system for admitting immigrants and providing them pathways to citizenship. However, that does not change the practice, nor its current means or ends.

Yes, there is a practical and moral imperative for interim housing facilities. But these facilities, as they are, are not the way to do it. We need facilities that can house immigrants and refugees in humane conditions, with access to food, shelter, basic medical care, education, and gainful employment opportunities so they can build lives for themselves as opposed to being shuffled immediately into a permanent migrant underclass. In short, we need a productive and positive system, such that prospective immigrants and refugees voluntarily remand themselves into custody for the best-possible outcomes for themselves and their families.

'Its ok, cause when he hits me, he doesn't wear spiked knuckles like my last partner did, so I should be grateful'.

In late 1920s, the new Soviet Russia were heavily persecuting Jews. France also had a massive swing against the Jews too. If you know your geography, you could probably guess where these Jews were fleeing too. If you know anything about Germany at that time, they were pretty left leaning. The German population wasn't particularly happy with this predicament and the set up these camps. A left leaning politician went in and noticed how poorly these people were treated. Lice ridden blankets, poor sanitation, malnourishment, the whole works. If you might have guess, these were called Concentration Camps. More than 5 years before Nazis took power. 12 or more years before gas chambers were ever thought of being added. (Thus Liberals set up Concentration Camps, which will just make some people's day, once again proving liberals are the worst. And then not realising that the Liberals bad idea didn't cause genocide, as it had been taken over.) Also, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.

Gulag were work camps, that worked people to literal death. About 10 to 15% of the population. But, under the Tsar, the death rates were even higher in his prisons. This does not at all make the Gulags acceptable. Just because Soviet Gulags caused less death than the Tsars, doesn't not make them good like some Communists claim. The Jewish Ghettos were used for centuries beforehand and still let Jews go to work, making them better than Concentration Camps. That does not make Ghettos a good thing.

Yes, this is another rant about people blowing things out of proportion. Yes, I also understand terms are trying to convey decades worth of history and people get mixed up with what particular time people are talking about. Yes, it's me again, talking about things (eg, terrible notions) being a spectrum, not either good or bad like a switch. But anyways, thoughts?

trunkage:
snip

Merged this with the concentration camp thread, as it seems to be a continuation of that subject.

JoJo:

trunkage:
snip

Merged this with the concentration camp thread, as it seems to be a continuation of that subject.

Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure

Anyone who votes for this administration at this point is irredeemable garbage who can drop the pretence of holding any good human qualities. Just embrace what you are and stop the act.

The Trump Administration Is Making Immigrant Parents Pay $800 for DNA Tests to Get Their Kids Back
....
The July 10 deadline for the Trump administration to reunite detained families with their children under 5 years old has passed. Predictably, and infuriatingly, they failed to meet that deadline. It's predictable because the administration repeatedly tried to get the deadline extended, mostly on grounds that they knew they couldn't meet it. And it's infuriating because while Trump eagerly rushed into his "zero tolerance" and family-separation policies, it's been clear since the beginning that his administration had no plans or methods for reuniting families once they were forced apart.

It's not hard to conclude that family reunification isn't a priority. The Department of Homeland Security has claimed it has a database of separated children and parents but has never proved it exists. Trump himself has said that the procedure for reuniting families is "don't come to our country illegally" in the first place. And now, as the Daily Beast reports, government officials have told at least four immigrant women that to get their children back, they'll have to pay for their own DNA tests to prove that they're related:

The tests are the latest ad hoc effort by the Trump administration to reunite families it had separated?in some cases because authorities took documents from adults proving they are related to their children. The tests are being administered by a private contractor on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services' Office of Refugee Resettlement, which oversees the care and housing of children. HHS has refused to name the contractor, which may be a violation of federal law.

HHS replied by claiming that they provide DNA tests free of charge, but reports from both the director for the immigrant shelter where the women are staying and an immigration lawyer who works with the shelter contradict that. The women are reportedly being told to pay between $700 and $800.

