So... is Baby Yoda a M/Gary Sue

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He's throwing around the Force like nobodies business, including healing people, without anyone teaching him. He is definitely well loved. Also, has about as many lines as Rey /sarcasm. (Sort of.)

Also, is Baby Yoda male or female? I didn't really want to assume their gender, so I added a slash in the title.

The savior of the toy aisle.

I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience. Baby Yoda being non human makes that very hard. Plus you pretty much always need some sort of very successful romantic angle, so until there's a Yoda harem I'd say no. Honestly he's closer to a walking plot device, maybe even macguffin, than a character.

Meiam:
I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience. Baby Yoda being non human makes that very hard.

Yeah, say that to the thousands of Sonic OC creators.

Drathnoxis:

Meiam:
I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience. Baby Yoda being non human makes that very hard.

Yeah, say that to the thousands of Sonic OC creators.

I think the most important part of that is Baby Yoda. Sonic OC come straight into the world with their own hip and "completely original" character traits, usually are very important to saving the day, and end up becoming one of the most trusted Characters ever in the Sonic universe.

Baby Yoda is powerful, but very much a baby. People telling it what to do, carrying it around, and basically treating it like a nuke they want to possess. That makes it a Sentient Plot Device more than a M/Gary Sue.

Also, sidebar. Preface this with me being a Nintendo Fanboy growing up. But I really do not get the reason why so many people wanted to be in the sonic universe. The character ran really fast to the right side of the screen.

Ok. That sounds... interesting.

I guess I have to be a Sonic fan to get it, but I struggle to see what there is to be be a fan about anyway. Well, as long as people are happy.

ObsidianJones:

Also, sidebar. Preface this with me being a Nintendo Fanboy growing up. But I really do not get the reason why so many people wanted to be in the sonic universe. The character ran really fast to the right side of the screen.

Ok. That sounds... interesting.

I guess I have to be a Sonic fan to get it, but I struggle to see what there is to be be a fan about anyway. Well, as long as people are happy.

There was this brief period when the Sonic series tried to be plot heavy that lasted for about... give or take, 4 games. There was Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Adventure 2, debatably Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, and most definitely Sonic 06 (which is the main reason Sonic games are not like that anymore).

During that period the Sanic games had a sprawling cast of characters, and those anime as hell plots about ancient monsters and secret government experiments and, that one time, aliens... hell, it even had characters portrayed as kinda, sorta sexual. By which I mean they had a bat with prominent cleavage. Anyway, these are mostly what people think of, when they make Sonic OCs. Well, that or the comics or the 90s cartoon. Like, not the Pingas one, the one where he was a resistance fighter.

ObsidianJones:

I guess I have to be a Sonic fan to get it, but I struggle to see what there is to be be a fan about anyway. Well, as long as people are happy.

In the 90s I was a huge Sonic fan. HUUUUGE. Obsessed, as my exasperated parents would probably have told you. I would play the games over and over for hours, and when I was eventually forced off the console I would read the manuals, draw characters from the box art, design my own levels on paper, make elaborate lists and rankings of levels by difficulty, best music, number of secrets, etc. Borderline spectrum behaviour, basically.

And yet it never crossed my mind to self-insert. I liked Sonic precisely because it was clean, sparkly, uncomplicated escapism. I wanted to play as Sonic, I didn't want to muddy the waters by forcing a crummy Batou The Hedgehog OC into the perfectly serviceable and already fleshed out expanded universe.

Perhaps this was because this was all pre-'00s, but the very idea of OC wasn't really in the public consciousness back then. I feel that started to flourish well after the 16 bit heyday, when online message boards started being a thing and saddos realised they could create and share a "persona" with the world. Were Furries a thing before the millennium, for that matter? I'm sure a load of obscure fetishes only because known of due to the internet, too.

ObsidianJones:

Drathnoxis:

Meiam:
I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience. Baby Yoda being non human makes that very hard.

Yeah, say that to the thousands of Sonic OC creators.

