[Politics] Trump and Concentration Camps

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Saelune:

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

Name dropping Denmark as an example of a good country is ironic in a thread like this. Denmark is the country that has instituted a law that allows the Danish state to confiscate valuables and money from refugees seeking asylum in Denmark, as a way for the refugees to "pay for their stay" (compare: Nazi-Germany confiscating Jewish valuables to "repossess everything the Jews stole"). Denmark is also the country that, just earlier this year, passed a law that allows them to deport any refugee that commits a crime in Denmark. Said deportation will occur after they've served their sentence on an island that will be re purposed to a refugee prison (to keep them out of proper Danish prisons). If the refugees can't return to their home country (due to war, persecution etc.) they will stay on the prison island indefinitely until they can be deported.

Denmark isn't quite in the same league as the US in terms of concentration camps for refugees, but it isn't due to any lack of effort on Denmark's part.

Gethsemani:

Saelune:

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

Name dropping Denmark as an example of a good country is ironic in a thread like this. Denmark is the country that has instituted a law that allows the Danish state to confiscate valuables and money from refugees seeking asylum in Denmark, as a way for the refugees to "pay for their stay" (compare: Nazi-Germany confiscating Jewish valuables to "repossess everything the Jews stole"). Denmark is also the country that, just earlier this year, passed a law that allows them to deport any refugee that commits a crime in Denmark. Said deportation will occur after they've served their sentence on an island that will be re purposed to a refugee prison (to keep them out of proper Danish prisons). If the refugees can't return to their home country (due to war, persecution etc.) they will stay on the prison island indefinitely until they can be deported.

Denmark isn't quite in the same league as the US in terms of concentration camps for refugees, but it isn't due to any lack of effort on Denmark's part.

'But Europe is more left-wing than the US'. Fine, no country has socialism. Still proves my point that this BS argument of 'When has Socialism ever worked' is well, bullshit. No country has ever actually truly tried to give a fuck about its people, and that needs to change.

lastjustice:

Saelune:
Yes, Trump has made literally everything worse. And yes, you are using a lot of bad arguments. Like, really really bad arguments. You call me hyperbolic while being hyperbolic, you use tokenism as an excuse for racism, you criticize the left for 'generalizing' when Trump does it ALL THE TIME.

You haven't give back a single bit of logic than No you're wrong. Trump can be a raging asshole, but the difference is he actually denounces terrorists. (unlike the squad.)

Empathy is a good thing. Multiple times you use 'bleeding heart' as an insult. Its not. Caring is good. A lack of it is nothing to be proud of.

Yeah it's definitely an insult. I care...difference is I get off my ass and help people. Put my money where my mouth is. I don't let emotions run me, as I compartmentalize them from what I need to do. I have dealt with fires personally rather than wait for the fire department, and I could feel the heat on my face. I thought man this could blow up in my face and kill me, and just laughed to myself. I didn't want the fire rage out of control and harm my family. I'm afraid of heights, but I've gone up high and done things anyways. I don't believe you should ever let your emotions rule you. That's how you make stupid decisions without a plan.

'I don't believe in parties' my ass. You have made it very clear with this post you are pro-Republican, anti-Democrat. I am tired of 'Im a moderate/centrist, but Republicans are always right but don't you dare claim I support them, despite how I only support them'.

I voted for Obama and didn't vote for Trump. Figure that one out.One my coworkers said me, I've a liberal all my life. I didn't move, but the left kept walking and went somewhere I couldn't follow. If you think the current messenge and climate of the left is sane or healthy, you have another thing coming. There's so many people walking away from the left. Watch how black and gay conversatives get embraced by the tolerant left. They will get called all sorts of horrible names by people who claim have issue with that sort of behaviour. It's fine long as it's done to people you don't agree with.

Tell me the people who melted down on youtube in videos are being sane after Trump got elected. Or when they unfriended their friends and family on social media as reasonable. I'm sure there's clowns on the right, but majority seem be willing actually listen to out points of view in this current climate. I geniunely pity moderate left who wants no part of the extreme that has become the face of their party. America isn't about one way or one size fits all. The left needs get their crap together as I don't want to see a version of this where every bad idea the right has goes thru unopposed. It's checks and balances.

Name a country where capitalism has worked. Name a country where despotism has worked. No country has done socialism. No, Venezuela is not socialism. And countries like Denmark are doing fine anyways.

The USA is one of the greatest countries in the world. People wouldn't be trying come here if it was remotely as crappy as you make it out to be.

Denmark isn't a socialist country. Venezula is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEPKrHalaY

You cant complain about the government taking money for use for others AND support Republicans OR Trump. You are 100% a hypocrite if you do. Or has Trump invited you on his golf trips?

Did you find it a massive issue when Obama put more mileage on Air force one than all 3 of the presidents before him? That guy played tons of golf on the government dime. He just was better at writing it off than Trump is. Yeah I'm going talk to this guy here...then later that afternoon playing golf.

Plenty of golf courses taking up wasted space.

What is your deal with golf? Did some guy chase you off one as a lil kid with a 5 iron and horribly scar you or something? People pay for them to exist, and they generate money. I don't see what's the axe to grind about it? Again you seem think if someone has something it's ok to take it from them. As long as these people pay for their property and services I see no reason it shouldn't exist.

If you hate immigrants, you have to hate colonialism. Otherwise you're a hypocrite. 'But no law existed yet' my ass. It wasnt their land to take, and they did not take it to work jobs for the Native Americans either. But hey, lets talk about how Texas was stolen from Mexico, oh right, that would break your narrative, wouldnt it?

Yup I totally hate immigrants...why I went to the matt to support a relative who married an illegal. But sure hate only concept you understand so don't bother thinking right? I'm part cherokee, but I really hate native americans. Here's fun lesson for you...history is full of brutal shit. People are really good at killing each other,(If there's aliens in space, they know stay heck away from us heh.) if any part of you're comfortable with you likely have issues. I accept that's who and what we are and who have been. I don't make excuses for it. We're trying be better when and where we can. History is a record of events not a rap sheet beat people over the head with till end of the time. The goal is to not repeat the worst part and learn from them.

Most of the country is racist. To pretend otherwise is ignoring facts. You did say you were a 'realist', didnt you?

Not really, but you want to see it that way, be my guest.If you ask black intellectuals what the number issue is for them? Their answer isn't systemic racism. It's the breaking up of the nuclear families (which entitlement programs play a major factor toward.), kids being raised with out a father. The statics prove this, unlike what you're saying.

Which this video if you want to see more about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo

So its ok for YOU to blame whole groups but not me? The cops are an organization that refuses to self-regulate.

