[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

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Thaluikhain:

If daycares were run by a single organisation going out of its way to torture kids, then if a kid died under their supervision you'd probably wonder, though.

Right. But Saelune's justification for believing children are being tortured is that they have died. As promptly evidenced by the equal assumption that a child who dies in daycare did so because the were abused. It's circular reasoning. You can't assume someone was abusing a child because the child died and then blame that person for the death because they abused the child. You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

tstorm823:
You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

And you don't?

tstorm823:

Thaluikhain:

If daycares were run by a single organisation going out of its way to torture kids, then if a kid died under their supervision you'd probably wonder, though.

Right. But Saelune's justification for believing children are being tortured is that they have died. As promptly evidenced by the equal assumption that a child who dies in daycare did so because the were abused. It's circular reasoning. You can't assume someone was abusing a child because the child died and then blame that person for the death because they abused the child. You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

The administration has actively argued that the conditions are humane and that they don't have to improve anything. There have been outbreaks of disease due to how unsanitary everything is. They knowingly are putting these people into awful conditions and doing nothing to improve the conditions. As I posted yesterday, they are considering shipping them all to facilities that may or may not exist in Guatemala. Ya know, one of those "safe" countries that they're fleeing from. It doesn't matter that they're not literally putting bags over their heads and beating them, their conditions are torturous. The suffering is the point. The conditions are the point. This whole situation was manufactured to be as awful as possible as a deterrent. The administration has said so in the past, and it's only recently that they've changed tune.

Also those kids that died, did so due to neglect from the guards and people in charge of the facilities. They're being denied medicine and basic care. Attempts at donating the things that they need has also been turned down. Actual help in general has been turned down. Because, once again, the suffering is the point. They're knowingly doing this, they're knowingly making these people suffer. And that IS torture.

Edited out.

Saelune:

tstorm823:
You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

And you don't?

The quote is "Facts don't care about your feelings," not "Facts don't care about his feelings." :P

tstorm823:

Thaluikhain:

If daycares were run by a single organisation going out of its way to torture kids, then if a kid died under their supervision you'd probably wonder, though.

Right. But Saelune's justification for believing children are being tortured is that they have died. As promptly evidenced by the equal assumption that a child who dies in daycare did so because the were abused. It's circular reasoning. You can't assume someone was abusing a child because the child died and then blame that person for the death because they abused the child. You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

The department running these camps are arguing, in court, in front of a judge, that providing toothpaste, beds, and showers aren't necessary to provide a safe and sanitary environment.

Yeah, they're torturing these kids

tstorm823:

Kwak:

The evil people themselves beg to differ.
https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-border-patrol-facebook-group-agents-joke-about-migrant-deaths-post-sexist-memes

Some doctors and teachers have done bad things. So we should get rid of schools and hospitals, right?

Damn near half the workforce was involved.

If half our doctors are fucked up, that means the system is fundamentally broken

Avnger:

Saelune:

tstorm823:
You need a source of information that isn't your own assumptions.

And you don't?

The quote is "Facts don't care about your feelings," not "Facts don't care about his feelings." :P

Facts are left-wing.

Republicans: The US is overpopulated, we cant accept immigrants.

Also Republicans: If you get pregnant, you have to have the baby! Abortion and safe sex is wrong!

Also Also Republicans: Only straight people can get married, cause that's how you make babies.

Also also also Republicans: Gays cant adopt unwanted children! That will mess up the children!

Also also also also Republicans: Tearing children from their families and letting them sit for months in unclean cramped spaces without care or treatment is totally ok, childen die, it happens!

It's torture through inaction. Lots of people have illnesses and conditions that are worsen due to the apathy of the camps. Apathy is a good legal loophole most of the time, because it is done indirectly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_violence

Just chiming in to say:

They're concentration camps.

Any historian will tell you that that is the correct term to use.

If any of you have a different opinion and can provide your documented expertise, then you are welcome to.

I'll say that although you can have an argument on where exactly the line between refugee camp and concentration camp is, it's pretty clear which side the administration is falling on.

I'm in favor of refugee camps, personally. Most of the folks coming in right now qualify. If they had any personal capital, they wouldn't be trudging a thousand miles, families in tow. We need time to set them up with papers and immunizations. They need time for a crash course in English, citizenship (not enough to become citizens, they can pursue that later if they want, but they need to know US law), a jumpstart in some sort of craft or field they can pursue employment in, and knowledge of the agencies and programs that can provide them further aid in integration once they leave the camp.

