Star Wars 9: The Sky of Ricewalker: A senseless, incoherent nightmare.

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evilthecat:

Hawki:
You mean that plot point that was in the original film and re-introduced in the musical IIRC?

It literally wasn't in the original film.

In fact, several commentators at the time went further than I am and claimed that Stars disinterest in any of the lionesses in the film, combined with his very obviously stereotypical mannerisms, was essentially Disney trying to position the character as canonically gay. I don't agree with that, but it does show how ludicrously unsubtle the whole thing was.

Eh...you're both kinda right. The Scene/Song "The Madness of King Scar" - wherein Scar expresses that he intends to make Nala his queen - is kinda in the same boat as Aladdin's "Proud of Your Boy" number. It was something they scripted and storyboarded, but it never made it to the final cut of the film. The remake has him proposition Sarabi instead, which - while as unnecessary as him propositioning Nala - is far less creepy. To borrow from the film's inspirations for a moment, imagine if Claudius had tried to wed Ophelia rather than Gertrude. There's some political sense in marrying the queen, but pursuing his nephew's love interest is just shudder inducing, and it's unsurprising that Disney would opt to leave it on the cutting room floor.

Gorfias:

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want? .

I would recommend you see the Youtube series, "Cobra Kai". Nostalgia fun that gives old fans a chance to see characters we appreciate from the past, catch up with them. There has been movement in their lives (Unlike Star Wars returning us to 1977 after 6 movies) while the old characters introduce us to interesting new characters.

Star Wars could have done this. They didn't

There some alternate universe where it would happen, and people would still complain. Even if they did what Cobra Kai did, Carrie Fisher's unfortunate death would've smashed that plan. Overall, the sequel trilogy did fine for me.

CoCage:

Gorfias:

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want? .

I would recommend you see the Youtube series, "Cobra Kai". Nostalgia fun that gives old fans a chance to see characters we appreciate from the past, catch up with them. There has been movement in their lives (Unlike Star Wars returning us to 1977 after 6 movies) while the old characters introduce us to interesting new characters.

Star Wars could have done this. They didn't

There some alternate universe where it would happen, and people would still complain. Even if they did what Cobra Kai did, Carrie Fisher's unfortunate death would've smashed that plan. Overall, the sequel trilogy did fine for me.

Were it up to me, the Republic would have been fine BUT facing "Foundation" series type problems. Force Awakens would have our 3 heroes well, together but teaching young people about growing dangers and then, let the young go on new adventures we will care about. Cobra Kai is still clinging to the old as well as new so... not a perfect analogy. I love it and hope you get a chance to see it.

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

That is both asinine and incorrect.

Gorfias:
I thought FA was fun forgettable popcorn film until I really thought about how disappointed in it I was. There was no progress (intentionally). We've watched 6 movies so far, and now we're right back to where we were in 1977. Even Palpatine is back! I was also outraged that they had an opportunity to put our 3 heroes together again and blew it. The Last Jedi had tried some things that are interesting. Anyone should be able to learn to use the force if it is a metaphor for becoming like a Samurai. Rey's parents need not be anyone special. Next interesting idea: get rid of the light/dark dichotomy. But they appear to have chickened out. So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

Why would any movie be a "hate letter" to literally half of the world's population?

PsychedelicDiamond:

Gorfias:
I thought FA was fun forgettable popcorn film until I really thought about how disappointed in it I was. There was no progress (intentionally). We've watched 6 movies so far, and now we're right back to where we were in 1977. Even Palpatine is back! I was also outraged that they had an opportunity to put our 3 heroes together again and blew it. The Last Jedi had tried some things that are interesting. Anyone should be able to learn to use the force if it is a metaphor for becoming like a Samurai. Rey's parents need not be anyone special. Next interesting idea: get rid of the light/dark dichotomy. But they appear to have chickened out. So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

Why would any movie be a "hate letter" to literally half of the world's population?

Its the persecution complex of the same type of person who believes in a "war on Christmas."

