Sonic the Hedgehog Movie Trailer #2

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT
 

Hawki:

CoCage:

I can't speak for the UK comics as I never read them. Archie comics had Overlanders (humans with distinctly 4 fingers) with most of them wiped out. I just remember the retcon they did to bring regular humans in to Sonic's world to tie in with the Sonic Adventure games. I found it hilarious, as the story was "oh, (five-fingered) humans were always in Sonic's world. They were just hiding in cloaked civilizations. One that looks like San Francisco for some reason." It was one of the times kid me saw the writer pulling things out of their asses.

I don't see that as a retcon - not unless you go by the literal definition of a retcon (i.e. "retroactive continuity"). That said, what struck me as odd wasn't that the city was hidden, but that four fingers were a thing. Like, I'd never even noticed it before with any of the characters, and it struck me as such a bizzare distinction. What's more, given how Overlanders were portrayed up to that point, with their multi-coloured hair, I figured that you'd already have some distinction between Overlanders and regular humans through the aesthetic differences.

Archie Sonic is somewhat infamous for how often it tries to retcon things even down to little coloring mistakes. They chalked up Sally's early color swapping to getting doused in chemicals off screen and Dulcy's nose ring flickering from gold to black as her "Black singe Ring" being removed and replaced with a gold one that took away her fire breath.

Samtemdo8:

CyanCat47:
The original design was bad, the movie is still 99% likely to end up bad, but Paramount caving to internet outrage is a worrying sign. Internet discourse on movies has been terrible since it started and only gotten worse over time. I've seen a fair share of online comments already talking about Paramount 'listening to the fans' as justification for why every other studio should cave into every other idiotic fan demand. Focus testing has already ruined enough movies without the internet becoming a single live focus test for the studios to caper to in the vein hope that they can stave off being bought up by Disney for a few more years

Focus Testing and Internet Fan Demands is the reason why we went from Batman v Superman to Shazam.

From a 1/4 of a good movie to a 1/3. At least BvS sprikled some goodness over the movie instead of being utterly boring until the final act.

Also, WW and Aquaman was better at 2/3 and 1/2 a good movie respectively.

So they've downgraded

Semi-DemiFiend:

Archie Sonic is somewhat infamous for how often it tries to retcon things even down to little coloring mistakes. They chalked up Sally's early color swapping to getting doused in chemicals off screen and Dulcy's nose ring flickering from gold to black as her "Black singe Ring" being removed and replaced with a gold one that took away her fire breath.

I don't recall the ring, but I do recall the colour swapping explanation. Y'know, how it's clumsily inserted into a comic years after the swap was made, where ? year old me was reading it having never read the early issues at the time. Yet still able to realize that "gee, the writer just wanted to put that explanation in there, even if it was completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand."

That said though, it's not a retcon, or at least, not a retcon in any form outside the literal definition. It's not changing anything in-universe, it's providing a Watsonian explanation to a real-world choice (changing Sally's colour scheme for whatever reason). An example of an actual retcon in the series was shifting the timeline. Originally the xorda attacked Earth 3000 years before the series, then it was changed to 12000 years, with the 3000 year mark being retconned to the Days of Fury. The timeframe shifts, and no-one comments on it.

trunkage:
From a 1/4 of a good movie to a 1/3. At least BvS sprikled some goodness over the movie instead of being utterly boring until the final act.

Also, WW and Aquaman was better at 2/3 and 1/2 a good movie respectively.

So they've downgraded

That's an...interesting way of ranking films.

I'll just say this. Shazam! is the DCEU's only truly god movie, while BvS is its only truly bad one.

Hawki:

I'll just say this. Shazam! is the DCEU's only truly god movie, while BvS is its only truly bad one.

*laughs in Suicide Squad*

McElroy:

Hawki:

I'll just say this. Shazam! is the DCEU's only truly god movie, while BvS is its only truly bad one.

*laughs in Suicide Squad*

Even I didn't think Suicide Squad was that great.

Who asked for a Suicide Squad movie at all let alone who came up with the character designs.

Hawki:

Baffle2:
It's like Hitler, if Hitler was a Nazi.

