[Politics] When Your Background matters more than Your Crime: NJ Judge goes easy on Rape Case

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CaitSeith:
Names please.

That comment provided one or more examples from personal experience; I don't think it's appropriate to name and shame such people in this sort of public forum without them having an opportunity to defend themselves (unless already public domain).

CaitSeith:

Lil devils x:

ObsidianJones:
I know I'm trying to put logic in a stupid situation, and I know you're participating in Gallows Humor, but could an 'Affluenza' defense even be attempted? I mean, he literally admitted to rape. That means he has the capability of understanding what rape was, and that he was actually committing it.

That whole stupid Affluenza defense is suggesting you're so removed from normal life that you can't have the capability of understanding laws that will never affect you, or something really stupid like that. He obviously knows the laws, he knows the difference between actual sex and rape... and he clearly defines what he's doing is not sex.

Like... could anyone be stupid enough to try that as a defense?

I'm sure they could. Plenty of people growing up in wealthy communities never had to face consequences for anything ever. Reminds me of a guy in my high school who wrecked his Ferrari in the school parking lot because he was distracted by a cheerleader's skirt flying up. His Dad went and got him a brand new Lamborghini the same day, he didn't even face consequences for wrecking his car, not even for a day. It is extremely common for the wealthy to never concern themselves with actually facing consequences for crimes every day. They steal from others, shoplift for thrills and their parents just make it disappear. They assault people, rape people, threaten people and their family just makes it seem like it never happened. They can buy whatever they want, why would this be any different in their eyes? Their mindset is at the core of it here, they actually do feel that the rest of the world is beneath them and does not apply because they are more often than not insulated from having to face consequences to any of their actions regardless.

Names please.

You going to hunt them down and make them pay? LOL! I was terrified to go anywhere with one of my classmates from school because she kept shoplifting everywhere we went, but she didn't care because she was too wealthy for her to actually go to jail for it. It sucked when I had to go to her house after school everyday to work on our presentation for speech class because she would always stop at the store and cram stuff down her shirt for shits and giggles and to "see the reaction on my face". These people are not hard to find, they exist everywhere you have wealthy suburbs. We were pulled over once leaving with her actually driving on the wrong side of the road and once they saw her license to see who she was they just told her "sorry for the inconvenience, have a good day ma'am'. You would have thought they just pulled over Ivanka Trump with how the cops tuned changed. It really is unreal how this actually works in their world vs everyone else's.

Agema:

CaitSeith:
Names please.

That comment provided one or more examples from personal experience; I don't think it's appropriate to name and shame such people in this sort of public forum without them having an opportunity to defend themselves (unless already public domain).

Considering I didn't film them or call the police at the time, naming and shaming wealthy only leads to them suing you to shut you up regardless. Hell even when you have proof and call the cops they still manipulate people into silence so it wouldn't matter anyways. It isn't like they would actually have to face consequences. Even when you are a complete monster like Jeffery Epstein, how long did he go before having to face consequences for anything ever and how severe were those consequences compared to his actual crimes? The wealthy get away with it because the system allows them to.

CaitSeith:

Lil devils x:

ObsidianJones:
I know I'm trying to put logic in a stupid situation, and I know you're participating in Gallows Humor, but could an 'Affluenza' defense even be attempted? I mean, he literally admitted to rape. That means he has the capability of understanding what rape was, and that he was actually committing it.

That whole stupid Affluenza defense is suggesting you're so removed from normal life that you can't have the capability of understanding laws that will never affect you, or something really stupid like that. He obviously knows the laws, he knows the difference between actual sex and rape... and he clearly defines what he's doing is not sex.

Like... could anyone be stupid enough to try that as a defense?

I'm sure they could. Plenty of people growing up in wealthy communities never had to face consequences for anything ever. Reminds me of a guy in my high school who wrecked his Ferrari in the school parking lot because he was distracted by a cheerleader's skirt flying up. His Dad went and got him a brand new Lamborghini the same day, he didn't even face consequences for wrecking his car, not even for a day. It is extremely common for the wealthy to never concern themselves with actually facing consequences for crimes every day. They steal from others, shoplift for thrills and their parents just make it disappear. They assault people, rape people, threaten people and their family just makes it seem like it never happened. They can buy whatever they want, why would this be any different in their eyes? Their mindset is at the core of it here, they actually do feel that the rest of the world is beneath them and does not apply because they are more often than not insulated from having to face consequences to any of their actions regardless.

