Why are people so dumb about veganism?

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I don't have too many strong thoughts on vegans, though I can find them somewhat harder to socialize with. Simply because food/meals for me anyway, is one of the bigger avenues of what little socialization I partake in. Especially with coworkers, and I'm at the age where most social interactions are going to be at work. Vegan food here can be hard to find and/or expensive unless you make your own food. I can't be arsed to make my own lunch to bring in at work, and I'm not willing to spend more on my food on a daily basis. So I'm not going to be making many vegan/vegetarian friends just cause our lifestyles don't mesh.

It does annoy me however, when people try to push it on me. Though this goes for anything, not just vegans. Be it religion or multi-level marketing nonsense. Especially annoys me when they bring it up a lot and adopt a whole holier than thou attitude.

And there's been instances of vegans attacking farmers, freeing livestock and other sorts of nonsense. Granted these are a small mental minority who would've been doing something retarded even if they weren't vegans. It's not solely a vegan thing nor are all vegans like it, put people who use their lifestyle choices as an excuse to be complete dickheads are highly unpleasant.

There are also random idiots who temporarily adopt it cause they think it is intrinsically 'healthier'. And I wish people wouldn't spread this nonsense. You can be a vegan and still be hella unhealthy, and if anything if you don't pay proper attention to your diet cause you think it's 'healthier' - you're going to end up in a bad spot.

But basically, I'm gonna do what I want, you do what you want and if we don't get in each other's ways - then there isn't a problem.

votemarvel:
The thing that annoys me about most vegans is they don't think on what happens when everyone is vegan. Do they think those dairy cows are going to be kept or do they actually realise that they'll all be slaughtered.

I mean or third option we wind down the dairy industry gradually, stop breeding dairy cows and let production cease over a period of years if not decades.

What about the rare breeds that are farmed only because people want to eat them, those now go extinct.

Personally if it were up to me and my choices were "my species goes extinct" or "my species exists in captivity solely to eventually be killed and eaten" I'd probably go for door number 1.

Sheep will also essentially go extinct too because we've breed them to the point they can't naturally shed their wool.

Most vegans seem to have the silly notion that all the farm animals are all going to be running wild in paradise. That or the ones I encounter are just idiots.

How many vegans are actually saying we just need to jam on the breaks and 100% let animals do their own thing. I mean we're conserving pandas, a species too dumb and lazy to fuck, I'm sure we can save the sheep.

I love eggs and milk, don't plan on going vegan any time soon but I think you're largely going after strawmen here.

The thing that irritates me now is "plant based diet". You're a vegan, just because it hurts your fragile masculinity to admit it if you don't eat animal or animal biproducts you're a vegan. Just admit it. Or at the very least never ever say you have a plant based diet and also give out about identity politics or PC gone mad because you're literally choosing to call yourself something else because you don't like the word for the thing you are.

votemarvel:
The thing that annoys me about most vegans is they don't think on what happens when everyone is vegan. Do they think those dairy cows are going to be kept or do they actually realise that they'll all be slaughtered.

Oh no! You mean the cows that are kept in pens barely large enough for their bodies, are forcefully impregnated over and over again only to have their calves taken away at birth and are typically slaughtered at four years old to make dog food might have to be slaughtered!

I think it's interesting that you project this problem onto vegans. Cows live 20 years and eat grass. If cows were being kept in reasonable numbers and concentrations, it would be pretty trivial to just let them live out the rest of their lives and simply to ensure that the population declines naturally to sustainable levels. After all, in this hypothetical vegan utopia some people will still want to keep domestic animals as pets or out of appreciation, and groups that object to that (like PETA) typically have no problem with euthanizing animals.

But that's not the case, because agriculture is run on industrial lines to create the maximum concentration of animals whatever the cost in terms of cruelty. So yes, there are far more dairy cows than it would ever possible to provide a good standard of living for, but that's because the farming industry (and by extension, consumers) are perfectly happy to provide animals with a bad standard of living to facilitate reduced costs and increased production.

Calling vegans out for not having a solution for a problem created by intensive agriculture strikes me as a little hypocritical.

Wings012:
people who use their lifestyle choices as an excuse to be complete dickheads are highly unpleasant.

Agreed, people taking fewer flights would definitely be better for the world.

