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SupahEwok:

Hawki:

SupahEwok:

Depends on which Fallout games.

Most of them?

Or the main series I guess.

Not for the ones developed by a certain studio whose name rhymes with "Chethesda."

Surely Fallout 3 & 4 still count though. I mean, what's the main plot of each Fallout game?

-Fallout 1: Find the water chip
-Fallout 2: Find the GECK
-Fallout 3: Find your dad
-New Vegas: Find the chip
-Fallout 4: Find your son

Course that's a simplification, but surely Fallout 3/4 have more in common with the other games than, say, Shelter or 76.

SupahEwok:

Phoenixmgs:
It's not that anime can't be great and amazing (Stand Alone Complex), but the chance of finding great stuff is far lower than other places.

It depends strictly on how you're looking. There's just as much great anime as great anything else. Anime fans are just terrible and you can't use them as a source for anime with artistic merit.

The extra trouble I have to go through to vet good anime is part of why I don't watch it much, but it's certainly doable if you have the will to do so.

I definitely think anime has a larger percentage of work that's say below 7/10 than other sources of TV. Just about all the popular anime is straight garbage and best of all-time lists are filled with bad shows too. Unless there's a good professional critic site for anime, how do you even "vet" it? If someone says Rob Zombie's The Devil's Rejects is a masterpiece, I can simply go to RottenTomatoes and see that it was rated "rotten" by critics so I'd be immediately skeptical about it. I'm only using that as an example because apparently Rob Zombie movies are overrated from Silvanus' post.

Phoenixmgs:
Just about all the popular anime is straight garbage and best of all-time lists are filled with bad shows too.

SupahEwok:
Anime fans are just terrible and you can't use them as a source for anime with artistic merit.

Bolded this time, for emphasis.

There is no tradition of professional criticism of anime in English, just fans and trumped up fans who write for glorified blogs. There has never been a Roger Ebert of anime. If you want to figure out what the good anime is, you have to either know people with actually good taste who can recommend things to you, or you have to give things a try for an episode or two and recognize what will be a waste of time or not. With experience, you'll be able to sort out what's trash and what's not mostly from trailers, written descriptions, and fan reaction (you can look out the earlier argument in here about "setting your expectations for anime" as an example of what typical anime fans like, and use that for warning signs).

Also, watch Baccanno! Although last I checked the rights to it were a mess, so if you wanna watch it you'll have to pay out the ass for an out of print DVD, or peruse alternative sources.

image

Phoenixmgs:

SupahEwok:

Phoenixmgs:
It's not that anime can't be great and amazing (Stand Alone Complex), but the chance of finding great stuff is far lower than other places.

It depends strictly on how you're looking. There's just as much great anime as great anything else. Anime fans are just terrible and you can't use them as a source for anime with artistic merit.

The extra trouble I have to go through to vet good anime is part of why I don't watch it much, but it's certainly doable if you have the will to do so.

I definitely think anime has a larger percentage of work that's say below 7/10 than other sources of TV. Just about all the popular anime is straight garbage and best of all-time lists are filled with bad shows too. Unless there's a good professional critic site for anime, how do you even "vet" it? If someone says Rob Zombie's The Devil's Rejects is a masterpiece, I can simply go to RottenTomatoes and see that it was rated "rotten" by critics so I'd be immediately skeptical about it. I'm only using that as an example because apparently Rob Zombie movies are overrated from Silvanus' post.

The issue is that a lot of amazingly good anime are completely unpenetrable if you've not spent the last decade or two of your life being super into the medium. So just expecting normies to grasp all the inside references and jokes is impossible (I bet not 10% of people got the Tsukihime reference in Re Zero's twin maid reveal episode...or even know what the hell tsukihime is for that matter (it's an early 2000 visual novel by the guy who'd go on to write fate/stay night))...but at the same time when analyzing something based on YOUR experience with it, you being someone who did in fact come into the show possessing all the necessary cultural context, you will indeed have immensely enjoyed it and hence will rate it way higher than an average normie would if they were to watch it.