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Paul

Steve

Ryan

Tim

how many names do you need?

(I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. You don't want the name of the kid Lil Devils is talking about, so it's not like you're fact checking their story. Do you just want names of rich people who don't suffer the same consequences as normal people? Are you looking for specific cases? Do you just want names of rich people? This is literally the silliest comment regarding the most luke warm take ever.)

Agema:

CaitSeith:

Lil devils x:
I'm sure they could. Plenty of people growing up in wealthy communities never had to face consequences for anything ever. Reminds me of a guy in my high school who wrecked his Ferrari in the school parking lot because he was distracted by a cheerleader's skirt flying up. His Dad went and got him a brand new Lamborghini the same day, he didn't even face consequences for wrecking his car, not even for a day. It is extremely common for the wealthy to never concern themselves with actually facing consequences for crimes every day. They steal from others, shoplift for thrills and their parents just make it disappear. They assault people, rape people, threaten people and their family just makes it seem like it never happened. They can buy whatever they want, why would this be any different in their eyes? Their mindset is at the core of it here, they actually do feel that the rest of the world is beneath them and does not apply because they are more often than not insulated from having to face consequences to any of their actions regardless.

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

That comment provided one or more examples from personal experience; I don't think it's appropriate to name and shame such people in this sort of public forum without them having an opportunity to defend themselves (unless already public domain).

I edited it to specify not to be the high-schooler's. If Affluenza is such a big deal, then lots of examples comparable to the OP's should be already public domain.

CaitSeith:

Agema:

CaitSeith:

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

That comment provided one or more examples from personal experience; I don't think it's appropriate to name and shame such people in this sort of public forum without them having an opportunity to defend themselves (unless already public domain).

I edited it to specify not to be the high-schooler's. If Affluenza is such a big deal, then lots of examples comparable to the OP's should be already public domain.

There are, what were the consequences compared to Jefferey Epstein's crimes, why was he enabled to do this for so long and why is it still so difficult to have him actually pay for his crimes like everyone else?

https://www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-terrell-analysis-20180922-story.html
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5156/99b3bacf2a82ff98522675ccb3ec0ea16d6d.pdf
https://nypost.com/2015/08/09/why-upper-class-big-spending-women-love-shoplifting/
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-bail-reform-20170816-story.html
https://www.thedailybeast.com/domestic-violence-among-the-wealthy-hides-behind-veil-of-silence
https://money.cnn.com/2015/12/09/news/shell-companies-crime/index.html
https://theweek.com/articles/454370/being-rich-now-getoutofjailfree-card

undeadsuitor:

CaitSeith:

Lil devils x:
I'm sure they could. Plenty of people growing up in wealthy communities never had to face consequences for anything ever. Reminds me of a guy in my high school who wrecked his Ferrari in the school parking lot because he was distracted by a cheerleader's skirt flying up. His Dad went and got him a brand new Lamborghini the same day, he didn't even face consequences for wrecking his car, not even for a day. It is extremely common for the wealthy to never concern themselves with actually facing consequences for crimes every day. They steal from others, shoplift for thrills and their parents just make it disappear. They assault people, rape people, threaten people and their family just makes it seem like it never happened. They can buy whatever they want, why would this be any different in their eyes? Their mindset is at the core of it here, they actually do feel that the rest of the world is beneath them and does not apply because they are more often than not insulated from having to face consequences to any of their actions regardless.

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Paul

Steve

Ryan

Tim

how many names do you need?

(I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. You don't want the name of the kid Lil Devils is talking about, so it's not like you're fact checking their story. Do you just want names of rich people who don't suffer the same consequences as normal people? Are you looking for specific cases? Do you just want names of rich people? This is literally the silliest comment regarding the most luke warm take ever.)

What I want is to be presented as real world beings and not the buggieman that Lil Devils phrased them as.

"You can find them anywhere". That's unhelpful and doesn't portray the scope of the problem in a tangible way.

Why am I doing this? Because I want nihilism and apathy to get out of the conversation!

CaitSeith:
Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Here we go. Wynnoa Ryder did it also, I think. It's a thing.

CaitSeith:

undeadsuitor:

CaitSeith:

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Paul

Steve

Ryan

Tim

how many names do you need?

(I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. You don't want the name of the kid Lil Devils is talking about, so it's not like you're fact checking their story. Do you just want names of rich people who don't suffer the same consequences as normal people? Are you looking for specific cases? Do you just want names of rich people? This is literally the silliest comment regarding the most luke warm take ever.)