This corresponds with other stories of the government demanding steep fees to release immigrant children from custody. Family members already in the U.S. who attempt to sponsor detained children have been told they must pay hefty airplane tickets. A construction worker in Los Angeles, for example, tried to take in a 14-year-old relative taken from her mother when crossing the border. The girl would only be released into the custody of a family member?and only if that family member paid $1,800 to fly her and an escort from Houston. Immigrant and youth-rights advocates have accused the government of trying to raise barriers that make it impossible for typically poor people to free their family members.

trunkage:

JoJo:

trunkage:
snip

Merged this with the concentration camp thread, as it seems to be a continuation of that subject.

Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure

Certainly. I mean, your "Concentration Camps already existed in Germany 5 years before Nazis took power" reminded me of "migrant families were already being separated before Trump's administration": only half-true, as they originally weren't implemented even remotely in the same twisted way.

trunkage:
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.

They never start with gas chambers.

"First They Came" doesn't even start with "First they came for the Jews".

Something Amyss:

trunkage:
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.

They never start with gas chambers.

"First They Came" doesn't even start with "First they came for the Jews".

Indeed. First it was the "Socialists"

Then the trade unionists.

Compute that and look around.

CaitSeith:

trunkage:

JoJo:

Merged this with the concentration camp thread, as it seems to be a continuation of that subject.

Well, I was trying to stay away from Trump as it seems to offend people quickly. It really gums up the conversation. But, it probably would have gotten back there anyway... so, sure

Certainly. I mean, your "Concentration Camps already existed in Germany 5 years before Nazis took power" reminded me of "migrant families were already being separated before Trump's administration": only half-true, as they originally weren't implemented even remotely in the same twisted way.

To fuether this, the Concentration Camps at the start of the Nazi regime barely resembled what they were like at the end.

This term, like many others, has the problem of compressing time. Using it could represent anytime of the almost two decades of wildly differing states of the camps

Smithnikov:

Something Amyss:

trunkage:
IAlso, equating Concentration Camos to just the gas chambers is ridiculous. That was not their initial intent and they didn't turn that way for over a decade.

They never start with gas chambers.

"First They Came" doesn't even start with "First they came for the Jews".

Indeed. First it was the "Socialists"

Then the trade unionists.

Compute that and look around.

The peom starts with the communists(...socialists(SPD, the soc dem party)...the rest etc..). The english translation of this left it out because muh red scare.

rederoin:

Smithnikov:

Something Amyss:

They never start with gas chambers.

"First They Came" doesn't even start with "First they came for the Jews".

Indeed. First it was the "Socialists"

Then the trade unionists.

Compute that and look around.

The peom starts with the communists(...socialists(SPD, the soc dem party)...the rest etc..). The english translation of this left it out because muh red scare.

And people wonder why Antifa exist. Because guess who gets to go straight to jail if fascists got into power

trunkage:

rederoin:

Smithnikov:

Indeed. First it was the "Socialists"

Then the trade unionists.

Compute that and look around.

The peom starts with the communists(...socialists(SPD, the soc dem party)...the rest etc..). The english translation of this left it out because muh red scare.

And people wonder why Antifa exist. Because guess who gets to go straight to jail if fascists got into power

Pretty much yeah. Antifa began as a reaction to German and Italian fascism afterall.

Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

Gergar12:

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Saelune:

Gergar12:

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Saelune:

Gergar12:

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

They're claiming all Antifa are fascists becuase one punched a journalist a couple of months ago

Gergar12:

Saelune:

Gergar12:

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

I guess its good I didn't say 'If the idea of punching journalists bothers you, you might be a fascist'.

Gergar12:

Saelune:

Gergar12:

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

24
Jul 19
Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists

Nearly three dozen journalists at a broad range of major publications have been targeted by a far-right group that maintains a Deep Web database listing the personal information of people who threaten their views. This group specializes in encouraging others to harass those targeted by their ire, and has claimed responsibility for dozens of bomb threats and ?swatting? incidents, where police are tricked into visiting potentially deadly force on the target?s address.