CheetoDust:

The thing that irritates me now is "plant based diet". You're a vegan, just because it hurts your fragile masculinity to admit it if you don't eat animal or animal biproducts you're a vegan. Just admit it. Or at the very least never ever say you have a plant based diet and also give out about identity politics or PC gone mad because you're literally choosing to call yourself something else because you don't like the word for the thing you are.

How it could be interpreted is that while the person's main diet is "plant based", they don't give a shit about its "purity" like vegans do. Somebody eating plant-based might eat an omnivore's meal every fortnight, for example, or "cheat" at a party. With that said people definitely use it in the way you describe also.

I might be misinformed, but I've read that of a few places which have introduced plant-based alternatives with tag lines like "impossible" meat, it's actually worse for you than the meat it's trying to replace due to the extra processing involved to get it there.

Having said that, I've tried a couple of them and they're rather tasty.

McElroy:
How it could be interpreted is that while the person's main diet is "plant based", they don't give a shit about its "purity" like vegans do.

Do they? Of the vegans I know, one or two occasionally "cheat", and the only condemnation I've seen is from meat-eaters calling them hypocrites as if it's any of their business.

hanselthecaretaker:
I might be misinformed, but I've read that of a few places which have introduced plant-based alternatives with tag lines like "impossible" meat, it's actually worse for you than the meat it's trying to replace due to the extra processing involved to get it there.

They tend to be quite high in salt. I wouldn't say that, for example, vegetarian sausages are going to be worse than meat sausages, because meat sausages are made up of the shit they scrape off the floor and need to disguise as food.

Unprocessed meat isn't necessarily unhealthy (AFAIK), but I don't think health reasons are really why most people who abstain from meat eating do so.

Silvanus:

McElroy:
How it could be interpreted is that while the person's main diet is "plant based", they don't give a shit about its "purity" like vegans do.

Do they? Of the vegans I know, one or two occasionally "cheat", and the only condemnation I've seen is from meat-eaters calling them hypocrites as if it's any of their business.

The vegans I know definitely care about it. Being "normally vegetarian" and then occasionally having meat is more common while vegans are usually committed.

I'm someone who grew up on and around farms, raised animals for slaughter, did my time in 4H and the FFA, hunted, and the like. The only thing about veganism that annoys me is when one runs into some evangelist idiot -- generally an urban/suburban/coastie type -- who talks a big game and speaks in these sweeping, absolutist ideas, universal truths, and maxima...but really don't know shit from shinola about agriculture and food production, and wouldn't be arsed to listen, learn, or even consider the notion they may not know absolutely everything there is to know, even if you held a gun to their head.

No, cupcake, you don't know everything there is to know, and I don't want to hear a word about harm elimination until you've seen for yourself what happens when Bambi or Thumper get caught in a combine harvester. Let alone if you're the type to care oh so much about animals, but when it comes to widespread and endemic mistreatment of humans in the agriculture industry, fuck 'em and anyone who says otherwise is racism doubleplus.

Eacaraxe:

No, cupcake, you don't know everything there is to know, and I don't want to hear a word about harm elimination until you've seen for yourself what happens when Bambi or Thumper get caught in a combine harvester.

Wait, why wouldn't vegans care about that?

Silvanus:
Wait, why wouldn't vegans care about that?

I'm sure most would. There's certainly room there for conversation about models of harm reduction versus harm elimination, the ethics of harm as direct consequence versus indirect, and preference versus utility and necessity.

That is, if most vegans were so equipped to have that conversation, had put real thought into their own positions and the implications thereof, and were aware they're neither omniscient nor the bearers of absolute truth on relevant topics. In my experience, most aren't by a long shot, and are dangerously under-informed on salient issues, in some cases to the point of supporting policy positions that are dramatically more harmful than even the status quo.

evilthecat:
It's entirely up to you what you draw from that. I'm not presupposing any kind of outcome. But I really hate these pseudo-dominionist arguments about the natural order of humans and animals. We are not special, as animals go. We were not made in the image of God on the 6th day and granted special divine dispensation to eat everything made on the 4th and 5th day. We evolved from apes who ate whatever they could find and lived in fear of being eaten themselves. We don't have to stay apes forever if we don't want to.

What's the matter with being an ape?

Reading over that, I couldn't help but think, "Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit!"

evilthecat:

Seanchaidh:
This is very true. Ultimately, animal rights are a matter of arbitrary human sympathy. When it comes to human beings, the capacity for both solidarity and for fighting back is far more salient.