What I want is to be presented as real world beings and not the buggieman that Lil Devils phrase them as.

"You can find them anywhere". That's unhelpful and doesn't portray the scope of the problem in a tangible way.

Why am I doing this? Because I want nihilism to get out of the conversation!

I just linked you more information on the topic above. I am not portraying them as "boogiemen". I went to school with them, I was friends with them, I even dated them ( the guy I mentioned above who wrecked his Ferrari I actually dated at one time). They are not "boogiemen" they are just spoiled rich kids and they pretty much exist everywhere there are rich kids. I am honestly surprised you did not realize this was extremely common already.

EDIT: I would also like to add that even when they have " consequences" they are not really consequences like other have to pay for them. For example, My friend who I played D&D with at his home all 4 years of high school lived in a mansion. His father was in prison for flying cocaine over the border, but even though his Dad was in prison for that, the money he made from doing so still made him an extremely wealthy man for the rest of his life and provided for his family for generations to come and they would never have to worry about finances or suffer. He is out of prison now and never has to worry about anything ever again. His family shifted the money around so it could not be confiscated and they got to keep it, which sadly is often the case. It isn't really a punishment for a crime if you still get to reap the benefits from doing so now is it?

EDIT2: Oh yea they do not even go to the same prison's as regular people when they do actually go to jail, they go to " white collar prisons".
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/what-its-like-at-the-prison-in-otisville-where-michael-cohen-may-go/ar-BBQSuER
or get house arrest in their mansions, Oh the horror of being forced to stay in a mansion for your crimes:
https://hub.wsu.edu/law-justice-realtime/2015/10/28/the-rich-white-mans-burden-house-arrest-in-a-mansion/

CaitSeith:

undeadsuitor:

CaitSeith:

Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Paul

Steve

Ryan

Tim

how many names do you need?

(I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this. You don't want the name of the kid Lil Devils is talking about, so it's not like you're fact checking their story. Do you just want names of rich people who don't suffer the same consequences as normal people? Are you looking for specific cases? Do you just want names of rich people? This is literally the silliest comment regarding the most luke warm take ever.)

What I want is to be presented as real world beings and not the buggieman that Lil Devils phrased them as.

"You can find them anywhere". That's unhelpful and doesn't portray the scope of the problem in a tangible way.

Why am I doing this? Because I want nihilism and apathy to get out of the conversation!

Who has any apathy?

Rich people don't operate on the same rules as normal people do and there's one solution

Eat the rich

ObsidianJones:

CaitSeith:
Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Here we go. Wynnoa Ryder did it also, I think. It's a thing.

Though to be fair, both of those people were actually charged and convicted and so didn't just get away with it (that doesn't make it okay, though in Worrall Thompson's case I think he's probably a bit mad -- a celebrity chef stealing cheese from Tesco?). Do you have Tesco in America? It's like a very slightly better Walmart (they don't let you shop in your pyjamas).

Baffle2:

ObsidianJones:

CaitSeith:
Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Here we go. Wynnoa Ryder did it also, I think. It's a thing.

Though to be fair, both of those people were actually charged and convicted and so didn't just get away with it (that doesn't make it okay, though in Worrall Thompson's case I think he's probably a bit mad -- a celebrity chef stealing cheese from Tesco?). Do you have Tesco in America? It's like a very slightly better Walmart (they don't let you shop in your pyjamas).

This guy I linked earlier wasn't.
https://www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-terrell-analysis-20180922-story.html
The reality is though if you are wealthy and influential enough, especially in well connected towns, you don't have to worry about much. They can get away with most, unless of course the press catches wind, but if you own the press or can influence them where you live, they will keep it quiet. Most of what happened in my community was silenced fairly quickly. The football team raping a girl in the parking lot and people walking by and not even caring? Not a peep from local press because those guys were all from "good families" and local heroes. The football team putting a trash bag over a kids head and kicking the crap of them sending him to the ER with broken ribs? *crickets*. They were sure to cover the local Christmas lights competition on the yachts and sailboats though for sure.

Hell Trump even managed to have the National Enquirer pay to squash his stories. That is how it works for many of the wealthy though.

Baffle2:

ObsidianJones:

CaitSeith:
Names please (preferably not the high-schooler's).

Here we go. Wynnoa Ryder did it also, I think. It's a thing.