Three flag-waving white supremacists who allegedly attacked journalists at a Donald Trump rally in Huntington Beach, CA, last year have been arrested. All three ? Robert Rundo, Robert Boman and Tyler Laube ? are members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement. A fourth suspect, Aaron Eason, still is being sought.https://deadline.com/2018/10/fbi-arrests-white-supremicists-who-assaulted-journalists-at-2017-trump-rally-huntington-beach-1202488830/

Riiight?

Kwak:

Gergar12:

Saelune:
I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

24
Jul 19
Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists

Nearly three dozen journalists at a broad range of major publications have been targeted by a far-right group that maintains a Deep Web database listing the personal information of people who threaten their views. This group specializes in encouraging others to harass those targeted by their ire, and has claimed responsibility for dozens of bomb threats and ?swatting? incidents, where police are tricked into visiting potentially deadly force on the target?s address.

Three flag-waving white supremacists who allegedly attacked journalists at a Donald Trump rally in Huntington Beach, CA, last year have been arrested. All three ? Robert Rundo, Robert Boman and Tyler Laube ? are members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement. A fourth suspect, Aaron Eason, still is being sought.https://deadline.com/2018/10/fbi-arrests-white-supremicists-who-assaulted-journalists-at-2017-trump-rally-huntington-beach-1202488830/

Riiight?

A fascist/nazi killed like 3 people in a mass shooting recently, but you wont see the talk about that. No, lets focus on some fasscist journalist who got punched once instead.

I'm surprised they dont keep bringing up that time Spencer got punched.

Kwak:

Gergar12:

Saelune:
I don't see how what I said involves punching journalists.

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

24
Jul 19
Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists

Nearly three dozen journalists at a broad range of major publications have been targeted by a far-right group that maintains a Deep Web database listing the personal information of people who threaten their views. This group specializes in encouraging others to harass those targeted by their ire, and has claimed responsibility for dozens of bomb threats and ?swatting? incidents, where police are tricked into visiting potentially deadly force on the target?s address.

Three flag-waving white supremacists who allegedly attacked journalists at a Donald Trump rally in Huntington Beach, CA, last year have been arrested. All three ? Robert Rundo, Robert Boman and Tyler Laube ? are members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement. A fourth suspect, Aaron Eason, still is being sought.https://deadline.com/2018/10/fbi-arrests-white-supremicists-who-assaulted-journalists-at-2017-trump-rally-huntington-beach-1202488830/

Riiight?

I use my twitter to post outrage about Trump.

rederoin:

Kwak:

Gergar12:

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

24
Jul 19
Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists

Nearly three dozen journalists at a broad range of major publications have been targeted by a far-right group that maintains a Deep Web database listing the personal information of people who threaten their views. This group specializes in encouraging others to harass those targeted by their ire, and has claimed responsibility for dozens of bomb threats and ?swatting? incidents, where police are tricked into visiting potentially deadly force on the target?s address.

Three flag-waving white supremacists who allegedly attacked journalists at a Donald Trump rally in Huntington Beach, CA, last year have been arrested. All three ? Robert Rundo, Robert Boman and Tyler Laube ? are members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement. A fourth suspect, Aaron Eason, still is being sought.https://deadline.com/2018/10/fbi-arrests-white-supremicists-who-assaulted-journalists-at-2017-trump-rally-huntington-beach-1202488830/

Riiight?

A fascist/nazi killed like 3 people in a mass shooting recently, but you wont see the talk about that. No, lets focus on some fasscist journalist who got punched once instead.

I'm surprised they dont keep bringing up that time Spencer got punched.