Huh?

It's emphasis for effect. Hitler was bad; the Nazis were (are) bad; imagine how bad Hitler would be if he was a Nazi!

Semi-DemiFiend:
If it's anything like the Monster Hunter movies reasoning it's because the directors want an "every-man" character that outsiders of the franchise will be able to "relate" to because actual fans apparently aren't enough to rely on.

I hate how they have less than zero faith in moviegoers.

Did Star Wars need the hero to be someone who was literally from earth who just happened to show up in A Galaxy Far Far Away? No, they took some generic non-heroic person who was in the setting and made him the central character, eventually developing him into someone interesting.

I've already posted my personal idea for a script for a Monster Hunter movie at least twice, so I'll just say that if they want an easy everyman hero, have some peasant/farmer/blacksmith guy who looks like he's having an ordinary life, have some iconic monster [email protected]#$ up his life. Then have him go seek revenge on the iconic monster while teaming up with hunters who teach him HOW you hunt monsters. Thus, he learns about the art of hunting along with the non-fan audience, and learns how to actually work in a team instead of being some brooding revenge seeker who doesn't care if he dies (Character development!)

This at least gives the audience a SMIDGEN of trust!

Welp, at least it's a new idea. I'd like to see a videogame with this sonic character.

Hawki:

trunkage:
From a 1/4 of a good movie to a 1/3. At least BvS sprikled some goodness over the movie instead of being utterly boring until the final act.

Also, WW and Aquaman was better at 2/3 and 1/2 a good movie respectively.

So they've downgraded

That's an...interesting way of ranking films.

I'll just say this. Shazam! is the DCEU's only truly god movie, while BvS is its only truly bad one.

Yeah, it's not a great rating system. I would put Suicide Squad at a good 1/3 of a movie. Shazam first two thirds is some of the most boring and wasteful time I've ever spent with DC. Easily worse than something like Batman and Robin or BvS. But that last third is, as you say, God tier. Better than Infinity War or Endgame, GotG or Winter Solider. But only for a third. I cant recommend this movie because it takes too long to be interesting. Also, Shazam creators, please make something that doesn't look like it belongs on TV. Because the first bit looks like a Stargate episode.

So my actual scores reflect that. I think I put Shazam at 7/10 with Aquaman. 8 for WW, 6 for SS. 5 for BvS. I thought the actual fight between Batman and Superman being the worst part of the movie, which is opposite to most people's thoughts.

The improvement is pretty incredible. I went in expecting it to still look terrible and was surprised to say the least.

Not much for live action films when the franchise is based in games or animation but at least it doesn't look terrible.

Also goes to show how when people actually listen to criticism and adjust instead of badmouthing the critics (basically the exact opposite starwars and ghostbusters did) that you can get better art out of it, which is all that should matter. People seem to be happy about this as well. Sega and whoever is making this movie are shining examples of how to treat your fans and of actually giving a damn about the people who made their franchise popular.

Dreiko:

Also goes to show how when people actually listen to criticism and adjust instead of badmouthing the critics (basically the exact opposite starwars and ghostbusters did) that you can get better art out of it, which is all that should matter.

Not sure how that's equivalent. It's one thing to change a CGI character. When people started losing their minds that Ghostbusters 2016 would star women, what 'course correction' could be taken at that point?

People seem to be happy about this as well. Sega and whoever is making this movie are shining examples of how to treat your fans and of actually giving a damn about the people who made their franchise popular.

Correcting a mistake that everyone should have seen a mile away isn't really an achievement. But that said, "the people who made their franchise popular?" You mean, the developers? Because it certainly isn't fans, who are consumers.

Hawki:

Dreiko:

Also goes to show how when people actually listen to criticism and adjust instead of badmouthing the critics (basically the exact opposite starwars and ghostbusters did) that you can get better art out of it, which is all that should matter.

Not sure how that's equivalent. It's one thing to change a CGI character. When people started losing their minds that Ghostbusters 2016 would star women, what 'course correction' could be taken at that point?

