[politics] Neo Nazi's trying to sell Air to Air missle on WhatsApp?!

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Seriously.. First of all how did they get this missile and second, selling these sorts of things is apparently a " thing" on WhatsApp?!

Italian Police Seize Air-to-Air Missile, Dozens of Firearms in Raids on Neo-Nazis

The Italian General Investigations and Special Operations Division (DIGOS) seized an arsenal of weaponry ranging from bolt-action rifles and automatic weapons to a "combat-ready" air-to-air missile from a neo-Nazi group in a series of raids supported by police in Milan, Varese, Forli and Novara, the BBC reported on Monday.

In a statement to the BBC, police described the missile as "in perfect working order." According to the Drive, the missile is a French-made, semi-active radar-seeking Matra Super 530F, contained within a casing that identifies it as purchased by the Qatar Armed Forces in 1980. That year the Qatari government purchased 14 Dassault Mirage F1 fighter jets from France with armaments, though Qatar's F1s have largely been superseded in active service by Mirage 2000 jets that fire the newer MICA missiles, the Drive wrote.

According to Reuters, police said the neo-Nazis were communicating with possible customers via WhatsApp. Forza Nuova has denied any involvement in the arms-dealing plot or having current ties with the three suspects.

image

https://gizmodo.com/italian-police-seize-air-to-air-missile-dozens-of-fire-1836396339

Gun Sellers Are Advertising on Instagram and Directing Customers to Encrypted Chat Apps

Users on Instagram are advertising guns for sale despite the social network banning trade of weapons between individuals since 2016, according to a review of Instagram accounts.
Some Instagram accounts make clear in their bios and posts that they are interested in selling guns, but direct users away from the app and instead encourage them to use more secure communication methods to carry out a transaction. Motherboard has also obtained an internal document from Facebook, which owns Instagram, giving a more detailed understanding of what specific firearms related items it bans.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vb94pb/gun-sellers-instagram-encrypted-messaging-apps

Facebook provides a home for illegal arms sales in Libya

Social media networks are providing a new avenue for the trade of illegal arms in Libya and Middle Eastern countries. Weapons like AK-47s and truck-mounted machine guns are being sold via sites including Facebook, WhatsApp, and Telegram, according to reports this week from BBC News and The New York Times. These reports are based on data collected by the specialist consultancy Armament Research Services (ARES) and commissioned by the Geneva-based Small Arms Survey. The researchers involved in the study call for more scrutiny of these channels.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/8/11391928/facebook-libya-illegal-weapons-market-whatsapp-telegram

So even though this is technically banned people are still using mainstream social media to traffic arms apparently. If these Neo Nazis were able to get their hands on an air to air missile, what else is out there in the hands of people who should be no where near them? Like we really need these things just out there to be bought, stolen and used by anyone.

How did they get an air to air missile and who would want to illegally buy that? I presume you'd need an aircraft to make use of it and those are hard to hide. Or would somebody just strip it for spare parts or something?

Pseudonym:
How did they get an air to air missile and who would want to illegally buy that? I presume you'd need an aircraft to make use of it and those are hard to hide. Or would somebody just strip it for spare parts or something?

I think only specific aircraft can fire it, though am not sure if it could be rigged to make some sort of terrorist bomb or something. Either way, the fact they had it at all is extremely disturbing to begin with. Yea I too would like to know how the hell they managed to obtain it in the first place, and if it was sold to them by someone in Qatar ( due to the Qatar markings) how did they get it into Italy? All of this just sounds so bizarre.

So, what were they even going to use it against?

That aside, shit.

Could you imagine if it was antifa found doing this? We'd never hear the end of it from pearl-clutching cons. But par for the course with neo-nazi ideology. Albeit more brazen than ever.

Lil devils x:

So even though this is technically banned people are still using mainstream social media to traffic arms apparently. If these Neo Nazis were able to get their hands on an air to air missile, what else is out there in the hands of people who should be no where near them? Like we really need these things just out there to be bought, stolen and used by anyone.

Libya is still kinda in a low intensity civil war. At least Saudi Arabia and Turkey are supporting different factions strongly and shipping weapons there. It is possible but far from certain that Qatar does the same. But both Tukey and Saudi Arabia use a lot of weapons made by different Nato members for their forces and are prohibited from giving them away to some warlords. That is why most of this stuff is channeled through organized crime.

As for the social media aspect, well, Libya is not in a situation to have a gouvernment control social media, they don't even have a gouvernment that can control a third of tits official land mass. Also social media played a huge part in making the democratic revolutions of the Arab spring possible in the first place. The idea that a gouvernment that came to power via Twitter and Facebook would start to censor it now... well, it would cost them dearly in popularity if they could do it at all.