Andy Ngo may be an islamophobe, but so is(in theory) 51% of the US population that doesn't want Syrian refugees fleeing conflict started by Neoliberal climate policy by George W Bush who left the Kyoto Protocol.

Are we going to punch 51% of the US population?

Now I am for Refugees including climate refugees, but Antifa is damaging to the progressive cause in America.

Also, their methods are wrong, the left doesn't have enough guns to fight off the right.

Gergar12:

Kwak:

Gergar12:

Then you don't have a clue on what you are talking about.

Antifa beats up journalists who disagree with them and have beaten up multiple random journalists just for covering them.

They're scum and a bunch of little shits.

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

24
Jul 19
Neo-Nazi SWATters Target Dozens of Journalists

Nearly three dozen journalists at a broad range of major publications have been targeted by a far-right group that maintains a Deep Web database listing the personal information of people who threaten their views. This group specializes in encouraging others to harass those targeted by their ire, and has claimed responsibility for dozens of bomb threats and ?swatting? incidents, where police are tricked into visiting potentially deadly force on the target?s address.

Three flag-waving white supremacists who allegedly attacked journalists at a Donald Trump rally in Huntington Beach, CA, last year have been arrested. All three ? Robert Rundo, Robert Boman and Tyler Laube ? are members of the Southern California-based Rise Above Movement. A fourth suspect, Aaron Eason, still is being sought.https://deadline.com/2018/10/fbi-arrests-white-supremicists-who-assaulted-journalists-at-2017-trump-rally-huntington-beach-1202488830/

Riiight?

I use my twitter to post outrage about Trump.

rederoin:

Kwak:

Well I'm sure you're just as outraged by this, but you just haven't got around to posting about it yet.

Riiight?

A fascist/nazi killed like 3 people in a mass shooting recently, but you wont see the talk about that. No, lets focus on some fasscist journalist who got punched once instead.

I'm surprised they dont keep bringing up that time Spencer got punched.

Andy Ngo may be an islamophobe, but so is(in theory) 51% of the US population that doesn't want Syrian refugees fleeing conflict started by Neoliberal climate policy by George W Bush who left the Kyoto Protocol.

Are we going to punch 51% of the US population?

Now I am for Refugees including climate refugees, but Antifa is damaging to the progressive cause in America.

Also, their methods are wrong, the left doesn't have enough guns to fight off the right.

If 51% of the country are going to support evil, then we need to stop them. While it has long been made apparent that no one fought in WW2 for good reasons, it was good that Germany was stopped. Did not matter what % of the German people were supporting evil, they needed to be stopped. A majority of the US supported slavery at one point, didn't change that it was always evil and should have been stopped sooner. I am glad Lincoln went to war over it. The deaths caused by it were worth it. Waiting for the slavers to come around would have been a fools errand.

Antifa's flaw is they don't do enough.

Saelune:
A majority of the US supported slavery at one point, didn't change that it was always evil and should have been stopped sooner.

Yeah that didn't change. The majority simply decided an altogether different form of slavery was better for the fiscal bottom line, and slapped a smiley face on it to pretend they were somehow superior. Only difference is the lynch mobs wear badges, not hoods.

Lincoln didn't fuckin' go to war over it. The South did. Lincoln supported repatriation, and was perfectly content to abide slavery in non-secessionist states, which is why the Emancipation Proclamation only emancipated 50,000 out of twelve million slaves. I'm not saying Lincoln didn't play a key role in the end of slavery in the United States, but let's not go sucking his dead, rotten cock over shit he didn't do and never intended to do in the first place.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
A majority of the US supported slavery at one point, didn't change that it was always evil and should have been stopped sooner.

Yeah that didn't change. The majority simply decided an altogether different form of slavery was better for the fiscal bottom line, and slapped a smiley face on it to pretend they were somehow superior. Only difference is the lynch mobs wear badges, not hoods.