People seem to be happy about this as well. Sega and whoever is making this movie are shining examples of how to treat your fans and of actually giving a damn about the people who made their franchise popular.

Correcting a mistake that everyone should have seen a mile away isn't really an achievement. But that said, "the people who made their franchise popular?" You mean, the developers? Because it certainly isn't fans, who are consumers.

The people complaining about women were not what I'm referring to. The reason that one trailer was hated was the type of humor (bad jokes and physical slapstick) and the ugly special effects with the ghosts looking like they were from a Scooby Doo film. Both concerns are something you can do something about but especially the latter was on the exact same area that the Sonic complaints were but because that film chose to deflect criticism with the shield of feminism and brand valid concerns as misogynist because some people also were unhappy about the female cast (but not to the exclusion of everyone outside of themselves and whatever valid criticism was offered) in order to not have to take responsibility for these other issues I'm describing, it ended up failing.

And you'd think that these issues would have been visible a mile away but apparently they weren't so what can I say about that lol. Either way, for something to be popular it literally needs to have enough fans, that's the only criteria, you can go ahead and make anything but if fans don't choose to support it it'll fizzle out and vanish in obscurity.

Sonic is a franchise that had 3 good games and a deluge of mediocre-to-terrible ones for the last 30~ years yet people still are willing to support it and care about it. That's a huge favor being done to the franchise and the sonic fans are kind of a joke but they stick to it anyhow cause they like it. I'm just a casual who started gaming with sonic 1 but didn't really care for the series at all past sonic 2 and I respect those fans who stuck with the series for all this time and care about this film enough to get it to change so much for the better. Don't forget, the third good and recent sonic game, sonic mania, was an indie fangame that Sega chose to support. And these same people worked on the redesigns for the sonic movie. This is all an achievement of the sonic fans right here.

Dreiko:

Sonic is a franchise that had 3 good games and a deluge of mediocre-to-terrible ones for the last 30~ years

Completely disagree there.

And these same people worked on the redesigns for the sonic movie. This is all an achievement of the sonic fans right here.

Look, I'm glad the redesign occurred, but yelling over the Internet isn't really an "achievement."

Creating a game is an achievement. Creating a piece of Sonic (or anything else) fanfiction, or fan-art, or analysis, or anything else, is an achievement. Yelling over the Internet isn't. Especially since redesign or not, there's no guarantee the film will do well, and I haven't seen much to convince me that it will.

Hawki:

CoCage:

I can't speak for the UK comics as I never read them. Archie comics had Overlanders (humans with distinctly 4 fingers) with most of them wiped out. I just remember the retcon they did to bring regular humans in to Sonic's world to tie in with the Sonic Adventure games. I found it hilarious, as the story was "oh, (five-fingered) humans were always in Sonic's world. They were just hiding in cloaked civilizations. One that looks like San Francisco for some reason." It was one of the times kid me saw the writer pulling things out of their asses.

I don't see that as a retcon - not unless you go by the literal definition of a retcon (i.e. "retroactive continuity"). That said, what struck me as odd wasn't that the city was hidden, but that four fingers were a thing. Like, I'd never even noticed it before with any of the characters, and it struck me as such a bizzare distinction. What's more, given how Overlanders were portrayed up to that point, with their multi-coloured hair, I figured that you'd already have some distinction between Overlanders and regular humans through the aesthetic differences.

Samtemdo8:

Focus Testing and Internet Fan Demands is the reason why we went from Batman v Superman to Shazam.

...and? One of those films is much, MUCH better than the other.

Marik2:
I kinda think that this movie would make a lot more money if they casted Chris alongside Sonic to defeat Jim Carrey.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12993587/1/

Beat you to it.

CrazyGirl17:
Is it weird I'm actually excited for this? The redesign looks a LOT better and the new trailer has a fun road trip vibe.

No...but why is Sonic going on a road trip anyway? He certainly doesn't need help moving around in the film.

If course, I'm someone who didn't mind Sonic X, so I don't have what you would call "good taste"...

Well, as someone who likes Sonic X and regards it as the #2 Sonic animated media, you're not alone.

Baffle2:
It's like Hitler, if Hitler was a Nazi.