What are cops supposedly doing? Let me guess you're referring to minorities being shot, that's like protesting shark attacks and lightning strike, as that's high likely it is to be shot by a cop. Cops screw up, they're human beings, but they are not going around shooting people like the media would suggest. The facts don't agree with your narrative at all if that's what you're going for. Cops have had plenty of push back since the media jumping all over these instances, as there's all kinds of extra training and precautions being taken like body cams. I have cops in my family, so I have a finger on the pulse on how this plays out. They definitely have answer to what goes wrong.

I dont see you doing anything to help. Again, I question your claim of being a 'realist'.

I help the people I do with locally. Whether you see me or not I do not care. The people I help do. I'm the guy who pulls over help people stalled out or whatever situation I see that comes up. I do what I can.(and get out of the way when a professional shows up.) I don't spend my time getting worked up over things I have no intention of making a difference with.

You're making bad excuses and not arguing in good faith AT ALL. I have done this dog and pony show enough as is.

Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Saelune:
Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

tstorm823:

Saelune:
Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Saelune:
Being a good person makes people hate you. That is all I have learned. Giving a fuck has made me tons of enemies, and that is fucked up. Why is caring so offensive to so many people?

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

Right, you demonize the people who rescue migrants who would die in the wilderness.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

tstorm823:

Please, step back for a moment and consider what you'd think if I typed out a post here saying "being a good person makes people hate me".

I don't defend concentration camps.

Right, you demonize the people who rescue migrants who would die in the wilderness.

You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

Saelune:
You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

I'm not spinning anything. CBP saves thousands of lives annually. Crossing the border through the barren wilderness is incredibly dangerous, so border patrol has a fleet of trained EMTs and professional rescuers to save people who would otherwise die daily.

As far as detention centers, you're thinking of it as though if people aren't detained, they are free to go as they please. That's not the options presented. The options are detained or deported. If you catch someone breaking the law to get into the country, you can't just say "well you're here now, do what you want". If you do that, there is effectively no border. If we don't have a border, we can't protect people from the violence they are fleeing. Without detention centers, our options are

A) Deport all the people we catch entering the country in between legal ports of entry, which would involve sending potential refugees back to the countries they are fleeing.
B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

So we made a 3rd option, detention centers to temporarily hold people who crossed over illegally but want to make a case to stay in America. That way asylum seekers get to stay in the United States away from the horrors they're fleeing (with food and shelter and medical attention), but also the US has the ability to keep violent individuals from entering the general population. It's a system designed to protect people, including those detained.

Yes, it needs reform, particularly to adapt to changing conditions over time. But if you think that any of these systems exist to hurt people, you are wrong. If we wanted to risk the lives of refugees, we wouldn't even hear their case after they broke our laws. If the goal was to punish illegal aliens, we wouldn't make them separate centers, we'd toss them into the regular prisons that are meant for punishment. I'm not defending concentration camps, I'm telling you that these aren't concentration camps.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
You cant seriously be trying to spin CONCENTRATION CAMPS as saving people?

I'm not spinning anything. CBP saves thousands of lives annually. Crossing the border through the barren wilderness is incredibly dangerous, so border patrol has a fleet of trained EMTs and professional rescuers to save people who would otherwise die daily.

As far as detention centers, you're thinking of it as though if people aren't detained, they are free to go as they please. That's not the options presented. The options are detained or deported. If you catch someone breaking the law to get into the country, you can't just say "well you're here now, do what you want". If you do that, there is effectively no border. If we don't have a border, we can't protect people from the violence they are fleeing. Without detention centers, our options are

A) Deport all the people we catch entering the country in between legal ports of entry, which would involve sending potential refugees back to the countries they are fleeing.
B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

So we made a 3rd option, detention centers to temporarily hold people who crossed over illegally but want to make a case to stay in America. That way asylum seekers get to stay in the United States away from the horrors they're fleeing (with food and shelter and medical attention), but also the US has the ability to keep violent individuals from entering the general population. It's a system designed to protect people, including those detained.

Yes, it needs reform, particularly to adapt to changing conditions over time. But if you think that any of these systems exist to hurt people, you are wrong. If we wanted to risk the lives of refugees, we wouldn't even hear their case after they broke our laws. If the goal was to punish illegal aliens, we wouldn't make them separate centers, we'd toss them into the regular prisons that are meant for punishment. I'm not defending concentration camps, I'm telling you that these aren't concentration camps.

You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

Saelune:
You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

tstorm823:

B) Allow people to move freely in America until their court date, which would involve allowing not valid refugees, potentially the people refugees are fleeing from, to enter the US and disappear until they commit some heinous crime.

Firstly, most not valid refugees who might disappear have no interest in committing heinous crime and almost certainly won't.

Secondly, the people refugees are fleeing from will generally be able to enter the USA at will, because people are normally fleeing oppressive governments, government agencies and officials, who by their nature tend not to have criminal records. They might be fleeing criminal organisations, but organised crime has lots of ways of crossing the border already without trying to sneak past the refugee system. One might note that those who are able to bully others out of their country are more inclined to stay in their own, because of course the system in that country is already working to their benefit.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

You defend concentration camps.

Agema:

Firstly, most not valid refugees who might disappear have no interest in committing heinous crime and almost certainly won't.

Secondly, the people refugees are fleeing from will generally be able to enter the USA at will, because people are normally fleeing oppressive governments, government agencies and officials, who by their nature tend not to have criminal records. They might be fleeing criminal organisations, but organised crime has lots of ways of crossing the border already without trying to sneak past the refugee system. One might note that those who are able to bully others out of their country are more inclined to stay in their own, because of course the system in that country is already working to their benefit.

It wouldn't be sneaking past the refugee system, it would be crossing illegally and then claiming to want refugee status to just continue on their way. Quick reminder, it's not refugees and asylum seekers being detained, it's specifically people who were caught jumping the border. You say they have easier ways to cross the border than game the refugee system, but people being detained are those who were caught using one of those easier ways to cross the border. If you say organized crime crosses over without touching the asylum program, I say "yes, exactly, that's who is detained. Border crossers." We just give them the opportunity to plead their case after being caught. If saying "yes, I would like a hearing" got you the right to move around the country freely, of course it would be abused. That's never been the option though, even in the catch and release era, they weren't offering that to people who even remotely fit the drug mule profile. The suggestion that detention centers are evil and shouldn't exist would initiate a new era of immigration law different than what we've experienced that would be exceptionally ripe for abuse.

But your idea of people fleeing oppressive governments isn't really the profile of the average asylum seekers currently. That's the classic idea of a refugee, but central americans by and large aren't fleeing government persecution, they are fleeing those crime organizations. That's a big reason to come all the way here in the first place: if someone is fleeing persecution from the government of Honduras, they just need to get out of Honduras. They come to the US because they need a nation that is capable and willing to protect them from international crime organizations. That's the issue with "first safe country" suggestions: I'd love if other countries had first safe country agreements to care for refugees before they get to the US, but only if that means they are actually safe refuge, and they currently aren't. They need to get further than just the next country over specifically cause they're fleeing violence that can follow them. they are fleeing to the US because the US is the best chance they have of not being followed. Border security is a not insignificant part of that.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

Why are these people Overburdened? Trump's mandate. It seems like every independent voice who's gone there to see it has decried it as the worst conditions they have ever seen. Trump is refusing to let the U.N. see it, for good reason.

