[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

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Leg End:
It's a clear argument that it's a constitutional right.

It's a clear argument that some interpretation of that statement is attested in the US constitution, yes, though that wasn't the topic of discussion.

Leg End:
Well, not this guy right here.

...What, you don't recognise any restriction on arms sales whatsoever? Not on age, or whether somebody is currently on the run from the law?

Leg End:
It does, unless you want to open up the can of worms for violating the constitution on a whim. That'd be a really fun thing to just have happen under this presidency, eh?

By this rationale, every lawmaker in the land who refuses to countenance arms sales to pre-schoolers is violating the constitution.

Verbatim quoting little contextless snippets of law and imagining they represent absolute legal truths is utterly untenable, and that position is not held by a single lawmaker in the country, including the most die-hard Libertarian.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

Just because they aren't the narrow definition of death camps popularized by Nazis, doesn't mean they aren't concentration camps

It's not just nazi death camps that they aren't. It's any definition of concentration camp. If you have the option to not go to the facility, it isn't a concentration camp. There's no such thing as a voluntary concentration camp.

So they can leave under their own power whenever they want? And they can keep their children with them?

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

Just because they aren't the narrow definition of death camps popularized by Nazis, doesn't mean they aren't concentration camps

That or some of us are comparing them to the time America actually had concentration camps.

Let's ask someone who was actually in one shall we?

Silvanus:

It's a clear argument that some interpretation of that statement is attested in the US constitution, yes, though that wasn't the topic of discussion.

...How did we even get on this topic again?

...What, you don't recognise any restriction on arms sales whatsoever?

I think they're stupid and unconstitutional.

Not on age, or whether somebody is currently on the run from the law?

That's a discussion on the concept of the Age of Majority and the constitutional rights of those accused of a crime, convicted of a crime, and/or fugitives of the law. See: Fourteenth Amendment. One of those hot button ones.

By this rationale, every lawmaker in the land who refuses to countenance arms sales to pre-schoolers is violating the constitution.

See above.

Verbatim quoting little contextless snippets of law and imagining they represent absolute legal truths is utterly untenable, and that position is not held by a single lawmaker in the country, including the most die-hard Libertarian.

You seriously underestimate some people, and a lot more when it comes to US citizens and the Bill of Rights. Checking out on this subtopic and hoping someone makes an actual thread for it, because it seems this forum just loves gun topics coming in out of nowhere.

undeadsuitor:

Let's ask someone who was actually in one shall we?

Doesn't mean he's correct. I love George, but he's not divine authority. Still hope he defeats Shatner in the Royale.

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

Let's ask someone who was actually in one shall we?

Doesn't mean he's correct. I love George, but he's not divine authority. Still hope he defeats Shatner in the Royale.

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you. If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

undeadsuitor:

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

Let's ask someone who was actually in one shall we?

Doesn't mean he's correct. I love George, but he's not divine authority. Still hope he defeats Shatner in the Royale.

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you. If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

Only one of the people in these current camps would be a better primary source.

undeadsuitor:

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you.

Eh, fair enough.

If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

Chiefly? On one hand, you have the forceful detainment and relocation of largely US citizens with even "one drop of Japanese blood" into these camps, where they basically rotted because of disgusting racism and the idea that, by their race, they were all potential or probable foreign spies and actors.

On the other hand, you have foreign nationals illegally entering the country and being detained at these centers in the interim until they're forked over elsewhere, which are not designed nor are prepared for the amount of people they're holding. If you seriously don't see the difference, I don't really have much else to say.

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you.

Eh, fair enough.

If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

Chiefly? On one hand, you have the forceful detainment and relocation of largely US citizens with even "one drop of Japanese blood" into these camps, where they basically rotted because of disgusting racism and the idea that, by their race, they were all potential or probable foreign spies and actors.

On the other hand, you have foreign nationals illegally entering the country and being detained at these centers in the interim until they're forked over elsewhere, which are not designed nor are prepared for the amount of people they're holding. If you seriously don't see the difference, I don't really have much else to say.

Asylum seekers aren't illegally entering this country, because asking for asylum isn't a crime. The idea that keeping people in inhumane rotting conditions is suddenly okay because they aren't citizens

An imaginary worthless status granted to us for the amazing feat of falling out of our mom's loins against our will

Is asinine and despicable. They're concentration camps, ran by an organization younger than the pack of cheese in the back of my fridge, whose entire purpose is cruising the country accosting brown people and locking up ones that don't have universal lottery tickets, stealing their children away where half of them will be adopted away before their parents have a trial, and the other half will die

But that's alright because we aren't using the c word

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

I trust someone who has actually lived in a concentration camp more on their opinions on concentration camps than you.