Huh?

It counts as retcon when its implied in the story that humans went extinct, and Overlanders were there successors. Then coming back with, "oh, they were hidden the entire time", smells retcon. I have no complaints, as it put to rest most of the humans are bastards them the comics would go with sometimes. It was usually never too bad, but certain writers went overboard or preachy with the man destroys/hurts nature and animals for petty reasons and such. When the comics brought humans in to the forefront, that shit more or less stopped.

Dreiko:

Sonic is a franchise that had 3 good games and a deluge of mediocre-to-terrible ones for the last 30~ years yet people still are willing to support it and care about it. That's a huge favor being done to the franchise and the sonic fans are kind of a joke but they stick to it anyhow cause they like it. I'm just a casual who started gaming with sonic 1 but didn't really care for the series at all past sonic 2 and I respect those fans who stuck with the series for all this time and care about this film enough to get it to change so much for the better. Don't forget, the third good and recent sonic game, sonic mania, was an indie fangame that Sega chose to support. And these same people worked on the redesigns for the sonic movie. This is all an achievement of the sonic fans right here.

Hawki:
Creating a piece of Sonic (or anything else) fanfiction, or fan-art, or analysis, or anything else, is an achievement.

Does that include the ones that are purely about fucking? Cause I think that's most of them.

Hawki:

Dreiko:

Sonic is a franchise that had 3 good games and a deluge of mediocre-to-terrible ones for the last 30~ years

Completely disagree there.

And these same people worked on the redesigns for the sonic movie. This is all an achievement of the sonic fans right here.

Look, I'm glad the redesign occurred, but yelling over the Internet isn't really an "achievement."

Creating a game is an achievement. Creating a piece of Sonic (or anything else) fanfiction, or fan-art, or analysis, or anything else, is an achievement. Yelling over the Internet isn't. Especially since redesign or not, there's no guarantee the film will do well, and I haven't seen much to convince me that it will.

Well, people have lives and talents in different areas so someone may not know how to make something personally or may not have the spare time to do so but still wishes to offer their support for a direction they believe in. They're not less of a fan cause they can't support the development of a fangame with their busy schedule or they don't know how to draw very well. I'd be wrong to rob those people of their contribution, whatever it may be, since they're all doing it out of their love for a series. I doubt any of the sonic mania people would deem these people as not having contributed to the longevity of the franchise because they were "just fans".

You don't need to produce a tangible object to be an agent for positive treatment and enthusiasm for a series. Just having someone who is a sonic fan in every community, stoically being sonic fans despite people making fun of them, is good for the franchise in that people still remember it exists and may choose to give it another chance where otherwise they'd completely forget it.

CoCage:

It counts as retcon when its implied in the story that humans went extinct, and Overlanders were there successors. Then coming back with, "oh, they were hidden the entire time", smells retcon.

About that...

-Was it ever really implied that humans were extinct and replaced? I don't recall when Overlanders were introduced to the setting as a concept (I think around the 40s issues, in the run-up to Endgame), but even then, I don't recall there being anything to suggest that they were de-evolved humans. Since Mobius wasn't confirmed as future Earth until #124, and there wasn't really a hint of that until Brave New World at the earliest (with the world map), I always just took it as more "yeah, there's some humans in the setting who are called Overlanders." Like, Robotnik had to have come from somewhere, right?

-Even if that was the implication, I can't call that a retcon. An example I like to use is Superman. At some point, he was called the Last Son of Krypton, because he was thought to be the only kryptonian in existence. Then, turns out some others survived, such as Zod and Kara. Is that a retcon? Well, it changes the status quo, but nothing changes in the setting per se, it's the setting revealing new information.

I have no complaints, as it put to rest most of the humans are bastards them the comics would go with sometimes. It was usually never too bad, but certain writers went overboard or preachy with the man destroys/hurts nature and animals for petty reasons and such. When the comics brought humans in to the forefront, that shit more or less stopped.