Snip

I was really just addressing the assertion that being non-human makes it difficult for the character to be a self insert, not whether or not babby Yoda is a Sue.

I think the thing that makes him not is that it exhausts him. He holds a space rhino for like ten seconds and slips into a coma. Ray holds a starship for entire minutes against a Sith and just runs off, none-the-worse-for-wear, then does space gymnastics that would have made Neo go 'Whoa'

Even OG Yoda after moving Luke's X-Wing was visibly exhausted from it. If Baby Yoda was a Mary Sue, he/she would have held the space rhino for minutes, used the force to summon a blaster, 360 no-scoped the Rhino, did a triple salchow off the backbeam, scored the winning goal in the space world cup, fixed Apollo 11 with a force sneeze, made his/her own soup 'cause they're independent and strong, and saved their own self from the Empire because they're not a damsel that needs a man to save them, all the while holding down a 9-5 job as an editor of a Fashion Magazine in the BIG SPACE CITY.

The point Im making isn't that Mary Sues are just effortlessly powerful, its that they're invulnerable and never any consequences to their risks. Hell Rey, in defiance of the star wars trilogy hero, never gets her hand cut off.

Drathnoxis:

ObsidianJones:

Drathnoxis:
Yeah, say that to the thousands of Sonic OC creators.

Snip

I was really just addressing the assertion that being non-human makes it difficult for the character to be a self insert, not whether or not babby Yoda is a Sue.

How dare you come here with your "facts" and render my masterful point moot?!

But seriously, gotcha. Sentiment withdrawn.

All this time I thought baby yoda was... you know, baby yoda. He's just some guy?

I don't watch star wars, but you can't avoid the memes.

It's a baby.

trunkage:
Also, is Baby Yoda male or female? I didn't really want to assume their gender, so I added a slash in the title.

Do we even know if Yoda is male? Frank Oz is essentially doing his Miss Piggy when voicing him (or her!).

Wintermute:
All this time I thought baby yoda was... you know, baby yoda. He's just some guy?

I don't watch star wars, but you can't avoid the memes.

Jon Favreau, the creator of the show, told Disney off for using the term baby Yoda as it's clearly not in the story. Which is completely silly as all Disney is doing is exploiting a meme. They didn't create that mene.

I mean, it's still exploitative. Just not as nefarious as people make Disney out as

Silentpony:
I think the thing that makes him not is that it exhausts him. He holds a space rhino for like ten seconds and slips into a coma. Ray holds a starship for entire minutes against a Sith and just runs off, none-the-worse-for-wear, then does space gymnastics that would have made Neo go 'Whoa'

Even OG Yoda after moving Luke's X-Wing was visibly exhausted from it. If Baby Yoda was a Mary Sue, he/she would have held the space rhino for minutes, used the force to summon a blaster, 360 no-scoped the Rhino, did a triple salchow off the backbeam, scored the winning goal in the space world cup, fixed Apollo 11 with a force sneeze, made his/her own soup 'cause they're independent and strong, and saved their own self from the Empire because they're not a damsel that needs a man to save them, all the while holding down a 9-5 job as an editor of a Fashion Magazine in the BIG SPACE CITY.

The point Im making isn't that Mary Sues are just effortlessly powerful, its that they're invulnerable and never any consequences to their risks. Hell Rey, in defiance of the star wars trilogy hero, never gets her hand cut off.

So, breathing heavy after using the force and cutting her arm off would have cured her issue?

trunkage:

Silentpony:
I think the thing that makes him not is that it exhausts him. He holds a space rhino for like ten seconds and slips into a coma. Ray holds a starship for entire minutes against a Sith and just runs off, none-the-worse-for-wear, then does space gymnastics that would have made Neo go 'Whoa'

Even OG Yoda after moving Luke's X-Wing was visibly exhausted from it. If Baby Yoda was a Mary Sue, he/she would have held the space rhino for minutes, used the force to summon a blaster, 360 no-scoped the Rhino, did a triple salchow off the backbeam, scored the winning goal in the space world cup, fixed Apollo 11 with a force sneeze, made his/her own soup 'cause they're independent and strong, and saved their own self from the Empire because they're not a damsel that needs a man to save them, all the while holding down a 9-5 job as an editor of a Fashion Magazine in the BIG SPACE CITY.

