[Politics] Apparently I'm 'Canadian' before I even knew it (The Dangers of Coded Language)

This is the NSFW open deposition of Physician Assistant Anthony Simon. Racial Epthiets are in the video.

So yeah. Canadian is the same as the N-Word. I literally had no idea until tonight that was a thing.

To those wondering why a few of us can not stop talking about politics, this is the other reason. We have the existing while black, we have the immigrants and people afraid to leave their houses, we have a tradition of Olympic hopefuls having their hard work weaponized to allow sexual assault on one hand.

And then, on the other, we have Coded Language used all around us which tells those in the know that we aren't welcomed. This is so they can look all above board on the surface, all the while still worrying outcomes continue to be the norm in society. And further still, we have people shrugging and saying "Hey, they aren't calling you the N-Word, so I don't see anything that says you're getting worse health care just because you're a minority. Stop playing the race card."

We keep talking about Politics because politics continue to happen, and even when it seems like it is not, it is happening around you. We talk about it to keep informed and to protect ourselves. I wish people didn't have to be put out because of it. But more over, I more wish we didn't have to live in a society that makes it important to continue to talk about it.

sidebar: The rub of this situation that Simon's behavior was outed via an anonymous tip. The Hospital in turn GAVE the Tipster's info to Simon who proceeded to sue the Tipster. Class acts in Memorial Hermann ER.

This is what you get when you drive the racists underground. I'm sure a lot more harm came out of this than if they were actually allowed to use the N word freely since people would know what they're dealing with.

It's funny though, what do they call actual black canadians? Super Canadians?

But yeah, this video is very weird for me because the guy defines hispanic or african american people as of "different cultures" whereas to me from my European origin perspective they're all part of the american culture. There's so much more in common that to focus on the few things set apart in these communities seems just completely insane to me. And how the hell is someone being overweight a culture? Outside of being a Sumo wrestler I mean.

Dreiko:
This is what you get when you drive the racists underground. I'm sure a lot more harm came out of this than if they were actually allowed to use the N word freely since people would know what they're dealing with.

So if people just tolerated the openly racist, society would be less racist? What?

Wouldn't the way you'd react (assuming you find racism sick) to openly racist language give them cues that would make them moderate their language accordingly so as not to get shunned, basically doing the same thing as 'drive the racists underground'?
Or tolerating racism would give them confidence and they'd band together to become the majority and then you'd have no choice but to tolerate it because that would be the new standard?
Your idea that somehow not tolerating poor oppressed racists is what makes them more racist is, strange.

Kwak:

Dreiko:
This is what you get when you drive the racists underground. I'm sure a lot more harm came out of this than if they were actually allowed to use the N word freely since people would know what they're dealing with.

So if people just tolerated the openly racist, society would be less racist? What?

Wouldn't the way you'd react (assuming you find racism sick) to openly racist language give them cues that would make them moderate their language accordingly so as not to get shunned, basically doing the same thing as 'drive the racists underground'?
Or tolerating racism would give them confidence and they'd band together to become the majority and then you'd have no choice but to tolerate it because that would be the new standard?
Your idea that somehow not tolerating poor oppressed racists is what makes them more racist is, strange.

What I believe is that a lot of people do in fact tolerate it, they just pretend they do not for the most part, in order to virtue signal.

So the situation is one where people will be tolerating racism anyhow, and what you have to pick between is them being sneaky about it and trying to make it seem innocuous which may fool some good-meaning people, or them being flagrant about it.

The third scenario of racism actually going down because we don't tolerate it is not a possibility. All you are observing when you see it "go down" is simply being driven underground and coded in these ways.

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Dreiko:

Kwak:

Dreiko:
This is what you get when you drive the racists underground. I'm sure a lot more harm came out of this than if they were actually allowed to use the N word freely since people would know what they're dealing with.

So if people just tolerated the openly racist, society would be less racist? What?

Wouldn't the way you'd react (assuming you find racism sick) to openly racist language give them cues that would make them moderate their language accordingly so as not to get shunned, basically doing the same thing as 'drive the racists underground'?
Or tolerating racism would give them confidence and they'd band together to become the majority and then you'd have no choice but to tolerate it because that would be the new standard?
Your idea that somehow not tolerating poor oppressed racists is what makes them more racist is, strange.

What I believe is that a lot of people do in fact tolerate it, they just pretend they do not for the most part, in order to virtue signal.