Hawki:
-Gaston: Not really. He arguably starts out as being camp, but he darkens a lot towards the end. It's also at this point that Gaston becomes a true villain rather than your village jock.

Why would being a villain preclude him from being camp?

Gaston is a Dandy. That's his entire motivation. On the surface he's this super-masc ideal, but he's also obsessed with his own appearance in a way that is actually very foppish. All of his "dark" actions stem from this desire to fill this role of being the town hero everyone admires, because that role is an affectation.

Hawki:
I can't think of anything about him that's camp.

Did you watch it?

Leaving aside the fact that he is doing a gay voice, he's literally wearing dramatic eyeliner.

I mean, Jafar is a bit complex because he's an orientalist stereotype, which very much overlaps with the idea of being femmey and decadent (and gay), but he is still noticably more femme than any other male character in the same setting.

Hawki:
That isn't every villain of this era, but I can't see a "villain = camp" train of thought for this period.

That's fine, don't.

This isn't heterosexual culture. Noone expects you to see it.

Hawki:
Gothic?

Affected. Contrived. Melodramatic.

You know, camp.

evilthecat:

Gaston is a Dandy. That's his entire motivation. On the surface he's this super-masc ideal, but he's also obsessed with his own appearance in a way that is actually very foppish.

I was about to challenge you on the subject of Disney villains who are very masculine, like Tarzan's Clayton or Beauty's Gaston, but it looks like you've already covered that. To begin with it sounded like you were criticising the use of feminine or gay elements in signposting villainous characters, but you're now using a broad enough definition for even the ultra virile, five-dozen-eggs-eating, not-an-inch-hairless Gaston to be considered camp? You and I are using very different dictionaries, apparently.

The follow up question would then be, since you see campness everywhere and actually think it's a positive quality in that it's a requisite for a fun, interesting character; what's your beef?

evilthecat:
I mean, Jafar is a bit complex because he's an orientalist stereotype, which very much overlaps with the idea of being femmey and decadent (and gay), but he is still noticably more femme than any other male character in the same setting.

Something that occurred to me a while ago is that Jafar is, design wise, basically the male equivalent of Cruella DeVille. The resemblance is uncanny - the wild eyes, the wide mouth, the comically bony frame. Trying to argue that this is a feminine (or "femmey" if that's the newspeak version) aesthetic is a dead-end because Jafar is about as feminine as Cruella is masculine - which is to say, not much. They're both manic, scheming, rake-thin old coots; barely sexualised at all except when it's to evoke disgust or a laugh.

As for "orientalist stereotype" - oh, come on, if you're going to invoke that then you'd have to also apply it to the film's protagonists too, since that's the setting and the aesthetic they inhabit.

Final point. You said you'll stop calling out Disney's homophobia when they stop being homophobic. The purpose of me listing notable villains from the last 30 years of Disney films was to hammer the point that if Disney have in the past used obvious homophobic tropes, that's something that's been almost completely absent in the last 20 years. Disney villains these days are much more likely to be males of the straight acting (Hans) or conservative (Lots-o-Huggin Bear, Stinky Pete, Runeard) varieties, or else females. So, umm, yay?

CoCage:
To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want?

Dunno if I'd call myself overzealous, but I know I at least wanted a trilogy of movies that was handled with proper attention and care that simultaneously wasn't passed around to people like the college party girl. A trilogy that didn't add so many ultimately pointless/worthless characters in asinine sequences that didn't go anywhere. At least with the prequel trilogy I felt like there was a concise vision in place, despite changes being made after the response to Episode 1

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

I have no idea what you are dribbling on about. As a man and a boy at heart, I felt no hate salvo fired at me from the film. Maybe I'm not looking at the right things to get upset about. Or looking at all. Also, Luke Skywalker is actually in the film. He shows up as a ghost towards the end of the film and again at the end of the film. Spoilers. If they were writing him out, they could of just you know, not put him in the film and never mention him again.