The point Im making isn't that Mary Sues are just effortlessly powerful, its that they're invulnerable and never any consequences to their risks. Hell Rey, in defiance of the star wars trilogy hero, never gets her hand cut off.

So, breathing heavy after using the force and cutting her arm off would have cured her issue?

Actually yeah, that would have fixed a number of issues. The second movie of every Star Wars Trilogy is the good guys get their shit kicked in, the Empire is on the rise, and the hero looses a hand.
Empire Strikes Back. Han in Carbonite, the Rebels forced from the Galaxy, Luke looses a hand, the Empire is on the rise.
Attack of the Clones. Anakin on the way to the Dark Side. The Sith start a war they control both sides on. The Jedi are forced to be part of a war. Anakin loose a hand.
The Last Jedi. The Alliance is all but destroyed. Kylo assumes command of the Galaxy. Fucking LUKE SKYWALKER dies. And Rey...slips into Kylo's Force DMs and gets to see some space tits.

That's it. and up until the second to last scene in the entire Trilogy Rey is invulnerable. And even then, she's perfectly fine. There was no low point for her. The heroes journey is denial of the call, acceptance, initial success, failure and abandonment of the call, and then eventual return and victory. Anakin fails at this, which is why he's a tragic anti-hero. Luke succeeds, which is why in South Park he's sitting next to Jesus and Santa Claus as examples of folk heroes. And Rey...just skips to the end, and wins.

If the whole explanation for the baby's powers is "because he's just THAT awesome!" and is shown to have no notable flaws on top of it once he grows up then sure, if you have an actual lore explaining it in sensible terms that are consistent with the overarching narrative, the no.

The issue isn't as much that some chars are strong, it's that they either don't earn or asspull that trait for no reason that makes sense. Baby Yoda is not even the protagonist anyhow, so if anything he'd be the character who trains someone super powerful, so he needs to be able of performing that feat and we see his backstory that sets this up.

Silentpony:

trunkage:

Silentpony:
I think the thing that makes him not is that it exhausts him. He holds a space rhino for like ten seconds and slips into a coma. Ray holds a starship for entire minutes against a Sith and just runs off, none-the-worse-for-wear, then does space gymnastics that would have made Neo go 'Whoa'

Even OG Yoda after moving Luke's X-Wing was visibly exhausted from it. If Baby Yoda was a Mary Sue, he/she would have held the space rhino for minutes, used the force to summon a blaster, 360 no-scoped the Rhino, did a triple salchow off the backbeam, scored the winning goal in the space world cup, fixed Apollo 11 with a force sneeze, made his/her own soup 'cause they're independent and strong, and saved their own self from the Empire because they're not a damsel that needs a man to save them, all the while holding down a 9-5 job as an editor of a Fashion Magazine in the BIG SPACE CITY.

The point Im making isn't that Mary Sues are just effortlessly powerful, its that they're invulnerable and never any consequences to their risks. Hell Rey, in defiance of the star wars trilogy hero, never gets her hand cut off.

So, breathing heavy after using the force and cutting her arm off would have cured her issue?

Actually yeah, that would have fixed a number of issues. The second movie of every Star Wars Trilogy is the good guys get their shit kicked in, the Empire is on the rise, and the hero looses a hand.
Empire Strikes Back. Han in Carbonite, the Rebels forced from the Galaxy, Luke looses a hand, the Empire is on the rise.
Attack of the Clones. Anakin on the way to the Dark Side. The Sith start a war they control both sides on. The Jedi are forced to be part of a war. Anakin loose a hand.
The Last Jedi. The Alliance is all but destroyed. Kylo assumes command of the Galaxy. Fucking LUKE SKYWALKER dies. And Rey...slips into Kylo's Force DMs and gets to see some space tits.