I know what you mean, sort of, but I never really saw it as the trope. Yes, Overlanders in-universe were stated to be highly aggressive, but it's not as if there's a dearth of Mobian villains, even if Robotnik's the worst of the worst. That, and the comics showed Mobians were highly prejudiced towards Overlanders as well, such as when Lupe adopted the two human girls despite objections from her pack, or the prejudice Nate faced in Mobotropolis.

Like, again, see what you mean, but I never saw the introduction of 'actual' humans in the setting to be some balancing of the scales. If anything, the humans of Station Square were just as bad in some ways, if not worse (see the whole Dragon Island thing).

Johnny Novgorod:

Does that include the ones that are purely about fucking? Cause I think that's most of them.

Look, I'm not going to deny that there's certain...elements of STH fanfiction that I'd rather not exist, but even then, as a matter of principle, if someone spends 1000 words writing an STH lemon fic, versus someone who spends a few lines bitching about the movie design, which one is the better 'contribution?' One of those things takes effort, one of them doesn't.

As someone who's written plenty of STH stuff, and without smut, and also vented his spleen over the original design, I know what I'd submit as my 'contribution' to the fandom.

Hawki:

Look, I'm not going to deny that there's certain...elements of STH fanfiction that I'd rather not exist, but even then, as a matter of principle, if someone spends 1000 words writing an STH lemon fic, versus someone who spends a few lines bitching about the movie design, which one is the better 'contribution?' One of those things takes effort, one of them doesn't.

As someone who's written plenty of STH stuff, and without smut, and also vented his spleen over the original design, I know what I'd submit as my 'contribution' to the fandom.

Was it ever established that complaining about this movie was the sole contribution to the fandom of any notable segment of the people who complained?

If it was I'd agree with that but I have yet to see any evidence to suggest as much so I'll be logical and assume if someone cares enough about sonic to complain about the movie, they care about it enough to be fans of it in other ways too and totaling all those acts together makes them comparable to someone who writes fanfics (of any age rating). Some people write, some people make cosplay, some people play the games 30 times each, some people talk about it online and share their hype or theories about the characters. All these things are equal if you do them enough.

I myself liked sonic 1 and 2 a ton and yet I never actually complained about the movie because I simply didn't care enough to do so. So someone who complained must have cared at least more than that much lol.

Hawki:

I know what you mean, sort of, but I never really saw it as the trope. Yes, Overlanders in-universe were stated to be highly aggressive, but it's not as if there's a dearth of Mobian villains, even if Robotnik's the worst of the worst. That, and the comics showed Mobians were highly prejudiced towards Overlanders as well, such as when Lupe adopted the two human girls despite objections from her pack, or the prejudice Nate faced in Mobotropolis.

Like, again, see what you mean, but I never saw the introduction of 'actual' humans in the setting to be some balancing of the scales. If anything, the humans of Station Square were just as bad in some ways, if not worse (see the whole Dragon Island thing).

Hence, why I said most of the time. Granted, I stopped reading the Archie series by the time I started high school, and would occasionally take a peak every now and then. There is a ton I do not remember. And this is less of a balancing act, and me just hating overly preachy and self righteous message. Always disliked as a kid, and despise it even more now. It relates back to the environmentalism message thread.

DC Movie Rankings:

Man of Steel = S
B v. S = C- (C+ with Director's Cut)
Justice League = B
Suicide Squad = C
Aquaman = S
Wonder Woman = A

Still need to see Shazam. Looking forward to Birds of Prey.

Hawki:

Johnny Novgorod:

Does that include the ones that are purely about fucking? Cause I think that's most of them.

Look, I'm not going to deny that there's certain...elements of STH fanfiction that I'd rather not exist, but even then, as a matter of principle, if someone spends 1000 words writing an STH lemon fic, versus someone who spends a few lines bitching about the movie design, which one is the better 'contribution?' One of those things takes effort, one of them doesn't.

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Hawki:
As someone who's written plenty of STH stuff, and without smut, and also vented his spleen over the original design, I know what I'd submit as my 'contribution' to the fandom.

Fan works as achievements are a tough sell, being that they usually break copyright laws. All in all it's a good question, honestly, whether adult fandoms of childrens' IPs are good or bad for them in the end.