Lincoln didn't fuckin' go to war over it. The South did. Lincoln supported repatriation, and was perfectly content to abide slavery in non-secessionist states, which is why the Emancipation Proclamation only emancipated 50,000 out of twelve million slaves. I'm not saying Lincoln didn't play a key role in the end of slavery in the United States, but let's not go sucking his dead, rotten cock over shit he didn't do and never intended to do in the first place.

None of this has anything to do with the point I am making.

Saelune:
None of this has anything to do with the point I am making.

Other than the entire "you're buying into a dumpster fire of jingoistic historical revisionism, that simply happens to justify contemporary Democratic talking points" thing, yeah, it has nothing to do with the point you're making. Unfortunately, my entire point is you're buying hook, line, and sinker into jingoistic historical revisionism that justifies contemporary Democratic talking points.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
None of this has anything to do with the point I am making.

Other than the entire "you're buying into a dumpster fire of jingoistic historical revisionism, that simply happens to justify contemporary Democratic talking points" thing, yeah, it has nothing to do with the point you're making. Unfortunately, my entire point is you're buying hook, line, and sinker into jingoistic historical revisionism that justifies contemporary Democratic talking points.

I mean, thats one way to try to hate on me for saying slavery was bad and worth fighting to end.

Saelune:
I mean, thats one way to try to hate on me for saying slavery was bad and worth fighting to end.

You fail to understand my point. You use the past tense as if it is no longer a thing. Yeah, not so much.

Frankly, I don't hate you, and I don't hate on you. I see in you and your arguments, myself a decade, decade-and-a-half, ago. I was all piss, vinegar, and vitriol when the Bush administration came to town, and looked to the Democrats to fix shit. Clearly that didn't happen, and here I am in 2019 raging against a political party that didn't just let me down, they catastrophically failed for their own corruption, reticence, and stupidity, in ways I didn't even fully comprehend until 2016.

People said the shit I'm saying to you a decade ago, and I didn't listen. So, I don't expect you to listen now just because I said so. Just, save yourself 5-10 years of heartache and rage, and realize Democrats don't represent your interest. You're a useful idiot to them, to be exploited every 2-4 years as a vote and nothing more. As long as someone "worse" exists for them to point to, they can bank on your vote through empty campaign rhetoric, without giving you the first iota of real equity, relief, or even human dignity.

Don't let them use you, and be willing to walk away if you have to in order to do your part forcing them to act in your interest. It's how the LGBT community forced the Obama administration to accept gay marriage -- swaying the polls to the point remaining a force against progress could trigger electoral blowback -- and that's what it takes to extract an inch of genuine progress out of the "progressive" party. As long as you play the Trump derangement game, you're playing their game, and as long as you're playing their game you can't expect real progress but rather meaningless platitudes and empty promises.

The "real" enemy, such that it is, paradoxically isn't Trump or his ilk. They're idiots the Republican party will not be able to humor and remain a political force for long. You're fighting your own camp, or at least the camp you believe to be yours. The sooner you come to that realization, the sooner you can put your effort and labor to use being a positive force for meaningful, long-term, change.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
I mean, thats one way to try to hate on me for saying slavery was bad and worth fighting to end.

You fail to understand my point. You use the past tense as if it is no longer a thing. Yeah, not so much.

Frankly, I don't hate you, and I don't hate on you. I see in you and your arguments, myself a decade, decade-and-a-half, ago. I was all piss, vinegar, and vitriol when the Bush administration came to town, and looked to the Democrats to fix shit. Clearly that didn't happen, and here I am in 2019 raging against a political party that didn't just let me down, they catastrophically failed for their own corruption, reticence, and stupidity, in ways I didn't even fully comprehend until 2016.

People said the shit I'm saying to you a decade ago, and I didn't listen. So, I don't expect you to listen now just because I said so. Just, save yourself 5-10 years of heartache and rage, and realize Democrats don't represent your interest. You're a useful idiot to them, to be exploited every 2-4 years as a vote and nothing more. As long as someone "worse" exists for them to point to, they can bank on your vote through empty campaign rhetoric, without giving you the first iota of real equity, relief, or even human dignity.