And the camps don't have to be any sort of 5-star hotel accommodations, but we can do better than overcrowded tents in the desert.

A six month integration program should be possible, on an organizational level. It'll cost money, sure, but at least you're setting them up with the tools to start earning their keep on release, rather than being perpetual burdens on the welfare state.

But the administration that be would rather keep on increasing the proportion of the national budget the military gets, and insisting on getting funding for a wall that would only ever keep on costing money in the future instead of earning it and entering the taxation system. They're much easier bullet points to spout for re-election.

SupahEwok:
I'll say that although you can have an argument on where exactly the line between refugee camp and concentration camp is, it's pretty clear which side the administration is falling on.

I'm in favor of refugee camps, personally. Most of the folks coming in right now qualify. If they had any personal capital, they wouldn't be trudging a thousand miles, families in tow. We need time to set them up with papers and immunizations. They need time for a crash course in English, citizenship (not enough to become citizens, they can pursue that later if they want, but they need to know US law), a jumpstart in some sort of craft or field they can pursue employment in, and knowledge of the agencies and programs that can provide them further aid in integration once they leave the camp.

And the camps don't have to be any sort of 5-star hotel accommodations, but we can do better than overcrowded tents in the desert.

A six month integration program should be possible, on an organizational level. It'll cost money, sure, but at least you're setting them up with the tools to start earning their keep on release, rather than being perpetual burdens on the welfare state.

But the administration that be would rather keep on increasing the proportion of the national budget the military gets, and insisting on getting funding for a wall that would only ever keep on costing money in the future instead of earning it and entering the taxation system. They're much easier bullet points to spout for re-election.

They don't WANT to let them in, even if they are 'the good ones'.

Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'. Again, let me hammer it home, he told a bunch of AMERICANS to 'go back to their countries' due to them not being white.

That's right, the undemocratic despot told a bunch of people they are not American solely cause of their skin color.

Saelune:

SupahEwok:
I'll say that although you can have an argument on where exactly the line between refugee camp and concentration camp is, it's pretty clear which side the administration is falling on.

I'm in favor of refugee camps, personally. Most of the folks coming in right now qualify. If they had any personal capital, they wouldn't be trudging a thousand miles, families in tow. We need time to set them up with papers and immunizations. They need time for a crash course in English, citizenship (not enough to become citizens, they can pursue that later if they want, but they need to know US law), a jumpstart in some sort of craft or field they can pursue employment in, and knowledge of the agencies and programs that can provide them further aid in integration once they leave the camp.

And the camps don't have to be any sort of 5-star hotel accommodations, but we can do better than overcrowded tents in the desert.

A six month integration program should be possible, on an organizational level. It'll cost money, sure, but at least you're setting them up with the tools to start earning their keep on release, rather than being perpetual burdens on the welfare state.

But the administration that be would rather keep on increasing the proportion of the national budget the military gets, and insisting on getting funding for a wall that would only ever keep on costing money in the future instead of earning it and entering the taxation system. They're much easier bullet points to spout for re-election.

They don't WANT to let them in, even if they are 'the good ones'.

Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'. Again, let me hammer it home, he told a bunch of AMERICANS to 'go back to their countries' due to them not being white.

That's right, the undemocratic despot told a bunch of people they are not American solely cause of their skin color.

True. Few of the cranially endowed would claim Trump in their group.

Kyle Gaddo:
Just chiming in to say:

They're concentration camps.

Any historian will tell you that that is the correct term to use.

If any of you have a different opinion and can provide your documented expertise, then you are welcome to.

Yep.

Basically, if people are free to leave, it's a refugee camp. If they aren't, then it's a concentration camp.

Saelune:
Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'.

Well, how many of them come from a country that isn't being run into the ground?

(Ok, I'm about the zillionth person to say something like that)

At this point it clear that anybody still supporting the Trump government is supporting fascism, these concentration camps make that clear.

Thaluikhain:

Saelune:
Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'.

Well, how many of them come from a country that isn't being run into the ground?

(Ok, I'm about the zillionth person to say something like that)

Only 1 of them was not born in the US

Thaluikhain:

Saelune:
Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'.

Well, how many of them come from a country that isn't being run into the ground?

(Ok, I'm about the zillionth person to say something like that)

Only 1 of them was not born in the US

rederoin:
At this point it clear that anybody still supporting the Trump government is supporting fascism, these concentration camps make that clear.