This is strictly done by the US Government. They have less Border Patrol Agents than Obama, so less people to actually help facilitate any real humane treatment. There is no room, but Trump still looks for ways to throw more people into the grinder. There is limited food, water, people aren't bathing, and the answer to this is to wait and deal with what you have at the moment.

And nope. Just continue. Do more. This isn't a horrible hurricane that there was no way to plan for. A man signed an act, ignored people who said it was unwise and that they didn't have the capability, ignored law and precedent, tries to pressure judges to make the process go faster, and just doesn't care that people are suffering under his order.

This is all done by his order.

Trump isn't against more resources for border security, Democrats are the people actively trying to defund CBP and ICE. Also, it's not disregarding law to detain everyone caught, it's disregarding law not to detain them all, so in a grand sense, it's Congress's fault for ignoring immigration laws for decades while knowing the issues.

But even disregarding that, I'm not disagreeing that there's people in tragic positions at the border. I'm not disagreeing with the idea that Trump's plans aren't helping. What I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of detention centers as concentration camps.

Like, you're acknowledging that if the burden was lower, the centers would be good. That if they had room and resources, there'd be acceptable conditions for people to stay for valid reasons. And we'd be right back to them not being "concentration camps". Like, if Trump took funding from a hospital, and people died as a result, go ahead and be mad at Trump, but people shouldn't start calling all hospitals Trump's gas chambers, cause that suggests the hospitals are evil tools made for evil purposes.

Detention centers are not concentration camps. That's the point I care about, because claiming that they are leads to the wrong solution.

I'm.. .not saying that they are disregarding law to detain everyone caught. I literally stated as much before when I said that I was ok with Obama removing Criminals and turning back recently caught crossers. Even if I disagree with it, it is the law. No two ways about that.

The disregarding of law part comes from the mandate of Trump that this all has to be done now, now, now and it forces children to be in the processing center for more that 72 hours.

Look at it this way. A school is a place for education. It needs a specific ratio of teachers to students to have the system work correctly. And as Saelune and anyone else from the Gold Standard Tri-State Area (That one's for you, Schadrach) knows, that's not the case for New York City at all.

Although built to be a school, these buildings become little more than day care centers, as it's been shown over and over again that overcrowding in schools affect a child's education to the point that it's questionable if they even had one worthy of the United States of America's ideals.

And there, we're talking about our children not getting enough supplies, handouts, and BOOKS to learn information. It's hard to look at a school and call it a school if children aren't being taught.

Much like it's easier to call these detention centers Concentration Centers because while it was intended for one function, choices on how to handle these families without any care of the facilities available makes them into Concentration Centers. Yes, if this was done in a more humane way, we would still have our moral issues but that is the law. However, due to one person's trying to appeal to voters, he's disregarding humanity and subjecting children to conditions that we would beat someone into a pulp if they did that for one of our family members.

Bleeding heart or The Strictest Conservative, that is a universal feeling. If you subject my younger family members to those conditions, there will be violence. I won't be flowery, I won't make a bombastic quote to show how powerful I'll be. There will be violence. I will most likely rightfully be arrested. But I won't be alone. You would do the same. Saelune. Trunkage. Zontar, where ever he is. Lil Devils X. CM156. AltnameJag. Ertheking. Worgen. Xprimentyl. All of us.

And just let someone say "Well, we had to expose your innocent family members to this because of something their parents did". It's still punishing the children for the parents' crimes. Unacceptable. The Punishment of the wrong-doers should not damage the innocents tied to it. And if you can't figure out how to do that with the resources at hand, hold off until you can. Because you can't have the moral high ground when you treat humans like this. Especially children. I will never budge on that.

lastjustice:
I come and go as my from this site as I feel like it. I happen be seeing alot of politic debates raging online, so like a moth to flame here I am. I don't recall you, but I appreciate the greeting.

Hey, I believe in community. I don't agree with everyone here, but I will respect everyone as much as they warrant. This is the first conversation we are having, so even if we disagree, I want to make sure it started off at the right foot.

If we get along, we get along. If we can't stand each other, we can't stand each other. Even if we don't spend another passing thought on each other, at least we started off as gentle-people.

I don't play favorites.You seems a bit more reasonable for whatever that's worth.

I know people don't believe me, but so is Saelune. It just gets really tiring to see all these things around you and be told "You're exaggerating" or "who cares?"

Not sure what all this good faith business is in this thread...do I need post some collerate before posting in the thread heh? Either you accept I'm doing what I do in earnest...or you don't. If I just sought troll people I'd find more creative solutions than this.

This is a valid point and it's something that I think we all could take some time to explain.

Good faith doesn't just have to be about reporting your feelings earnestly. But more over, it has to do with presenting the facts but also what do the facts mean. You're absolutely right that Obama deported more people than ever before. But those numbers actually fit with the narrative that most conservatives actually want. 91 percent of those who were deported were illegals who committed a crime. That's great. I think anyone on both sides gets that.

But people present the fact like it's some sort of Gotcha. That's the essence of why people keep on talking about good faith. Are we talking about what things mean, or are we just trying to point to wrong doing.

I don't know you, so I'm asking. There are people here who just say numbers, but never look into what they mean. A conversation with someone like that will probably not yield any understanding because a good deal of the time, they just want some factoid to add along with their views so they seem justified.

But in reading what you have to further say, I can't say that where you're coming from is from any malice. So I'm glad I inquired instead of assuming.

I did vote for Obama...once. I did not vote for him a second time as I had buyers remorse. I didn't vote for Trump(or Clinton), and fan is a strong term for my feelings on him. He's a mixed bag, but the left being so insane as of late I can't stand with them. They seem want to make policy let anyone in the country freely, and give away everything. They have platofrms of giving away freestuff not actual answers.

I'm a moderate who leans to right. I voted independent in past two elections since my state goes blue no matter what I do. Illinois hasn't been red since George Bush Sr got elected. I remember that because I was young and I was upset my state was red, because I wanted it to be blue because I like blue more when my teacher had us coloring the map for after the election. I also like the guy's name was Michael like mine, but that's the political depths of a small child.

Rather break everything else you said line by line, I will go for the abridged answer. Trump doesn't get everything correct. He not beyond criticism for me. My core point of comparing both presidents is that this mode of operation has been happening since the 90s. This didn't magically become this racially charged issue before, just the media is spinning it as such, and democrats who have illegals voting for them don't want to speak against it. These are same people who are not denounce the anittifa attacks. (Such as the squad.) I am not okay with law enforcement being potshooted by terrorists because the media is selling a farce about this sitation..it's extremely dangerous.