Don't let them use you, and be willing to walk away if you have to in order to do your part forcing them to act in your interest. It's how the LGBT community forced the Obama administration to accept gay marriage -- swaying the polls to the point remaining a force against progress could trigger electoral blowback -- and that's what it takes to extract an inch of genuine progress out of the "progressive" party. As long as you play the Trump derangement game, you're playing their game, and as long as you're playing their game you can't expect real progress but rather meaningless platitudes and empty promises.

The "real" enemy, such that it is, paradoxically isn't Trump or his ilk. They're idiots the Republican party will not be able to humor and remain a political force for long. You're fighting your own camp, or at least the camp you believe to be yours. The sooner you come to that realization, the sooner you can put your effort and labor to use being a positive force for meaningful, long-term, change.

Actually the lesson is that it doesn't matter why Lincoln ended slavery, nor does it matter why the world stopped Hitler, only that they did those things, and they used a far more effective method than voting in a system where the person with more votes isn't in charge.

Oh and that if we want more progressive parties, we need to not let Trumps drag us back 50+ years cause some people are too sexist to support Hillary Godamned Clinton.

I am tired of people telling me they have my best interests when they dont, if you did, you would not have to say so. Silvanus never had to tell me that, nor has Agema or Obsidian or Thaluikhain or Caitseith, cause instead of trying to trick me, they just understood my points.

You're telling me to in-fight. If there is a problem that is not Trump, then it is the in-fighting you are telling me TO DO.

Gergar12:

Andy Ngo may be an islamophobe, but so is(in theory) 51% of the US population that doesn't want Syrian refugees fleeing conflict started by Neoliberal climate policy by George W Bush who left the Kyoto Protocol.

Are we going to punch 51% of the US population?

Now I am for Refugees including climate refugees, but Antifa is damaging to the progressive cause in America.

Also, their methods are wrong, the left doesn't have enough guns to fight off the right.

Anybody who supports Trump is a fascist, yes.
Why are you implying every right-wing American is a fascist?

Saelune:
Actually the lesson is that it doesn't matter why Lincoln ended slavery, nor does it matter why the world stopped Hitler...

Yeah, it absolutely does, in every conceivable way. Because radical Republican condescension, rampancy, and corruption were how we ended up with the Gilded Age and a century of Jim Crow. Because the embrace of domestic Nazi sympathizers, profiteers, and apologists in the highest echelons of the federal government during the Truman administration is how we ended up with the Cold War and seventy years of foreign policy -- in this case Latin America, but it applies just as easily to the Middle East, south Asia, and practically all of Africa -- that led us to this precise moment in time and this precise issue.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
Actually the lesson is that it doesn't matter why Lincoln ended slavery, nor does it matter why the world stopped Hitler...

Yeah, it absolutely does, in every conceivable way. Because radical Republican condescension, rampancy, and corruption were how we ended up with the Gilded Age and a century of Jim Crow. Because the embrace of domestic Nazi sympathizers, profiteers, and apologists in the highest echelons of the federal government during the Truman administration is how we ended up with the Cold War and seventy years of foreign policy -- in this case Latin America, but it applies just as easily to the Middle East, south Asia, and practically all of Africa -- that led us to this precise moment in time and this precise issue.

And then we had the Civil Rights Movement where extremists like Martin Luther King and Malcom X decided to do shit about it. It meant standing up to the police who abused their power for racism, it meant standing up to the government who abused their power for racism. It meant pissing off 'moderates' and 'centrists' who were fine with the status quo.

My point is, the only way to fix anything is to piss off centrists and piss off the status quo and to not pretend the government or the police will fix themselves on their own, it means fighting for what is right even when bigots tell you it is wrong.

