What is the difference between gender and gender norms?

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Ah, OK.

Yes, missed that one because i stopped reading "Trump didn't keep promises every sane person knew he wouldn't keep anyway"- threads.

Maybe i should read it if it moved away from Trump being a liar to actual LGBT topics. Then it might be interesting.

Edit :

What a waste of time. Just talk about some Blair White person and forumites attacking each other agressively. Quite a shitshow but actual LBGT stuff or even opinions about transpeople are not even discussed. Just presummed to attak posters.

Dreiko:
You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

Dreiko:
You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

Dreiko:
The measured traits are whatever traits the person who is undergoing testosterone treatment is aiming to enhance in themselves. Things like deeper voice and facial hair and so on are some of them.

So not measured traits at all then is what you're saying there basically

Palindromemordnilap:

Dreiko:
You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

They never said people should outright ignore how people feel, but to understand why people feel that way.

Dreiko:
You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

A delusional person is not less of a person than a non-delusional person.

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:

Dreiko:
You seem to be conflating how you feel with the reality of your being. You may feel like less of a person when you suffer from these conditions, but you still ARE just as much of a person as you were. How you feel about it doesn't matter. It seems incomprehensible to me that you can't understand that just because you feel like less of a person that doesn't affect anything. A baby can barely do anything for themselves outside of cry for help but they have just as many human rights as a decathlete. If someone does something to you that's legal to do to non-persons but illegal to do to persons, they'll go to jail just as much. Your line of reasoning is what had been used back centuries ago as an excuse to abuse the mentally ill.

Yeah but dude, its your line of reasoning. You're the one saying that we should ignore how people feel and what they think about themselves in order to ignore things you don't understand or find uncomfortable. If even you are saying your logic is outmoded and cruel then why are you still using it?

They never said people should outright ignore how people feel, but to understand why people feel that way.

When you compare trans folk to flat earthers you are calling them delusional. And that would just be the first example I found, how much do you want to bet I can find more if I go through the whole topic?

Abomination:

Dreiko:
You literally can't become different amounts of a person. Nobody can be more of a person and nobody can be less of one for as long as they live.

Unless they do something you don't like in which case they're fair game for you to call them delusional, like you've been doing here

A delusional person is not less of a person than a non-delusional person.

You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

Palindromemordnilap:
You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Basically people can only be called delusional if someone thinks they're less of a person as a sort of masked slight, according to him. Nobody can just be being delusional.

Abomination:

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Perhaps in those exact words. I still consider it pretty dehumanizing to dismiss somebody's sense of self and identity, and insist that you know it better than they do themselves.

And to be clear: that's exactly what those who call trans people "delusional" are doing.

Silvanus:

Abomination:

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Perhaps in those exact words. I still consider it pretty dehumanizing to dismiss somebody's sense of self and identity, and insist that you know it better than they do themselves.

And to be clear: that's exactly what those who call trans people "delusional" are doing.

I'm not calling trans people delusional, I am calling all people who take testosterone and think they became more of a man due to that delusional, based on the reasoning of your gender being about how you identify and not what substances are in your body, which is what trans people themselves claim to be the case.

Trans people who are just trans but don't take testosterone to "become a man" (it's even fine if they take it for a different reason) are not who I'm calling delusional. The delusion that I'm referring to isn't even feeling like you're the other sex, I actually have no idea what to describe that. I just know a chick who feels like she's a dude and takes testosterone is just as much of a man as she was before she took it. I make no determination about how much of a man that is, I'm just saying that thinking the testosterone is making a difference is delusional.

Smithnikov:

Dreiko:

If someone tries to beat me up and tries to kill me, I won't kill them back in return. I'll incapacitate them to a degree where I'm not in danger any longer but I'm not going to go ahead and kill them just because that's what they tried to do to me. To even think of doing that is evil in my eyes.

I work for a school, and we have to undergo active shooter training. Ihe training was administered by two State Troopers, and when asked what would happen if one of staff got the gun away from the shooter and shot him in turn, what would the legal consequences be? The senior Trooper's exact quote was this.

If you shoot the assailant in the head, we'll go to court for you, and we will inform the judge that you were only what law enforcement trained you to do in that situation

Am I evil?

This may be the anti-authoritarian streak in me but I would never allow two "state troopers" to usurp my morality with their protocols. People who just kill others without thought because they were instructed by "experts" that it's the right thing to do are either very weak-willed or are just using that fact as an excuse to abuse power.