Sure I guess, but humans are also pretty objectively terrible at solidarity. Often, human rights also come down to a matter of arbitrary sympathy, which is why marginalised groups are constantly required to make themselves amenable to their oppressors in the hopes of eliciting sympathy.

If solidarity only comes with the explicit expectation that entering into solidarity will benefit you down the line, then it's pretty useless.

Well yes, humans have been pretty objectively terrible at organizing themselves in ways that do not shock the conscience.

Eacaraxe:

That is, if most vegans were so equipped to have that conversation, had put real thought into their own positions and the implications thereof, and were aware they're neither omniscient nor the bearers of absolute truth on relevant topics. In my experience, most aren't by a long shot, and are dangerously under-informed on salient issues, in some cases to the point of supporting policy positions that are dramatically more harmful than even the status quo.

Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

My only problem with veganism is that it feels like an inadequate solution to complex problems. Like... everyone not eating meat isn't going to stop deforestation, since the land-owners will just sell it to someone else. Faux furs and leathers are just plastic, with all the environmental problems that entails through their production and consumption. Refusal to support ANY kind of animal product can negatively impact native groups who have been sustainably hunting for thousands of years and sell meat/leather/bone to survive. Crops, particularly imported ones, can be grown in unsanitary conditions or through slave labour, while 'ethical' sources can be hard to come by or too expensive. The rise in demand for a vegan alternative can cause serious damage to plants/animals dependent on that alternative through over-farming. Common misinformation can prevent people from supporting actual ethical products or alternatives, as seen with the - weirdly heated - debate among vegan groups around Honey.

And that's only a handful of the issues. Now, I have nothing against vegans - and indeed, strongly believe that everyone should be more conscious of what they consume and where it came from - but I myself just can't support it due to the flaws it has. As a dietary philosophy, it feels like it's too focused on addressing the symptoms rather than the cause, and all the talking up of it as being 'ethical' consumption just obfuscates the issue. As I've told my vegan friends, 'just because it's vegan, doesn't mean it's ethical'.

...I mean, look at Skittles. They're vegan, but I'm pretty sure the Mars company hasn't been classified as an 'ethical' corporation since the child slave labour and deforestation accusations.

Wrex Brogan:
My only problem with veganism is that it feels like an inadequate solution to complex problems. Like... everyone not eating meat isn't going to stop deforestation, since the land-owners will just sell it to someone else.

Who on earth believes it would stop deforestation? It would decrease demand, and thus lessen it. It's not a valid criticism to say this one approach wouldn't entirely 100% fix the problem, even though it would help.

Faux furs and leathers are just plastic, with all the environmental problems that entails through their production and consumption.

So buy from ethical manufacturers or ones with low impact. Such things exist. This is no reason whatsoever to default to leather & fur; it's just a reason to avoid environmentally-damaging industries.

Refusal to support ANY kind of animal product can negatively impact native groups who have been sustainably hunting for thousands of years and sell meat/leather/bone to survive.

Uhrm, these communities are not the main beneficiaries of the meat industry. The meat industry could reduce in size by 99% and these communities would be unaffected.

Crops, particularly imported ones, can be grown in unsanitary conditions or through slave labour, while 'ethical' sources can be hard to come by or too expensive. The rise in demand for a vegan alternative can cause serious damage to plants/animals dependent on that alternative through over-farming. Common misinformation can prevent people from supporting actual ethical products or alternatives, as seen with the - weirdly heated - debate among vegan groups around Honey.

So do your research and choose the alternatives better. This is just a reason to avoid unethical business/ industrial practices, and that reason applies whether or not you eat meat. This does not constitute a reason to eat meat.

And that's only a handful of the issues. Now, I have nothing against vegans - and indeed, strongly believe that everyone should be more conscious of what they consume and where it came from - but I myself just can't support it due to the flaws it has. As a dietary philosophy, it feels like it's too focused on addressing the symptoms rather than the cause, and all the talking up of it as being 'ethical' consumption just obfuscates the issue. As I've told my vegan friends, 'just because it's vegan, doesn't mean it's ethical'.

...I mean, look at Skittles. They're vegan, but I'm pretty sure the Mars company hasn't been classified as an 'ethical' corporation since the child slave labour and deforestation accusations.