Thaluikhain:

Saelune:
Trump on twitter recently told a bunch of non-white American female politicians who were democratically elected for them to 'go back to their terrible countries'.

Well, how many of them come from a country that isn't being run into the ground?

(Ok, I'm about the zillionth person to say something like that)

Only 1 of them was not born in the US

Ah, then the answer is 1.

image

Sometimes it seems like GOP's anti-immigration strategy is to make America more terrible than any current Third World country.

altnameJag:

Damn near half the workforce was involved.

If half our doctors are fucked up, that means the system is fundamentally broken

The Facebook group was half the size of border patrol. Some of the group members were verified CBP agents. I've seen nothing indicating that all or even most of that Facebook group were actually border patrol.

Agema:

Basically, if people are free to leave, it's a refugee camp. If they aren't, then it's a concentration camp.

For the record, this is precisely what I'm saying.

tstorm823:

altnameJag:

Damn near half the workforce was involved.

If half our doctors are fucked up, that means the system is fundamentally broken

The Facebook group was half the size of border patrol. Some of the group members were verified CBP agents. I've seen nothing indicating that all or even most of that Facebook group were actually border patrol.

Agema:

Basically, if people are free to leave, it's a refugee camp. If they aren't, then it's a concentration camp.

For the record, this is precisely what I'm saying.

So you agree that Trump has concentration camps?

CaitSeith:
Ah, then the answer is 1.

Well, I meant "come from" to mean "is citizen of" not "was born in", but yeah.

CaitSeith:
Sometimes it seems like GOP's anti-immigration strategy is to make America more terrible than any current Third World country.

Not just the anti-immigration strategy, but yeah. Doubt it's a plan they've sat down and discussed, but it doesn't look that different.

Again, reminder that if Obama 'made the camps', why didn't Trump unmake them? Why didn't Trump do a better job than Obama? Why did Trump make them even worse than they were? Why is this THE ONE THING OF OBAMA'S THAT TRUMP DOESNT UNDO!?

Cause Trump is a racist Nazi white supremacist piece of garbage who criticizes everyone else for his own horribleness.

We warned you that Trump would do literally what he has been doing, but we were told we were wrong, we were told to 'wait and see' and we were proven right time and again, but still here we are, people are literally advocating for concentration camps, people are literally advocating for child torture.

Saelune:
Again, reminder that if Obama 'made the camps', why didn't Trump unmake them? Why didn't Trump do a better job than Obama? Why did Trump make them even worse than they were? Why is this THE ONE THING OF OBAMA'S THAT TRUMP DOESNT UNDO!?

Cause Trump is a racist Nazi white supremacist piece of garbage who criticizes everyone else for his own horribleness.

We warned you that Trump would do literally what he has been doing, but we were told we were wrong, we were told to 'wait and see' and we were proven right time and again, but still here we are, people are literally advocating for concentration camps, people are literally advocating for child torture.

You are still wrong, you're just especially talented at convincing yourself otherwise. You made your intelligence a dangerous thing.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
Again, reminder that if Obama 'made the camps', why didn't Trump unmake them? Why didn't Trump do a better job than Obama? Why did Trump make them even worse than they were? Why is this THE ONE THING OF OBAMA'S THAT TRUMP DOESNT UNDO!?

Cause Trump is a racist Nazi white supremacist piece of garbage who criticizes everyone else for his own horribleness.

We warned you that Trump would do literally what he has been doing, but we were told we were wrong, we were told to 'wait and see' and we were proven right time and again, but still here we are, people are literally advocating for concentration camps, people are literally advocating for child torture.

You are still wrong, you're just especially talented at convincing yourself otherwise. You made your intelligence a dangerous thing.

Are these concentration camps or not? Answer the question.

tstorm823:

You are still wrong, you're just especially talented at convincing yourself otherwise. You made your intelligence a dangerous thing.

......have you ever seen someone own themselves so hard, pointing out their own issues, completely missing the thick raining irony in like 20 words.

tstorm823:

altnameJag:

Damn near half the workforce was involved.

If half our doctors are fucked up, that means the system is fundamentally broken

The Facebook group was half the size of border patrol. Some of the group members were verified CBP agents. I've seen nothing indicating that all or even most of that Facebook group were actually border patrol.

Agema:

Basically, if people are free to leave, it's a refugee camp. If they aren't, then it's a concentration camp.

For the record, this is precisely what I'm saying.