I definitely disagree that such anime is "bad" simply because most people are incapable of fully getting it, but at the same time I wouldn't go on to recommend it to someone who I know won't really get the most out of the experience. I think a lot of people do this error where they just put out a list of their fav shows but they leave out how beginner friendly those shows are since they are used to discussing this sort of thing with other like-minded folks who all get it so when a normie comes upon the list and they go on to watch Lucky Star or the Monogatari series, they're left confused and with a negative image of anime. To put it in simpler terms, Monogatari is my fav series of the decade easily, and if you don't know what zettai ryouiki is don't you dare watch it lmao.

So yeah, relying on fan recommendation as a starting person needs to come with a lot of caveats. Not because anime fans somehow all have bad taste or anything else similarly ridiculously absurd, but because anime is a medium evolved out of a niche that still enjoys being all niche due to the heightened meaning that getting references from a show you and 3000 other people watched 15 years ago provides. So it's best to just trust your own gut and watch stuff you think is cool and just go from there.

SupahEwok:
There is no tradition of professional criticism of anime in English, just fans and trumped up fans who write for glorified blogs. There has never been a Roger Ebert of anime. If you want to figure out what the good anime is, you have to either know people with actually good taste who can recommend things to you, or you have to give things a try for an episode or two and recognize what will be a waste of time or not. With experience, you'll be able to sort out what's trash and what's not mostly from trailers, written descriptions, and fan reaction (you can look out the earlier argument in here about "setting your expectations for anime" as an example of what typical anime fans like, and use that for warning signs).

I'd have thought a major issue is that anime is primarily made by and for the Japanese with all the cultural context that the Japanese will have.

Therefore, there is likely to be a substantial difference in perception of anime by Americans, Europeans, etc. What they are appreciating or analysing may be rather different from what the intended audience are.

Agema:

SupahEwok:
There is no tradition of professional criticism of anime in English, just fans and trumped up fans who write for glorified blogs. There has never been a Roger Ebert of anime. If you want to figure out what the good anime is, you have to either know people with actually good taste who can recommend things to you, or you have to give things a try for an episode or two and recognize what will be a waste of time or not. With experience, you'll be able to sort out what's trash and what's not mostly from trailers, written descriptions, and fan reaction (you can look out the earlier argument in here about "setting your expectations for anime" as an example of what typical anime fans like, and use that for warning signs).

I'd have thought a major issue is that anime is primarily made by and for the Japanese with all the cultural context that the Japanese will have.

Therefore, there is likely to be a substantial difference in perception of anime by Americans, Europeans, etc. What they are appreciating or analysing may be rather different from what the intended audience are.

You'd think that, but the Japanese have their own frustrations about the modern anime industry. The reason why a bunch of trash gets put out (harems, 90% of isekai) is because otaku (obsessive social outcast) culture grew so much over the 90s and 00s. They're the ones who will buy all the merchandise, and most of the industry over time has morphed around them and their interests. Easy titillation ("fanservice"), masturbatory self-insert characters (Mary Sue-ism is hugely prevalent in anime), shallow characterization and a small stable of tropes used over and over again so that the viewer can be gratified without having to think.

There's anime that rises above these things, even popular anime (JoJo's counts, and I don't even care for JoJo's). So it's not "just" a cultural problem. It's an industry issue of pursuing a particular subculture with deep pockets and a willingness to spend.

Edit: Now, if you really want a spicy take, I'm gonna point out the overlap between (trash) anime's popularity with outcast culture in Japan, and it's popularity with outcast culture (incels, alt-right) in the West...

Also everyone should watch Baccano! Definitely my fave anime. I don't hate anime as an artform. I'm just fully aware of the state of its industry.

SupahEwok:

Also everyone should watch Baccano!

Glad to see Baccano! getting some more loving. The anachronisitic presentation takes a bit of getting used to, but once you get your head around that it's a fun watch. I'd also recommend the English dub of it because so much of the story focuses on 1930s New York gangsters and the voice actors feel like they're having so much fun with the material.

SupahEwok:
Also, watch Baccanno!

I shall check it out, there's not much else to do...

Dreiko:
The issue is that a lot of amazingly good anime are completely unpenetrable if you've not spent the last decade or two of your life being super into the medium. So just expecting normies to grasp all the inside references and jokes is impossible (I bet not 10% of people got the Tsukihime reference in Re Zero's twin maid reveal episode...or even know what the hell tsukihime is for that matter (it's an early 2000 visual novel by the guy who'd go on to write fate/stay night))...but at the same time when analyzing something based on YOUR experience with it, you being someone who did in fact come into the show possessing all the necessary cultural context, you will indeed have immensely enjoyed it and hence will rate it way higher than an average normie would if they were to watch it.