I'm going to stop writing now or I'm going to get myself in trouble.

altnameJag:
"Oh noes, Rey accidentally killed Chewie with force light-oh he's fine"

That really bugged me more than it should have done I was like "oh wow, they killed off Chewie, that's brave...oh wait, he's alive and well in the very next scene". I mean, if they wanted that moment to mean anything at all, they could have kept the fact that he was alive a secret until a raid on a First Order outpost further into the film and not have him rescued 30 seconds after he "died". Maybe they didn't want to upset the kids or something, I don't know.

Batou667:

evilthecat:

Gaston is a Dandy. That's his entire motivation. On the surface he's this super-masc ideal, but he's also obsessed with his own appearance in a way that is actually very foppish.

I was about to challenge you on the subject of Disney villains who are very masculine, like Tarzan's Clayton or Beauty's Gaston, but it looks like you've already covered that. To begin with it sounded like you were criticising the use of feminine or gay elements in signposting villainous characters, but you're now using a broad enough definition for even the ultra virile, five-dozen-eggs-eating, non-an-inch-hairless Gaston to be considered camp? You and I are using very different dictionaries, apparently.

Thanks to a weird conversation in a weird place that I won't get too far into, I've come across this in the past. I look a little like Gaston. Not exactly the same, but yes the "masculine jaw, five-dozen-eggs, poorly shaven bear" descriptors all broadly apply to me. And the use of the term "bear" is apropos because that's the kind of gay I apparently look like. Through this conversation I learned that basically everything except for extreme dudebro signalling is super gay, and even the dudebros secretly want it too.

On a personal level I really think that the signalling used by Disney villains had way more to do with the appearances and airs of nobility and aristocracy - and the implicit negativity in taking on the airs of a class that you are not a part of - than anything else, but there can be only gay I guess.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Gorfias:
I thought FA was fun forgettable popcorn film until I really thought about how disappointed in it I was. There was no progress (intentionally). We've watched 6 movies so far, and now we're right back to where we were in 1977. Even Palpatine is back! I was also outraged that they had an opportunity to put our 3 heroes together again and blew it. The Last Jedi had tried some things that are interesting. Anyone should be able to learn to use the force if it is a metaphor for becoming like a Samurai. Rey's parents need not be anyone special. Next interesting idea: get rid of the light/dark dichotomy. But they appear to have chickened out. So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

Why would any movie be a "hate letter" to literally half of the world's population?

Also, does this make New Hope Luke Skywalker a "hate letter" to girls and women?

EvilRoy:
On a personal level I really think that the signalling used by Disney villains had way more to do with the appearances and airs of nobility and aristocracy - and the implicit negativity in taking on the airs of a class that you are not a part of - than anything else, but there can be only gay I guess.

Bingo. I alluded to this before with my observation that in a series of animated features dominated by American voice talent, the villains frequently have British accents - because it sounds aristocratic and lends itself well to an arrogant or pompous character. While Disney villains span the range from beefcake to weedy fop to drag queen to femme fatale, what they tend to have in common is a greed for (unearned) power... as opposed to all the ostensibly benevolent but unelected monarchies which go largely unexamined, but that's a point for another discussion. Having the villain put on condescending airs well above their station is a way of communicating that. That comes across in the voice acting, visual design, and animated mannerisms.

I would say that historically Disney has used the foppish, weak-but-cruel aristocrat template to signal its bad guys; the sexual or gendered component is in my opinion likely to be mostly incidental - if not outright imagined.

trunkage:

PsychedelicDiamond:

Gorfias:
snip

Why would any movie be a "hate letter" to literally half of the world's population?

Also, does this make New Hope Luke Skywalker a "hate letter" to girls and women?

Maybe, but Empire Strikes Back is absolutely a hate letter to dads.

I mean Vader tells Luke he's his father, Luke goes "NOOOOOOOO" all superdramatically and then even throws himself down a really deep hole. Movie hates dads. Can't get any more clear that.

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want? .

Good movies would have been a decent start.

Elvis Starburst:

CoCage:
To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want?