So the situation is one where people will be tolerating racism anyhow, and what you have to pick between is them being sneaky about it and trying to make it seem innocuous which may fool some good-meaning people, or them being flagrant about it.

The third scenario of racism actually going down because we don't tolerate it is not a possibility. All you are observing when you see it "go down" is simply being driven underground and coded in these ways.

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Or people could just stop pretending that defending Nazis is anything but defending Nazi ideology.

People who hold such beliefs should be prevented from working in fields where they can cause harm to the public. There is no reason why this man or anyone else who espouses such things should ever be allowed to work with patients.

Dreiko:
This is what you get when you drive the racists underground. I'm sure a lot more harm came out of this than if they were actually allowed to use the N word freely since people would know what they're dealing with.

It's funny though, what do they call actual black canadians? Super Canadians?

But yeah, this video is very weird for me because the guy defines hispanic or african american people as of "different cultures" whereas to me from my European origin perspective they're all part of the american culture. There's so much more in common that to focus on the few things set apart in these communities seems just completely insane to me. And how the hell is someone being overweight a culture? Outside of being a Sumo wrestler I mean.

That is the opposite of what happens. This is allowed to happen because he was not driven underground. He was allowed to inflict harm upon patients due this behavior being tolerated, not because it was not tolerated. For it to actually be driven underground he would have been screened out and not able to have access to fields where he could use his dangerous beliefs to inflict harm upon people. When society does not tolerate these things, he would not have been able to violate the ethics of his field in the first place as the first time it happened, he would have been terminated and blacklisted.

Saelune:

Dreiko:

Kwak:

So if people just tolerated the openly racist, society would be less racist? What?

Wouldn't the way you'd react (assuming you find racism sick) to openly racist language give them cues that would make them moderate their language accordingly so as not to get shunned, basically doing the same thing as 'drive the racists underground'?
Or tolerating racism would give them confidence and they'd band together to become the majority and then you'd have no choice but to tolerate it because that would be the new standard?
Your idea that somehow not tolerating poor oppressed racists is what makes them more racist is, strange.

What I believe is that a lot of people do in fact tolerate it, they just pretend they do not for the most part, in order to virtue signal.

So the situation is one where people will be tolerating racism anyhow, and what you have to pick between is them being sneaky about it and trying to make it seem innocuous which may fool some good-meaning people, or them being flagrant about it.

The third scenario of racism actually going down because we don't tolerate it is not a possibility. All you are observing when you see it "go down" is simply being driven underground and coded in these ways.

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Or people could just stop pretending that defending Nazis is anything but defending Nazi ideology.

That really depends if you're defending them on the basis of them being human beings and having rights like everyone else or if you're defending them cause you think their ideology in particular makes them worth defending.

There's the whole "I may not agree with what you say but I'd fight to the death for your right to say it" that all liberal democracy is based upon. That nazis abuse this good principle to spread their hate doesn't mean we have to acquiesce to them and let them rob us of it.

we wuz canadians

its not a good code word

Dreiko:

Saelune:

Dreiko:

What I believe is that a lot of people do in fact tolerate it, they just pretend they do not for the most part, in order to virtue signal.

So the situation is one where people will be tolerating racism anyhow, and what you have to pick between is them being sneaky about it and trying to make it seem innocuous which may fool some good-meaning people, or them being flagrant about it.

The third scenario of racism actually going down because we don't tolerate it is not a possibility. All you are observing when you see it "go down" is simply being driven underground and coded in these ways.

The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Or people could just stop pretending that defending Nazis is anything but defending Nazi ideology.

That really depends if you're defending them on the basis of them being human beings and having rights like everyone else or if you're defending them cause you think their ideology in particular makes them worth defending.

There's the whole "I may not agree with what you say but I'd fight to the death for your right to say it" that all liberal democracy is based upon. That nazis abuse this good principle to spread their hate doesn't mean we have to acquiesce to them and let them rob us of it.

If you think Nazis should be allowed to say Nazi shit, you're defending Nazi ideology.

Marik2:
we wuz canadians

its not a good code word

I've heard better coded language from those on the far-right. "Dolphins" is one example, because it has extreme plausible deniability.

Saelune:
If you think Nazis should be allowed to say Nazi shit, you're defending Nazi ideology.

That doesn't really follow.

We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

Worgen:
We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

If Canada is America's hat, it only makes sense that if we get lice, they tend to accumulate at the top.