Here's a fun video about democrats saying most of what been said by the current president, just it's somehow racist now and against legal citizens. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBOdt30ABJE (It was compiled by a trump supporter, so bare with it.)

I agreed the who we are deporting is definitely important. Not say people here illegally for any reason somehow get a pass. We need people who are here be legit, and we need work out something. I grew up in a heavily hispanic neighborhood so I say that as someone who has a family member who came here illegally. They was born in mexico and didn't realize till they got older they weren't here legally. They married into my family, I made sure help them get legit as I helped them get thru the process. I didn't wish see them get caught up with the system.

Ultimately I do feel for people who have been here for decades and were raised in the US as it's only country they've known.It's a complicated matter but again I'm all for making the process of people becoming legit made easier. I feel like just giving everyone status as citizens isn't the answer either otherwise there's no point in anyone going thru the proper channels. We send the messenge just take the matter into your own hands, we will eventually cave and give you citizenship. I do feel anyone who enlists as an illegal, should be taken as steps toward being legit, and their families. That seems like a fair exchange. So yeah that sucks if people armed forces families are being deported. Whether trump actually targetting these people, or what not I'm not going immediately buy into without proof or context, but I agree with the spirit of that concept shouldn't be happening if it is. As someone who's been enlisted, I can't imagine being in that situation, you're trying do your job and having worry about your family backhome. It's terrible for morale, so I don't see why any leader would want to engage in that.

I agree the situation needs be improved, but I'm not of the view it's all been from a place of hate.

First off, I don't have a problem with free stuff. I give to charity all the time.

I do think the stuff should actually help. If the programs lead to contributing members of society, there's no problem with that. If we're helping older people who have no one and nothing, I see no fault in that as well. Meals on Wheels, Education boosters like tutoring, Hell, we grow enough food that it could be dirt cheap for all... But Subsidies and all. Making sure that we have able citizens to take the reigns instead of people that have no idea what to do is always the best option in my mind.

Now, here's the thing. We have reports of average citizens questioning other people's nationality. It's something of late that's become increasingly common. A sentiment that members of this population use to harass fellow citizens no matter if they were born here or not. Some in the past, Some very close. And let's not forget, this is a game the entire family can play

Simply put, It's Robbing People of their voice. The freedom we as a people are supposed to hold most paramount. In fact, we have to have a map of all the incidents that people are now committing under the 'Gospel of Trump.'

Simply put, it's racial because people are making it racial. Again, Obama deported masses amount of illegals. But no one considered it racist because he didn't go for families that had roots here. He went for the criminals and turned back recent crossers (from Jan 2014, I believe). And that's fine. But most of all, He didn't hold rallies decrying immigrants and calling them criminals. Trump did.

Now, don't get me wrong. This kind of hate always happened in this country. But over my life time (80's baby), I've never head "Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush/Obama was right, you need to get the hell out of my country". They are saying it now because it's the rhetoric that Trump is spewing and it's one of the very reasons these people elected them in.

I'm with you. I would rather people who came in here had a better chance for success. What I would love is if we just could stop with the politicking and sit down to discuss this without parties. If we were just humans talking to humans. Immigrants are what this nation was built off of. If I'm honest, I rather people who are willing to risk their lives to be here than some rich kid who heard they could party with mommy and daddy's millions here. Those people who are willing to risk mutilation and death are people who will give to this country more than they take. Those are true citizens in the making.

Will we get there? I can hope.

ObsidianJones:

I'm.. .not saying that they are disregarding law to detain everyone caught. I literally stated as much before when I said that I was ok with Obama removing Criminals and turning back recently caught crossers. Even if I disagree with it, it is the law. No two ways about that.

The disregarding of law part comes from the mandate of Trump that this all has to be done now, now, now and it forces children to be in the processing center for more that 72 hours.

Look at it this way. A school is a place for education. It needs a specific ratio of teachers to students to have the system work correctly. And as Saelune and anyone else from the Gold Standard Tri-State Area (That one's for you, Schadrach) knows, that's not the case for New York City at all.

Although built to be a school, these buildings become little more than day care centers, as it's been shown over and over again that overcrowding in schools affect a child's education to the point that it's questionable if they even had one worthy of the United States of America's ideals.

And there, we're talking about our children not getting enough supplies, handouts, and BOOKS to learn information. It's hard to look at a school and call it a school if children aren't being taught.

Much like it's easier to call these detention centers Concentration Centers because while it was intended for one function, choices on how to handle these families without any care of the facilities available makes them into Concentration Centers. Yes, if this was done in a more humane way, we would still have our moral issues but that is the law. However, due to one person's trying to appeal to voters, he's disregarding humanity and subjecting children to conditions that we would beat someone into a pulp if they did that for one of our family members.

Bleeding heart or The Strictest Conservative, that is a universal feeling. If you subject my younger family members to those conditions, there will be violence. I won't be flowery, I won't make a bombastic quote to show how powerful I'll be. There will be violence. I will most likely rightfully be arrested. But I won't be alone. You would do the same. Saelune. Trunkage. Zontar, where ever he is. Lil Devils X. CM156. AltnameJag. Ertheking. Worgen. Xprimentyl. All of us.

And just let someone say "Well, we had to expose your innocent family members to this because of something their parents did". It's still punishing the children for the parents' crimes. Unacceptable. The Punishment of the wrong-doers should not damage the innocents tied to it. And if you can't figure out how to do that with the resources at hand, hold off until you can. Because you can't have the moral high ground when you treat humans like this. Especially children. I will never budge on that.

Serious question: what do you mean by "hold off"? How does one hold off on detaining border crossers. We can't just decide to have fewer people cross illegally (though some would argue for a wall to do that), nor can we hold off on legal asylum applicants to get through the illegal ones faster without people crying foul about metering at the border.

These detention centers aren't filled with people who were caught by ICE, they have deportation orders ready. They aren't filled with asylum seekers who came through a port of entry, because those don't get detained. The detention centers are overflowing with recent border jumpers. The recent crossers you say it's ok to turn back are the people filling these centers. It isn't actually the law to turn people back if they crossed recently. That only happens if they waive their right to an immigration hearing. It's the policy of the United States to allow people on US soil to plead their case to stay before deporting them. That is the people in detention, that is the thing they are in detention waiting for. It's not like we catch people and stick them in a building for a couple months to make them sweat before deporting them anyway, they are waiting for an immigration hearing. Nor are we going out to round up illegal immigrants to fill these places deliberately, that's just how many people are jumping the border right now.