Dunno if I'd call myself overzealous, but I know I at least wanted a trilogy of movies that was handled with proper attention and care that simultaneously wasn't passed around to people like the college party girl. A trilogy that didn't add so many ultimately pointless/worthless characters in asinine sequences that didn't go anywhere. At least with the prequel trilogy I felt like there was a concise vision in place, despite changes being made after the response to Episode 1

Too bad Episode II was boring as fuck. It's the only Star Wars film I cannot finish at all after seeing it once.

SupahEwok:

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want? .

Good movies would have been a decent start.

They are good movies, despite the problems. Some of the problems they have are very present in the OT and PT.

CoCage:
Too bad Episode II was boring as fuck. It's the only Star Wars film I cannot finish at all after seeing it once.

Oh yeah, it's a total slog. Though my favourite Star Wars game takes place during the Clone Wars, so I have some warm feelings towards the movie cause of that

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want?

My guess is that they want a film version of their personal playthrough of Knights of the Old Republic. A lot of people seem to have a massive hard-on for that game in general and specifically for Darth Revan.

twistedmic:

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want?

My guess is that they want a film version of their personal playthrough of Knights of the Old Republic. A lot of people seem to have a massive hard-on for that game in general and specifically for Darth Revan.

They better keep dreaming; their personal fanfic ain't gonna happen. I wouldn't mind a KOTOR TV series or movies. It would work better as a TV show.

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

What level of sjw persecution complex do you have to be on to believe something so pathetic?

CoCage:
To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want?

Some integrity of vision, and a passing grade in a 'Structural Form in Myths and Storytelling' community college course.

Batou667:
I was about to challenge you on the subject of Disney villains who are very masculine, like Tarzan's Clayton or Beauty's Gaston, but it looks like you've already covered that.

That's the thing though, Gaston is not (traditionally) masculine.

image

Sure, he's built and has body hair and his vocal pitch is fairly low. But he also constantly checks himself out in any reflective surface. He poses in casual conversation. His motions and voice are unusually florid. Again, he's not just a guy who happens to be hot. He's a dandy. His entire identity is an affectation, which is kind of the point. "Real men" are beasts, not dandies.

Batou667:
The follow up question would then be, since you see campness everywhere and actually think it's a positive quality in that it's a requisite for a fun, interesting character; what's your beef?

Well, firstly, because this was never a positive quality for Disney. They made characters queer people would like, but they did so entirely by accident. The intention is still pejorative.

Secondly, because despite clearly being ashamed of its history of queer coding and use of camp villains, Disney still panders to obnoxious stereotypes and empty tokenism regarding queer inclusion, we've just moved on to using irrelevant side-characters, "sassy" friends and comic relief which to me is a genuine step backwards.

Batou667:
Something that occurred to me a while ago is that Jafar is, design wise, basically the male equivalent of Cruella DeVille. The resemblance is uncanny - the wild eyes, the wide mouth, the comically bony frame. Trying to argue that this is a feminine (or "femmey" if that's the newspeak version) aesthetic is a dead-end because Jafar is about as feminine as Cruella is masculine - which is to say, not much.

If your argument that Jafar is not femme is to compare him to Cruella de Vil, a character who is a parody of the supposed vanity, narcissism and decadence of urban socialites, whose motivation and character is defined largely around her clothes and who looks and acts like a drag queen, a literally parody of hyperfemininity practiced primarily by gay men, I think you've kind of shot your own argument in the dick.

Batou667:
As for "orientalist stereotype" - oh, come on, if you're going to invoke that then you'd have to also apply it to the film's protagonists too, since that's the setting and the aesthetic they inhabit.

Yeah, of course. The entire film is an orientalist fantasy. I literally referenced this in the post you're quoting.

It doesn't change the fact that Jafar is a particular kind of orientalist stereotype.

Batou667:
Disney villains these days are much more likely to be males of the straight acting (Hans) or conservative (Lots-o-Huggin Bear, Stinky Pete, Runeard) varieties, or else females. So, umm, yay?

Again, did I not already make this clear?