Johnny Novgorod:

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

McElroy:
All in all it's a good question, honestly, whether adult fandoms of childrens' IPs are good or bad for them in the end.

Good.

Or at least, good in the sense that if you have an adult fandom for a children's IP, the IP gets more exposure. Gets 'consumed' more, so there's more of the IP. In my experience, when an IP gets an adult following (or the children are still following as adults), it makes adjustments to cater for them. Since adults crave more sophisticated material than children, the IP gets richer as a result.

Hawki:

McElroy:
All in all it's a good question, honestly, whether adult fandoms of children's IPs are good or bad for them in the end.

Good.

Or at least, good in the sense that if you have an adult fandom for a children's IP, the IP gets more exposure. Gets 'consumed' more, so there's more of the IP. In my experience, when an IP gets an adult following (or the children are still following as adults), it makes adjustments to cater for them. Since adults crave more sophisticated material than children, the IP gets richer as a result.

That's a clear positive angle, yeah. When the kids' view of it doesn't mix with the adult one I will agree. However, I'm sure kids will constantly run into questionable MLP-related material or borderline autistic anime dissertations online. I dunno if an IP gets richer from garbage.

Sometimes the fans might try to ruin it, sometimes things fall apart due to the creator being a bit loony (J.K. "Just Kidding" Rowling). Or the producers might switch to easy mode and put out trash because their place in pop culture was secured long ago.

Hawki:

Johnny Novgorod:

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

McElroy:
That's a clear positive angle, yeah. When the kids' view of it doesn't mix with the adult one I will agree.

I completely disagree.

Off the top of my head, Chronicles of Narnia. As a kid, my experience can be summed up as "ooh, lions and witches, cool!" Growing up, reading was more "huh, so it's actually an analogy to the concept of original sin and other Christian theology." How and when I made the shift escapes me, but my viewing of the text improved through exposure to 'adult ideas.' Or heck, even Jurassic Park. Kid me was "dinosaurs, scary!", adult me is the type of person who remembers the 'lunch scene' as much as any other memorable moment in the film for the ideas it discusses.

However, I'm sure kids will constantly run into questionable MLP-related material or borderline autistic anime dissertations online. I dunno if an IP gets richer from garbage.

Every IP has its share of garbage. But unless it's pornographic or something, I don't see harm in it.

If someone writes a thesis that MLP is championing the role of a single monarch over dual monarchs or something (in that Twilight takes over Celestia and Luna, and apparently does a better job ruling Equestria) I may disagree with the assertion, but I don't see how anyone could be harmed by it.

Sometimes the fans might try to ruin it, sometimes things fall apart due to the creator being a bit loony (J.K. "Just Kidding" Rowling).

Um, I think the fans (or a subset of them) were more loony than Rowling.

I usually avoid terms like this, but Rowling's biggest mistake was in trying to cave into the "woke" crowd without doing any actual writing for it. A case I remember was someone asking (paraphrased) "where are all the Jewish characters at Hogwarts?" To which Rowling pulled a name out of thin air for a character who'd never been seen before. What I wanted to know reading that was:

-Why are you expecting Jewish characters in Harry Potter when the series has never delved into religion at all?

-How does religion even feature into Wizarding Society, especially since the Abrahamic religions have the whole "magic is evil" thing going on?

The second question is actually kind of interesting, and I wouldn't mind seeing it explored. Like, say a Christian Muggle-born gets the letter and has trouble reconciling their faith with their abilities. Unfortunately, Rowling hasn't done that, and while that isn't bad in of itself, the whole representation thing likely isn't worried about that either. More the representation is the ends, not the means.

Rowling's not perfect, mind you - she stated that Dumbledore was gay, but has never put in the actual effort to depict him as such, so she's basically trying to have her cake and eat it. But when you get articles criticizing Cursed Child for not making Albus and Scorpius gay, then, yeah. Something's off. Criticism is usually based on what a work does do, not what it doesn't.

Johnny Novgorod:

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

...and?

Congratulations, one fic out of millions. You've proven that porn exists.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And, er, how many Sonic games over the last few decades have you played? Because I can't reconcile that statement with personal experience.