If we can process people faster, that'd be a great way to ease the overcrowding. But I don't know how we're supposed to hold off instead. To hold off on detaining people jumping the border (without being able to control how many people jump the border), we'd have to either deport people without hearing asylum claims or allow them freedom in the US before hearing their claims. I'm not sure which of those you would suggest we do. And like, you put a lot of this on Trump as though all we need to do is be less Trumpy and we'd go back to the way things were before Trump. I don't know if you know the details of what's happening at the southern border, but very recently the demographics of people coming to the US from the south has shifted dramatically from working age men trying to get under the table employment, now it's family units and young children who aren't even trying to dodge CBP because they want to plead for asylum. With or without Trump's policies, we were going to have a crisis at the border. Unaccompanied children are coming fast enough to overburden the system with or without separation policies. We were destined to need relief bills, and we certainly need reform.

But like, to extend your school analogy, because it's a good analogy, a school ceases to really be a school if it can't teach the children. I agree. If your school system is so overcrowded as to be unable to teach kids, that isn't reason to demonize schools and give up on them. The solution to that problem is more schools, more staffing, more support. It's not as though you can just hold off on educating some kids until the overcrowding is passed, you have to ramp up your program to keep pace with the amount of children to educate. If the asylum process is ceasing to function as a refuge for people due to overburden, you can't just hold off until the overburden subsides, you have to ramp up the program to keep pace with the people coming here. The solution is to improve processes, increase the courts, fund better facilities. You can't do that while calling them concentration camps. You can't say "well, what we really need is more concentration camps, and bigger!" As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

tstorm823:

Saelune:
You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

No one cares about what you are; just what you do.

CaitSeith:

tstorm823:

Saelune:
You keep doing the things you claim you aren't doing.

You must just hate me for being a good person.

No one cares about what you are; just what you do.

In case it was missed, that was a riff off of an earlier comment. I do not actually think Saelune hates me for being a good person.

tstorm823:
Serious question: what do you mean by "hold off"? How does one hold off on detaining border crossers. We can't just decide to have fewer people cross illegally (though some would argue for a wall to do that), nor can we hold off on legal asylum applicants to get through the illegal ones faster without people crying foul about metering at the border.

These detention centers aren't filled with people who were caught by ICE, they have deportation orders ready. They aren't filled with asylum seekers who came through a port of entry, because those don't get detained. The detention centers are overflowing with recent border jumpers. The recent crossers you say it's ok to turn back are the people filling these centers. It isn't actually the law to turn people back if they crossed recently. That only happens if they waive their right to an immigration hearing. It's the policy of the United States to allow people on US soil to plead their case to stay before deporting them. That is the people in detention, that is the thing they are in detention waiting for. It's not like we catch people and stick them in a building for a couple months to make them sweat before deporting them anyway, they are waiting for an immigration hearing. Nor are we going out to round up illegal immigrants to fill these places deliberately, that's just how many people are jumping the border right now.

If we can process people faster, that'd be a great way to ease the overcrowding. But I don't know how we're supposed to hold off instead. To hold off on detaining people jumping the border (without being able to control how many people jump the border), we'd have to either deport people without hearing asylum claims or allow them freedom in the US before hearing their claims. I'm not sure which of those you would suggest we do. And like, you put a lot of this on Trump as though all we need to do is be less Trumpy and we'd go back to the way things were before Trump. I don't know if you know the details of what's happening at the southern border, but very recently the demographics of people coming to the US from the south has shifted dramatically from working age men trying to get under the table employment, now it's family units and young children who aren't even trying to dodge CBP because they want to plead for asylum. With or without Trump's policies, we were going to have a crisis at the border. Unaccompanied children are coming fast enough to overburden the system with or without separation policies. We were destined to need relief bills, and we certainly need reform.

But like, to extend your school analogy, because it's a good analogy, a school ceases to really be a school if it can't teach the children. I agree. If your school system is so overcrowded as to be unable to teach kids, that isn't reason to demonize schools and give up on them. The solution to that problem is more schools, more staffing, more support. It's not as though you can just hold off on educating some kids until the overcrowding is passed, you have to ramp up your program to keep pace with the amount of children to educate. If the asylum process is ceasing to function as a refuge for people due to overburden, you can't just hold off until the overburden subsides, you have to ramp up the program to keep pace with the people coming here. The solution is to improve processes, increase the courts, fund better facilities. You can't do that while calling them concentration camps. You can't say "well, what we really need is more concentration camps, and bigger!" As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

If it were just people who entered here illegally, I wouldn't have that much to say legally. Again, it goes against my morals, but we're not talking about my morals. But even after following the rules that Trump's administration laid out, Asylum Seekers waited for months to do everything legal just to be added to a list that probably bars them from future entry.

The Trump administration has long said that there's a right way to seek asylum in the United States: Come to an official port of entry at the border, then invoke the right under U.S. law to humanitarian protection.

But now, thousands of people are being barred from the U.S. precisely because they followed those rules.

Under an administration policy issued last week, most migrants who've passed through a third country - say, Mexico - will not even be allowed to request asylum at official border crossings.

That includes thousands of asylum-seekers - from countries like Cuba, Venezuela and Cameroon - who were already waiting at Mexican border towns to gain entry to U.S. ports when the new rule took effect.

Because the Trump administration has strictly limited the number of asylum-seekers allowed to enter most of the US/Mexico border's busiest ports each day, these migrants signed on to unofficial waitlists and spent months waiting to gain legal entry to the U.S. as asylum-seekers.

One little-noticed consequence of the new policy is that those who decided against entering the US illegally are now paying a price for having followed the rules. Had they simply crossed into the U.S. illegally when they arrived, they would have had their asylum claims heard under the rules in place at that time. But by choosing to wait to set foot on US soil and trigger their asylum rights, they'll now be subjected to the new regulation once they do enter - a rule which renders most of them ineligible.

Trump's Administration has done that. So I'm going to mention Trump.

DACA recipents did everything right. They followed the rules. And when once promised protection from a constantly flip-flopping Donald Trump and his administration... Trump ended DACA. That affects 800,000 people who were following the laws.

ICE is going after them. It keeps happening. And it probably won't stop, as it's been happening for a while.

From Law-abiding to 'Here Illegally'. Creating more flow and Processing necessity as ICE scoops more people who has only known this country, who has studied and wanted to be something here.

Trump's Administration has done that. So I'm going to mention Trump.

I'll put everything on Trump because it's Trump that is guiding this ship. No one else. Because that increase you are talking about again comes from Trump's own words and actions. Here's the reality of the situation and how it differs from the issues that Trump wants us to believe in.

I'm glad you like my School Analogy, because it's one that fits. Because if, say, all children have to have a mandatory education and all children are equal under the law... and a president goes "Lulz, just kidding. Totes Bigoted, y'all. We're going to use School Records to keep tabs on the poor and the minorities so we can track them and arrest them at our leisure", then it's no longer a school. It becomes a trap.