I definitely disagree that such anime is "bad" simply because most people are incapable of fully getting it, but at the same time I wouldn't go on to recommend it to someone who I know won't really get the most out of the experience. I think a lot of people do this error where they just put out a list of their fav shows but they leave out how beginner friendly those shows are since they are used to discussing this sort of thing with other like-minded folks who all get it so when a normie comes upon the list and they go on to watch Lucky Star or the Monogatari series, they're left confused and with a negative image of anime. To put it in simpler terms, Monogatari is my fav series of the decade easily, and if you don't know what zettai ryouiki is don't you dare watch it lmao.

So yeah, relying on fan recommendation as a starting person needs to come with a lot of caveats. Not because anime fans somehow all have bad taste or anything else similarly ridiculously absurd, but because anime is a medium evolved out of a niche that still enjoys being all niche due to the heightened meaning that getting references from a show you and 3000 other people watched 15 years ago provides. So it's best to just trust your own gut and watch stuff you think is cool and just go from there.

I'm not talking about anime that is bad because I don't get it, I'm talking about anime that is bad because it's fucking bad like aforementioned Elfen Lied. I also don't think something is bad or good due to getting or not getting references. I've never heard of someone saying XYZ show is only good if you get the references. It's like saying only hardcore comic book fans will like comic book shows/movies. If the show is only good because of references, it ain't a good show. Also, I quite enjoyed Excel Saga back in the day and it references anime.

Phoenixmgs:

SupahEwok:
Also, watch Baccanno!

I shall check it out, there's not much else to do...

Dreiko:
The issue is that a lot of amazingly good anime are completely unpenetrable if you've not spent the last decade or two of your life being super into the medium. So just expecting normies to grasp all the inside references and jokes is impossible (I bet not 10% of people got the Tsukihime reference in Re Zero's twin maid reveal episode...or even know what the hell tsukihime is for that matter (it's an early 2000 visual novel by the guy who'd go on to write fate/stay night))...but at the same time when analyzing something based on YOUR experience with it, you being someone who did in fact come into the show possessing all the necessary cultural context, you will indeed have immensely enjoyed it and hence will rate it way higher than an average normie would if they were to watch it.

I definitely disagree that such anime is "bad" simply because most people are incapable of fully getting it, but at the same time I wouldn't go on to recommend it to someone who I know won't really get the most out of the experience. I think a lot of people do this error where they just put out a list of their fav shows but they leave out how beginner friendly those shows are since they are used to discussing this sort of thing with other like-minded folks who all get it so when a normie comes upon the list and they go on to watch Lucky Star or the Monogatari series, they're left confused and with a negative image of anime. To put it in simpler terms, Monogatari is my fav series of the decade easily, and if you don't know what zettai ryouiki is don't you dare watch it lmao.

So yeah, relying on fan recommendation as a starting person needs to come with a lot of caveats. Not because anime fans somehow all have bad taste or anything else similarly ridiculously absurd, but because anime is a medium evolved out of a niche that still enjoys being all niche due to the heightened meaning that getting references from a show you and 3000 other people watched 15 years ago provides. So it's best to just trust your own gut and watch stuff you think is cool and just go from there.

I'm not talking about anime that is bad because I don't get it, I'm talking about anime that is bad because it's fucking bad like aforementioned Elfen Lied. I also don't think something is bad or good due to getting or not getting references. I've never heard of someone saying XYZ show is only good if you get the references. It's like saying only hardcore comic book fans will like comic book shows/movies. If the show is only good because of references, it ain't a good show. Also, I quite enjoyed Excel Saga back in the day and it references anime.

A lot of anime use anime conventions to pump tons of meaning into events. If you are not familiar with anime as a medium you will not catch all that stuff, it'll just seem strange or random and that's kinda where you'll go with it.

It's less like having a direct plot-reference where if you read book #23 of Thor you'll laugh at this one Avengers joke a bit harder. It's more like a language of communication anime uses through the use of various tropes and behaviors and speech patters and being able to comprehend what the show is trying to communicate on a more fundamental level through understanding all these things. It's less about knowing a particular series' lore and more about knowing the language of the medium and what it's communicating when it does X or Y.