Eh, fair enough.

If you think he's wrong, provide some actual reasoning.

Chiefly? On one hand, you have the forceful detainment and relocation of largely US citizens with even "one drop of Japanese blood" into these camps, where they basically rotted because of disgusting racism and the idea that, by their race, they were all potential or probable foreign spies and actors.

On the other hand, you have foreign nationals illegally entering the country and being detained at these centers in the interim until they're forked over elsewhere, which are not designed nor are prepared for the amount of people they're holding. If you seriously don't see the difference, I don't really have much else to say.

Even if they are children?

undeadsuitor:

Asylum seekers aren't illegally entering this country, because asking for asylum isn't a crime.

Not all are Asylum seekers, and it doesn't change the fact that there is a process for that, and we can't just magic up a house for someone while shit happens.

The idea that keeping people in inhumane rotting conditions is suddenly okay because they aren't citizens

An imaginary worthless status granted to us for the amazing feat of falling out of our mom's loins against our will

Tell that to everyone that wants to be a US citizen. Why does it matter then? What does it even mean?

Is asinine and despicable.

Sure it is.

They're concentration camps, ran by an organization younger than the pack of cheese in the back of my fridge, whose entire purpose is cruising the country accosting brown people and locking up ones that don't have universal lottery tickets

Lottery tickets that are completely meaningless and have been granted to us by dropping our of our mother's loins, yet people want for some reason.

stealing their children away where half of them will be adopted away before their parents have a trial,

This raises the issue of what to actually do with children that have entered the country this way, because it's nowhere near as simple and it is tied up with the very real reality of a lot of these kids not belonging to the adults with them, and a whole lot of human trafficking. Welcome to the nightmare.

and the other half will die

...No, they won't. You won't suddenly have a shitload of children just drop dead.

But that's alright because we aren't using the c word

So, is it the conditions that are the issue, or? How specifically are they the same thing to the Japanese Internment Camps? You suddenly alright with them as soon as whatever standards you personally believe to be reasonable are met? Because comparing these things to that specific event brings in a whole new host of things, which makes the comparison rather disgusting.

Saelune:
Even if they are children?

Normally we blame parents for that. That and it doesn't change what I said. Welcome to the realities of what is effectively temporary housing, but even worse if that was such a possible thing.

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

Asylum seekers aren't illegally entering this country, because asking for asylum isn't a crime.

Not all are Asylum seekers, and it doesn't change the fact that there is a process for that, and we can't just magic up a house for someone while shit happens.

The idea that keeping people in inhumane rotting conditions is suddenly okay because they aren't citizens

An imaginary worthless status granted to us for the amazing feat of falling out of our mom's loins against our will

Tell that to everyone that wants to be a US citizen. Why does it matter then? What does it even mean?

Is asinine and despicable.

Sure it is.

They're concentration camps, ran by an organization younger than the pack of cheese in the back of my fridge, whose entire purpose is cruising the country accosting brown people and locking up ones that don't have universal lottery tickets

Lottery tickets that are completely meaningless and have been granted to us by dropping our of our mother's loins, yet people want for some reason.

stealing their children away where half of them will be adopted away before their parents have a trial,

This raises the issue of what to actually do with children that have entered the country this way, because it's nowhere near as simple and it is tied up with the very real reality of a lot of these kids not belonging to the adults with them, and a whole lot of human trafficking. Welcome to the nightmare.

and the other half will die

...No, they won't. You won't suddenly have a shitload of children just drop dead.

But that's alright because we aren't using the c word

So, is it the conditions that are the issue, or? How specifically are they the same thing to the Japanese Internment Camps? You suddenly alright with them as soon as whatever standards you personally believe to be reasonable are met? Because comparing these things to that specific event brings in a whole new host of things, which makes the comparison rather disgusting.

Saelune:
Even if they are children?

Normally we blame parents for that. That and it doesn't change what I said. Welcome to the realities of what is effectively temporary housing, but even worse if that was such a possible thing.

The reality is these are concentration camps.

Saelune:
The reality is these are concentration camps.

The reality is that we're devaluing the meaning of Concentration Camps for actual concentration camps.

Leg End:

Saelune:
The reality is these are concentration camps.

The reality is that we're devaluing the meaning of Concentration Camps for actual concentration camps.

To say these are not concentration camps is to devalue the lives of the people in them.

Leg End:

undeadsuitor:

Asylum seekers aren't illegally entering this country, because asking for asylum isn't a crime.