Just like thousands of people listened to this Administration, wanted to be in this country legally so they did what was told of them, and then that Administration turned on the loud speaker and said "Seekers, thank you for coming here and signing up your name and your details. It's been very helpful to us. We now know who you are, and we're going to use that information to make sure you'll never get into this country legally. Thanks for waiting those months while we got you all sorted out".

As many articles said, these people would have ironically had more chance for Asylum Seekers if they came to the country illegally. But their choice has ruined their chances because of one man changing the rules.

But, to answer your question... How to hold off? We shouldn't change the rules to create 800,000 more people to process. We shouldn't change the rules that leads to Military families who were protected now be subject to removal. We shouldn't be deporting Vets who fought for this country. He shouldn't deport the Iraqi Christians that voted for him, and put them in a situation where it is VASTLY dangerous for a Christian to be. Especially an Americanized one.

The short answer? Any number of ways.

ObsidianJones:

But, to answer your question... How to hold off? We shouldn't change the rules to create 800,000 more people to process. We shouldn't change the rules that leads to Military families who were protected now be subject to removal. We shouldn't be deporting Vets who fought for this country. He shouldn't deport the Iraqi Christians that voted for him, and put them in a situation where it is VASTLY dangerous for a Christian to be. Especially an Americanized one.

The short answer? Any number of ways.

I agree, we shouldn't eliminate DACA and should even expand it in both the protections it offers and the people it's offered to. I agree, we shouldn't deport US veterans under any circumstances. I agree, we shouldn't deport religious minorities directly into religious persecution. But none of these things are connected to CBP detention centers. Actually, I take that back. I can imagine a situation where someone is deported unjustly and tries to sneak back into the US and ends up at a CBP detention center. But that wouldn't be normal, that's not a statistically significant thing if it's even happened at all. ICE picking up a DACA protected childhood arrival isn't burdening Border Patrol. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. You have perfectly valid grievances against Trump's immigration positions, but they aren't the topic at hand. The topic at hand is the initial claim that detention centers are "torture camps for children". And I can't agree to that. Firstly, because it's blatantly untrue. But more importantly because it's a sentiment that leads to calls for the elimination of CBP, an act that would lead to the tragic deaths of thousands of people.

tstorm823:
As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o™ the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

Eacaraxe:

tstorm823:
As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

If children were dying in schools because of bad teachers, we should stop that. Hell, we should do something to stop all these school shootings. Oh wait, Republicans care more about guns than the lives of children, so I guess that is something consistent with them.

Saelune:

Eacaraxe:

tstorm823:
As long as people are calling them concentration camps, the implication of that is to shut them all down, and that sounds to me like shutting down schools because we have too many kids to teach.

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

It's not a case of ignoring one problem because there are other problems. It's a case of not "solving" a problem in a way that creates way more.

A child sent on foot to get to America, as things are now, gets picked up by customs and border protection and has to suffer through the discomfort of group detention while their permanent home gets sorted out.

A child sent on foot to get to America, but in a world without CBP, is more likely to die of exposure in the wild or gets picked up by human traffickers and sold into sex slavery.

It's a case of getting rid of one issue by making way, way bigger ones. The intention of that list of issues isn't to say those things are more important. It's to say those are things that can't be blamed on a single politician or party, so the media and politicians ignore them because they can't make money if it's not within the team sport paradigm. The suggestion is that the many tragedies of migrants being alleviated by CBP would be ignored compared to problems with detention centers under CBP control because they can't blame one side for the problems of migrants from other countries, where they can blame Trump for detention centers.

Eacaraxe:

The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

I don't think you have, and I would consider it a personal favour if you'd continue this list (is 20 more items a reasonably request?), though I cannot 100% promise I'll open this thread again.

tstorm823:

Saelune:

Eacaraxe:

Well, yeah. And the sooner we shut them all down, the sooner we can get back to pretending undocumented immigrants don't exist when they quietly settle down into their lives of socioeconomic marginalization, underclass servant labor, and direly impoverished living conditions. Or at least, when we DuMp TrUmP 2o2o? the media will shut up about them, despite them almost certainly continuing to exist, and we can get back to pretending our shit doesn't stink. Just like:

Gitmo
Torture
CIA black sites
Drone strikes
Bombing countries we're not at war with
Engaging in global arms trade, including to terrorist and rogue states
Arming and training terrorist groups
Promoting Latin-American coups that cause refugee crises
Causing Latin-American market crashes that lead to refugee crises
Participating in and supporting blockades of humanitarian aid
The list goes on, but pretty sure I've made my point.

'We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist'?

It's not a case of ignoring one problem because there are other problems. It's a case of not "solving" a problem in a way that creates way more.

A child sent on foot to get to America, as things are now, gets picked up by customs and border protection and has to suffer through the discomfort of group detention while their permanent home gets sorted out.

A child sent on foot to get to America, but in a world without CBP, is more likely to die of exposure in the wild or gets picked up by human traffickers and sold into sex slavery.

It's a case of getting rid of one issue by making way, way bigger ones. The intention of that list of issues isn't to say those things are more important. It's to say those are things that can't be blamed on a single politician or party, so the media and politicians ignore them because they can't make money if it's not within the team sport paradigm. The suggestion is that the many tragedies of migrants being alleviated by CBP would be ignored compared to problems with detention centers under CBP control because they can't blame one side for the problems of migrants from other countries, where they can blame Trump for detention centers.

Ya know, if we fixed the police, most of these problems would also be less problematic.

Instead of treating all immigrants as guilty of being bad people inherently, why not let good cops who do good jobs deal with the actual 'bad hombres', on top of that, a reliable police force means we can work to them ya know, doing their jobs and stopping actual crime like said human trafficking.

But no, you want to let children die because you assume they are bad people right from the start.

Killing children should never be considered a 'solution'.

Id prefer completely open immigration and a reliable police force than concentration camps and thugs in blue.

Why is the options for these kids either torture in a death camp, or torture as a sex slave? Why not neither?

Saelune:
We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist?

"We" shouldn't be pretending problems only exist when someone we don't like is in office, pretending only those problems exist, and only in the form most politically expedient.

For example, I'm sure you're aware the "refugee caravan(s)" originated in Honduras, people fleeing violence and economic breakdown. I'm sure you're equally aware the violence and economic breakdown were thanks to the coup which removed Zelaya from office. And I'd bet cold, hard cash you're aware Zelaya was removed from office for being yet another in a sixty-year-long ling of legitimately-elected, left-wing Latin-American politicians who tried to help their people by redistributing wealth from the hands of a small group of landed and moneyed elite, who can trace their history of elitism through US-backed fruit companies straight to the era of Spanish colonialism.

And of course, this coup d'etat was openly and unashamedly supported by the Obama administration. Not that this is the first country to have suffered the fate, nor has it certainly been the last if the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is any indicator.

