The odds of serious injury or death for female car crash victims is 73 percent higher than for males

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For years, it has been reported that women are significantly more likely to be injured in car crashes than men-Jezebel wrote about the phenomenon back in 2011, when it appeared that seat belts were to blame. Most of the women harmed were, to quote USA Today nearly a decade ago, of "relatively short stature," and "preferred seating posture and a combination of factors yielding lower safety protection from the standard restraint devices." Cool, cool: seat belts weren't designed with women in mind.
A new study from the University of Virginia suggests that, not only is the discrepancy still true, the crash test dummies commonly used to test vehicle safety runs are also at fault. Presumably, that's because manufactures make very little effort to represent the bulk of human women when designing them.

As City Lab reports, "the odds of serious injury or death for female car-crash victims is 73 percent higher than for males," which could have something to do with the fact that "average male" type dummies are most frequently used in crucial safety testing. When "woman-type" dummy was introduced in 2003, it was, and still is, only 5 feet tall, and weighs 110 pounds, just a touch outside the dimensions of your average woman.

Jason Forman, one of the scientists conducting the University of Virginia study, told City Lab, "We obviously know a lot of ways that men and women are different bio-mechanically. These differences [fat distribution, pelvis shape]... have the potential to change the ways that seatbelts interact with the body and with our underlying skeletal structures." He added that the work to take this information and actually apply it to real-life safety measures "just simply has not been done yet."

https://jezebel.com/women-are-dying-in-car-accidents-because-the-only-femal-1836527298

So yea, women make up half the population, but automotive makers still haven't bothered to make them safe for women. Seatbelts, even when not in an accident leave marks and have even cut my neck due to where they rest on my body and I have had to disable my airbags due to my height putting me at risk of decapitation. I have to have my seat pulled up to the lowest setting to even reach the brake and gas, and there are still plenty of women shorter than I am. Cars are obviously not designed for women and you would think by now they would have started to work on that as there are plenty of women buying and riding in cars these days, but apparently it still is not a priority to automakers as they have not yet bothered.

Ok so, this really brings alot of questions of regionality. Like, many car companies are Japanese, and Japanese men are well, typically shorter, smaller people. Now, I wonder though, for one, where was this data taken from? World-wide, or just US? How are international car companies run country to country? I guess there are probably factories in the Americas that build the cars, rather than shipping them directly from Japan.

How are safety tests done? Does the US do ones independant from Japan?

Ofcourse, is there a difference between the different automakers? Like, are Japanese cars better for women than German or American cars? Or are they perhaps Americanized for us?

I dont know shit about any of this, these are all just thoughts and questions I have on this.

Saelune:
Ok so, this really brings alot of questions of regionality. Like, many car companies are Japanese, and Japanese men are well, typically shorter, smaller people. Now, I wonder though, for one, where was this data taken from? World-wide, or just US? How are international car companies run country to country? I guess there are probably factories in the Americas that build the cars, rather than shipping them directly from Japan.

How are safety tests done? Does the US do ones independant from Japan?

Ofcourse, is there a difference between the different automakers? Like, are Japanese cars better for women than German or American cars? Or are they perhaps Americanized for us?

I dont know shit about any of this, these are all just thoughts and questions I have on this.

There are so many other factors though when needing test dummies for women vs men, not just their height. The skeletal structures and fat distribution are not the same, and women's prenatal and postnatal bodies are often drastically different. They really need to have extremely accurate and varied body representations to be able to determine the impact that an accident will actually have on women's bodies to be able to determine the dangers represented by their designs and they are not even attempting to do that at this point. Honestly, I don't think the way seat belts are designed are a good fit for women at all and they would likely need a new design all together as they do not account for breasts, womb and the shape of the pelvis in the first place. They are not just uncomfortable, but actually dangerous to women. Of course we should wear them until they have an alternative as flying through a windshield is still worse, but that does not mean they are actually safe for us to do so.

The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

stroopwafel:
The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

There is a difference between being " uncomfortable" and dangerous. People have actually been decapitated by their seatbelt due to the actual design. There is a reason you wear a safety harness instead of a seatbelt in racecars as the seatbelt was proven inadequate.
The seatbelt on me is not just uncomfortable it cuts into my neck to the point of actually makes me bleed, and leave a permanent mark on my neck, in an accident that would be far worse. I disagree that they could not better design cars to fit more body types and make adjustable a nd offer customizable options to make them safer. My father designed and built my car to his custom specifications along with all my brother's and sisters cars, you are making this out to be way more difficult than it actually is. With as much as we pay for cars, and their many customizable options, they should not have much of an issue offering something more substantial than just cupholders and custom seats, we should have more vehicles equipped with more options for safety features that actually matter. We already have cars with more adjustable seatbelt options, we just need to take this further and actually design features using different sexes and body types and make those options fit those individuals better. It isn't like it is difficult to change out seatbelts and seats easily, we already do this to give men more options in their seat design, this should be happening with seats and seatbelts designed from the ground up for women as well.

I think you do not realize how customizable cars already are, but I grew up in a family where my dad was designing, building and racing prostock cars, so I don't see things to be as rigid as that. When my dad wanted the car to be 5 inches shorter, he made a new frame so it would be shorter.. That is just how these things are done. Cars may be safer than ever for people they are designed to be safer for, but that does not mean they are necessarily safer for everyone else. It is time we change that. Car safety standards are ever evolving, this should just be their next evolution.