The air-to-air missile specifically ? Probably only landed on the black market because there was a possibility to steal one. To use it properly you would need an air force. And it should be way to expensive for improper use if sold for anything near the market value. Seems like the Nazi just wanted to act as fence.

There is a lot of weapon smuggling going on on the Mediterranean. Because of all the warlike situations with lots of irregular forces.

Satinavian:

Lil devils x:

So even though this is technically banned people are still using mainstream social media to traffic arms apparently. If these Neo Nazis were able to get their hands on an air to air missile, what else is out there in the hands of people who should be no where near them? Like we really need these things just out there to be bought, stolen and used by anyone.

Libya is still kinda in a low intensity civil war. At least Saudi Arabia and Turkey are supporting different factions strongly and shipping weapons there. It is possible but far from certain that Qatar does the same. But both Tukey and Saudi Arabia use a lot of weapons made by different Nato members for their forces and are prohibited from giving them away to some warlords. That is why most of this stuff is channeled through organized crime.

As for the social media aspect, well, Libya is not in a situation to have a gouvernment control social media, they don't even have a gouvernment that can control a third of tits official land mass. Also social media played a huge part in making the democratic revolutions of the Arab spring possible in the first place. The idea that a gouvernment that came to power via Twitter and Facebook would start to censor it now... well, it would cost them dearly in popularity if they could do it at all.

The air-to-air missile specifically ? Probably only landed on the black market because there was a possibility to steal one. To use it properly you would need an air force. And it should be way to expensive for improper use if sold for anything near the market value. Seems like the Nazi just wanted to act as fence.

There is a lot of weapon smuggling going on on the Mediterranean. Because of all the warlike situations with lots of irregular forces.

I thought social media controlled social media rather than the government, so it is up to Facebook to police what is on Facebook and WhatsApp to police what is on WhatsApp rather than needing the government to step in. This sort of thing should be flagged somehow right? Of course I am sure they use burner accounts, but wouldn't the social media apps have a way to block certain hashtags or search terms and flag it somehow in the system? Yes, I know they really suck at policing any of their apps, but I would think there would be some way to have this sort of thing autoflagged and shut down fairly quickly even if there is no functioning government in the region.

Since they were able to get it into Italy, how difficult would it be for them to move it through into other EU nations? I am just wondering how frequently arms trafficking is caught doing something like this. I mean not necessarily an air to air missile, as this in itself seems odd to begin with, but other types of arms say rocket launchers, firearms, grenades and such.

Lil devils x:
I think only specific aircraft can fire it, though am not sure if it could be rigged to make some sort of terrorist bomb or something.

Semi-active radar means it needs an active radar attached to something else (normally the plane firing it) to work. You could make it into a bomb, but you'd be able to get yourself a normal IED much easier and cheaper and work just as well.

Lil devils x:
Either way, the fact they had it at all is extremely disturbing to begin with. Yea I too would like to know how the hell they managed to obtain it in the first place, and if it was sold to them by someone in Qatar ( due to the Qatar markings) how did they get it into Italy? All of this just sounds so bizarre.

This.

Satinavian:
they don't even have a gouvernment that can control a third of tits official land mass.

Only Mars has third tits

Also, I thought the Libyan Army was the de facto government and the rebels made their own thing in the capital

Edit: Or you probably mean that's the government West recognises

Well, as Sir Humphrey once wisely said "If you sell arms, they well inevitably end up in the hands of those with the capacity to buy them" or words to that effect. Although for some reason the use of WhatsApp sort of kills some of the mystique being a freelance arms dealer once had. Now its just like running the least ethical division of Amazon Prime.

trunkage:

Satinavian:
they don't even have a gouvernment that can control a third of tits official land mass.

Only Mars has third tits

Also, I thought the Libyan Army was the de facto government and the rebels made their own thing in the capital

Edit: Or you probably mean that's the government West recognises

A significant part of it is sparsely populated desert no one actually controls. The two main factions sit in the population centers at the coast, while smaller groups sometimes pop up elsewhere. Neither one controlls a third of Libyas area. Population is a different story.

Lil devils x:
Since they were able to get it into Italy, how difficult would it be for them to move it through into other EU nations? I am just wondering how frequently arms trafficking is caught doing something like this. I mean not necessarily an air to air missile, as this in itself seems odd to begin with, but other types of arms say rocket launchers, firearms, grenades and such.

It would be pretty easy to move it around in the EU as there are no interior border controls. But why should they? Potential buyers are most likely not in the EU anyway and Italy has lots of ports and still a problem with organized crime.

There are controlls at the EU outer border, but i have no deeper knowledge how effective those are in practice. Trafficker of weapons inside the EU usually get caught when they try to aquire/sell this stuff or when there are police raids for unrelated things, not when they move the weapons.

Ok then. I thought this would be some kind of man-portable missile like a Stinger, but no, that's fucking air-launched ordinance.