Suffice to say I have a little bit of a problem when people want to sawmill about Latin-American refugee crises, and immigration, without the first apparent idea why these issues keep cropping up, nor the apparent intellectual curiosity (or honesty) to ask why and find out for themselves. God forbid we as Americans do anything but slap the smallest-possible band-aid on a problem and memory hole the entire affair, when the US is the cause of the problems to begin with.

Because,

...if we fixed the police...

We don't actually have a "police" problem. At least, not in this case. We have a "corrupt politician" and "corporation" problem. Yes, in both parties, especially in this case, because if there's one thing our media can be counted upon to never, ever report honestly, it's American geopolitical malfeasance in Latin America. The only thing more shameful than Obama's policies towards Latin America, and Latin-Americans, is Trump's, and unless that is confronted directly and honestly, this shit's going to keep happening just as it has for the past sixty years.

Because we wouldn't have goddamn kids in goddamn concentration camps right now if Obama had kept it in his pants over Honduras, and if people like you listened to people like me ten years ago instead of calling us concern trolls, and actually paid attention to the bullshit that was being pulled in your name. End of story.

tstorm823:
I agree, we shouldn't eliminate DACA and should even expand it in both the protections it offers and the people it's offered to. I agree, we shouldn't deport US veterans under any circumstances. I agree, we shouldn't deport religious minorities directly into religious persecution. But none of these things are connected to CBP detention centers. Actually, I take that back. I can imagine a situation where someone is deported unjustly and tries to sneak back into the US and ends up at a CBP detention center. But that wouldn't be normal, that's not a statistically significant thing if it's even happened at all. ICE picking up a DACA protected childhood arrival isn't burdening Border Patrol. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. You have perfectly valid grievances against Trump's immigration positions, but they aren't the topic at hand. The topic at hand is the initial claim that detention centers are "torture camps for children". And I can't agree to that. Firstly, because it's blatantly untrue. But more importantly because it's a sentiment that leads to calls for the elimination of CBP, an act that would lead to the tragic deaths of thousands of people.

This is important

And you're right. People being wrongly deported to Iraq isn't sending minors walking across the desert to the US. It's just that the US are putting them in harsher conditions while separating them from their families.

Mulligan Sep?lveda: "When I visited in February there were still around 1,800 kids or 2,000 kids, and it was just so crowded that you can't even imagine where they would possibly hold more kids, but now it's close to 3,000 people apparently. There were rooms with 144 bunk beds and when you walked by the bunk beds you could barely get by. They're just shoulder-length apart. They separate siblings. If one sibling is 17, and the other is 13, they separate them on other sides of the facility, and they only see each other once a week. At times, they've used solitary confinement. It's a really tough place to be. In one instance, it was a trans youth, and they said it was for her own protection. I believe it was 10 days. Isolation included 10 days not leaving a room without a window. There's a fine line between protection and suffering.

"I think we've seen from the beginning that the Trump administration has used mistreatment as a a form of deterrence, and when that's the main plan then things like overcrowding and incredibly unsanitary conditions, the idea is that that will get back to people fleeing their countries and trying to come here, and that will work as a sort of metaphorical wall. ... It becomes this awful game of chicken where the government's just making conditions worse and worse and not caring about it, and immigrants are still coming because the conditions in their home country that are pushing them here have not changed."

Associated Press: "Doctors will conduct health checks at facility with preemie" - "The teenage girl with pigtail braids was hunched over in a wheelchair and holding a bunched sweatshirt when an immigrant advocate met her at a crowded Border Patrol facility in Texas.

"She opened the sweatshirt and the advocate gasped. It was a tiny baby, born premature and held in detention instead of where the advocate believes the baby should have been - at a hospital neonatal unit.

"'You look at this baby and there is no question that this baby should be in a tube with a heart monitor,' said Hope Frye, a volunteer with an immigrant advocacy group who travels the country visiting immigration facilities with children to make sure the facilities comply with federal guidelines."

"Frye and other advocates said the case highlights the poor conditions immigrants are held in after crossing the U.S.-Mexico border as the government deals with an unprecedented number of families and children arriving daily. They announced Friday that doctors would be able to do health assessments at that facility starting Saturday."

The Trump administration is facing growing complaints from migrants about severe overcrowding, meager food and other hardships at border holding centers, with some people at an encampment in El Paso being forced to sleep on the bare ground during dust storms.

The Homeland Security Department's internal watchdog says rotting food, moldy and dilapidated bathrooms and agency practices at immigration detention facilities may violate detainees' rights.

"The Office of Inspector General made unannounced visits to four facilities in California, Louisiana, Colorado and New Jersey between May and November of last year, according to a report published Thursday. The facilities together house about 5,000 detainees.

"In an Adelanto, California detention facility, inspectors found nooses in detainee cells, the segregation of certain detainees in an overly restrictive way and inadequate medical care, the report said.

"It comes as the Trump administration is managing a worsening problem at the U.S.-Mexico border, with a dramatic increase in the number of Central American migrants. While most are families who cannot be easily returned to their home countries, the number of single adults is also on the rise. Immigration officials are detaining an increasing number of single adults - about 52,000 now - but are funded for only 45,000. The administration has asked for $4.5 billion more for additional bed space."

A year after immigrant advocates made US authorities aware of poor medical and mental health care at a Colorado detention facility, conditions have only gotten worse, according to a new complaint filed Tuesday.

"The new administrative complaint, obtained by BuzzFeed News, was submitted to Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Department of Homeland Security's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties and Office of Inspector General. It detailed stories of immigrant detainees who received inconsistent medication, suffered delayed medical care, and faced threats of punitive segregation following suicide attempts.

"The supplemental complaint follows a similar one the American Immigration Council and American Immigration Lawyers Association submitted in June 2018 on behalf of immigrants detained at the Denver Contract Detention Facility (DCDF) in Aurora, Colorado, who endured 'pain, serious injury, or the risk of death.'"

You don't need to eliminate anything to fix it. Again, our school system is messed up. But we need it. We overhaul it. Patch it before it breaks.

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

Call it Disney Land for all I care. It's detestable. Call it Heaven and it's detestable. And if it's the law? Then change the fucking law. Law is supposed to be for the betterment of humanity. This isn't it. To have throngs of people callous to this treatment of children and families because it's legal means America officially rescinds it's claim to "The Home of the Free".

And even laughable still, "The Home of the Brave".

Scarily enough, people don't see this is the same kind of blind 'adherence to laws' that allowed for Slavery because it was legal to treat people like that. Humane treatment should triumph over all. That was an American ideal that made me proud.

This isn't that place any more.

ObsidianJones:

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

No, that isn't true.

There are people on dusty floors. We'd like them to give more comfortable spaces, and we haven't. But we didn't rob them of comfort. We didn't order their joy taken away. We've just failed to help sufficiently. Failing to provide better accommodations is not putting people on dusty floors at the behest of the government.