Lil devils x:

stroopwafel:
The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

There is a difference between being " uncomfortable" and dangerous. People have actually been decapitated by their seatbelt due to the actual design. There is a reason you wear a safety harness instead of a seatbelt in racecars as the seatbelt was proven inadequate.
The seatbelt on me is not just uncomfortable it cuts into my neck to the point of actually makes me bleed, and leave a permanent mark on my neck, in an accident that would be far worse. I disagree that they could not better design cars to fit more body types and make adjustable a nd offer customizable options to make them safer. My father designed and built my car to his custom specifications along with all my brother's and sisters cars, you are making this out to be way more difficult than it actually is. With as much as we pay for cars, and their many customizable options, they should not have much of an issue offering something more substantial than just cupholders and custom seats, we should have more vehicles equipped with more options for safety features that actually matter. We already have cars with more adjustable seatbelt options, we just need to take this further and actually design features using different sexes and body types and make those options fit those individuals better. It isn't like it is difficult to change out seatbelts and seats easily, we already do this to give men more options in their seat design, this should be happening with seats and seatbelts designed from the ground up for women as well.

I think you do not realize how customizable cars already are, but I grew up in a family where my dad was designing, building and racing prostock cars, so I don't see things to be as rigid as that. When my dad wanted the car to be 5 inches shorter, he made a new frame so it would be shorter.. That is just how these things are done.

No doubt a seatbelt is inadequate for racing cars- because they are high performance vehicles that intentionally push the limits of speed and performance because of the nature of whatever sport they're operating in. Seatbelts chafe my neck badly too. That's why I... don't let them touch my neck? I'm not disputing that you have good points about the customisability of current safety features in cars, but if you're actually letting that seatbelt rest against the skin on your neck in the first place you're just asking for trouble. It should never ever be touching the neck, just like a scalding seatbelt clip that's been in the sun all afternoon has no business touching your flesh anywhere.

Squilookle:

Lil devils x:

stroopwafel:
The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

There is a difference between being " uncomfortable" and dangerous. People have actually been decapitated by their seatbelt due to the actual design. There is a reason you wear a safety harness instead of a seatbelt in racecars as the seatbelt was proven inadequate.
The seatbelt on me is not just uncomfortable it cuts into my neck to the point of actually makes me bleed, and leave a permanent mark on my neck, in an accident that would be far worse. I disagree that they could not better design cars to fit more body types and make adjustable a nd offer customizable options to make them safer. My father designed and built my car to his custom specifications along with all my brother's and sisters cars, you are making this out to be way more difficult than it actually is. With as much as we pay for cars, and their many customizable options, they should not have much of an issue offering something more substantial than just cupholders and custom seats, we should have more vehicles equipped with more options for safety features that actually matter. We already have cars with more adjustable seatbelt options, we just need to take this further and actually design features using different sexes and body types and make those options fit those individuals better. It isn't like it is difficult to change out seatbelts and seats easily, we already do this to give men more options in their seat design, this should be happening with seats and seatbelts designed from the ground up for women as well.

I think you do not realize how customizable cars already are, but I grew up in a family where my dad was designing, building and racing prostock cars, so I don't see things to be as rigid as that. When my dad wanted the car to be 5 inches shorter, he made a new frame so it would be shorter.. That is just how these things are done.

No doubt a seatbelt is inadequate for racing cars- because they are high performance vehicles that intentionally push the limits of speed and performance because of the nature of whatever sport they're operating in. Seatbelts chafe my neck badly too. That's why I... don't let them touch my neck? I'm not disputing that you have good points about the customisability of current safety features in cars, but if you're actually letting that seatbelt rest against the skin on your neck in the first place you're just asking for trouble. It should never ever be touching the neck, just like a scalding seatbelt clip that's been in the sun all afternoon has no business touching your flesh anywhere.

The problem of course is due to my height, breasts, and shoulder width, I can't keep the seatbelt off of my neck. Whether I am the driver or a passenger, it always finds it's way back to my neck. I have gone as far as folding a sweater and cramming it in there to keep it from happening, as ridiculous as that looked, but it isn't like that is necessarily safe either. No matter where I try and put it my breasts keep forcing it back up against my neck regardless.

Lil devils x:

stroopwafel:
The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

There is a difference between being " uncomfortable" and dangerous. People have actually been decapitated by their seatbelt due to the actual design. There is a reason you wear a safety harness instead of a seatbelt in racecars as the seatbelt was proven inadequate.
The seatbelt on me is not just uncomfortable it cuts into my neck to the point of actually makes me bleed, and leave a permanent mark on my neck, in an accident that would be far worse. I disagree that they could not better design cars to fit more body types and make adjustable a nd offer customizable options to make them safer. My father designed and built my car to his custom specifications along with all my brother's and sisters cars, you are making this out to be way more difficult than it actually is. With as much as we pay for cars, and their many customizable options, they should not have much of an issue offering something more substantial than just cupholders and custom seats, we should have more vehicles equipped with more options for safety features that actually matter. We already have cars with more adjustable seatbelt options, we just need to take this further and actually design features using different sexes and body types and make those options fit those individuals better. It isn't like it is difficult to change out seatbelts and seats easily, we already do this to give men more options in their seat design, this should be happening with seats and seatbelts designed from the ground up for women as well.

I think you do not realize how customizable cars already are, but I grew up in a family where my dad was designing, building and racing prostock cars, so I don't see things to be as rigid as that. When my dad wanted the car to be 5 inches shorter, he made a new frame so it would be shorter.. That is just how these things are done. Cars may be safer than ever for people they are designed to be safer for, but that does not mean they are necessarily safer for everyone else. It is time we change that. Car safety standards are ever evolving, this should just be their next evolution.