I'm sorry, but this is a really poor rationale. Obviously something being vegan doesn't automatically mean its ethical in other respects-- why would it? We don't expect that of any other ethical position! Someone not being a murderer doesn't mean they're ethical, either, but that's no reason to give up on avoiding murder!

Nothing you've put forward is actually a flaw in veganism, or a reason to eat meat. These are merely reasons to approach other aspects of industry with ethical decision-making as well.

Why on earth would you let the existence of other ethical issues convince you not to address a specific one!? Hell, if a company doesn't take part in slave labour, that doesn't mean they're all-round ethical, either! Does that constitute a "flaw" in the position of avoiding slave-labour? Obviously not!

Baffle2:

hanselthecaretaker:
I might be misinformed, but I've read that of a few places which have introduced plant-based alternatives with tag lines like "impossible" meat, it's actually worse for you than the meat it's trying to replace due to the extra processing involved to get it there.

They tend to be quite high in salt. I wouldn't say that, for example, vegetarian sausages are going to be worse than meat sausages, because meat sausages are made up of the shit they scrape off the floor and need to disguise as food.

Unprocessed meat isn't necessarily unhealthy (AFAIK), but I don't think health reasons are really why most people who abstain from meat eating do so.

Some food for thought on it but yeah, basically it's a matter of what's more important basis to the individual: environmental health or their own. Also the plant based "meat" isn't just meant as a "sausage" substitute; AFAIK it's basically an alternative to any meat product which would include hamburger, steak, chicken, etc.

Silvanus:
Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either. Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed. The awareness level of most vegans I engage, begins and ends with topical understanding of factory farming, animal testing, overfishing, poaching, pesticides, GMO's, practices like gavage, and other high-profile issues. Key terms, "topical" and "high profile".

i think vegans just get a bad rep because the hard core ones do stupid shit like call milk "cow lactations" then wonder why we dont suddenly jump on board.

Theres a vegan guy i tease in work, but only in fun. good on you if you have the will power

Eacaraxe:

Silvanus:
Do you reckon they're particularly worse informed than your average meat-eater? Most people of any dietary persuasion I know don't know much about harm-reduction and the impact of agricultural policy.

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either.

And the average vegan is? Or is it just the assholes.

Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed..

I have to disagree there. Since going vegetarian I've been lectured by a bunch of people on things like protein and iron, ironically from people who are overweight and inactive with terrible diets just trying to justify their 2-3 servings of meat a day. While I actually track my micro and macro nutrients and calories and am very active. I think most vegetarians or vegans I know have been lectured at least once. Usually just by someone who noticed them not eating meat. If you think meat eaters can't be smug you're very mistaken.

Eacaraxe:

No, but your average meat-eater isn't upholding themselves to be more educated, enlightened, evolved, or morally superior to others, either. Nor, apt to lecture others on topics on which they are, more often than not, inadequately informed, or straight-up misinformed.

Right, so this boils down to stereotyping again, then.

I'd also comment on the lack of self-awareness required to boorishly lecture others about their dietary decisions in one post, and then excoriate others for boorishly lecturing people in the next post.

@Silvanus - Quotes are borked for me, because the forums Just Plain Work.

Who on earth believes it would stop deforestation? It would decrease demand, and thus lessen it. It's not a valid criticism to say this one approach wouldn't entirely 100% fix the problem, even though it would help.

...Obviously not you, but hey, you're not all vegans? unless you are all vegans, in which case, tell Steven I still don't like Tofu and no matter how hard he tries I never will

And who says it'd help?

So buy from ethical manufacturers or ones with low impact. Such things exist. This is no reason whatsoever to default to leather & fur; it's just a reason to avoid environmentally-damaging industries.

...I mean, if we're looking long-term, real fur/leather is the best choice, since it's highly durable, has low impact, doesn't release microplastics into the environment, is biodegradable so easily disposed of...

But, maybe it's just me. Never been a fan of trying to find alternatives to a proven method when even the best alternatives have problems. Just avoid leather/fur, real or faux if you need to. It's only fashion.

Uhrm, these communities are not the main beneficiaries of the meat industry. The meat industry could reduce in size by 99% and these communities would be unaffected.

Man, it's almost like I was being VERY SPECIFIC there or something, and wasn't talking about the meat industry as a whole!

So do your research and choose the alternatives better. This is just a reason to avoid unethical business/ industrial practices, and that reason applies whether or not you eat meat. This does not constitute a reason to eat meat.