Like, what in the actual flying fuck?

Neurotic Void Melody:
Could you imagine if it was antifa found doing this? We'd never hear the end of it from pearl-clutching cons. But par for the course with neo-nazi ideology. Albeit more brazen than ever.

But it wasn't antifa; and unless the way that would stop antifa works with neo-nazis, you better stop daydreaming about it and bring up some solutions to reality.

Not gonna lie. If I had the funds, I'd buy one of those just to flex.

But seriously though. If they managed to actually get that thing sold how the fuck was the buyer gonna transport that thing? And if you have a military organized enough to have a plane to strap that to, why not a legit arms trader?

Oh, Nazis are bad? Who knew?

Oh wait, me. I did.

Shadowstar38:
And if you have a military organized enough to have a plane to strap that to, why not a legit arms trader?

Lots of places have fairly well equipped militaries, but find it hard to buy stuff. Iran, for example, got lots of gear from the US, who then decided nobody should sell them anything more (to over-simplify).

I'm starting to feel more and more like the general from Mars Attacks. There's an increasingly militarized threat that has proven again and again that is wants to and will kill everything in its way and all the higher ups keep giving them second chances and acting as if it's all just some misunderstanding. A conservative politician here in Germany was shot by a neo nazi just a few weeks ago and only days later we had our former president talking about how we need to be more tolerant towards the right. It's a farce.

PsychedelicDiamond:
I'm starting to feel more and more like the general from Mars Attacks. There's an increasingly militarized threat that has proven again and again that is wants to and will kill everything in its way and all the higher ups keep giving them second chances and acting as if it's all just some misunderstanding. A conservative politician here in Germany was shot by a neo nazi just a few weeks ago and only days later we had our former president talking about how we need to be more tolerant towards the right. It's a farce.

But its only the Nazis who get the second chances too. Its only the racists who get the 'benefit of the doubt', its only the rapists who 'shouldn't have their lives ruined over a mistake'.

Thaluikhain:

Shadowstar38:
And if you have a military organized enough to have a plane to strap that to, why not a legit arms trader?

Lots of places have fairly well equipped militaries, but find it hard to buy stuff. Iran, for example, got lots of gear from the US, who then decided nobody should sell them anything more (to over-simplify).

Foreign policy can be an outright fickle mess

The second most odd thing being sold recently, after those bottles of used gamer girl bath water.

CaitSeith:
But it wasn't antifa; and unless the way that would stop antifa works with neo-nazis, you better stop daydreaming about it and bring up some solutions to reality.

Am confused. Looks like you're addressing intentions that aren't there. What was it you thought I was trying to imply? Maybe my wording was badly thought out. It often is.

Its a strange dichotomy that these people were simultaneously canny enough to get their hands on ordnance like this, but also dumb enough to try and sell it over WhatsApp. I feel there are more secure places to sell your illegal missiles dudes

Palindromemordnilap:
Its a strange dichotomy that these people were simultaneously canny enough to get their hands on ordnance like this, but also dumb enough to try and sell it over WhatsApp. I feel there are more secure places to sell your illegal missiles dudes

Which is the legitimate problem.

You can't sneak into a military site with falsified documents, manufacture any kind of tally list that will fool people long enough to know that a missile should be moved off-site or there always has been one less to begin with, sneak the thing off of a base... and then be this stupid... it doesn't add up.

At best, the base they got it from is so woefully staffed that we're lucky that the people who did steal from them are as stupid as the base staff.

At worst... they have sympathizers in that military's rank who think so much for their cause that they are willing to risk whatever punishment their military will do to them in order to give such a substantial weapon to their true Front Line.

Now we get to play the uber fun game of which idea is scarier.

Pseudonym:
How did they get an air to air missile and who would want to illegally buy that? I presume you'd need an aircraft to make use of it and those are hard to hide. Or would somebody just strip it for spare parts or something?

You'd be surprised what people can do with tech.

This isn't an exact, apples-to-apples comparison, but people are quite ingenious at making things work, especially Libyan rebels:
DIY Weapons of the Libyan Rebels (2011).

I'm super relieved it wasn't a MANPAD. Also, the weapons the nazis were caught with; I've never seen a more varied, random collection of weapons. Bolt actions and Steyr TMP pistols? The randomness of the weapons is somewhat telling. Not sure what to think of it.

Is it a Soviet or Eastern Bloc missile, because that explain how they easily got it. When the Soviet Union basically disintegrated along with the Eastern Bloc a lot of the weapons were lost during that clusterfuck of a transition.

Dreiko:
The second most odd thing being sold recently, after those bottles of used gamer girl bath water.