Well yeah, duh. I'm sure anything is possible to adjust a car to your specific needs or comfort when you pay for it or have those specific skills yourself. But cars that simply roll out of the factory just have to comply with specific safety standards, and if they do they are safe to drive considering how tight these regulations are. Manufacturers will also hold themselves to the highest standard to prevent negligence. That women are at increased risk of being decapitated by seatbelts just sound bogus to me, and I bet there is not a single accident where that has ever taken place.

I'm all for increasing safety and comfort for every driver but at the end of the day you're still stuck with standard models, which might not provide a similar amount of comfort for every body type, male or female. Either buy a different car or have the car customized. I really don't see the problem here. Just sound like another whiny topic to demonstrate how even car manufacturers don't care about 'muh women' and only use straight, white, heterosexual male dummies in crash tests. I'm actually surprised no one mentioned how manufacturers are probably closet fat shamers as well.

Can you not sit on a booster cushion?

stroopwafel:

Lil devils x:

stroopwafel:
The 'odds' is a very vague term. If you go by actual numbers I believe much more men are involved in car crashes, meaning excessive risk taking and overconfidence contributes much more to accidents. If a seatbelt straps you into the seat and prevents you from ejecting through the windshield it's done it's purpose. Whether it's comfortable or not depends on many kinds of body types not just if you're male or female. Someone can be too tall, too fat, too short etc. It would be impossible for a manufacturer to accomodate to each and every body type.

There is always some risk involved with driving a car, and it's not like seatbelts would prevent you from serious injury or death when hit from the side or front. Cars are safer than ever but it are still drivers with shit driving skills or being under influence or distracted that causes the majority of accidents.

There is a difference between being " uncomfortable" and dangerous. People have actually been decapitated by their seatbelt due to the actual design. There is a reason you wear a safety harness instead of a seatbelt in racecars as the seatbelt was proven inadequate.
The seatbelt on me is not just uncomfortable it cuts into my neck to the point of actually makes me bleed, and leave a permanent mark on my neck, in an accident that would be far worse. I disagree that they could not better design cars to fit more body types and make adjustable a nd offer customizable options to make them safer. My father designed and built my car to his custom specifications along with all my brother's and sisters cars, you are making this out to be way more difficult than it actually is. With as much as we pay for cars, and their many customizable options, they should not have much of an issue offering something more substantial than just cupholders and custom seats, we should have more vehicles equipped with more options for safety features that actually matter. We already have cars with more adjustable seatbelt options, we just need to take this further and actually design features using different sexes and body types and make those options fit those individuals better. It isn't like it is difficult to change out seatbelts and seats easily, we already do this to give men more options in their seat design, this should be happening with seats and seatbelts designed from the ground up for women as well.

I think you do not realize how customizable cars already are, but I grew up in a family where my dad was designing, building and racing prostock cars, so I don't see things to be as rigid as that. When my dad wanted the car to be 5 inches shorter, he made a new frame so it would be shorter.. That is just how these things are done. Cars may be safer than ever for people they are designed to be safer for, but that does not mean they are necessarily safer for everyone else. It is time we change that. Car safety standards are ever evolving, this should just be their next evolution.

Well yeah, duh. I'm sure anything is possible to adjust a car to your specific needs or comfort when you pay for it or have those specific skills yourself. But cars that simply roll out of the factory just have to comply with specific safety standards, and if they do they are safe to drive considering how tight these regulations are. Manufacturers will also hold themselves to the highest standard to prevent negligence. That women are at increased risk of being decapitated by seatbelts just sound bogus to me, and I bet there is not a single accident where that has ever taken place.

I'm all for increasing safety and comfort for every driver but at the end of the day you're still stuck with standard models, which might not provide a similar amount of comfort for every body type, male or female. Either buy a different car or have the car customized. I really don't see the problem here. Just sound like another whiny topic to demonstrate how even car manufacturers don't care about 'muh women' and only use straight, white, heterosexual male dummies in crash tests. I'm actually surprised no one mentioned how manufacturers are probably closet fat shamers as well.

The highest safety standards for who? If they are not even testing cars for their safety to women, how can they possibly claim they are the highest safety standards? Having the highest safety standards for men leaves out half the population. Custom seats are already a pretty common thing, often people replace them themselves as it is due to wanting " bucket seats", as it isn't even difficult to do really. We just need some seats actually designed for women as options here. No women being decapitated by seatbelts is actually an issue. Of course something as decapitation is on the worst case end but women are seriously injured by their seatbelts all the time. And yes there have been reports of decapitation issues, I am surprised you had not heard about this before:

Katie Flynn was decapitated while wearing a seat belt, in a 2005 car crash on Long Island, New York.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/katie-flynn-car-crash/

Toyota ordered to pay $12.5 million to woman 'virtually decapitated' by seat belt

https://www.autonews.com/article/20141021/OEM11/141029967/toyota-ordered-to-pay-12-5-million-to-woman-virtually-decapitated-by-seat-belt

Of course people should STILL wear sealtbelt as the dangers of not wearing a seatbelt are far worse than wearing one, and that is why we do not like to focus on the injuries caused by the belts as much as we do on not wearing them, it is just we need to always work on improving them and we are not doing that if we are not even using women in the testing.