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die. I'd also hope you'd realize that there's other people in the school, in other classrooms and in the halls, so there is a high probability you will accidentally shoot a lot of people who are not the shooter, since you're presumably not a sharpshooter and it will be a tense situation with nerves and adrenaline going, making your hands shake and so on. Stray bullets kill just as well as aimed ones.

You will prolly wanna watch him to make sure he isn't pulling out another gun but killing him at that point right after taking his gun seems pretty evil to me, not to mention dumb and reckless.

Dreiko:

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die.

Yeah, a response must be proportionate to the threat. If someone is shooting and an active threat than sure, I don't think anyone will argue the life of the shooter trumps that of his victims. When a shooter is disarmed and no longer an active threat than killing the shooter is just an execution at that point. Sure, you can argue the shooter deserved to die but that is not for law enforcement or some random joe to decide.

stroopwafel:

Dreiko:

Now, I have faith most people are good, so I'm sure if you were in that situation you'd make the biggest of efforts to keep people safe, and that you'd realize that once you took the gun away from the shooter that he can't shoot you with it any more, so he doesn't need to die.

Yeah, a response must be proportionate to the threat. If someone is shooting and an active threat than sure, I don't think anyone will argue the life of the shooter trumps that of his victims. When a shooter is disarmed and no longer an active threat than killing the shooter is just an execution at that point. Sure, you can argue the shooter deserved to die but that is not for law enforcement or some random joe to decide.

Exactly, even the troopers didn't say that the act isn't evil, just that they'd defend it in court because presumably we need to be some amount of evil to survive in the current gun climate according to their training and assessment (definitely don't buy that personally, btw).

The question wasn't if it was justifiable even but whether it's evil or not. I think it's pretty simple when that's what you're asking.

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:
You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Dreiko is saying that if you need testosterone to feel like a man, you are not a man. So his logic is that if you need chemical assistance to feel like a thing, you are not a thing. So therefore it is true, by his reasoning, that if someone needs chemical assistance to feel like a person, they are not a person. I've explained this at least once in this topic dude, maybe try reading the whole thing rather than just jumping in when you think you have a gotcha to hand.

The fact that Dreiko finds this logic fine to use when applied to trans folk but not when applied to the mentally ill is somewhat telling, do you not think?

I am just sick of people who are anti-LGBT being assholes about it. All you have to do is respect other people, thats it, its not as hard as anti-LGBT people make it seem. But its so much easier to get mad at people 'forcing you to call them zhir' than acknowledge the hypocrisy of forcing people to be called he or she when they dont identify that way.

If I called most anti-LGBT people the wrong gender, I bet they would get mad at me for misgendering them. Fuck off with that hypocritic bullshit.

Palindromemordnilap:

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:
You've missed my point. I'm not saying "You think these people are delusional and therefore not people" I'm saying "You think these people are not properly people and therefore calling them delusional"

What?

I am sorry, but your reading comprehension is seriously failing. Nobody has said anything about someone not being "properly people", rather they're insisting that there is nothing that can make a person less than a person.

You're insisting that Dreiko believes trans people are lesser people when they have been explicit about it not being possible to be a lesser person in any way. Or you're insisting that calling someone delusional makes them a lesser person... or whatever. I honestly can't follow because you've made this illogical leap somewhere without following what has been said and arrived at an incorrect conclusion.

I'm mostly baffled.

The only person bringing up the idea that someone is not a proper person... is you.

Dreiko is saying that if you need testosterone to feel like a man, you are not a man. So his logic is that if you need chemical assistance to feel like a thing, you are not a thing. So therefore it is true, by his reasoning, that if someone needs chemical assistance to feel like a person, they are not a person. I've explained this at least once in this topic dude, maybe try reading the whole thing rather than just jumping in when you think you have a gotcha to hand.

The fact that Dreiko finds this logic fine to use when applied to trans folk but not when applied to the mentally ill is somewhat telling, do you not think?

Hold hold hold hold. If you need testosterone to feel like a man it means without testosterone you don't feel like a man, making you a woman. What you're saying undermines the established notion of transgenderism being how you feel innately and that your body is just mismatched and implies that you do feel matched to your body but are somehow desiring for your body and feelings to be different, which is NOT just "naturally" being of one sex trapped in the wrong body.

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

Based on this and on my logic, if someone needs to take testosterone to feel like a man... the correct assessment isn't that they're less of a person but that they're not transgender, they're a woman who wishes she was transgender lol.