That's a nope from me

ObsidianJones:

Palindromemordnilap:
Its a strange dichotomy that these people were simultaneously canny enough to get their hands on ordnance like this, but also dumb enough to try and sell it over WhatsApp. I feel there are more secure places to sell your illegal missiles dudes

Which is the legitimate problem.

You can't sneak into a military site with falsified documents, manufacture any kind of tally list that will fool people long enough to know that a missile should be moved off-site or there always has been one less to begin with, sneak the thing off of a base... and then be this stupid... it doesn't add up.

At best, the base they got it from is so woefully staffed that we're lucky that the people who did steal from them are as stupid as the base staff.

At worst... they have sympathizers in that military's rank who think so much for their cause that they are willing to risk whatever punishment their military will do to them in order to give such a substantial weapon to their true Front Line.

Now we get to play the uber fun game of which idea is scarier.

You'd be surprised by the amount of incompetence militaries have.

There's an interesting John Oliver video about the US military's nuclear weapons and the amount of times we've accidentally misplaced missiles or left them unguarded, or almost detonated them. I doubt the US military is significantly more incompetent than any other military, and I doubt that the military is any more careful with conventional weapons as it is with nuclear ones.

Since this missile came from Qatar I really wouldn't be surprised if some base personnel were just bribed into letting the missile be "misplaced."

That scene almost looks surreal. What previous poster mentioned sounds like a good theory; it are probably the criminal networks that states use to covertly support one warlord over the other to deny involvement. They seem like the only ones capable to not only procure but also smuggle a missile, and it's not that far fetched neo nazi's might have a liaison in such a network. But once you have it what are you going to do with it right? Sell through WhatsApp. xD

tf2godz:
Is it a Soviet or Eastern Bloc missile, because that explain how they easily got it. When the Soviet Union basically disintegrated along with the Eastern Bloc a lot of the weapons were lost during that clusterfuck of a transition.

Nope. French-made missile intended for a French-made plane.

trunkage:

Dreiko:
The second most odd thing being sold recently, after those bottles of used gamer girl bath water.

That's a nope from me

Doesn't matter, she sold out really fast apparently lol.

Chimpzy:

tf2godz:
Is it a Soviet or Eastern Bloc missile, because that explain how they easily got it. When the Soviet Union basically disintegrated along with the Eastern Bloc a lot of the weapons were lost during that clusterfuck of a transition.

Nope. French-made missile intended for a French-made plane.

Yeah, French anti-tank missiles have also been found on a pro-Haftar base in Libya(country has been embroiled in conflict between this general and current leader Sarraj) that France has denied as it would breach the UN arms embargo. They said they only provided 'diplomatic support' but this is hard to believe as they also carried out airstrikes for Haftar. LNA/Haftar occupies almost all of Libya now despite never having had any kind of 'official' military support.

But yeah, it's not hard to believe that one of these missiles have been siphoned off to a lucrative smuggle network.

Pseudonym:
How did they get an air to air missile and who would want to illegally buy that? I presume you'd need an aircraft to make use of it and those are hard to hide. Or would somebody just strip it for spare parts or something?

I'm sure with a bit of technical know-how you could strip out the explosive and rig it as an improvised device.

* * *

Dirty Hipsters:
You'd be surprised by the amount of incompetence militaries have.

I totally wouldn't.

But they don't even need to be incompetent, as such, just baseline adequate. Stuff "falling off the back of a lorry" is hardly rare for a start. You imagine a military warehouse with god knows how much sitting in boxes, I seriously doubt a few corrupt servicemen would need to be criminal masterminds to liberate one. Nobody would probably even notice for months or years, and it'd probably be dismissed as a logistical error. Misappropriation of military equipment - including arms - is as old and well established as the military.

Frezzato:

Pseudonym:
How did they get an air to air missile and who would want to illegally buy that? I presume you'd need an aircraft to make use of it and those are hard to hide. Or would somebody just strip it for spare parts or something?

You'd be surprised what people can do with tech.

This isn't an exact, apples-to-apples comparison, but people are quite ingenious at making things work, especially Libyan rebels:
DIY Weapons of the Libyan Rebels (2011).

Not really. Sure, they can stick rocket pods on things, but you need the radar system to go with the missile, or there's no point.

As an aside, people have been doing those (Libyan) kinds of things for ages, during the Falklands the Argentinians set up a rocket pod on a child's slide in a playground, Tony Stein in WW2 got a Medal of Honor for fighting he did with a machine gun he'd taken from a wrecked plane and modified.

Agema:
Misappropriation of military equipment - including arms - is as old and well established as the military.

Small arms, maybe, espescially after a period of disorder(like in the Balkans). But a French air-to-air missile definitely doesn't go unaccounted for b/c of some lack of oversight or corruption. Most definitely this ended up in the wrong hands b/c of proxy conflict where state actors need to hide some plausible deniability.

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