Women being 73% more likely to die in an accident is far from " whining" about a "non issue". The crash dummy they use hardly even has any breasts and does not even remotely represent an average woman's body type. Car manufacturers are not even offering customization options to increase safety for women because they do not even have adequate female test dummies to create them in the first place or did you forget about that part? Women are half the population, not some remote group, it is time they started being treated like it. Why are not half the standard test dummies women? Why are custom features not being designed for women's bodies? I am not saying that every car needs to be designed for women, the cars need to be designed and tested for the people who are driving them and half of those people happen to be women as well. You don't see the problem because it doesn't affect you, that does not mean there isn't a serious problem here.

You see this is an important factor here:

Crashes involving male drivers often are more severe than those involving female drivers. However, females are more likely than males to be killed or injured in crashes of equal severity

Females are being more severely injured by accidents that are not doing so to men. Yes, male drivers are in more severe accidents than women, but that is due to males being more reckless when driving and taking more risks. This is telling us that male drivers are more dangerous than females:

"Men typically drive more miles than women and more often engage in risky driving practices including not using safety belts, driving while impaired by alcohol, and speeding,"

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvdpgv/people-think-women-are-worse-drivers-than-menstatistics-say-otherwise

But even with the same severity of accidents women are dying because the car is not designed for "maximum safety standards" for women at all. THAT is the problem and not just some whiny BS as you suggested here.

Women being better drivers does not mean they should not also have cars better designed for their safety.

Baffle2:
Can you not sit on a booster cushion?

\Then how would I reach the pedals?

Lil devils x:

\Then how would I reach the pedals?

Wear platforms. I hear Gary Glitter doesn't get to wear his much any more.

Baffle2:

Lil devils x:

\Then how would I reach the pedals?

Wear platforms. I hear Gary Glitter doesn't get to wear his much any more.

Yea, sitting in a high chair and braking with stilts is going to make me safer while driving. XD

If It is my car and I am expected to drive it, would it not make more sense to have it designed with the driver's safety in mind? They cannot even design cars for women when they don't even use women's body shapes to design them in the first place. They do not have the data on women's bodies to be able to make a good design to begin with. That is where they need to start.

Yup, leave it to Jezebel to squeeze one out to drive clicks and the outrage machine using one cherry-picked statistic that doesn't actually jive with driver, wreck, and fatality statistics as a factor of gender. And even then, they still manage to misrepresent the findings. The risk of injury or death is only higher in observed crashes of equal severity, and only among younger age groups.

Buh muh crash test dummies.

Women are actually the majority group of drivers in the US. Despite this, men still drive about 30% more miles per driver than women despite the mileage gap having been considerably narrowed in the past fifty years. Even controlling for mileage, women are overall less likely to be involved in wrecks and severe wrecks, less likely to be injured, and less likely to die, and incidence rate among women has decreased more among women than men despite this.

Men are also more likely to drive less safe vehicles, and engage in riskier behaviors, than women. Including distracted driving which is vastly more common among women drivers, despite the current lack of data on it and incorporation into larger data sets as a high-risk behavior.

Which is why approximately 40-50% more men (depending on year of study and source) die per year in car wrecks than women. Buh muh crash test dummies!

Sources/information:

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/gender

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvdpgv/people-think-women-are-worse-drivers-than-menstatistics-say-otherwise

https://www.allenandallen.com/the-influence-of-gender-in-motor-vehicle-fatalities/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-vs-women-who-are-safer-drivers/

https://news.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/women-drivers-closing-the-mileage-gap-findings-20150511.pdf

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/07/10/494586.htm

https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving

Lil devils x:
https://jezebel.com/women-are-dying-in-car-accidents-because-the-only-femal-1836527298

So yea, women make up half the population, but automotive makers still haven't bothered to make them safe for women. Seatbelts, even when not in an accident leave marks and have even cut my neck due to where they rest on my body and I have had to disable my airbags due to my height putting me at risk of decapitation. I have to have my seat pulled up to the lowest setting to even reach the brake and gas, and there are still plenty of women shorter than I am. Cars are obviously not designed for women and you would think by now they would have started to work on that as there are plenty of women buying and riding in cars these days, but apparently it still is not a priority to automakers as they have not yet bothered.

Is the problem here that you are a woman or that you are just a short person? Seems to be the latter rather than the former.

Eacaraxe:
Yup, leave it to Jezebel to squeeze one out to drive clicks and the outrage machine using one cherry-picked statistic that doesn't actually jive with driver, wreck, and fatality statistics as a factor of gender. And even then, they still manage to misrepresent the findings. The risk of injury or death is only higher in observed crashes of equal severity, and only among younger age groups.

Buh muh crash test dummies.

Women are actually the majority group of drivers in the US. Despite this, men still drive about 30% more miles per driver than women despite the mileage gap having been considerably narrowed in the past fifty years. Even controlling for mileage, women are overall less likely to be involved in wrecks, less likely to be injured, and less likely to die, and incidence rate among women has decreased more among women than men despite this.

Men are also more likely to drive less safe vehicles, and engage in riskier behaviors, than women. Including distracted driving which is vastly more common among women drivers, despite the current lack of data on it and incorporation into larger data sets as a high-risk behavior.

Sources/information:

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/gender

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qvdpgv/people-think-women-are-worse-drivers-than-menstatistics-say-otherwise

https://www.allenandallen.com/the-influence-of-gender-in-motor-vehicle-fatalities/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-vs-women-who-are-safer-drivers/

https://news.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/women-drivers-closing-the-mileage-gap-findings-20150511.pdf

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/07/10/494586.htm

https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving

I think you missed the point. As bolded above in the thread already, yes, men are worse drivers and cause more accidents, but the same severity of accidents result in more severe injuries in women. When a man and a woman have the same exact accidents, men are injured less. That is the entire point of the article here.