I've pointed multiple times to the existence of two distinct forms of homophobia, one historical and one current. The problem is that I actually prefer Disney's old homophobia to Disney's new homophobia, so for me what you're describing isn't progress.

evilthecat:

Sure, he's built and has body hair and his vocal pitch is fairly low. But he also constantly checks himself out in any reflective surface. He poses in casual conversation. His motions and voice are unusually florid. Again, he's not just a guy who happens to be hot. He's a dandy. His entire identity is an affectation, which is kind of the point. "Real men" are beasts, not dandies.

Okay.....he's a narcissistic douche. Basically Johnny Bravo, but even more of an asshole. And "Real Men" can be dandy. Just ask Space Dandy.

image

Dandy is more of a real man, that Gaston can ever hope to be.

SupahEwok:

CoCage:

To the fans going overboard on the negativity to the sequel trilogy: What the fuck do you want? .

Good movies would have been a decent start.

Having some idea what they were doing and the consistency to follow it through. MCU can roadmap and somehow have 20 something films and a couple TV shows in the same universe over 10 years and more or less have them work together. Star Wars can't seem to do it with 3 films in 5 years, so as a result the 3 films feel schizophrenic at best.

Not to mention just how much they cribbed from the OT as far as story structure goes which means that setting the New Republic as the embattled resistance yet again in the face of overwhelming Imperial/First Order odds feels like it doesn't work nearly as well as it did the first time.

This movie failed so badly at basic storytelling that their newly made up Force Dyad was immediately separated and had one half of the pair fight the big bad on their own.

And win.

altnameJag:
This movie failed so badly at basic storytelling that their newly made up Force Dyad was immediately separated and had one half of the pair fight the big bad on their own.

And win.

Y'know, the force dyad thing wouldn't have bothered me so much if the term was used beforehand. Like, Luke was aware of the connection between Rey and Ben, he could have brought it up then.

But it's not just that aspect that bothers me, it's that the fights against Palpatine have gotten dumber. In Return, Luke only wins because he turned his father back to the Light Side - there's something to be said where compassion is what grants Luke victory rather than brute force. In Revenge, it's a slugfest, but there's a sense that this is something special, the Sith-Jedi conflict coming to a head, and the pillars of democracy literally being destroyed in the process (how the senate seats are tossed around, symbolizing the end of the Republic). Even Palpatine's "unlimited power!" scene with Mace has some weight because it shows just how far the Jedi have let their arrogance blind them.

But this? This is just Rey using lightsabers to reflect Force lightning. That's it. There's no deeper theme or message here. It's just a light show.

Kwak:

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

What level of sjw persecution complex do you have to be on to believe something so pathetic?

Yeah, I have to agree, from what I've seen the SJWs are mad too because either the movie is depicting spousal abuse in a positive light or condemns an abused boy right as he was about to become good (seen some crazy SJW reactions to Ben biting the dust, like, super out there insane where people are unable to eat/sleep and need to take pills and so on lmao, someone apparently even stalked the actor portraying him and gave him a carving of his (the actor's, not the stalker's) dog).

You could make that argument with the second movie (admiral purple hair was a prime example) but in this one there's something for everyone to hate lol.

evilthecat:

That's the thing though, Gaston is not (traditionally) masculine.

Sure, he's built and has body hair and his vocal pitch is fairly low. But he also constantly checks himself out in any reflective surface. He poses in casual conversation. His motions and voice are unusually florid. Again, he's not just a guy who happens to be hot. He's a dandy.

So that's one cherry-picked gif. He's vain - ok; are you saying vanity is never a straight masculine trait?

evilthecat:
His entire identity is an affectation, which is kind of the point. "Real men" are beasts, not dandies.

According to who, exactly?

evilthecat:
If your argument that Jafar is not femme is to compare him to Cruella de Vil, a character who is a parody of the supposed vanity, narcissism and decadence of urban socialites, whose motivation and character is defined largely around her clothes and who looks and acts like a drag queen, a literally parody of hyperfemininity practiced primarily by gay men, I think you've kind of shot your own argument in the dick.