Also, poor spelling is endemic. I review on ff.net (even though I don't want to mostly, but I believe in 'review repayments'), and poor spelling/grammar/punctuation is found across the board.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Sturgeon's Law says nothing about effort. The entire point of Sturgeon's Law is that 90% of everything is crap, so, ergo, you could make the argument that an entire genre is crap based on that 90%. So it's safe to say that fic falls into the 90%. That still leaves us the 10%. Which is still going to be worth more than any individual action on changing the design.

Johnny Novgorod:

Hawki:

Johnny Novgorod:

Yeah, here's the difference: all that effortless "bitching" about the movie design got actual results, and improved the movie.
A user writing a 360 chapter 'fic in which Sonic doggy-styles a different "dripping" lady in each chapter doesn't improve anything (except my argument, which is: just because it took time, or effort, doesn't make it an achievement).

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Well if Sturgeon's Law is being repped here, what makes anyone think this movie is going to be in that 10%

You know, just for making the adjustment and going through the extra effort, I may actually go see this movie, regardless of whether or not it's good.

If Shadow is teased for the sequel, I'm going to lose my shit.

Gordon_4:

Johnny Novgorod:

Hawki:

Difference being that the bitching was only achieved through culmative effort, and low effort at that. The contribution of the individual in this case is negligable, whereas the contribution of the individual in a fan work isn't.

There's also the fact that this hypothetical fic is going to fall into the 90% of crap specified by Sturgeon's Law. What happens when we look at the other 10%?

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

There hasn't been a good Sonic game in decades so I'm not inclined to give the fans' wank material the benefit of the doubt. Most of them can't even spell.

And again, just because something "took effort" doesn't mean it was worth the effort. You know that if you're quoting Sturgeon's Law.

Well if Sturgeon's Law is being repped here, what makes anyone think this movie is going to be in that 10%

I don't, not for a second. It still looks like an awful embarrasment, just without the nightmare fuel.

Combustion Kevin:

If Shadow is teased for the sequel, I'm going to lose my shit.

Tails/Knuckles/Amy: "Are we a joke to you?"

Saelune:

ObsidianJones:

Saelune:
Still looks bad, but now everyone is tricked into thinking it is not so bad because it is not as bad as it was, but it is still bad.

Cartoon characters should have cartoon movies.

I raise you "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" and "Mary Poppins".

... Actually, I might fold on Mary Poppins. I remember being bored as a kid.

I raise you "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".

God, that was a good movie.

Mary Poppins was dumb, and the cartoons were ancillary. And Who Framed Roger Rabbit was still a cartoon movie.

Neither tried to make the cartoons not be cartoons. Really they only support my point. Hell, the singular 'cartoon character' turned 'live action' in Roger Rabbit was the insane, disturbing villain who horrified many a child.

(SHHHH!!! Don't remind the greedy Hollywood scumbags about Who Framed Roger Rabbit!! It's one of very few of my cherished childhood films left that they haven't appropriated for modernization and topical puns!!)

*AHEM* Man, haven't watched SHORT CIRCUIT 2 in a while! What we wouldn't PAY to see that gem again, maybe with a FRESH COAT OF PAINT and CGI? Yeah, a shit ton of CGI and MODERN POP CULTURE references! Probably good for 5 movies at LEAST; hell, he's "Johnny 5," FIVE is right there in his name.*COUGH*

Anyhow, OT, seems a lot of people are taking pride in "convincing" them to make the changes to Sonic's appearance while forgetting it's a Sonic movie. I get it, "baby steps," "they listened" n'all, but what has anyone really gained outside of a better looking character in a destined-to-be-awful, fan-pandering cash grab? They basically wiped the lipstick off the pig because people love bacon.

And for those hating on Jim Carrey, I understand he's divisive in that you either love him or hate him (I'm of the former opinion; come at me,) but in my humble opinion, he does appear to be the best thing going here. This film will need his signature over-the-top physical comedy (as well as his star power) to keep this at a comfortable "camp[y] fire" level and from being an all-out "dumpster fire." It's a live-action movie that no one asked for about a videogame animal that hasn't been relevant in forever; c'mon, shit's not floating without someone like Carrey flailing about to distract from the utter pointlessness of it.