No one said that men had less accidents, it is that when women are in the same severity of accident, they are injured worse because they do not even have crash dummies to be able to test the data on women in the first place. The cars are not being designed to increase the safety to women because they do not even have the data available to do so. They cannot obtain the data without actually using women's bodies to gather the data in the first place. You cannot design a car for a woman driver without actually using a woman's body.

Men's stats here are pretty irrelevant to the topic outside of a comparison for the same severity of accident.

If a woman is going to be the only driver of their car, why is it still being designed for a man?

EDIT: This is about women having cars designed for their safety, not about men demanding all cars be designed for them because they want to drive like lunatics.

bluegate:

Lil devils x:
https://jezebel.com/women-are-dying-in-car-accidents-because-the-only-femal-1836527298

So yea, women make up half the population, but automotive makers still haven't bothered to make them safe for women. Seatbelts, even when not in an accident leave marks and have even cut my neck due to where they rest on my body and I have had to disable my airbags due to my height putting me at risk of decapitation. I have to have my seat pulled up to the lowest setting to even reach the brake and gas, and there are still plenty of women shorter than I am. Cars are obviously not designed for women and you would think by now they would have started to work on that as there are plenty of women buying and riding in cars these days, but apparently it still is not a priority to automakers as they have not yet bothered.

Is the problem here that you are a woman or that you are just a short person? Seems to be the latter rather than the former.

Both. My height is only one part of it, I have large breasts on a petite frame and I carry them high with a small waist with an hourglass type body shape. This prevents the seatbelt from crossing my body and resting where it should. The seat belt has a huge space across my lower body and then pushes hard on the top of my body. I can slide in and out of the lap belt, which also causes me to slide forward because the lap belt is based on the width of the seat which is much wider than I am. I can slide under the lap belt entirely while having the shoulder strap choking me. The whole design is a mess for someone like me.

Lil devils x:
...When a man and a woman have the same exact accidents, men are injured less...

Just never mind the whole thing about severe injury and fatality incidence decreasing at a faster rate among women than men, despite the milage gap closing due to women's average mileage approaching men's. Women are driving more and having less injurious and fatal wrecks, period.

Never mind the actual study in question pointing out fatality and injury discrepancy between men and women is a factor of age.

Muh crash test dummies.

Eacaraxe:

Lil devils x:
...When a man and a woman have the same exact accidents, men are injured less...

Just never mind the whole thing about severe injury and fatality incidence decreasing at a faster rate among women than men, despite the milage gap closing due to women's average mileage approaching men's. Women are driving more and having less injurious and fatal wrecks, period.

Never mind the actual study in question pointing out fatality and injury discrepancy between men and women is a factor of age.

Muh crash test dummies.

Women being better drivers is irrelevant to having a car designed for their safety. Men wanting to drive like lunatics is not a "reason" to not design cars for women. If more drivers are women, that means those women driving should have cars designed for their safety.

If a man is not driving my car, there is no reason it should be designed for a man. Men doing stupid shat is irrelevant to how a car driven by me should be designed. Simply because women have less accidents then men is not a reason to ignore our safety.

EDIT: Age is not the actual determining factor, body size and shape is, as it is pretty well known that most people get fatter as they age so women would be less likely to have the design issues the more they fill up the seat. If I was fatter, I would not have the problem of sliding under the lapbelt due to the width of the lapbelt being based on the size if the seat, which is much wider than I am. The correlation between age has to do with average weight gain than the actual age itself, and not all women get fat as they age BTW. Some women have this issue for their entire lives.

You have to look at what is happening to their actual bodies during an accident. If a woman is sliding under the seat belt, as I do, it is not doing it's job.

Lil devils x:
Yea, sitting in a high chair and braking with stilts is going to make me safer while driving. XD

I feel I'm throwing out good solutions and you're being picky about safety. Have you considered just getting a motorbike? Or a boat?

Baffle2:

Lil devils x:
Yea, sitting in a high chair and braking with stilts is going to make me safer while driving. XD

I feel I'm throwing out good solutions and you're being picky about safety. Have you considered just getting a motorbike? Or a boat?

Speaking of which, when I bartended in college at a beach club, I used to actually drive a kawasaki jet ski to work every day and hide it in the cattails by my apartment so I could drive it across the bay instead of having to do this whole pain in the ass long ass one way loop on the highway to get to work every day. The jet ski was so much faster. Besides I was the bartender/lifeguard on duty so I working in a bikini anyhow so I didn't even have to change for work. :D

Lil devils x:
Simply because women have less accidents then men is not a reason to ignore our safety.

Say it with me, factor of age. Intervening variables are boss, yo. Otherwise, might I suggest you at least read the abstract of the actual report which I just linked you, wherein it is argued non-belt protection technologies are just as if not more effective for women drivers than men.

All of the major occupant protection technologies in vehicles of recent model years have at least some benefit for adults of all age groups and of either gender[/b]; none of them are harmful for a particular age group or gender. Nevertheless, seat belts have been historically somewhat less effective for older occupants and female passengers, but more effective for female drivers. Frontal air bags are about equally effective across all ages; side air bags may be even more effective for older occupants than for young adults. Air bags and other non-belt protection technologies are helping females just as much and quite possibly even more than they protect males; this may have contributed to shrinking the historical risk increase for females relative to males of the same age.