When someone is just starting out, they're not yet fluent in those components of anime, but a veteran fan gets to enjoy them all and gets all the meaning from out of them, which is why you can have discrepancy between the two group's assessment of a specific show.

Dreiko:
A lot of anime use anime conventions to pump tons of meaning into events. If you are not familiar with anime as a medium you will not catch all that stuff, it'll just seem strange or random and that's kinda where you'll go with it.

It's less like having a direct plot-reference where if you read book #23 of Thor you'll laugh at this one Avengers joke a bit harder. It's more like a language of communication anime uses through the use of various tropes and behaviors and speech patters and being able to comprehend what the show is trying to communicate on a more fundamental level through understanding all these things. It's less about knowing a particular series' lore and more about knowing the language of the medium and what it's communicating when it does X or Y.

When someone is just starting out, they're not yet fluent in those components of anime, but a veteran fan gets to enjoy them all and gets all the meaning from out of them, which is why you can have discrepancy between the two group's assessment of a specific show.

There's nothing that can make Elfen Lied even OK let alone good. Outside of deconstructions, you really shouldn't need to know anything about the material. Even then, on the surface level, you should have something there of quality and "getting it" would take the work from decent/good to great. Sorta like how great kids movies are far more entertaining for adults while kids (aka novices/beginners) still enjoy the surface level stuff. There's also several anime that I'm completely done with before the 1st episode is over, they're that bad. I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

Phoenixmgs:
I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

...Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that, because FMA didn't do named moves. Alchemy in FMA is performed as wordlessly as bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra.

Phoenixmgs:
There's also several anime that I'm completely done with before the 1st episode is over, they're that bad. I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

Sorry, Phoenix, but I also call bullshit on that too. If you don't like FMA: Brotherhood (the more accurate version of the original manga), that's fine, but what you're saying is factually wrong. FMA may be a shounen anime/manga, but it does not call out attacks or moves like Yu Yu Hskusho, DBZ, Naruto, or Shaman King, etc. You really cheating yourself out of one the best anime in the 2010s. The themes of war and its effects on the soldiers and civilians, the cycle of vengeance, and what it means to be human. All themes are done very well, and better than a majority of those themes you see in the Gundam anime.

Asita:

Phoenixmgs:
I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

...Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that, because FMA didn't do named moves. Alchemy in FMA is performed as wordlessly as bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra.

Exactly. Though funny enough, LoK did have the DBZ bullshit you would see in most DBZ fan fics. I am mainly referring to the last few episodes of Season 2. Hell, the worst parts of DBZ in general.

Asita:

Phoenixmgs:
I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

...Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that, because FMA didn't do named moves. Alchemy in FMA is performed as wordlessly as bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra.

CoCage:
...Yeah, I'm calling bullshit on that, because FMA didn't do named moves.

https://vrv.co/watch/GYQ4M4216/Fullmetal-Alchemist-Brotherhood:Fullmetal-Alchemist

1st scene after the intro. I guess not calling about moves per se but alchemy stuff like "you did this without that!!!" Then, the art style goes full-on annoying anime stuff and back again.

Phoenixmgs:

1st scene after the intro. I guess not calling about moves per se but alchemy stuff like "you did this without that!!!" Then, the art style goes full-on annoying anime stuff and back again.

"Per se"? That's a reach, to say the least; one that would make Stretch Armstrong self-conscious. And what you claimed, that "half the dialogue was naming "moves"" is wholly false. What you're taking umbrage with is one of the characters alluding to the rules of the setting's magic, noting that the protagonist circumvents one of those rules. And before you brush that off as the protagonist simply being the special chosen one with special rule breaking powers, by the end of the episode it's also quite clear that he's not unique in that respect, as the same antagonist who drew attention to it figures out why the protagonist is able to do that after seeing another clue. Moreover, that's actually a crucial part of the protagonists' backstory that heavily informs their characterization and motivations.

Asita:

Phoenixmgs:

1st scene after the intro. I guess not calling about moves per se but alchemy stuff like "you did this without that!!!" Then, the art style goes full-on annoying anime stuff and back again.