Not all are Asylum seekers, and it doesn't change the fact that there is a process for that, and we can't just magic up a house for someone while shit happens.

You do realize that to seek asylum they have to be on US soil. They have to be physically inside the US to claim asylum.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/asylum-at-embassy/
https://it.usembassy.gov/embassy-consulates/rome/sections-offices/dhs/uscis/refugeesasylum/

Worgen:

You do realize that to seek asylum they have to be on US soil. They have to be physically inside the US to claim asylum.

Yes, and then we go back to it being a process and not being magic which you know but, good lord this is depressing.

Leg End:
Not all are Asylum seekers, and it doesn't change the fact that there is a process for that, and we can't just magic up a house for someone while shit happens.

The administration has created this problem by funneling money into ICE and apprehending more and more immigrants, while also not supporting the network that handles them. On purpose.

Our inability to handle this "influx" of asylum seekers is a self-made problem.

Lottery tickets that are completely meaningless and have been granted to us by dropping our of our mother's loins, yet people want for some reason.

Because they need them, and have done more to get them that we ever had

...No, they won't. You won't suddenly have a shitload of children just drop dead.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/why-are-migrant-children-dying-u-s-custody-n1010316

and this was before ICE started picking up steam,

How specifically are they the same thing to the Japanese Internment Camps?

How aren't they?

Leg End:

Saelune:
The reality is these are concentration camps.

The reality is that we're devaluing the meaning of Concentration Camps for actual concentration camps.

Nazi concentration camps is not the definition of concentration camps. The issue is that no one knew about the mass execution til the war was almost over. Rounding up people and imprisoning them in concentration camps. Mass execution is a whole new level.

Leg End:
...How did we even get on this topic again?

We were discussing the moral and rational characteristics, I thought.

That's a discussion on the concept of the Age of Majority and the constitutional rights of those accused of a crime, convicted of a crime, and/or fugitives of the law. See: Fourteenth Amendment. One of those hot button ones.

So, you do recognise certain restrictions.

I'm glad of that, at least.

undeadsuitor:

So they can leave under their own power whenever they want? And they can keep their children with them?

No, but they entered voluntarily knowing that would be the case. If you get on a rollercoaster, you won't have the ability to get off halfway through the ride, that doesn't make a rollercoaster a prison (because you chose to get on). If you go into a bar, you don't have the right to keep your underage kids with you, that doesn't make a bar a into human rights violation.

If you choose to be detained in the US to get an asylum hearing rather than waive that right and be deported, you sign onto the fact that you won't be able to leave on demand and you won't be able to stay with your children.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

So they can leave under their own power whenever they want? And they can keep their children with them?

No, but they entered voluntarily knowing that would be the case. If you get on a rollercoaster, you won't have the ability to get off halfway through the ride, that doesn't make a rollercoaster a prison (because you chose to get on). If you go into a bar, you don't have the right to keep your underage kids with you, that doesn't make a bar a into human rights violation.

If you choose to be detained in the US to get an asylum hearing rather than waive that right and be deported, you sign onto the fact that you won't be able to leave on demand and you won't be able to stay with your children.

concentration camp noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard -used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

You're wrong.

So Tommy Robinson is now seeking ''asylum'' in the United States and apparently has a history of trying to illegally enter the United States. Will we see him enter these concentration camps in the near future? That would be something.

Seanchaidh:

concentration camp noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard ?used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

You're wrong.

You're not detained if you have the option to leave. I'm right.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

So they can leave under their own power whenever they want? And they can keep their children with them?

No, but they entered voluntarily knowing that would be the case. If you get on a rollercoaster, you won't have the ability to get off halfway through the ride, that doesn't make a rollercoaster a prison (because you chose to get on). If you go into a bar, you don't have the right to keep your underage kids with you, that doesn't make a bar a into human rights violation.

If you choose to be detained in the US to get an asylum hearing rather than waive that right and be deported, you sign onto the fact that you won't be able to leave on demand and you won't be able to stay with your children.

By that logic, Nazi concentration camps weren't concentration camps because the future prisoners could voluntarily leave the country before being captured, and they were eventually released by allied forces

They were just one long rollercoaster ride

Hades:
So Tommy Robinson is now seeking ''asylum'' in the United States and apparently has a history of trying to illegally enter the United States. Will we see him enter these concentration camps in the near future? That would be something.

I thought there was a problem entering the States if you had convictions for crimes relating to drug use?

Baffle2:

Hades:
So Tommy Robinson is now seeking ''asylum'' in the United States and apparently has a history of trying to illegally enter the United States. Will we see him enter these concentration camps in the near future? That would be something.