Which means this is an already solved issue, it boils down to maturation, proliferation, and saturation of these technologies. Which is already occurring, because if you actually read the links I cited earlier and do some consideration, vehicles which incorporate non-belt protection technologies are already preferred and used by women. Which perhaps might be why occurrence of severe injuries and fatalities among women are decreasing at a greater rate among women than men, despite increasing average mileage.

Buh muh crash test dummies.

Eacaraxe:

Lil devils x:
Simply because women have less accidents then men is not a reason to ignore our safety.

Say it with me, factor of age. Intervening variables are boss, yo. Otherwise, might I suggest you at least read the abstract of the actual report which I just linked you, wherein it is argued non-belt protection technologies are just as if not more effective for women drivers than men.

Which means this is an already solved issue, it boils down to maturation, proliferation, and saturation of these technologies. Which is already occurring, because if you actually read the links I cited earlier and do some consideration, vehicles which incorporate non-belt protection technologies are already preferred and used by women. Which perhaps might be why occurrence of severe injuries and fatalities among women are decreasing at a greater rate among women than men, despite increasing average mileage.

Buh muh crash test dummies.

Read my edit above. It really has nothing to do with age, it has to do with what is happening to the bodies during the accident. Most women getting fatter as they age does not mean that the car is any safer for women who do not. That is why we actually need crash dummies so they can see what happens to our bodies in an accident. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

It's not just seatbelts either, women in both the police and military have reported that their body armour won't protect them properly simply due to how ill-fitting it is and thats assuming it can fit them at all since it wasn't designed to go over boobs

Palindromemordnilap:
It's not just seatbelts either, women in both the police and military have reported that their body armour won't protect them properly simply due to how ill-fitting it is and thats assuming it can fit them at all since it wasn't designed to go over boobs

And god forbid you have big boobs and a small waist, then nothing fits. If it is made to fit your hips it will ride up to your waist. If it is made to fit your boobs, it will ride up to your nose and twist all over your body where the space is at the waist. It is ridiculous really. I had the same problem with my life vests. They too are not made for women's body shapes and if you manage to get one that fits your boobs it tries to come off you the second you hit the water because the side straps do not adjust small enough for the waist to keep it in place.

Lil devils x:
Read my edit above. It really has nothing to do with age, it has to do with what is happening to the bodies during the accident. Most women getting fatter as they age does not mean that the car is any safer for women who do not. That is why we actually need crash dummies so they can see what happens to our bodies in an accident. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Oh man, thanks for pointing that out. So, discrepancies in injury rates between men and women are attributed to differences in bone density. The same correlation between injury/fatality and stature is present among men. Which is why injury and fatality among men increases at a greater rate than women until the age of 35, at which point it normalizes.

So guess of what, other than gender, bone density is a factor! So how might we jive that with normalized rates of injury/fatality in post-menopausal women?

Just read the damn report already. Or just keep going muh crash test dummies. Whatevs.

Lil devils x:

Palindromemordnilap:
It's not just seatbelts either, women in both the police and military have reported that their body armour won't protect them properly simply due to how ill-fitting it is and thats assuming it can fit them at all since it wasn't designed to go over boobs

And god forbid you have big boobs and a small waist, then nothing fits. If it is made to fit your hips it will ride up to your waist. If it is made to fit your boobs, it will ride up to your nose and twist all over your body where the space is at the waist. It is ridiculous really. I had the same problem with my life vests. They too are not made for women's body shapes and if you manage to get one that fits your boobs it tries to come off you the second you hit the water because the side straps do not adjust small enough for the waist to keep it in place.

I work a job where we are required to wear high-vis PPE, and literally every woman I have worked with has said how poorly it fits them. Its only lately we've been bringing out specific female fitting PPE and its being treated as worth its weight in gold simply for how much of a relief it has to have stuff that they can actually work in

Eacaraxe:

Lil devils x:
Read my edit above. It really has nothing to do with age, it has to do with what is happening to the bodies during the accident. Most women getting fatter as they age does not mean that the car is any safer for women who do not. That is why we actually need crash dummies so they can see what happens to our bodies in an accident. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Oh man, thanks for pointing that out. So, discrepancies in injury rates between men and women are a factor of bone density. The same correlation between injury/fatality and stature is present among men. Which is why injury and fatality among men increases at a greater rate than women until the age of 35, at which point it normalizes.

So guess of what, other than gender, bone density is a factor!

Just read the damn report already.

That is one of many factors.
This study made it pretty clear the specifics of what they were focused on:

The aims and objectives are summarised as follows;

To identify relationships between height and injury outcome for drivers of European passenger cars;

To identify by height those members of the population with an increased probability of serious injury compared with standardised probability across all heights

To investigate the relationship between height and seating position for those with a possible increased risk of injury.

In addition, this data is from vehicles 20 years old, not even cars that are currently on the road. There is far more to a woman than her "height" and skeletal structure. Those are factors, yes, but they are not the only factors involved. Yes, CRASH DUMMIES are needed.

THIS may help get you started in understanding male vs female injuries:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2517312/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4057258/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357874/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4818312/

Here we go, where they actually start focusing on women's bodies, and this one points out that obese women have it even worse than skinny women:

Now researchers are beginning to move beyond the consensus choice - the 50th percentile male - to look at other vulnerable populations, and the University of Virginia's Center for Applied Biomechanics is taking a leading role. Foremost among these groups are women. In 2011, the center's researchers published a study demonstrating that women wearing seat belts were 47 percent more likely than male seatbelt-wearers to suffer severe injury, even after controlling for age, height, weight and the severity of the crash. The discrepancy is especially pronounced for lower-extremity injuries.