Cruella is villainous and/or a figure of fun because she LACKS traditional femininity.

evilthecat:
I've pointed multiple times to the existence of two distinct forms of homophobia, one historical and one current. The problem is that I actually prefer Disney's old homophobia to Disney's new homophobia, so for me what you're describing isn't progress.

This is coming across more and more like painting the bullseyes around the bullet holes. Where is the homophobia, overt or otherwise, in the crop of modern Disney villains?

Also, could I press you to respond to the point I and EvilRoy were making earlier - a lot of the traits exhibited by these classic villains could be described as lampooning the American view of traditional European stuffiness, arrogance, pomp and haughtiness? That's evidence of historic and national rivalry, not necessarily queer bias.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Gorfias:
I thought FA was fun forgettable popcorn film until I really thought about how disappointed in it I was. There was no progress (intentionally). We've watched 6 movies so far, and now we're right back to where we were in 1977. Even Palpatine is back! I was also outraged that they had an opportunity to put our 3 heroes together again and blew it. The Last Jedi had tried some things that are interesting. Anyone should be able to learn to use the force if it is a metaphor for becoming like a Samurai. Rey's parents need not be anyone special. Next interesting idea: get rid of the light/dark dichotomy. But they appear to have chickened out. So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

Why would any movie be a "hate letter" to literally half of the world's population?

To wage war against a people, it helps to dehumanize them. So, Hollywood is doing its share.

Kwak:

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

What level of sjw persecution complex do you have to be on to believe something so pathetic?

You do know California has passed a law REQUIRING bigotry against men in forming Corporate boards.

I think the attempt to erase Luke and Han is further evidence of a problem. I do not buy someone thought it a good idea money making wise, to kill the past on a nostalgia property! So, the alternative: image

Dreiko:

Kwak:

Gorfias:
So, all that is left is to see the movie as an open hate letter to men and boys. A salvo in the war against them. I understand ROS is about trying to write Luke Skywalker out of existence. I think I'll pass.

What level of sjw persecution complex do you have to be on to believe something so pathetic?

Yeah, I have to agree, from what I've seen the SJWs are mad too because either the movie is depicting spousal abuse in a positive light or condemns an abused boy right as he was about to become good (seen some crazy SJW reactions to Ben biting the dust, like, super out there insane where people are unable to eat/sleep and need to take pills and so on lmao, someone apparently even stalked the actor portraying him and gave him a carving of his (the actor's, not the stalker's) dog).

You could make that argument with the second movie (admiral purple hair was a prime example) but in this one there's something for everyone to hate lol.

Agreed sorta. They tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one. A movie that should have made about $3 billion is going to make about $1. Heads should roll. But you appear to be saying I am suffering a persecution complex and ... I think I am right. And I hear the SJWs without dismissing them too. "Ben" literally is a mass murderer. And she kisses him? BTW: I'm not too fond of the idea of redeeming Vader either. Another mass murderer. He couldn't murder his own son, so all is forgiven now? The extended Universe of books did this better. I think it was Ben that in a moment of clairvoyance realizes he must surrender to the dark side as the only way to save the Galaxy, as Vader does killing Palpetine.

Interesting analysis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3xQdfcoOQ&t=

Have y'all seen the "somehow Palpatine has returned" meme's ? Great writing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVRLZ43mVBM&fbclid=

All I can really say at this point is that the worst part of all of it is how they went out of their way to ignore or retcon nearly everything that occurred in The Last Jedi in this movie. I don't care whether you like TLJ or didn't, the fact is The Rise of Skywalker would've been a much much better and more coherent movie had they simply followed through with what TLJ set up in it's plot instead of acting like TLJ didn't exist. The Trilogy as a whole is now worse as a direct result of Rise of Skywalker.

Rian Johnson did not write JJ Abrams into a corner, The Last Jedi had plenty there that JJ Abrams could've built off of, even Palpatine coming back could've fit just fine into everything. JJ Abrams refused to make use of what Rian Johnson put up and RoS is a much worse film than it could've been because of it.

immortalfrieza:

Rian Johnson did not write JJ Abrams into a corner, The Last Jedi had plenty there that JJ Abrams could've built off of, even Palpatine coming back could've fit just fine into everything. JJ Abrams refused to make use of what Rian Johnson put up and RoS is a much worse film than it could've been because of it.