That's it. and up until the second to last scene in the entire Trilogy Rey is invulnerable. And even then, she's perfectly fine. There was no low point for her. The heroes journey is denial of the call, acceptance, initial success, failure and abandonment of the call, and then eventual return and victory. Anakin fails at this, which is why he's a tragic anti-hero. Luke succeeds, which is why in South Park he's sitting next to Jesus and Santa Claus as examples of folk heroes. And Rey...just skips to the end, and wins.

I guess I see most major characters as having plot armour. Even with his hand cut off, I never thought Luke was in any real danger. Sure, it hurts buddy. Don't worry, the story will make you kill him anyway because your too important to die. It's probably why I like Infinity War and Endgame. Major characters were destined to die. No one had plot armour (well, except for the stupidly planned out further movies which kinda ruined the experience. But those weren't the main characters of the first Avengers)

And let me be clear. I do like consequences to actions. For example, Rey using too much power and blowing up a ship was probably the best part of the new movie. It was also undercut a couple of minutes later. Luke gets his hand cut off but its undercut a couple of minutes later with robo-hand. Thor's eye is another example.

Compare this to Civil War where heroes had to go into hiding or ankle monitored. That wasn't fixed for a bunch of movies and had actual real impact on the story. Rhodes injury is a half way in-between. Instead of a plot device curing him, he had to work at it, getting rehab. But it was only a scene so didn't effect the story much.

trunkage:
SNIP

I'm not sure I have a problem with 'plot armor' as it is. I mean I think its reasonable to assume the main character isn't going to die, and the bad guy looses in the end.
For Rey it feels like she has...'story armor'. She's immune to the story. Anything that is supposed to change the story either rolls off her or is immediately undone in the next scene.

I've yet to see the Mandalorian so I'll have to reserve comment on that for now.

As to Rey, things did come far to effortlessly for her and the problem is that they didn't seize that as a plot point.

Have the Emperor there in front of her "have you never wondered why you are so powerful my dear, that abilities come so easily? You draw your power from me. Join me in the dark side and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" (yeah I suck at dialogue.)

Use it essentially as the Last Temptation of Rey. Of course she'd turn down the Emperor and win the day but she would find her powers greatly reduced. With the help of the Jedi texts and Luke's force ghost she starts to learn those abilities again at a little moisture farm on Tatooine.

votemarvel:
I've yet to see the Mandalorian so I'll have to reserve comment on that for now.

As to Rey, things did come far to effortlessly for her and the problem is that they didn't seize that as a plot point.

Have the Emperor there in front of her "have you never wondered why you are so powerful my dear, that abilities come so easily? You draw your power from me. Join me in the dark side and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" (yeah I suck at dialogue.)

Use it essentially as the Last Temptation of Rey. Of course she'd turn down the Emperor and win the day but she would find her powers greatly reduced. With the help of the Jedi texts and Luke's force ghost she starts to learn those abilities again at a little moisture farm on Tatooine.

I'd have been down for that. And I can totally hear Ian McDiarmid saying that.

votemarvel:
I've yet to see the Mandalorian so I'll have to reserve comment on that for now.

As to Rey, things did come far to effortlessly for her and the problem is that they didn't seize that as a plot point.

Have the Emperor there in front of her "have you never wondered why you are so powerful my dear, that abilities come so easily? You draw your power from me. Join me in the dark side and become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" (yeah I suck at dialogue.)

Use it essentially as the Last Temptation of Rey. Of course she'd turn down the Emperor and win the day but she would find her powers greatly reduced. With the help of the Jedi texts and Luke's force ghost she starts to learn those abilities again at a little moisture farm on Tatooine.

That is how it should have been. Props

Meiam:
I think for someone to be a Gary/Mary Sue there need to be the element of self insertion for the author/audience.

Not really. The only real requirement for a Sue character is that their presence bends the established rules of the universe, making everything to orbit around them (like a gravitational well) when it really shouldn't. Call me when Baby Yoda either defeats Darth Vader or brings him back from the Dark Side.

I'm ganna go with Caitsith and the Overly Sarcastic Productions' Red on the definition, or at least when it becomes problematic.