"For years, we used a technique called geometric scaling to forecast how human beings of different sizes would respond to crashes," said assistant professor James Kerrigan, the Center for Applied Biomechanics' deputy director. "Not only does extrapolation not work for males, but it particularly doesn't work for females."

Among the many dissimilarities potentially affecting results are different ligament laxity and bone shape.

One of Kerrigan's graduate students, Carolyn Roberts, is focusing on this issue. Roberts is trying to understand the biomechanical differences between males and females and determine how these differences affect injury tolerance. With support from Autoliv, one of the largest makers of airbags and seatbelts, she is determining the precise limitations of the current methodologies used to predict female response and developing a companion dataset of female injury response data. This will enable her to identify specific test conditions where male-to-female prediction techniques fail.

https://phys.org/news/2018-10-women-obese-passengers-worst-car-crash.html

Lil devils x:
Women being better drivers is irrelevant to having a car designed for their safety. Men wanting to drive like lunatics is not a "reason" to not design cars for women. If more drivers are women, that means those women driving should have cars designed for their safety.

That's a bit of a generalization there. I don't think accidents caused by excessive risk taking or overconfidence is representative for men as a whole, but rather increased risk of a specific age group that also gets men in trouble in other domains in life. That's probably also a component of hormones that aggravate risk taking and aggression among things and is espescially prevalent in young men. This itself doesn't make women 'better drivers', just that they aren't biologically predisposed to the same risk factors, or to a much lesser extent. Doesn't invalidate the severity of such behaviors ofcourse or should in any way serve as an excuse for lethal or severe car crashes due to negligence but reduced impulse control does have a neurobiological component that is largely male, and primarily manifest in a young age group. Women are more docile unless they know they are protected by the social environment and won't take risks on their own or feel the need to 'prove' themselves trough reckless behavior. Again, has it's roots in neurochemistry.

What you describe is a very specific body type you want standardized in every car which is just impossible. I'm taller than average and you won't see me driving a car with little leg room. But I won't complain that these cars exists. Similarly as I can't expect every car to accomodate my height you can't realistically expect every car should from now on be a big boob mobile. With so many cars and customization options available it really is a non-issue other than making the tired Jezebel argument that 'white male heterosexual privilege makes cars unsafe for muh women!!1'

Lil devils x:
And god forbid you have big boobs and a small waist, then nothing fits.

Belts and bras probably do (no guarantees though!).

Palindromemordnilap:

I work a job where we are required to wear high-vis PPE, and literally every woman I have worked with has said how poorly it fits them.

I think there's a general correlation between high-vis PPE and poor fitting regardless of sex, because most of it appears to have been designed to fit gorillas.

stroopwafel:

Lil devils x:
Women being better drivers is irrelevant to having a car designed for their safety. Men wanting to drive like lunatics is not a "reason" to not design cars for women. If more drivers are women, that means those women driving should have cars designed for their safety.

That's a bit of a generalization there. I don't think accidents caused by excessive risk taking or overconfidence is representative for men as a whole, but rather increased risk of a specific age group that also gets men in trouble in other domains in life. That's probably also a component of hormones that aggravate risk taking and aggression among things and is espescially prevalent in young men. This itself doesn't make women 'better drivers', just that they aren't biologically predisposed to the same risk factors, or to a much lesser extent. Doesn't invalidate the severity of such behaviors ofcourse or should in any way serve as an excuse for lethal or severe car crashes due to negligence but reduced impulse control does have a neurobiological component that is largely male, and primarily manifest in a young age group. Women are more docile unless they know they are protected by the social environment and won't take risks on their own or feel the need to 'prove' themselves trough reckless behavior. Again, has it's roots in neurochemistry.

What you describe is a very specific body type you want standardized in every car which is just impossible. I'm taller than average and you won't see me driving a car with little leg room. But I won't complain that these cars exists. Similarly as I can't expect every car to accomodate my height you can't realistically expect every car should from now on be a big boob mobile. With so many cars and customization options available it really is a non-issue other than making the tired Jezebel argument that 'white male heterosexual privilige makes cars unsafe for muh women!!1'

It actually does make women " better drivers" if they are choosing not to drive around like lunatics simply because they are a certain age. LOL!

I never said I wanted a specific body type standardized in every car. Please show me where I even suggested such, as I did not. I want the options available and they currently are not. They already do have custom seat and seat belt options designed for tall men, just not for tall women, just as they have custom seat options for short men, but not short women. That is what needs to change here.
They just started doing real tests on women recently, we are still a good ways away from actually designing vehicle options for women. Adding a mirror to the visor is not a " female centric" option as they have suggested in the past btw, it was nonsense.

They have just started studying how women's soft tissues react to be able to actually make designs in the future so hopefully we will get there one day. We are not there yet however. Women wanting to have cars designed with them in mind is no different than men wanting to have cars designed with them in mind. This is far from being a non issue to those of us who need these options to be safe in our vehicles.

You seem to be the only one ranting about heterosexual white male nonsense in this thread, maybe you have issues you should address. Especially when you spout off nonsense like "women are more docile unless they know they are protected by the social environment". Not wanting to drive like an idiot does not make one " docile unless they know they are protected by the social environment". It means they think doing stupid things like driving like an idiot is stupid.

Lil devils x:
We are not there yet however. Women wanting to have cars designed with them in mind is no different than men wanting to have cars designed with them in mind. This is far from being a non issue to those of us who need these options to be safe in our vehicles.