My, that was a poorly worded metaphor.

That being said...

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

Dig deep enough and you'll find all kinds of euphemisms used by racists and worse (some funny, others not so much).

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

If people don't know that racism is wrong, they've chosen not to know. Reasoned debate only works when people are interested in it.

Just look at flat-earthers, creationists, homeopathists, anti-vaxxers etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who takes any time seriously considering those viewpoints and is willing to consider actual facts and evidence can see they are totally wrong. But zillions of people hold those views because that's setting the bar far too high.

erttheking:

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

Thaluikhain:

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

If people don't know that racism is wrong, they've chosen not to know. Reasoned debate only works when people are interested in it.

Just look at flat-earthers, creationists, homeopathists, anti-vaxxers etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who takes any time seriously considering those viewpoints and is willing to consider actual facts and evidence can see they are totally wrong. But zillions of people hold those views because that's setting the bar far too high.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

Dreiko:

erttheking:

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

Thaluikhain:

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

If people don't know that racism is wrong, they've chosen not to know. Reasoned debate only works when people are interested in it.

Just look at flat-earthers, creationists, homeopathists, anti-vaxxers etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who takes any time seriously considering those viewpoints and is willing to consider actual facts and evidence can see they are totally wrong. But zillions of people hold those views because that's setting the bar far too high.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

erttheking:

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

Thaluikhain:

If people don't know that racism is wrong, they've chosen not to know. Reasoned debate only works when people are interested in it.

Just look at flat-earthers, creationists, homeopathists, anti-vaxxers etc. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who takes any time seriously considering those viewpoints and is willing to consider actual facts and evidence can see they are totally wrong. But zillions of people hold those views because that's setting the bar far too high.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The way civil rights were achieved was by persuading people with power to allow them. Black people weren't the ones with the power to end segregation at the time, they just were right and persuaded those who were in power to do it. Women didn't have the vote so they literally couldn't legislate for them to get the vote to the chagrin of those who were against that, either, they actually convinced those in power through logic.

There was a time where those in power would not agree to ending segregation, they would not agree to tackle workplace discrimination. Causing these people to shift is an example of the sort of persuasion I'm talking about.

I think the reason why my approach seems unpalatable is that it puts the power not in the hands of those who want to have it, so even if it does give positive results, it will not make people feel as good about them as a culture of punching nazis does, even if such a culture is actively worse for the reduction of racism.

I think that's a really dumb and selfish way to organize society.

When you quarantine a disease you are not just leaving the person there to fester, you're actually treating them while they're quarantined. If you quarantine a disease and just stop there it may mutate into something worse.

Even if you do all that to the crazy people, there's more than enough of them to provide us with enough violent incidents to cripple society. I don't see how such treatment is any more likely to prevent more racist incidents from those people in particular. You don't really need a whole lot of them to have some terrible damage done.

Finally, if we are to believe as some say that this country is fundamentally racist and by merely being in it you become racist through osmosis, separating people isn't going to matter. It'll just make people into martyrs for no good reason. Someone like Alex Jones reached a way wider audience after he was banned from everything and turned into a victim than he'd otherwise reach.

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The way civil rights were achieved was by persuading people with power to allow them. Black people weren't the ones with the power to end segregation at the time, they just were right and persuaded those who were in power to do it. Women didn't have the vote so they literally couldn't legislate for them to get the vote to the chagrin of those who were against that, either, they actually convinced those in power through logic.

There was a time where those in power would not agree to ending segregation, they would not agree to tackle workplace discrimination. Causing these people to shift is an example of the sort of persuasion I'm talking about.

I think the reason why my approach seems unpalatable is that it puts the power not in the hands of those who want to have it, so even if it does give positive results, it will not make people feel as good about them as a culture of punching nazis does, even if such a culture is actively worse for the reduction of racism.

I think that's a really dumb and selfish way to organize society.

When you quarantine a disease you are not just leaving the person there to fester, you're actually treating them while they're quarantined. If you quarantine a disease and just stop there it may mutate into something worse.

Even if you do all that to the crazy people, there's more than enough of them to provide us with enough violent incidents to cripple society. I don't see how such treatment is any more likely to prevent more racist incidents from those people in particular. You don't really need a whole lot of them to have some terrible damage done.