If I take LSD and think that I'm a butterfly while high, I am not a butterfly during that period, despite feeling that I am. If you need to take something to feel a certain way that by definition isn't what you are.

Finally, some things are a matter of how you feel about it, other things are a matter of actual facts. Personhood is determined by self-awareness and intelligence, not by the subject's feelings on the matter.

Dreiko:

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

This just all seems so simplistic, so black-and-white. Do you never feel a certain way in some respects and not in others? I do all the time.

For something as complex as gender identity, it seems naive to apply this simplistic binary to it.

Silvanus:

Dreiko:

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

This just all seems so simplistic, so black-and-white. Do you never feel a certain way in some respects and not in others? I do all the time.

For something as complex as gender identity, it seems naive to apply this simplistic binary to it.

Not with regards to foundational aspects that you take for granted to base split second decisions on. I've had long hair for literally all of my adult life so it's not like I'm some weird gender roles enthusiast or traditionalist or what have you. In fact, it's so black and white that I can feel self-confident not following these traditional norms because of how much I have never questioned the fact that I'm a guy lol.

I think trying to add this level of murkiness is fine as long as you don't also desire non-murky reception from others. If you're allowed to be murky about such factors, people's reaction should also be allowed to be as murky and not so very clearly delineated.

I'm fine saying I don't know what the hell something is, I just don't understand why we have to adjust society based on something so ill-defined. You first gotta figure yourself out before you expect others to adapt to you. Having a situation where whatever crazy thing someone says must be taken as gospel so people won't seem some form of phobic is not workable and that creates a lot of the friction we see.

Dreiko:

Not with regards to foundational aspects that you take for granted to base split second decisions on. I've had long hair for literally all of my adult life so it's not like I'm some weird gender roles enthusiast or traditionalist or what have you. In fact, it's so black and white that I can feel self-confident not following these traditional norms because of how much I have never questioned the fact that I'm a guy lol.

Right. Well, that's lucky, and I envy you. I presume you haven't heavily questioned your sexuality, then-- I did for a significant number of years. And, yes, that was not some black-and-white realisation. Describing it as such would be utterly alien to my experience.

But that's a fundamental element of self. Should I assume, then, that you also wouldn't trust my sense of my own sexuality?

Dreiko:

I'm fine saying I don't know what the hell something is, I just don't understand why we have to adjust society based on something so ill-defined. You first gotta figure yourself out before you expect others to adapt to you. Having a situation where whatever crazy thing someone says must be taken as gospel so people won't seem some form of phobic is not workable and that creates a lot of the friction we see.

It's not "whatever crazy thing", though, is it? You're painting it as if it's something airy-fairy thing that people just randomly decide one day. It's not. It's obviously tremendously personal, often painful, sometimes involving years of soul-searching and reflection.

This is heavy. This is not something people take lightly. This is something people lose their lives over, but that people also feel is so important to their sense of self that they risk those dangers.

The way you're describing it indicates, to me, that you fundamentally don't really have much interest in treating it respectfully. If you did, you wouldn't be so flippant and dismissive.

Nobody is asking much from society, no drastic restructuring. Just fairly basic human decency.

Silvanus:

Dreiko:

Not with regards to foundational aspects that you take for granted to base split second decisions on. I've had long hair for literally all of my adult life so it's not like I'm some weird gender roles enthusiast or traditionalist or what have you. In fact, it's so black and white that I can feel self-confident not following these traditional norms because of how much I have never questioned the fact that I'm a guy lol.

Right. Well, that's lucky, and I envy you. I presume you haven't heavily questioned your sexuality, then-- I did for a significant number of years. And, yes, that was not some black-and-white realisation. Describing it as such would be utterly alien to my experience.

But that's a fundamental element of self. Should I assume, then, that you also wouldn't trust my sense of my own sexuality?

Dreiko:

I'm fine saying I don't know what the hell something is, I just don't understand why we have to adjust society based on something so ill-defined. You first gotta figure yourself out before you expect others to adapt to you. Having a situation where whatever crazy thing someone says must be taken as gospel so people won't seem some form of phobic is not workable and that creates a lot of the friction we see.

It's not "whatever crazy thing", though, is it? You're painting it as if it's something airy-fairy thing that people just randomly decide one day. It's not. It's obviously tremendously personal, often painful, sometimes involving years of soul-searching and reflection.