I thought there was a problem entering the States if you had convictions for crimes relating to drug use?

Yes. That's why he once got caught trying to enter with someone else's passport.

undeadsuitor:

By that logic, Nazi concentration camps weren't concentration camps because the future prisoners could voluntarily leave the country before being captured, and they were eventually released by allied forces

They were just one long rollercoaster ride

To make your analogy even approach working, the Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen. Beyond that, they were hunting people down in foreign lands as they invaded countries.

But there's no need to compare to Nazis here, take the internment camps in America. Japanese Americans with even "one drop of Japanese blood", who had every right to live freely in the country, were hunted down and forcibly relocated to confined facilities en masse. Asylum seekers are doing the opposite, facing great hardship to get to the US to turn themselves in. The Japanese Americans were held against their will for an undetermined extended period, people seeking asylum are held by their own decision until such a time that we can deliver on their right to plead their case to be in the United States, typically less than a month. Refugees are choosing to be detained in the US. We aren't hunting them down to be concentrated, they are coming to us deliberately.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

By that logic, Nazi concentration camps weren't concentration camps because the future prisoners could voluntarily leave the country before being captured, and they were eventually released by allied forces

They were just one long rollercoaster ride

To make your analogy even approach working, the Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen. Beyond that, they were hunting people down in foreign lands as they invaded countries.

That was literally one of the first steps the Nazis took on their road to ovens and gas chambers...

edit: Have you ever taken even 30 seconds of reflection to wonder why you always come down on the same side of these arguments as racists, white nationalists, and neo-nazis? It's not a coincidence... Now a regular person would use take that information and have a "Hans are we the baddies" moment. You seem to either have never looked at it or did and just decided to double-down.

No, seriously, we are LITERALLY arguing over the definition of 'concentration camps' now. Trump is Hitler 2. This is NOT an exaggeration, and that is the fucked up thing.

There is no moral ground whatsoever on defending LITERAL CONCENTRATION CAMPS!

Those of us who know what a 'red flag' is predicted what Trump would do, but we were told 'wait and see'. Now we are literally seeing Trump's concentration camps and Nazis' rights are more defended than the rights of children.

This world is fucked.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

By that logic, Nazi concentration camps weren't concentration camps because the future prisoners could voluntarily leave the country before being captured, and they were eventually released by allied forces

They were just one long rollercoaster ride

To make your analogy even approach working, the Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen. Beyond that, they were hunting people down in foreign lands as they invaded countries.

But there's no need to compare to Nazis here, take the internment camps in America. Japanese Americans with even "one drop of Japanese blood", who had every right to live freely in the country, were hunted down and forcibly relocated to confined facilities en masse. Asylum seekers are doing the opposite, facing great hardship to get to the US to turn themselves in. The Japanese Americans were held against their will for an undetermined extended period, people seeking asylum are held by their own decision until such a time that we can deliver on their right to plead their case to be in the United States, typically less than a month. Refugees are choosing to be detained in the US. We aren't hunting them down to be concentrated, they are coming to us deliberately.

You're literally defending Concentration camps.

tstorm823:

Seanchaidh:

concentration camp noun: a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard ?used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners

You're wrong.

You're not detained if you have the option to leave. I'm right.

They don't have the option to leave.

tstorm823:

undeadsuitor:

By that logic, Nazi concentration camps weren't concentration camps because the future prisoners could voluntarily leave the country before being captured, and they were eventually released by allied forces

They were just one long rollercoaster ride

To make your analogy even approach working,nthe Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen. Beyond that, they were hunting people down in foreign lands as they invaded countries.

But there's no need to compare to Nazis here, take the internment camps in America. Japanese Americans with even "one drop of Japanese blood", who had every right to live freely in the country, were hunted down and forcibly relocated to confined facilities en masse. Asylum seekers are doing the opposite, facing great hardship to get to the US to turn themselves in. The Japanese Americans were held against their will for an undetermined extended period, people seeking asylum are held by their own decision until such a time that we can deliver on their right to plead their case to be in the United States, typically less than a month. Refugees are choosing to be detained in the US. We aren't hunting them down to be concentrated, they are coming to us deliberately.

"the Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen."

That was literally step one. Distributing and publishing clear and hostile media demonizing the people that would eventually be taken to camps.

"who had every right to live freely in the country, were hunted down and forcibly relocated to confined facilities en masse"

Why don't current immigrants have the right to live freely? Give them a card, let them take jobs and pay taxes. It's not a big deal.

"people seeking asylum are held by their own decision until such a time that we can deliver on their right to plead their case to be in the United States, typically less than a month."