Again you imply there is some implicit bias with the design of cars that are detrimental to women but why would any manufacturer deliberately alienate half of their consumers? That doesn't make sense. Espescially if you consider many car commercials are even specifically aimed at women.

Say you were right and they now only make cars with women in mind. Then what women? Tall women with small boobs? Short women with big boobs? What about plumpers, grannies or male-to-female? Good luck finding one standard you will all find equally comfortable.

You seem to be the only one ranting about heterosexual white male nonsense in this thread, maybe you have issues you should address.

Ehmm..you quote a Jezebel article so please don't dance around the issue like you don't know what their agenda is.

Lil devils x:
It means they think doing stupid things like driving like an idiot is stupid.

I never argued this I only added that male hormones, which is specifically prevalent in young men, contributes to reckless behavior. Which is simply stating an objective fact. Hence why young men have more accidents as it's the only common denominator. Again, just to point it out, doesn't excuse negligence or, in the worst case, involuntary manslaughter or grave injury.

stroopwafel:

Lil devils x:
We are not there yet however. Women wanting to have cars designed with them in mind is no different than men wanting to have cars designed with them in mind. This is far from being a non issue to those of us who need these options to be safe in our vehicles.

Again you imply there is some implicit bias with the design of cars that are detrimental to women but why would any manufacturer deliberately alienate half of their consumers? That doesn't make sense. Espescially if you consider many car commercials are even specifically aimed at women.

Say you were right and they now only make cars with women in mind. Then what women? Tall women with small boobs? Short women with big boobs? What about plumpers, grannies or male-to-female? Good luck finding one standard you will all find equally comfortable.

You seem to be the only one ranting about heterosexual white male nonsense in this thread, maybe you have issues you should address.

Ehmm..you quote a Jezebel article so please don't dance around the issue like you don't know what their agenda is.

They didn't " deliberately alienate customers" they just didn't think about it until now. When you have men designing things for men, women are often an " afterthought" especially since in the past it was not as common for women to buy and drive cars as it is today and old habits die hard. The industry is just lagging. But as I linked above, this should be changing in the future now that they have started working on it in recent years to actually find out how these thing impact females. They have not even studied this properly until recently.

Who would be right saying that they only make cars for women in mind? I never said that, did you? They should be making options for both men and women. if a guy can go buy a tall man's seat and seat belt option, a tall woman should be able to do the same. You should have mix and match options like they do already, just more of them that include women's options. Men mix and match their seats and seat belts as it is already, why should women not be able to do the same? Women get to do this with mix and match bikini sets so they can have a large top that fits and a small bottom in the same set, mixing and matching seats and seat belt options should be no different.

Oh why don't you tell me what you think "Jezebel's agenda" is. Considering I come from an actual matriarchal culture, this has got to be a good laugh. Most of the nonsense I hear spouted off about male and female biological roles is utter nonsense and simply a matter of social conditioning depending on the cultural norms.

Lil devils x:
This study made it pretty clear the specifics of what they were focused on:

Yup, then they went and found height is the determinant factor, and that gender is a confounding variable due to women, on average, being shorter than men.

In addition, this data is from vehicles 20 years old, not even cars that are currently on the road.

You mean cars made before the maturation and proliferation of air bag technology? The one that still finds air bags have better outcomes for shorter-statured people (read, mostly women) than not?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2517312/

About athletic injuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4057258/

Traumatic injury in sum, not limited to car wrecks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357874/

Congratulations, you found one link that actually supports an argument. In the case of lap-belt related injuries. That require hospitalization, not necessarily injuries that cause death. In the context of increasing awareness for proper diagnosis and injury management.

Which is funny, considering on page 93 of the NHTSA report, it is pointed out women are at higher risk than men of abdominal injury regardless of lap belt, and it is posited this boils down to sex-based differences in skeleture of the ribcage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4818312/

About missed injuries in diagnosis.

You didn't even account for one key factor the NHTSA report identified (again, page 93), which you might otherwise have pointed out. Women are more at risk for head and neck injury due to discrepancies in the weight of the head, versus musculature and bone mass differences. In other words, women's heads are nearly the same size as men's, but have less supporting musculature and thinner, less dense, cervical vertebrae. But of course, seat belts don't protect against neck and head injuries (in fact, chest belts exaggerate the risk and severity of head- and neck-related injuries, especially in women), so muh crash test dummies.

Just read the damn report already.

Let's just ELI5 this for a second. Injury and fatality rate are more closely linked to height, not gender, and what gendered differences there are can be attributed to women's skeleture compared to men's. And even among women, shorter and more petite women are higher-risk groups. Taking these factors into consideration, the NHTSA introduced a woman-type dummy representative of one who would be at the highest risk of severe injury or fatality in a car wreck. Not even average as in the case of men, HIGHEST risk.

Meanwhile, non-belt protective devices such as air bags benefit smaller-statured persons across the board, but this is especially important to women due to gendered differences in height. Which means this is a largely solved issue and the matter is down to maturation and proliferation of non-belt protective technology, as accident and fatality statistics demonstrate. Particularly, the discrepancy between injury and fatality rate reduction between men and women, despite more women driving and for more miles on average over the past fifty years.

Not that a word of this actually matters to Jezebel, which is clearly more concerned over pushing "muh patriarchy!" mean-world syndrome clicks than women's safety.

Eacaraxe:

Which means this is an already solved issue, it boils down to maturation, proliferation, and saturation of these technologies.

What? That's not what that says or implies. Not even the bit you directly quoted.

Other technologies "may shrink the risk". Identifying an ameliorating factor doesn't mean the original issue is entirely negated.

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