This is heavy. This is not something people take lightly. This is something people lose their lives over, but that people also feel is so important to their sense of self that they risk those dangers.

The way you're describing it indicates, to me, that you fundamentally don't really have much interest in treating it respectfully. If you did, you wouldn't be so flippant and dismissive.

Nobody is asking much from society, no drastic restructuring. Just fairly basic human decency.

Sexuality is not a binary but rather a spectrum so I don't think what goes for gender also goes for sexuality. But yeah I never even considered questioning it. I have had a pretty healthy interest in the opposite sex from a very young age so the fact that someone would question it and not just know it is inherently odd to me.

You can decide things with all the seriousness but if your decision is something that's as ill-defined and open to your personal interpretation and not universal ideas that society accepts then that decision isn't something that's significant beyond your personal feelings and self-image.

At this point this is more about your personal issues and how you see yourself and what you feel best represented by, it's not something you ought externalize in some fashion, it's not something you should require outsider acceptance of.

I can treat a person respectfully, despite thinking their ideas are silly. I do so with vegans every day of my life. If we all stop pretending this thing is any different than any other odd thing some people are super passionate about acceptance would come quicker.

Dreiko:
Hold hold hold hold. If you need testosterone to feel like a man it means without testosterone you don't feel like a man, making you a woman. What you're saying undermines the established notion of transgenderism being how you feel innately and that your body is just mismatched and implies that you do feel matched to your body but are somehow desiring for your body and feelings to be different, which is NOT just "naturally" being of one sex trapped in the wrong body.

Hey Dreiko if your body feels mismatched and you want to resolve that by making it more like the man you feel you are, what hormone do you think you might take? ;)

Dreiko:

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

So you've never heard of [url="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria"]gender dysphoria then?

Dreiko:

If I take LSD and think that I'm a butterfly while high, I am not a butterfly during that period, despite feeling that I am. If you need to take something to feel a certain way that by definition isn't what you are.

Oh hey, Abomination? This would be another example of Dreiko conflating being trans with being deluded. Since you were quite keen to call me out on at but seem to have missed it all the times he's done it

Palindromemordnilap:
Oh hey, Abomination? This would be another example of Dreiko conflating being trans with being deluded. Since you were quite keen to call me out on at but seem to have missed it all the times he?s done it

I never argued from a stance of deluded or not, I argued that one is not more or less of a person because of any circumstance relating to gender identity or mental perception.

You were arguing that opinions between someone being deluded or having a different a gender identity to their sex conflated to that person also believing those individuals showing those symptoms were less of a person for having those symptoms. Nobody in this thread has ever hinted at someone being more or less of a person in regard to these topics other than yourself.

Palindromemordnilap:

Dreiko:
Hold hold hold hold. If you need testosterone to feel like a man it means without testosterone you don't feel like a man, making you a woman. What you're saying undermines the established notion of transgenderism being how you feel innately and that your body is just mismatched and implies that you do feel matched to your body but are somehow desiring for your body and feelings to be different, which is NOT just "naturally" being of one sex trapped in the wrong body.

Hey Dreiko if your body feels mismatched and you want to resolve that by making it more like the man you feel you are, what hormone do you think you might take? ;)

Dreiko:

If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

So you?ve never heard of [url=?https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria?]gender dysphoria then?

Dreiko:

If I take LSD and think that I'm a butterfly while high, I am not a butterfly during that period, despite feeling that I am. If you need to take something to feel a certain way that by definition isn't what you are.

Oh hey, Abomination? This would be another example of Dreiko conflating being trans with being deluded. Since you were quite keen to call me out on at but seem to have missed it all the times he?s done it

You are kinda talking out of both ends of your mouth. On one moment you bring up a link to a mental illness and the next you berate me for ascribing something a different sort of mental illness. Also, trans people don't take testosterone to feel trans, so it's completely unlike the example of me believing I'm a butterfly cause I took LSD. Your wording implies that trans people only feel like the other sex when medicated, which I don't think you're trying to imply.

Anyhow, the presumption that you'd "take" anything to achieve being more like how you feel you are is wrong. What you'd wanna work on is your attitude and personality. Those sorts of things matter more than your physical makeup. Some things are not solved the same way a cold is solved. There's no magic pill for everything out there.

Dreiko:

Sexuality is not a binary but rather a spectrum so I don't think what goes for gender also goes for sexuality. But yeah I never even considered questioning it. I have had a pretty healthy interest in the opposite sex from a very young age so the fact that someone would question it and not just know it is inherently odd to me.