Try 2-3 years for an asylum hearing, with immigration judges having a backlog of 2000 cases because they're understaffed (on purpose)

That's 3 years in a cage. 3 years separated from their children. If you came with a baby, they'd be a kid before you saw them again.

Even if someone chose to go back to where they came from instead of waiting years to be sent back anyways (the Trump administration is upping the requirements for asylum so high no one is actually qualifying for it anymore) it would be years before that happened, and chances are the inbred dumbasses running ICE actually putting you back in the country you came from is minimal.

Nedoras:
Well this went a bit off the rails huh? And welcome back Saelune.

They are, by definition, concentration camps. I'm sick of the pedants being annoying and utterly wrong by saying that they're not, because they only think of Nazi death camps during WW2 when they hear the phrase "concentration camp". Camps like this have existed outside of the Holocaust.

Anyway, the entire purpose of the camps is to intimidate and to inflict as much suffering as possible. It's to send a message. The conditions these kids are living in IS what it's supposed to be. It's not some tragic mistake or mishap. It's not something they're trying to improve. Hell, they've actively argued that they don't have to. They want them to rot and die to send a message. And all of this is perfectly acceptable apparently because they're not actively being murdered by the guards.

Also it's just really fucking astounding to me that everyone forgot that the administration was saying the suffering was the point. They were openly saying that this was a deterrent, that they made this happen. It's on their hands. They wanted and caused this suffering. And quite frankly, the Democratic leadership needs to stop being such pathetic piles of shit and actively fight against this instead of just being idle and silently supporting it.

And I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about them coming here in the first place. This isn't an acceptable response.

This. People get way too caught up in trivial technicalities.

Marik2:

Nedoras:
Well this went a bit off the rails huh? And welcome back Saelune.

They are, by definition, concentration camps. I'm sick of the pedants being annoying and utterly wrong by saying that they're not, because they only think of Nazi death camps during WW2 when they hear the phrase "concentration camp". Camps like this have existed outside of the Holocaust.

Anyway, the entire purpose of the camps is to intimidate and to inflict as much suffering as possible. It's to send a message. The conditions these kids are living in IS what it's supposed to be. It's not some tragic mistake or mishap. It's not something they're trying to improve. Hell, they've actively argued that they don't have to. They want them to rot and die to send a message. And all of this is perfectly acceptable apparently because they're not actively being murdered by the guards.

Also it's just really fucking astounding to me that everyone forgot that the administration was saying the suffering was the point. They were openly saying that this was a deterrent, that they made this happen. It's on their hands. They wanted and caused this suffering. And quite frankly, the Democratic leadership needs to stop being such pathetic piles of shit and actively fight against this instead of just being idle and silently supporting it.

And I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks about them coming here in the first place. This isn't an acceptable response.

This. People get way too caught up in trivial technicalities.

The people defending these camps know what they are doing. They are not confused about what they are, they know what they defend is wrong, so they try to trick people into thinking what is true is not true.

Avnger:

To make your analogy even approach working, the Nazi's would have had to find Jewish people and tell them to either leave the country or be imprisoned, and that certainly didn't happen. Beyond that, they were hunting people down in foreign lands as they invaded countries.

That was literally one of the first steps the Nazis took on their road to ovens and gas chambers...

No, telling Jewish people they're welcome to go to the home they had recently left and never have to interact with Nazis again was not how the Holocaust started

edit: Have you ever taken even 30 seconds of reflection to wonder why you always come down on the same side of these arguments as racists, white nationalists, and neo-nazis? It's not a coincidence... Now a regular person would use take that information and have a "Hans are we the baddies" moment. You seem to either have never looked at it or did and just decided to double-down.

I don't always come down on the side of racists from my perspective. In fact, I never come down on the side of racists from my perspective. It just appears that way to you because we're in an overwhelmingly left-leaning bubble here on the Escapist. If someone runs to the left as fast as they can and then turns to see what's to the right of them, even people who are on the left and moving left are going to be in the same relative direction as anyone to the right in any capacity. That's not a reasonable assessment.

I know where I compare to most people here, I know where I compare to mainstream commentators, I know where I compare to news talk radio, I know where I compare to NPR, I know where I compare to a Ben Shapiro or to a Contrapoints. I am a politically informed person who knows where I stand on things, and I know it isn't with Neo-nazis. The reason I'm always right of the Escapist is not because I'm a fascist. It's because the Escapist demographic is overwhlemingly left to the point of having actual communists. And not the Fox News red scare kind of "they want to raise taxes" communism, actual "eliminate private property" communism. That doesn't signal to me that I'm a baddy.

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