Having the option of accepting deportation-- or one's absent parents having that option-- is not the same thing as being free to leave. These are people held under armed guard. If they try to walk out of the facility, they will be stopped by those armed guards.

The idea that whether something is a concentration camp would turn on having an option of going to an entirely different country is absurd. Well, Hitler said you can go to Madagascar, guess it's not a concentration camp now! No.

Seanchaidh:
Well, Hitler said you can go to Madagascar

Fucking what now?

googles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Why have I never heard of this?

undeadsuitor:

......have you ever seen someone own themselves so hard, pointing out their own issues, completely missing the thick raining irony in like 20 words.

Everywhere, all the time. At this point I'm pretty sure it's not a bug, but a feature.

Saelune:

Are these concentration camps or not? Answer the question.

No, they aren't. There is no such thing as a concentration camp you enter voluntarily. Nor is there such a thing as a concentration camp you can choose to leave. Currently, the majority of people caught by CBP are released within the day, and the majority of people detained willingly turned themselves in. I've posted a source in this thread with that info. Unless you can show me otherwise, you have nothing at all but the desire to demonize others.

To those suggesting it's like Madagascar: no, deporting people to the nation they are citizens of is not the same thing as forcibly relocating people to a prison colony on an island off a different continent.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

Are these concentration camps or not? Answer the question.

No, they aren't. There is no such thing as a concentration camp you enter voluntarily. Nor is there such a thing as a concentration camp you can choose to leave. Currently, the majority of people caught by CBP are released within the day, and the majority of people detained willingly turned themselves in. I've posted a source in this thread with that info. Unless you can show me otherwise, you have nothing at all but the desire to demonize others.

To those suggesting it's like Madagascar: no, deporting people to the nation they are citizens of is not the same thing as forcibly relocating people to a prison colony on an island off a different continent.

Kyle Gaddo:
Just chiming in to say:

They're concentration camps.

Any historian will tell you that that is the correct term to use.

If any of you have a different opinion and can provide your documented expertise, then you are welcome to.

Ok, fine, despite fitting the definition of concentration camps, they aren't concentration camps for no defensible reason.

Either way, in these, let's call them Super Happy Fun Camps, people are subjected to appalling treatment, deliberately. So, maybe the way this Super Happy Fun Camps business could do with a rethink?

Shadowstar38:

Seanchaidh:
Well, Hitler said you can go to Madagascar

Fucking what now?

googles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Why have I never heard of this?

Because History books prefer not to mention the fact the main plan of the Nazis was to get jews out rather than de-facto killing them. Because once you get into that chapter you also come across the one which shows the Allies did as little as they could to help Jews immigrate to their country because they didn't want them either.

But that's off topic.

On topic, while I firmly believe what the Trump administration is doing to be wrong due to the conditions in which this is all happening immigration is probably one of the morally most difficult issues to handle. On one hand opening the borders entirely may appear to be the moral thing to do. But on the other hand it's just not that simple.

Regardless of one's opinion about it mass migration has a tendency to lead to conflicts and tensions with the natives in the host nation. And these conflicts can escalate.
But that is not the main issue, the main issue is that opening your borders tends to exacerbate the problem by inciting more people to try and cross it. And the question than becomes, how to properly integrate all those masses? Many come from nations with different cultures, they speak different languages, may not have skills required in the job market or even worse they may import local conflicts in the host nation.
Another issue is that allowing unhappy people out of one nation is also reducing the pressure in that nation against the governing bodies and may slow down the necessary evolution the country needs to go through. Very often people emigrating are those who have the financial means necessary to make the journey, the physical capabilities or have sufficient professional skills to hope for a much better future in the host nation. These profiles are typically the ones a country in turmoil needs to get through a crisis and recover afterwards.

But off course all of this doesn't justify detention in inhumane conditions.

Shadowstar38:

Seanchaidh:
Well, Hitler said you can go to Madagascar

Fucking what now?

googles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

Why have I never heard of this?

Killing Commies/Jews/Romanis wasn't an idea til late 41. While they didn't mind killing them and encouraged citizens to commit violence, they were more about deporting them.

Then France surrendered. Meaning a lot of these Undesirables they had kicked out were now back in German hands. This was deemed ineffective way of dealing with them. Hence a final solution

Also, while we are talking about crazy deportation to Africa. Lincoln stated he wanted to continue the Liberia plan. Because he wasnt an abolitionist. He was a Free Soiler and letting former slave run around would ruin the economy

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