Well, that's the reality of it: it's not always a straightforward realisation.

Plus, the past few decades of research have gone some way towards moving away from an absolute gender binary, too.

You can decide things with all the seriousness but if your decision is something that's as ill-defined and open to your personal interpretation and not universal ideas that society accepts then that decision isn't something that's significant beyond your personal feelings and self-image.

I don't see a single reason societal norms should be the determining factor; they're changeable.

The individual in question is the one with the only relevant experience in this case. If we're to look elsewhere for supportive evidence, look to psychology and biochemistry (both of which provide ample evidence), not ultimately meaningless societal norms.

I can treat a person respectfully, despite thinking their ideas are silly. I do so with vegans every day of my life. If we all stop pretending this thing is any different than any other odd thing some people are super passionate about acceptance would come quicker.

This is just straightforward dismissiveness.

Silvanus:

Dreiko:

Sexuality is not a binary but rather a spectrum so I don't think what goes for gender also goes for sexuality. But yeah I never even considered questioning it. I have had a pretty healthy interest in the opposite sex from a very young age so the fact that someone would question it and not just know it is inherently odd to me.

Well, that's the reality of it: it's not always a straightforward realisation.

Plus, the past few decades of research have gone some way towards moving away from an absolute gender binary, too.

You can decide things with all the seriousness but if your decision is something that's as ill-defined and open to your personal interpretation and not universal ideas that society accepts then that decision isn't something that's significant beyond your personal feelings and self-image.

I don't see a single reason societal norms should be the determining factor; they're changeable.

The individual in question is the one with the only relevant experience in this case. If we're to look elsewhere for supportive evidence, look to psychology and biochemistry (both of which provide ample evidence), not ultimately meaningless societal norms.

I can treat a person respectfully, despite thinking their ideas are silly. I do so with vegans every day of my life. If we all stop pretending this thing is any different than any other odd thing some people are super passionate about acceptance would come quicker.

This is just straightforward dismissiveness.

There's no absolute or non-absolute, that's just trying to muddy the waters. There's hermaphrodites and other exceptions but the binary is the binary and only quacks with a personal dog in the fight are moving away from the gender binary.

The determining factor for how society treats something is societal norms which are informed by the sciences but what you're fighting for here isn't the medical right to undertake a procedure or its medical legitimacy but rather societal acceptance of it. Such a thing doesn't get achieved with the same factors that scientifically deciding someone for example can be ethically euthanized is. Science can determine something one way but society can still deem that wrong for some moral reason that's more about the character of the society. Hence, when you wanna address society, societal norms are gonna be relevant.

It's not dismissive to treat you like any other quirky unusual person with their specific weirdness that I can't understand. Most of the people I love would fit that description. You're either weird or boring in this life.

Abomination:
I never argued from a stance of deluded or not, I argued that one is not more or less of a person because of any circumstance relating to gender identity or mental perception.

You were arguing that opinions between someone being deluded or having a different a gender identity to their sex conflated to that person also believing those individuals showing those symptoms were less of a person for having those symptoms. Nobody in this thread has ever hinted at someone being more or less of a person in regard to these topics other than yourself.

When I merely brought up mental health, you jumped on me as though I were directly comparing being trans with mental illness. When Dreiko does compare being trans with delusions or hallucinations, you are silent. I am asking you to recognise this hypocrisy

Dreiko:

You are kinda talking out of both ends of your mouth. On one moment you bring up a link to a mental illness and the next you berate me for ascribing something a different sort of mental illness. Also, trans people don't take testosterone to feel trans, so it's completely unlike the example of me believing I'm a butterfly cause I took LSD. Your wording implies that trans people only feel like the other sex when medicated, which I don't think you're trying to imply.

See above statement to Abomination. I bring up mental illness as the extension of your own logic. If you said you hated seafood I would assume that meant you hated crab. Doesn't mean I'm calling all seafood crab.
You however are directly comparing delusions and drug induced hallucinations to being trans. Which is like saying you don't like trout because you also don't like crab. It's just ridiculous and shows the gaps in your knowledge

Dreiko:
Anyhow, the presumption that you'd "take" anything to achieve being more like how you feel you are is wrong. What you'd wanna work on is your attitude and personality. Those sorts of things matter more than your physical makeup. Some things are not solved the same way a cold is solved. There's no magic pill for everything out there.