Though to be fair, both of those people were actually charged and convicted and so didn't just get away with it (that doesn't make it okay, though in Worrall Thompson's case I think he's probably a bit mad -- a celebrity chef stealing cheese from Tesco?). Do you have Tesco in America? It's like a very slightly better Walmart (they don't let you shop in your pyjamas).

Wait, why does it matter if they are convinced? Aren't we showing that the Rich are shoplifting and doing as much crimes as the poor?

*re-reads*

Oh. Eh, I'm keeping it up anyway. But I should read closer next time.

Baffle2:
It's like a very slightly better Walmart (they don't let you shop in your pyjamas).

Am now insatiably curious as to whether this is something you've tested.

Neurotic Void Melody:

Am now insatiably curious as to whether this is something you've tested.

No, I don't own pyjamas. But a bunch of stores did ban people from shopping in them (apparently mostly parents doing the school run who couldn't find time to put trousers on).

Lil devils x:

This guy I linked earlier wasn't.
https://www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-terrell-analysis-20180922-story.html

I didn't read all the links, I just pick up the one about Wynnoa Ryder because I've been watching Stranger Things.

I don't doubt the rich get away with stuff all the time. I am, in fact, in full agreement that they do, but not with the fact that they do (i.e. they shouldn't).

Baffle2:
No, I don't own pyjamas. But a bunch of stores did ban people from shopping in them (apparently mostly parents doing the school run who couldn't find time to put trousers on).

Ah well. Neither do I, they too hot for sleeps, so am equally inhibited in the research department. Those dirty procreators! Tainting our grapes and tomatoes with merely a single-glazing of protective cloth!

Neurotic Void Melody:

Those dirty procreators! Tainting our grapes and tomatoes with merely a single-glazing of protective cloth!

I pretty sure most of them don't even have gloves in their pyjama suits. Perverts.

Lil devils x:
snip

Sorry. It was unfair of me to demand you specifics in such harsh manner.

This is an argument I would expect a defense attorney to make (and not one that shocks me). But it's not one that I would expect a judge to agree with. Especially not after the successful recall of Aaron Persky.

So is this it that he got no punishment or will he go on trial again but as a juvenile?

What would satisfy one's sense of justice anyway? Here he would've got a year of conditional discharge, a small fine, and would've had to pay about 5k to the girl.

McElroy:
What would satisfy one's sense of justice anyway?

Depends on the person and which judicial philosophy related to incarceration that they subscribe to. Looking at comment sections on other websites, it appears that a non insignificant number of people want to go Old Testament on anyone who does something like this.

CM156:

Depends on the person and which judicial philosophy related to incarceration that they subscribe to. Looking at comment sections on other websites, it appears that a non insignificant number of people want to go Old Testament on anyone who does something like this.

I find that Old Testament overreaction sort of attitude to be kind of... immature.

Revenge and punishment has some place in a justice system - the bloodlust of the masses requires some satiation - but there's an awful lot more that needs consideration.

Agema:

I find that Old Testament overreaction sort of attitude to be kind of... immature.

I wouldn't say "immature" so much as "primal" or "base." It appeals to part of our emotions that demand that blood be paid in blood.

Revenge and punishment has some place in a justice system - the bloodlust of the masses requires some satiation - but there's an awful lot more that needs consideration.

I agree that there's more that needs to come into consideration. The problem is, when dealing with the worst sorts of offenders, very few people are willing to take this into account. It's easier to just say "hang them and be done with it", which is both understandable and sad.

My old boss Colin molested his daughter, he got only 1 year suspended sentence and got his name suppressed, but everyone knows so at least his construction business has been blacklisted by a lot of people. We live in a city but it's really a town size so word gets around.

I normally love Australia for it's easier prison sentences than America but I wish pedos got longer. Guy is pretty wealthy too owning a small business, he had a lot of local churches defending him and trying to hush us like we'd go to a new church and he had them too. I dunno if he bribed them or they blackmailed tithe money out of him but they all defended him and gaslight my family for saying he wasn't a victim until Dad went off his head at a minister and they kicked us out of church and that was the start of me becoming atheist.

Fieldy409:

I dunno if he bribed them or they blackmailed tithe money out of him but they all defended him and gaslight my family for saying he wasn't a victim until Dad went off his head at a minister and they kicked us out of church and that was the start of me becoming atheist.

It's probably for the best; if someone were to ask me where I was most likely to find a paedophile I'd probably say the church (before consoles overtook video game arcades I would've said video game arcades).