But yay; he's got gloves now...

Hawki:

Johnny Novgorod:

It's not hypothetical, it's called Sonic's Ultimate Harem (author Lil Soniq), comprises 360 chapters of Sonic raw-dogging Rouge, Peach, Samus et al and I'd quote parts of it if it didn't violate the CoC.

...and?

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

And, er, how many Sonic games over the last few decades have you played? Because I can't reconcile that statement with personal experience.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

Sturgeon's Law says nothing about effort. The entire point of Sturgeon's Law is that 90% of everything is crap, so, ergo, you could make the argument that an entire genre is crap based on that 90%. So it's safe to say that fic falls into the 90%. That still leaves us the 10%. Which is still going to be worth more than any individual action on changing the design.

All this talk about Sturgeon and you probably haven't even read one of his books. You're just passing his corpse around like the rest of the internet who spent a little too much time on TvTropes, which is to semiology what CinemaSins is to film criticism.

Here's the gist of it:

1) A horrible trailer came out with a horrible score and a horrible design.
2) People pointed it out.
3) Replace with an average trailer with average score and average design.
4) Everybody wins.

Though a part of me wishes the original nightmare fuel Sanic remained because it would suit the overall shittiness of the franchise.

Johnny Novgorod:

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

By the strictest definition of the word, yes.

Or, in context, it's still worth more than a few lines criticizing a trailer.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

That's a nice non-answer.

All this talk about Sturgeon and you probably haven't even read one of his books. You're just passing his corpse around like the rest of the internet who spent a little too much time on TvTropes, which is to semiology what CinemaSins is to film criticism.

And that's a nice evasion.

No, I haven't read Sturgeon's work. What of it? I don't need to have read Princepa de Mathimatica to understand the basics of Newton's laws. But whether I've read it or not is academic to the assertion that even if 90% of everything is crap, even if that 90% is somehow worth less than criticism amounting to a few sentences and a dislike on YouTube, that still leaves the question of the remaining 10%.

Or, if we reframe the question outside the Law entirely, let me ask you what's worth more to the fanbase - keyboard criticism, or a fan work that's really good? Bearing in mind that this is referring to the individual level, not the sum total.

Here's the gist of it:

1) A horrible trailer came out with a horrible score and a horrible design.
2) People pointed it out.
3) Replace with an average trailer with average score and average design.
4) Everybody wins.

None of which is to do with the issue at hand, which is the question of what counts as a better achievement, or, alternatively, what's worth more to the fanbase. Fan creation, or keyboard/hashtag activism on the original level.

Hawki:

Johnny Novgorod:

And its existence is an "achievement" according to you.

By the strictest definition of the word, yes.

Or, in context, it's still worth more than a few lines criticizing a trailer.

Not if that makes the trailer - if not the movie - better.

Simultaneously enough and also too many.

That's a nice non-answer.

image

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Johnny Novgorod:

So you don't think they should've redesigned Sanic and that, for example, some shitty porno about cartoon animals is a better achievement than voicing criticism/heeding criticism. Well, that's you. You also think Terminator 6 is a good movie. But hey, for what it's worth, the new Sanic movie... is still gonna suck, just not as much. So really you're winning here. Either way I'm not watching it.

Just to inject myself into the conversation for a moment: I'd instead argue that calling the redesign an achievement of the fans is, at best, a misattribution. If we must insist on calling it an achievement at all, the credit should probably go to the CGI artists for accomplishing the redesign so quickly, as that also necessitates redoing the rigging, animation, CGI lighting, etc (ie, the achievement would be in how quickly they turned it around).

With that said, to call it an achievement at all is questionable. We don't call it achievement, for instance, when a company recognizes a problem and issues a product recall. This is effectively in the same boat as that. It's to their credit that the production team recognized that the negative reaction wasn't the fault of the fans and worked to address the issue, but to call any part of that an achievement is reaching.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here