I mean there no magic pill for a cold either but we still treat it with what medication we can to help, so that was kind of a poor example you went for

Palindromemordnilap:
When I merely brought up mental health, you jumped on me as though I were directly comparing being trans with mental illness. When Dreiko does compare being trans with delusions or hallucinations, you are silent. I am asking you to recognise this hypocrisy.

Go back and reread what I typed.

I only ever tackled the concept of personhood being denied or removed.

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:
When I merely brought up mental health, you jumped on me as though I were directly comparing being trans with mental illness. When Dreiko does compare being trans with delusions or hallucinations, you are silent. I am asking you to recognise this hypocrisy.

Go back and reread what I typed.

I only ever tackled the concept of personhood being denied or removed.

Take your own advice and go back and read my post. I never mention the personhood this time round. You brought that back up. I pointed out that you have tried criticising me for conflating transgenderism with mental illness when I was not, but have remained silent when Dreiko does exactly that. Makes your motives look kind of suspect really

Palindromemordnilap:

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:
When I merely brought up mental health, you jumped on me as though I were directly comparing being trans with mental illness. When Dreiko does compare being trans with delusions or hallucinations, you are silent. I am asking you to recognise this hypocrisy.

Go back and reread what I typed.

I only ever tackled the concept of personhood being denied or removed.

Take your own advice and go back and read my post. I never mention the personhood this time round. You brought that back up. I pointed out that you have tried criticising me for conflating transgenderism with mental illness when I was not, but have remained silent when Dreiko does exactly that. Makes your motives look kind of suspect really

Again, I have only discussed the removal of personhood.

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:

Abomination:
Go back and reread what I typed.

I only ever tackled the concept of personhood being denied or removed.

Take your own advice and go back and read my post. I never mention the personhood this time round. You brought that back up. I pointed out that you have tried criticising me for conflating transgenderism with mental illness when I was not, but have remained silent when Dreiko does exactly that. Makes your motives look kind of suspect really

Again, I have only discussed the removal of personhood.

Rrrrright so I clearly explain thats not relevant and not what I'm talking about and your response is...to try and bring it up again. Obvious attempt at deflection is obvious

Palindromemordnilap:

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:

Take your own advice and go back and read my post. I never mention the personhood this time round. You brought that back up. I pointed out that you have tried criticising me for conflating transgenderism with mental illness when I was not, but have remained silent when Dreiko does exactly that. Makes your motives look kind of suspect really

Again, I have only discussed the removal of personhood.

Rrrrright so I clearly explain thats not relevant and not what I'm talking about and your response is...to try and bring it up again. Obvious attempt at deflection is obvious

I have only ever broached the subject of personhood in this thread and the inability for one to lose it and that nobody has claimed anyone else has lost it due to mental, physical, or chemical based perception or affliction.

If you are attempting to discuss any other topic with me you are directing an argument at a non-participant in that line of discussion.

My two cents:

If you were born male, your DNA has a Y and X chromosome, your bone and the vast majority of your body structure is unalterably conformed to that of a male, your brain was built by your genetics to that of a male, and you spent however much of your life living as a male does with all the benefits, drawbacks, and experiencing all the prejudices positive and negative that comes with it. This is a matter of objective fact and would remain fact even if your parents transitioned you as close to your birth as physically possible. On the mental side of things being male is not only the combination of countless genetic factors but experiences and how having those genetic factors effected those experiences. One who has been born female will react and act differently if even only slightly to the exact same situation than they would if you changed absolutely nothing else about their lives except that they were born male.

Anyone if they want can do all the surgeries to change their sexual organs and whatever else about themselves and take all the estrogen/testosterone in the world, that's fine, whatever makes you happy. No one who does this is delusional or anything else negative for thinking that they should do that, it's nothing more than a life choice. It's also not a mental illness or a disorder or anything else, nor is it controllable any more than any other thoughts or feelings are controllable.

However, nothing will ever alter the fact that if you were born a male, you'll live as a male, and you'll die a male, and no amount of medical science will ever change this. Hell, if they went and managed something straight out of sci-fi someday and gave you the ability to transform everything including your DNA and everything that comes with it to that of a female you'd still be male in the end. If you are someone who is born male who chooses to transition yourself you will never be a female and you definitely will never really know what it's like to be a female any more than any other male does. It's the exact same way for women who transition over to being "male".