Finally, if we are to believe as some say that this country is fundamentally racist and by merely being in it you become racist through osmosis, separating people isn't going to matter. It'll just make people into martyrs for no good reason. Someone like Alex Jones reached a way wider audience after he was banned from everything and turned into a victim than he'd otherwise reach.

That's not how Civil Rights were won. At all. Logic doesn't win fights. Emotions do. Obama and Trump both appealed to an emotional core of certain people in the population. Their arguments were irrelevant. They said they'd provide safety from all the ills of the people who voted for them.

Civil Rights were written in the Constitution in the 1860s. It took a bunch of people who say that Rights trumps everything else via a moral standpoint for it to win. They marched, fought, broke house and businesses and stood up to a president, to his face and said, "not good enough."

Because, no matter what, certain people are always going to hate you. They will disregard your rights no matter the logic. They will disregard laws, governments and presidents. Because they think it's their right to put you down. They see equality as hurting them, because their SPECIAL and deserve more.

If logic worked, all these problems would have been cured centuries ago

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The way civil rights were achieved was by persuading people with power to allow them. Black people weren't the ones with the power to end segregation at the time, they just were right and persuaded those who were in power to do it. Women didn't have the vote so they literally couldn't legislate for them to get the vote to the chagrin of those who were against that, either, they actually convinced those in power through logic.

There was a time where those in power would not agree to ending segregation, they would not agree to tackle workplace discrimination. Causing these people to shift is an example of the sort of persuasion I'm talking about.

I think the reason why my approach seems unpalatable is that it puts the power not in the hands of those who want to have it, so even if it does give positive results, it will not make people feel as good about them as a culture of punching nazis does, even if such a culture is actively worse for the reduction of racism.

I think that's a really dumb and selfish way to organize society.

When you quarantine a disease you are not just leaving the person there to fester, you're actually treating them while they're quarantined. If you quarantine a disease and just stop there it may mutate into something worse.

Even if you do all that to the crazy people, there's more than enough of them to provide us with enough violent incidents to cripple society. I don't see how such treatment is any more likely to prevent more racist incidents from those people in particular. You don't really need a whole lot of them to have some terrible damage done.

Finally, if we are to believe as some say that this country is fundamentally racist and by merely being in it you become racist through osmosis, separating people isn't going to matter. It'll just make people into martyrs for no good reason. Someone like Alex Jones reached a way wider audience after he was banned from everything and turned into a victim than he'd otherwise reach.

You might want to actually review history here, because what you just stated is verifiably false. Civil rights were obtained through violence, force and people refusing to take any more of this shit tbh. EVEN when MLK Jr tried to preach peace he was murdered. They had to use the National guard to escort children to school to enforce desegregation. Civil rights were obtained through blood sweat and tears. People died. Cities were destroyed. Military and police were involved. and above all, THIS HAS NOT YET ENDED.

You have this all wrong here. Racists are not being isolated, they are being educated. Think of it more like Rehab and their " fix" is racist propaganda. By shutting off the racist indoctrination BS, they will actually be able to see and hear what everyone else has been saying all along here. If everywhere they go in society throughout their life is teaching equality and showing how we are all one people, they will learn that is how people live rather than the existing pockets of areas where they are still cultivating racism through segregation and indoctrination. Ending the flow of propaganda stifles their ability to cultivate and indoctrinate people in the first place. Right now there are regions that are still so terribly racist that they are exposed to racism in all aspects of their life, from their families, friend at schools, teachers, police. They are being taught that " racism is right" from everyone they look up to in their society due to where they live and this environment being acceptable. That is what has to be remedied in order to resolve this.

Dreiko:

Lil devils x:

Dreiko:

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

You will always have crazy people stuck in their ideology. The question I'm tackling here is not "how do we completely eradicate racism from everyone" but "which approach will eradicate the racism from the most people possible while not restricting our freedoms". I never purport that my approach will manage to make insane people stop being insane. Thing is, nothing will do that. There will always be some insane people out there.

We did not end segregated restaurants, hospitals, schools and water fountains by trying to tell people, that is "not nice" we not only had to outlaw it, we literally had to bring the National Guard in to make it happen. We would not even have female or minority physicians in hospitals if it were not by force and firing of racist and sexist doctors. That is the reality of how we have had to accomplish these things and without that happening, it would not have happened at all.