It is absolutely true that the Democrats aren't going to fix the US. OTOH, they are going to keep things more or less stable, while alleviating some issues. The only other option is the Republicans, who are going out of their way to make things worse.

Now, if the Democrats rival party was going to radically reform things for the better, fine, abandon the Democrats if they don't scurry to catch up. The voters of the US don't have that option, but voting for the lesser evil gets you less evil.

Thaluikhain:
It is absolutely true that the Democrats aren't going to fix the US. OTOH, they are going to keep things more or less stable, while alleviating some issues. The only other option is the Republicans, who are going out of their way to make things worse.

Now, if the Democrats rival party was going to radically reform things for the better, fine, abandon the Democrats if they don't scurry to catch up. The voters of the US don't have that option, but voting for the lesser evil gets you less evil.

What should have happened is Hillary became President, continues to mostly keep Obama's policies floating, until a more progressive Democrat gets in office and takes Obama's policies and picks away at the Republican concessions, rinse and repeat until Socialism.

But instead Trump is President, I miss Bush, and if I have to, I will vote for Biden. I mean hey, I want Warren, and eventually AOC, but at this point, I just want Republicans to be anti-Nazi and anti-Russia, something that should not be a stretch to hope for, something that was true in the 80's. That's right, I want 1980's America, its better than 1940's Germany.

Gergar12:

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

What, this guy? He deserves worse.

Saelune:
What should have happened is Hillary became President, continues to mostly keep Obama's policies floating, until a more progressive Democrat gets in office and takes Obama's policies and picks away at the Republican concessions, rinse and repeat until Socialism.

The problem with this theory is that you can draw a pretty straight line between the policies of the Clintons and Obama (and Republicans) and discontent, discontent which tends to manifest itself as a collapse in political engagement by the marginalized and most vulnerable-- the very people who would vote for the socialism you want. More Clinton would not lead to someone further left, but instead would lead to someone further right. The problem with corporate democrats is that they discredit the left by inhabiting its skin while enacting the policies of the right. The Republicans, by contrast, drag the country right by going further and further right whether or not they win elections.

10 Dissatisfied with right-wing Republican rule->Elect Democrats
20 Dissatisfied with right-wing Democratic rule->Elect Republicans
30 GOTO 10

The way for the left to win is not to line up behind corporate candidates graced with a (D); if there was any reason to believe someone like Hillary Clinton would lead to socialism any quicker or more certainly than Donald Trump, the corporations wouldn't have funded her. And the same goes for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Seanchaidh:

Gergar12:

Saelune:
Jeff Foxworthy voice:

If the idea of people opposing fascism bothers you, you might be a fascist.

Unless the people are punching Asian-American Journalists for covering them.

What, this guy? He deserves worse.

Saelune:
What should have happened is Hillary became President, continues to mostly keep Obama's policies floating, until a more progressive Democrat gets in office and takes Obama's policies and picks away at the Republican concessions, rinse and repeat until Socialism.

The problem with this theory is that you can draw a pretty straight line between the policies of the Clintons and Obama (and Republicans) and discontent, discontent which tends to manifest itself as a collapse in political engagement by the marginalized and most vulnerable-- the very people who would vote for the socialism you want. More Clinton would not lead to someone further left, but instead would lead to someone further right. The problem with corporate democrats is that they discredit the left by inhabiting its skin while enacting the policies of the right. The Republicans, by contrast, drag the country right by going further and further right whether or not they win elections.

10 Dissatisfied with right-wing Republican rule->Elect Democrats
20 Dissatisfied with right-wing Democratic rule->Elect Republicans
30 GOTO 10

The way for the left to win is not to line up behind corporate candidates graced with a (D); if there was any reason to believe someone like Hillary Clinton would lead to socialism any quicker or more certainly than Donald Trump, the corporations wouldn't have funded her. And the same goes for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

I like Bernie more than Biden (I like Warren more than both). I will vote for whoever is not Trump. Please do the same. Us fighting doesn't really help anything though.

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