As for gender norms, that's an entirely different issue. You can take any given society's typical view of how males and females should look, talk, act, and how other people should treat each and not only find exceptions but those who are actively defying those views. Chances are you can take the gender norms of any society and find some other society somewhere that has flipped the male and female roles around so that they are the opposite of the former. A male doing anything and even everything their society's gender norms have decided a female is does not make that male a female. Gender norms are the result of decades, centuries, even millennia of various actions and reactions forging the widespread notion into a society that males and females should be a certain way regardless of how much or how little either gender conforms to those roles.

immortalfrieza:
*snip*

If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to be saying that being a male is (at least in part) due to experiencing s society in which you are considered a male. While there's certainly truth in that, it's not like there's some universal set of experiences that makes you male, even amongst people otherwise in the same demographic. Any number of males might not have had to deal with any number of stereotypical male issues, that doesn't mean they aren't males.

immortalfrieza:
My two cents:

If you were born male, your DNA has a Y and X chromosome, your bone and the vast majority of your body structure is unalterably conformed to that of a male, your brain was built by your genetics to that of a male, and you spent however much of your life living as a male does with all the benefits, drawbacks, and experiencing all the prejudices positive and negative that comes with it. This is a matter of objective fact [...]

No, lots of this is objectively untrue. People exist without the typical X and Y chromosome structure who are in all other respects biologically male; people exist who have Male chromosomes but who do not have male body morphology from birth; and people exist with brain structures which more closely resemble that of the opposite sex.

Wow, this thread got kinda shitty, huh..

Dreiko:
If you're trans, that by definition means you ALREADY feel like you're a man. So you don't need any help feeling like one.

There is a really obvious difference between identity as a mental construct and identity as part of the relationship between individual and society.

It's also important to remember that identity is socialised. You didn't spontaneously come to the conclusion that you were male. You were born with a male body, and because of that you will have been treated as male. The reason some trans people choose to take hormones is because, like it or not, bodies still signify something in this society.

Yes, being trans is defined by interior identity, but if your physical presentation doesn't match your mental self-image you will be perceived differently, and because you have to live in a society that might also affect how you perceive yourself.

If gender identity was so fickle and transient that it required a constant, proactive "feeling", we wouldn't be talking about it.

Dreiko:
There's no absolute or non-absolute, that's just trying to muddy the waters. There's hermaphrodites and other exceptions but the binary is the binary and only quacks with a personal dog in the fight are moving away from the gender binary.

I feel like you overplayed your hand a bit there.

On one hand, you seem to be arguing that gender identity is pure feeling and that any efforts made to confirm gender identity is a sign of delusion. Yet here, you're arguing that despite being pure feeling, gender identity has to fit (what you see as) a sexual binary. Which is it?

Also, human genitals are composed of homologous structures, meaning there are no human hermaphrodites. Intersexed and androgynous people were historically exhibited in freakshows as "hermaphrodites", but that's not a history you want to be referencing, and it's also completely unscientific.

Mainstream psychology almost universally accepts the existence and validity of non-binary gender identities. Being non-binary has absolutely nothing to do with being intersexed, and most intersexed people identify as either male or female.

immortalfrieza:
If you were born male, your DNA has a Y and X chromosome, your bone and the vast majority of your body structure is unalterably conformed to that of a male, your brain was built by your genetics to that of a male, and you spent however much of your life living as a male does with all the benefits, drawbacks, and experiencing all the prejudices positive and negative that comes with it.

I do not understand the desperate obsession cis people have with chromosomes.

Chromosomes are the macro-structure of DNA. The shape of your chromosome does not inherently mean anything. The only reason the Y chromosome ever mattered in sex determination is because it usually (but not always) houses the SRY gene. The SRY gene usually (but not always) determines whether your gonads will develop into testes. It determines literally nothing else.

We don't use karyotype testing for sex determination any more, because it's hugely less accurate than a medical examination. The correct way to determine sex is to view it as the end result of a complex biological process which can have countless outcomes and which is overwhelmingly driven by hormones. It's certainly not some kind of mystical destiny prescribed by the sacred chromosome.

Oh, and don't get me started on the weird implication that all men and women have a universal experience.. instead, let's cut straight to the elephant in the room. Noone knows for sure what creates gender identity, but it is likely to be a combination of genetic and hormonal factors and early life experiences. Anything which could you claim creates a "natural" difference between men and women could also be argued to differentiate cis and trans people with the same ASAB.

immortalfrieza:
One who has been born female will react and act differently if even only slightly to the exact same situation than they would if you changed absolutely nothing else about their lives except that they were born male.