Even Palpatine coming back, while not the worst thing in the world, is iffy for me. I could have bought it if there was even the slightest hint of him surviving in TFA or Last Jedi, but there simply isn't. And it undercuts TFA for me, because one of the most interesting ideas in the film (what few of them there were) was the idea of the Dark Side operating through proxies. First the Sith, then the Empire, now the First Order. With Palpatine coming back, it undercuts this idea, in that everything that's gone wrong for the setting since Episode I can be lain at his feet. This isn't inherently a bad idea, but I've seen it done poorly before, and it's done poorly here.

But that aside, you're right, in that Rise discards elements from Last Jedi. Namely that:

a) The Dark Lord schtick is old (see Snoke being killed off unceremoniously). I wouldn't have objected to learning about Snoke, but Rise recontextualizes him as part of Palpatine's plan. Last Jedi tried to break free from the dark lord stuff, Rise forces it right back in.

b) Last Jedi emphasizes the idea that anyone can be a hero, that one's worth isn't determined by blood. Rey's parents were "nobodies," but she's still a powerful Force user. Rise undercuts this with the whole granddaughter of Palpatine nonsense.

c) Last Jedi had something to say on the importance of myths, that even if one can't live up to the myth surrounding them, that mythology has worth of its own. We see that with Luke's arc, and we see it with the final shot in the film. My anticipation of Rise was that it would build on this, showing how Luke's actions have inspired the galaxy to take on the First Order. What's so bizzare about Rise is that it kind of does this (one of the most powerful lines in the film is "they're just people," as the galaxy comes to Exigal), but it's actions that have nothing to do with Luke's sacrifice. They're there because Lando flew to the Core Systems.

Last Jedi was far from perfect, but it actually had things to say, and IMO, said them well overall. Rise didn't have to be subversive, but it didn't have to be so damn SAFE either. :(

immortalfrieza:
All I can really say at this point is that the worst part of all of it is how they went out of their way to ignore or retcon nearly everything that occurred in The Last Jedi in this movie. I don't care whether you like TLJ or didn't, the fact is The Rise of Skywalker would've been a much much better and more coherent movie had they simply followed through with what TLJ set up in it's plot instead of acting like TLJ didn't exist. The Trilogy as a whole is now worse as a direct result of Rise of Skywalker.

Rian Johnson did not write JJ Abrams into a corner, The Last Jedi had plenty there that JJ Abrams could've built off of, even Palpatine coming back could've fit just fine into everything. JJ Abrams refused to make use of what Rian Johnson put up and RoS is a much worse film than it could've been because of it.

What did TLJ set up exactly? Luke's arc finishes when he decides to get involved again and sacrifice himself. The Kylo/Rey team up was teased and slapped down in the same scene it appears. Holdo dies, Snoke dies, Phasma dies, all inconsequentially. Finn Poe and Rose accomplish nothing and may as well not been in the film. TLJ sets up nothing. Rey's supposed lack of lineage is fine but you can't make a film out of that so the Palpatine ass pull was inevitable as soon as Snoke died. The cluster fuck came from TLJ "tearing it all down".

Dansen:

immortalfrieza:
All I can really say at this point is that the worst part of all of it is how they went out of their way to ignore or retcon nearly everything that occurred in The Last Jedi in this movie. I don't care whether you like TLJ or didn't, the fact is The Rise of Skywalker would've been a much much better and more coherent movie had they simply followed through with what TLJ set up in it's plot instead of acting like TLJ didn't exist. The Trilogy as a whole is now worse as a direct result of Rise of Skywalker.

Rian Johnson did not write JJ Abrams into a corner, The Last Jedi had plenty there that JJ Abrams could've built off of, even Palpatine coming back could've fit just fine into everything. JJ Abrams refused to make use of what Rian Johnson put up and RoS is a much worse film than it could've been because of it.