There are people with little to eat. We'd like them to have more to eat. But we found them with nothing to eat. The failure to feed people more is not starving people at the behest of the government.

There are people who need medical attention. And through the detention centers, they will get that attention. Do you imagine if they weren't detained, there'd be a crowd of volunteer doctors waiting to give the kids check-ups and vaccines? No. And to characterize it as being in need of medical attention at the behest of the government is detestable. No, the US government didn't make these people need medical attention. Should we provide it for them? Yes, I believe so.

But they're in these circumstances at the behest of your government? No. No. Get that crap out of here. People are coming to this country for help. They are coming for refuge. And if we provide that insufficiently, that's a bad thing. But to act as though border patrol is the cause of the problems is completely and utterly insane. You are the people in the Incredibles who blamed the superheros for the damage done while saving people's lives.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

Look, let's break it down. The naming of this horrible situation we find ourselves in is squabbling over nothing. Nothing. In my country, there are babies on dusty floors with little to eat, who can't see their families, and who need medical help... at the behest of my 'Government'.

No, that isn't true.

There are people on dusty floors. We'd like them to give more comfortable spaces, and we haven't. But we didn't rob them of comfort. We didn't order their joy taken away. We've just failed to help sufficiently. Failing to provide better accommodations is not putting people on dusty floors at the behest of the government.

There are people with little to eat. We'd like them to have more to eat. But we found them with nothing to eat. The failure to feed people more is not starving people at the behest of the government.

There are people who need medical attention. And through the detention centers, they will get that attention. Do you imagine if they weren't detained, there'd be a crowd of volunteer doctors waiting to give the kids check-ups and vaccines? No. And to characterize it as being in need of medical attention at the behest of the government is detestable. No, the US government didn't make these people need medical attention. Should we provide it for them? Yes, I believe so.

But they're in these circumstances at the behest of your government? No. No. Get that crap out of here. People are coming to this country for help. They are coming for refuge. And if we provide that insufficiently, that's a bad thing. But to act as though border patrol is the cause of the problems is completely and utterly insane. You are the people in the Incredibles who blamed the superheros for the damage done while saving people's lives.

Here

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Eacaraxe:

Saelune:
We shouldn't fix problems cause other problems exist?

"We" shouldn't be pretending problems only exist when someone we don't like is in office, pretending only those problems exist, and only in the form most politically expedient.

For example, I'm sure you're aware the "refugee caravan(s)" originated in Honduras, people fleeing violence and economic breakdown. I'm sure you're equally aware the violence and economic breakdown were thanks to the coup which removed Zelaya from office. And I'd bet cold, hard cash you're aware Zelaya was removed from office for being yet another in a sixty-year-long ling of legitimately-elected, left-wing Latin-American politicians who tried to help their people by redistributing wealth from the hands of a small group of landed and moneyed elite, who can trace their history of elitism through US-backed fruit companies straight to the era of Spanish colonialism.

And of course, this coup d'etat was openly and unashamedly supported by the Obama administration. Not that this is the first country to have suffered the fate, nor has it certainly been the last if the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is any indicator.

Suffice to say I have a little bit of a problem when people want to sawmill about Latin-American refugee crises, and immigration, without the first apparent idea why these issues keep cropping up, nor the apparent intellectual curiosity (or honesty) to ask why and find out for themselves. God forbid we as Americans do anything but slap the smallest-possible band-aid on a problem and memory hole the entire affair, when the US is the cause of the problems to begin with.

Because,

...if we fixed the police...

We don't actually have a "police" problem. At least, not in this case. We have a "corrupt politician" and "corporation" problem. Yes, in both parties, especially in this case, because if there's one thing our media can be counted upon to never, ever report honestly, it's American geopolitical malfeasance in Latin America. The only thing more shameful than Obama's policies towards Latin America, and Latin-Americans, is Trump's, and unless that is confronted directly and honestly, this shit's going to keep happening just as it has for the past sixty years.

Because we wouldn't have goddamn kids in goddamn concentration camps right now if Obama had kept it in his pants over Honduras, and if people like you listened to people like me ten years ago instead of calling us concern trolls, and actually paid attention to the bullshit that was being pulled in your name. End of story.

Still sounds like you think we should not solve problems cause other problems exist.

Unlike Trump supporters, I don't condone evil just because of who does it.

Trump could be the hero who fixes Obama's problems. Instead he turns a backyard fire into a national park fire.

Basically all you are doing is going 'But Obama'.

ObsidianJones:

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

They are concentration camps. They are intentionally doing a bad job because they are racists who enjoy torturing children.

tstorm823:

ObsidianJones:

Call these doctors and observers up who have been to one of these facilities. Tell them that they are lying about reporting seeing children sleeping on floors. Tell them that they are lying about the children reporting to them that they can't even wash their hands. Tell them they are lying about everything.

Person A: Ghosts kill people by giving them cancer!
Person B: Ghosts aren't killing people with cancer.
Person A: Are you saying cancer isn't deadly?
Person B: No, I'm saying there's no such thing as ghosts.
Person A: Look at all this scientific research about how terrible cancer is! That should convince you!

That's what we're doing right now. You're giving me information about how bad the conditions are, I'm not contesting that the conditions are bad. I'm contesting why the conditions are bad. They are bad because the people charged with holding these children are overburdened and underfunded by a surge of border crossing they can't possibly handle. They aren't bad because the US government has decided to capture and torture migrant children.

I'm not saying those people are lying about the conditions. I'm saying your understanding of why the conditions are that way is way off base.

Are you being serious? The administration has openly stated that the purpose of these camps is to be a deterrent. They literally DID decide to make this policy. John Kelley literally was saying this out loud when he was in charge of this and still in the administration. They were arguing that they needed to be cruel as a warning. They've said this over and over awhile back and it's like no one remembers.

They have also refused any help, and funds are NOT being allocated for this. They could be, but they're not. There have been examples of facilities that are far from full, and instead of some of these people being sent there, they were sent to facilities that were already full. Medicine is being denied. Basic hygienic products are being denied. They went to COURT to argue they shouldn't have to supply them anything. That them sleeping on the concrete and being given nothing is clean n' safe n' whatnot. It's not that they don't have the capability, it's that THEY DON'T FUCKING WANT TO. The camps are run as inefficiently as possible, costing a stupid amount of money despite nothing being done. This whole crisis is manufactured. It's meant to be this way. Because, from the fucking start, it's supposed to be a warning. A deterrent. How the fuck could this deterrent be effective if it's not cruel?

lastjustice:
You haven't give back a single bit of logic than No you're wrong. Trump can be a raging asshole, but the difference is he actually denounces terrorists. (unlike the squad.)

Trump is quite a big supporter of Israel and Saudi Arabia who routinely commit acts of terrorism. He uses 'terrorism' as a rhetorical bludgeon.

The Squad's foreign policy views are quite a bit more defensible than Trump's.

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