How would they react differently?

See, this is a crappy truism. If you change anything about a person's life or upbringing, they might react differently. A person who was raised in poverty will have different responses to the same situation than someone who was raised with wealth. This doesn't mean there is an unbreakable natural difference between rich and poor people. It doesn't mean every rich person and every poor person will react the same to the same situation.

Yes, trans people have different life experiences to cis people. So what? What does that mean? What is the importance? Why does it matter?

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:

Abomination:
Again, I have only discussed the removal of personhood.

Rrrrright so I clearly explain thats not relevant and not what I'm talking about and your response is...to try and bring it up again. Obvious attempt at deflection is obvious

I have only ever broached the subject of personhood in this thread and the inability for one to lose it and that nobody has claimed anyone else has lost it due to mental, physical, or chemical based perception or affliction.

If you are attempting to discuss any other topic with me you are directing an argument at a non-participant in that line of discussion.

Well thats not true is it?

Abomination:

Palindromemordnilap:
Cool, but not really the parameters of what we were talking about. Do you think someone taking drugs to help deal with their depression is somehow less of a person?

This assumes we accept, in the analogy you are drawing, that being trans is a state of depression or mental sickness.

That would be you telling me I'm conflating being trans with mental sickness. Something I was not doing, not even close. And yet when Dreiko actually does it, you have no words for him, do you? Might want to think about what your motives really are here dude

Palindromemordnilap:
That would be you telling me I'm conflating being trans with mental sickness. Something I was not doing, not even close. And yet when Dreiko actually does it, you have no words for him, do you? Might want to think about what your motives really are here dude

Context of the discussion was people being able to lose their personhood or not being considered a person, specifically in relation to being trans. You segued into depression in the conversation as though the two were linked with your analogy. For it to be relevant to the conversation it required that depression and being trans are intertwined.

Remember, its the personhood aspect that you are suggesting can be impacted by what is being discussed. That is being refuted here.

Thaluikhain:

immortalfrieza:
*snip*

If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to be saying that being a male is (at least in part) due to experiencing s society in which you are considered a male. While there's certainly truth in that, it's not like there's some universal set of experiences that makes you male, even amongst people otherwise in the same demographic. Any number of males might not have had to deal with any number of stereotypical male issues, that doesn't mean they aren't males.

Not exactly. Experiences are determined by gender in either direction, they don't define it, they're the result of it. Gender is an intrinsic and unchangeable quality inherent to one's very being determined by countless millennia of natural selection. One's entire body and brain itself have been shaped by to be in very specific ways for a male and very specific ways for a female and vice versa. There are very rare exceptions to this such as hermaphroditism, but they are both very extreme outliers and are in their own separate categories entirely from male or female, ones they cannot change any more than males or females can.

Imagine for a moment that we've got two parallel universes with two counterparts of the same 18 year old (any age would be relevant but for the sake of simplicity) person who have nothing different about them at all except for one thing. They have the same living, working, and schooling environment, the same friends, enemies, and general people they've encountered, their society even tells them both in every way overtly and subtly that they are female. The only difference either of them has is that one has been born a male and one has been born a female. They were going to have vastly different lives despite identical experiences and opportunities just by virtue of what gender they happen to be born as, even if they subsequently transition to the other gender at the same point. They also will react to those experiences and opportunities and think of them in ways the other will not, even if the differences are very very slight ones.

The male down to his skeleton might be built to be good at basketball because of his greater height than the other while the female might be built to be good at soccer and thus pursue those sports as a result. The female might end up with an IQ of 180 and become a scientist while the male might end up with an IQ of 156 and becomes a businessman. The female might become bulimic for a year and be hardly effected while the male might do so and die... it never ends.

For clarity, the last paragraph is referencing research showing the men are on average taller than women, women on average have higher IQs than men, (that one has gone back and forth over the years) and bulimic men die significantly more often from the condition than bulimic women do. All of this may be proven wrong at some point or a shift may make it no longer true, but for now it's something specific about either gender to reference.

TLDR: The point here is that gender goes way WAY deeper than hormones or sexual organs, it determines literally everything about a person. A person can even inherently want to become the other gender and make physical changes to accommodate that, but in the end they have so many things both microscopic and large that the gender they have been born as have effected about them that makes their minds and bodies are different in a myriad of ways from how it would have been had they been born the other gender in the first place.

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