What did TLJ set up exactly? Luke's arc finishes when he decides to get involved again and sacrifice himself. The Kylo/Rey team up was teased and slapped down in the same scene it appears. Holdo dies, Snoke dies, Phasma dies, all inconsequentially. Finn Poe and Rose accomplish nothing and may as well not been in the film. TLJ sets up nothing. Rey's supposed lack of lineage is fine but you can't make a film out of that so the Palpatine ass pull was inevitable as soon as Snoke died. The cluster fuck came from TLJ "tearing it all down".

Poe was being taught to become a better leader through screwing up. Rey and Kylo would have teamed up, just like eventually Vader and Luke teamed up after being slapped down in the scene it was teased. That slap you detest was an exact copy of Empire.

The force was awakening in others that werent Skywalker or Palapatine. They should have been rising up from the inspirational survival at the end of Last Jedi. Think of Mao's march which destroyed 90% of his forces but won him China. I personally was hoping that a new organization, like the grey Jedis, would have been created. Because both the Jedi and Sith are evil to varying degrees. Someone who actually cared about the people would have been nice.

Nobody knows what to do about Finn. He should have been recruiting fellow deserters. So I definitely agree with you there.

Other than being used as bait, what was the point of Han, Chewie and Leia in Empire Stikes Back? They could have been cut and it would have been a better movie

Haven't seen it yet, but spoiled myself cos really star wars ain't that important. So far it sounds highly reminiscent of how Alien Covenant basically erased Prometheus in a desperate attempt to bow to fan pressure, killing off any potential intrigue in the process. I'll still watch it at some point cos big budget spectacle remains entertaining after a few doses of THC regardless of narrative foibles, and the characters are quite likeable. Though though be honest, I never saw what people found interesting about Snoke. He seemed the most generic of any generic fantasy big-bad guy, unless I missed some important detail somewhere.

What baffles me is how star wars has accumulated such a massive fanbase who generate an infinite stream of arguments online and seem to be paying the bills of committed YouTubers on the franchise alone. It just doesn't seem to have much worth discussing really. All arguments tend to boil down to is events and who remembered them the bestest. Well, before the Culture WarsTM naturally gravitated towards everything popular. I can understand other nerd passions creating extensive chatter, like star trek, due to intelligent themes and ideas fueling the imagination. And comics to an extent also. But there's hardly anything there in star wars. It's themes are out-nuanced by pretty much all of Pixar's output and all I ever see is wasted potential due to the highly conservative nature of fan expectations. I wondered if the EU helped with it's unique form of crowdsourced lore-building, but rarely do I see that in discussion. There's so many other dumb sci-fi films with way more discussion potential that avoid this vast toxic kerfuffle, so what gives? I'd go so far to say a film such as Lucy is one of them. Yes it's built on the foundation of a hugely dumb premise, but so is star wars!

Rogue One had huge promise, but it turned out to be fan wank, for some reason omitting any character for the fated people within whom are all played by talented performers which I respect, but felt nothing for when they died. Is it because they needed the PG13 rating and showing all people die on screen whom the viewer emotionally connected with would've raised it? The mainline series presented character very clearly, so it is a bit of a mystery to me still.
The Last Jedi I literally had no expectations for, so subversion wasn't an issue. But it did what I'd kinda been hoping for a while which is moving away from buckling to fan wank, and, after Rogue One, it was relieving to be with actual characters again. It was no less dumb than the rest of the series, in fact it gave hope for a fresher path!

In the end, they're just simple spectacle movies. And why won't they do more with black holes?? The most interesting mysteries loitering around space allow infinite potential for creativity to flow, but so much space fiction including star wars just don't bother at all. They're scary and destructive too...perfect for cartoonishly evil plans! Interstellar was a godsend in that regard. Oh well. Back to...no wait! One more musing...what have star wars fans got against the concept of a person surviving alone on alien milk amongst other foraged foods? It's like one of the most logical elements I've seen the IP throw out there.

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