Fieldy409:

I normally love Australia for it's easier prison sentences than America but I wish pedos got longer. Guy is pretty wealthy too owning a small business, he had a lot of local churches defending him and trying to hush us like we'd go to a new church and he had them too. I dunno if he bribed them or they blackmailed tithe money out of him but they all defended him and gaslight my family for saying he wasn't a victim until Dad went off his head at a minister and they kicked us out of church and that was the start of me becoming atheist.

I've heard of similar cases - one worse where the church minister knew of the abuse, and willingly helped protect the abuser, considering him to be a pillar of the community.

Churches, like any organisation or community, tend to protect their own. People considered in good standing by a church - particularly its ministers, people who do a lot of voluntary work for it, and charitable donors - are likely to be defended. In a sense you can see why: if someone at face value has done good things for another, that other will be inclined to view them favourably. This also extends to potentially giving them too much support when it turns out they have skeletons in the closet.

I normally love Australia for it's easier prison sentences than America but I wish pedos got longer.

It varies in severity like many things. Some may just people who unwisely got frisky with someone moderately underage (e.g. 14-15) but wouldn't make a habit of it. However, I think there certainly are deeply unpleasant and pathological paedophiles that can reasonably be locked away for a l-o-n-g time.

CM156:
I wouldn't say "immature" so much as "primal" or "base." It appeals to part of our emotions that demand that blood be paid in blood.

I hear you, but I think a major part of adulthood is not giving in to such primal urges - although I would give victims and those close to them much more leeway. But for your average internet denizen, some of these responses seem to me particularly childish: petty overreactions of frustration or disgust, often with fantasies of vengeful torment.

Agema:

I hear you, but I think a major part of adulthood is not giving in to such primal urges - although I would give victims and those close to them much more leeway. But for your average internet denizen, some of these responses seem to me particularly childish: petty overreactions of frustration or disgust, often with fantasies of vengeful torment.

Yeah I think its not a good mindset how everyone wants to kill pedos and delight in talking about torturing them. I have no proof of this, but I have a theory that pedo's might be more likely to seek help if they didn't feel like everyone wanted to murder them.

I mean if a person has not raped a child yet, if they had I hate them too, but imagine you were personally attracted to kids, would you say anything? Fuck no everyone talks in detail about how they want to brutally torture the pedos to death it would be terrifying. And without seeking help your pedophile urgings might get worse when maybe a bit of therapy could have helped make you more normal and harmless.

But I really do want pedophiles who have crossed the line gone for a long time or maybe forever and kept away from children of course.

Fieldy409:

Agema:

I hear you, but I think a major part of adulthood is not giving in to such primal urges - although I would give victims and those close to them much more leeway. But for your average internet denizen, some of these responses seem to me particularly childish: petty overreactions of frustration or disgust, often with fantasies of vengeful torment.

Yeah I think its not a good mindset how everyone wants to kill pedos and delight in talking about torturing them. I have no proof of this, but I have a theory that pedo's might be more likely to seek help if they didn't feel like everyone wanted to murder them.

I mean if a person has not raped a child yet, if they had I hate them too, but imagine you were personally attracted to kids, would you say anything? Fuck no everyone talks in detail about how they want to brutally torture the pedos to death it would be terrifying. And without seeking help your pedophile urgings might get worse when maybe a bit of therapy could have helped make you more normal and harmless.

But I really do want pedophiles who have crossed the line gone for a long time or maybe forever and kept away from children of course.

I think the lack of actual mental health services and rehabilitation made available is a strong deterrent for someone seeking help with their issues as well as and extremely broken and corrupt justice system in the US makes this worse, rather than better. Extremely violent predators are given access to victims to torture, abuse and kill while in prison in addition to having corrupt and abusive people working there resulting in making it a harmful environment to everyone involved. They fail miserably at rehabilitation and many come out worse than when they went in because they instead foster a system of abuse. Often the people " guarding" the prisoners are just as abusive as the prisoners themselves and likely should be in prison rather than guarding them due to their own actions. The US mental hospitals are often just s abusive and frightening. The people attracted to working these positions are often predators themselves, so in reality, there is often no one for those seeking actual help existing in their area that will actually provide the help they need.

Fieldy409:
...but I have a theory that pedo's might be more likely to seek help if they didn't feel like everyone wanted to murder them.

I'm sure some of them do, and I suspect social isolation is likely to make them less likely to function well in society. On the other hand, I'm equally sure some of them don't want help, and are well beyond therapy.

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