...Why are you telling me this? Go tell that to all the vegans who DON'T DO THEIR RESEARCH! WHO ARE THE PEOPLE I WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT!

C'mon man, you're better than this.

I'm sorry, but this is a really poor rationale. Obviously something being vegan doesn't automatically mean its ethical in other respects why would it? We don't expect that of any other ethical position! Someone not being a murderer doesn't mean they're ethical, either, but that's no reason to give up on avoiding murder!

...Yeah, but that also doesn't mean you're exempt from being criticized for your unethical behaviour despite your abstinence from murder.

Nothing you've put forward is actually a flaw in veganism, or a reason to eat meat. These are merely reasons to approach other aspects of industry with ethical decision-making as well.

Why on earth would you let the existence of other ethical issues convince you not to address a specific one!? Hell, if a company doesn't take part in slave labour, that doesn't mean they're all-round ethical, either! Does that constitute a "flaw" in the position of avoiding slave-labour? Obviously not!

I never said they were reasons to eat meat either (well, maybe the 'buy meat from native groups to support them' but that's a bit of a narrow market). Granted, I eat meat, but that's a personal choice I don't really force on others, since appropriately sourced meat can be expensive and hard to come by.

What I did say, was that my problem with veganism is that it doesn't address a specific one. It takes on the symptoms, not the greasy, corrupt heart of the root cause. 'Don't consume animal products' is a feel-good, personal endeavor, that does nothing to address the whole 'Consumption Culture is so corrupt, excessive and unchecked that rampant animal and human rights abuses are the norm' that ethical consumption should be focused on tackling.

...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

Silvanus:
Right, so this boils down to stereotyping again, then.

I call it personal experience after an adult lifetime of dealing with this shit, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

I'd also comment on the lack of self-awareness required to boorishly lecture others about their dietary decisions in one post, and then excoriate others for boorishly lecturing people in the next post.

I'm not lecturing anyone about their dietary choices. I'm all for ethical consumption and harm reduction, and make no bones about the developed world being constructed upon unsustainable, unethical consumption, and that sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost. I'm criticizing ignorance, hubris, hypocrisy, and thought termination, and have from the beginning. It's rather interesting you would conflate the two, after I would like to believe I've made myself clear in each post, especially the parts of which you quoted.

Wrex Brogan:
...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

What you wanna and don't wanna do fluctuates from day to day, even hour to hour. Somebody following a restrictive diet needs a real reason to do it. If one doesn't give a shit it will feel dumb to restrict oneself.

Wrex Brogan:

...So really, if vegans just went 'you know, I don't eat/consume animal products 'cause I don't wanna', I'd really have no issues, thinking about it. It's just the conflations with ethical consumption that gets my gander...

But it is an ethical decision (for me). I mean, I used to enjoy eating meat, and I miss certain foods (chicken overcooked until it's really dry on a Foreman Grill mostly). I never preach on eating meat, and unless someone asks I don't mention it. But it's still an ethical decision, because I, personally, don't want to be responsible for what the meat production requires, and I feel that by eating the meat, I would be. It's not like I think I'm making a dent in the industry's profits or sticking it to the man, I'm just doing what feels, to me, like the right thing to do.

Obviously by saying this I've been a bit preachy, because that's what we're talking about. I would prefer it if no one ate meat, yes; but I'm not quite at the point of getting PETA posters printed up as place mats (though, come on, that's a good idea).

Edit: To be clear, I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat meat.

Eacaraxe:

I call it personal experience after an adult lifetime of dealing with this shit, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Statistically insignificant anecdotalism, then.

I'm not lecturing anyone about their dietary choices. I'm all for ethical consumption and harm reduction, and make no bones about the developed world being constructed upon unsustainable, unethical consumption, and that sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost. I'm criticizing ignorance, hubris, hypocrisy, and thought termination, and have from the beginning. It's rather interesting you would conflate the two, after I would like to believe I've made myself clear in each post, especially the parts of which you quoted.

Bollocks: you've spent several posts soapboxing about how stupid you think vegans are. The criticisms haven't focused on the dietary choice itself, sure, but its singled people out and grouped them together by their dietary choice.

Seanchaidh:
Reading over that, I couldn't help but think, "Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat shit!"

Well, the planet is literally dying around us. Being squeamish about eating human flesh is a bit self-indulgent, at this point

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