Ridiculously overpowered charecters are a dime a dozen. John Whick, Superman, Master Chief, Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn, exct. exct.

Those with nigh invulnerable plot armor as well. James Bond, Conan the Barbarian, Wiley Coyote, eect..

Or are just too perfect.

MCU Captain America, Jesus Christ, Fropy.

Even self inserts can be great. Nabeshin, Hermony Granger, J. Jonnah Jamison.

The sue at its core revolves around the character being the most awesome thing since ever as its start and end point and does little if anything to expand to anything more meaningful than that.

As is, just going off Watch Mojo, we don't have that problem. Over powered with the force, well that seems par from the course with Yoda's race, and even then the kid only has limited use of it it before passing out. He can heal, force choke, move objects and so on, but stopping the rhino took alot out of him in the same way of Conosuba's Megemi gets whiped out when she does explotion magic.

He's curiosu about things and acts just how a cat or toddler would act (or better yet, a combination of the two).

He also shows signs of fear, joy, confusion, embarisment, and now I'm coppying daddy moments.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.

Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Thank you. This is the smartest comment in this thread. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

PS: Yes, it's possible that the author wanted themselves to be a magical alien baby. I have seen weirder authors out there.

EDIT: And if the term Mary Sue becomes meaningless, so be it. It already is heavily misused and rarely for constructive criticism.

saint of m:
Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn

You say that as if there were any other possible builds for the Dragonborn.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.

I'd say that Artoo is more sue-ish than BB-8.

twistedmic:

I'd say that Artoo is more sue-ish than BB-8.

Heck, yeah!

Baby Yoda is Spam for me. Can't go one second with someone posting a meme or reference to him.

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Actual serious question. Why is everyone so worried about terms being used so much they are useless? (As some other example of terms wearing out their use {apparently} sexist and racist)

twistedmic:

saint of m:
Stealth Archer build of Dragonborn

You say that as if there were any other possible builds for the Dragonborn.

If anything is a sue in starwars, its probably BB-8 and even then I will defend my soccer ball of doom till the end of of the internet.

I'd say that Artoo is more sue-ish than BB-8.

Sword and Board, Destruction Magic and Alteration Heavy with light armor, run around naked

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Honestly see little fruitful use of the term at all so kinda wish people would stop using it for a different reason entirely. Sort of like a who even cares if it is at this point, it's an annoying shortcut for people to not really explain why they hate something

Tho I took this thread as a joke

trunkage:

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Actual serious question. Why is everyone so worried about terms being used so much they are useless? (As some other example of terms wearing out their use {apparently} sexist and racist)

In this case I don't know.

In the other cases I see it as fake hand wringing to try to slap down an accusation they disagree with. In this case I really can't see the investment anyone would have in doing so for baby Yoda lol

The Decapitated Centaur:

Agema:
Can we please stop calling everything left, right and centre a M/Gary Sue? All it's ever going to achieve is to render the term useless.

Bearing in mind a Mary Sue means an author insertion wish fulfillment of perfection, in order for Baby Yoda to be one, we would have to propose that the author(s) want themselves to be a green, alien baby (with magic powers). Does this strike anyone as likely? No? Then it's not a Mary Sue.

It is not author insertion wish fulfillment just to create an idealised, super-powerful character with impeccable morals.

Honestly see little fruitful use of the term at all so kinda wish people would stop using it for a different reason entirely. Sort of like a who even cares if it is at this point, it's an annoying shortcut for people to not really explain why they hate something

Tho I took this thread as a joke

Not necessarily a joke, more like a shower thought. But no, its not meant to be serious

But then, I don't hand wring over terms like racist, PC, Mary Sue or White Genocide. But I understand that it does for others. I should have expected it

And I do find it funny how certain pundits think that Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue when her big flaw is how arrogant and rash she is, she clearly gets caught through her stupidity and no one really loves her in the movie. But she's an OP woman, so she must be a Mary Sue. (Thus, I'm also gauging others understanding of the term)

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