Driving racism underground IS the best way to deal with it, just as we drive murder, thieving and assault underground by not tolerating it in our society. If they are limiting their own employment due to ethics violations, limiting their own ability to attend Universities due to being in violation to their code of conduct, limiting their access to social media because they are violating the rules, they will not be able to spread their toxic ideas and behavior as easily and less people will be impacted by it. Think of hate speech as a contagious disease, when diseases are extremely harmful and easily spread, they are quarantined. Outlawing hate speech is just quarantining a behavior that has repeatedly proven itself extremely harmful to society and it's sheer existence poses a threat to the rights of others ability to achieve life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

The way civil rights were achieved was by persuading people with power to allow them. Black people weren't the ones with the power to end segregation at the time, they just were right and persuaded those who were in power to do it. Women didn't have the vote so they literally couldn't legislate for them to get the vote to the chagrin of those who were against that, either, they actually convinced those in power through logic.

There was a time where those in power would not agree to ending segregation, they would not agree to tackle workplace discrimination. Causing these people to shift is an example of the sort of persuasion I'm talking about.

I think the reason why my approach seems unpalatable is that it puts the power not in the hands of those who want to have it, so even if it does give positive results, it will not make people feel as good about them as a culture of punching nazis does, even if such a culture is actively worse for the reduction of racism.

I think that's a really dumb and selfish way to organize society.

When you quarantine a disease you are not just leaving the person there to fester, you're actually treating them while they're quarantined. If you quarantine a disease and just stop there it may mutate into something worse.

Even if you do all that to the crazy people, there's more than enough of them to provide us with enough violent incidents to cripple society. I don't see how such treatment is any more likely to prevent more racist incidents from those people in particular. You don't really need a whole lot of them to have some terrible damage done.

Finally, if we are to believe as some say that this country is fundamentally racist and by merely being in it you become racist through osmosis, separating people isn't going to matter. It'll just make people into martyrs for no good reason. Someone like Alex Jones reached a way wider audience after he was banned from everything and turned into a victim than he'd otherwise reach.

Slavery was ended with war and violence.

Dreiko:

erttheking:

Dreiko:
The only way of it actually going down I can come up with is it being allowed to be proven wrong in a rational debate through logic and persuasion and to have that environment you can't be driving it underground. For example, there's this ted talk of a black musician who befriended a KKK wizard and went to their rallies and everything, ended up becoming close friends, and eventually convinced him that the KKK was wrong and he left it. If you can convince the KKK wizard, you can convince anyone.

Oh, just reason with the people who buy into pseudoscience that says that their race is superior to everyone else? One problem though. They aren't rational people. One wizard was befriended. Ok. One down, millions upon millions to go. And historically speaking, negative attitudes weren't gotten rid of because someone saw the light. More often than not, younger generations adopted more progressive ideas and the old toxic ones died out with the old generation. Dreiko? You're well-intentioned. But shockingly naive.

I never said that my approach would eradicate racism, just that it's the best option we have available to us and every other one would be even worse. The point about the wizard is that that's someone who is entrenched and bases their identity on their crazy supremacist ideology, not your run of the mill person who believes in some racist ideas while being more or less normal otherwise, so if even someone like that can be convinced, I don't get how people imply that less fanatical individuals are just beyond logic and persuasion.

It's not gonna work for everyone but it can work for more people than any other thing I can come up with.

Hate to break it to you Dreiko, people with a lot more experience than you in this subject dealt with it in ways that fall into the "worse." Laws were passed to prevent discrimination and lynching. I can only guess that you think that instead of making it illegal to string up black people and hang them until they died, we should've just talked to the people while they were breaking into the jail and dragging the black person off. I guess you think that Martin Luther King Jr. should've talked nicely to people instead of writing his harsh letter about how the white moderate who was more concerned with a negative peace in the absence of tension and how they were a bigger stumbling block to equality than the KKK could ever be. I guess you think that instead of protests and boycotting buses for racist policies, they should've asked the bus drivers nicely if they could sit in the front seat.

The fact that you act like you know better than the majority of people who acted within the civil rights movements is beyond fucking insulting. But as I've said in the past, you love to talk at great lengths about subjects that you understand very little about.

OP I thought you wanted to be Canadian.

Worgen:
We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

And Zontar.

Marik2:

Worgen:
We do seem to get some of our dumbest people from canada, like lauren southern, ben shipireo and jf.

And Zontar.

Zontar was fine as long as he was speaking for himself and not from a pamphlet

 

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