"Per se"? That's a reach, to say the least; one that would make Stretch Armstrong self-conscious. And what you claimed, that "half the dialogue was naming "moves"" is wholly false. What you're taking umbrage with is one of the characters alluding to the rules of the setting's magic, noting that the protagonist circumvents one of those rules. And before you brush that off as the protagonist simply being the special chosen one with special rule breaking powers, by the end of the episode it's also quite clear that he's not unique in that respect, as the same antagonist who drew attention to it figures out why the protagonist is able to do that after seeing another clue. Moreover, that's actually a crucial part of the protagonists' backstory that heavily informs their characterization and motivations.

What he said.

Phoenix, I know you have super high and strict to obsurd standards, but give shit a chance. Whether you decide to do that or not is on you.

Asita:

Phoenixmgs:

1st scene after the intro. I guess not calling about moves per se but alchemy stuff like "you did this without that!!!" Then, the art style goes full-on annoying anime stuff and back again.

"Per se"? That's a reach, to say the least; one that would make Stretch Armstrong self-conscious. And what you claimed, that "half the dialogue was naming "moves"" is wholly false. What you're taking umbrage with is one of the characters alluding to the rules of the setting's magic, noting that the protagonist circumvents one of those rules. And before you brush that off as the protagonist simply being the special chosen one with special rule breaking powers, by the end of the episode it's also quite clear that he's not unique in that respect, as the same antagonist who drew attention to it figures out why the protagonist is able to do that after seeing another clue. Moreover, that's actually a crucial part of the protagonists' backstory that heavily informs their characterization and motivations.

It's what I remembered from over a week back watching 5 minutes of it. That's not how you do an introductory action scene, the most the needed to be said was "how'd you...?" so the audience knows the character is doing something special. I already know water freezes and boils, why are you telling me that? I don't care about equivalent exchange or transmutation circles less than 5 minutes into a show. You have the entirety of the series to explain that stuff over time. Just let the viewer take in what's going on and wonder how it works, the spectacle all you need at that point, have the characters gives signs of, you know, their "character" in the dialog so I start being interested in who they are. It's sorta akin to fantasy stories dropping all these proper names of people and places at the start, I don't care who these people and places are in the 1st 5 minutes. And, again, I'm not a fan of the art style switching to that "kiddie style" and back again.

CoCage:
What he said.

Phoenix, I know you have super high and strict to obsurd standards, but give shit a chance. Whether you decide to do that or not is on you.

I don't have high standards, I just finished the 1st season of Locke and Key, which is OK at best. The show didn't start with them explaining all the keys. It started with a guy inserting a key in his chest and turning to flames so the viewer is immediately wondering what's going on while watching the visually interesting part of seeing what I just described.

Phoenixmgs:

CoCage:
What he said.

Phoenix, I know you have super high and strict to obsurd standards, but give shit a chance. Whether you decide to do that or not is on you.

I don't have high standards, I just finished the 1st season of Locke and Key, which is OK at best. The show didn't start with them explaining all the keys. It started with a guy inserting a key in his chest and turning to flames so the viewer is immediately wondering what's going on while watching the visually interesting part of seeing what I just described.

If you can do that, then you can do FMA just fine.

Phoenixmgs:
That's not how you do an introductory action scene, the most the needed to be said was "how'd you...?" so the audience knows the character is doing something special.

That's one way to do it, but it's not the only way to do it. Neither way is strictly inferior to the other unless it's out of character the speaker.

I already know water freezes and boils, why are you telling me that?

You don't need to be told that water can freeze and boil. The character's saying that basically low-key gloating about what he did to the two people he just killed. Narratively, the line is used to inform the audience that the character's powers and specialty is based around the manipulation of water, or more specifically, the very narrow niche of manipulation of water temperature. It's to convey that his ability to freeze someone solid and cook another person alive were just two creative applications of the same power rather than, for instance, him having fire magic and water magic.

I don't care about equivalent exchange or transmutation circles less than 5 minutes into a show. You have the entirety of the series to explain that stuff over time. Just let the viewer take in what's going on and wonder how it works

These are foundational concepts to the characters and the basis of how they understand the setting's magic. Hell, alchemists in the setting are by nature scientists of a sort. And at the point you stopped watching, they're hardly given a passing mention. But establishing the role of transmutation circles in alchemy is important for the plot of the episode.

the spectacle all you need at that point, have the characters gives signs of, you know, their "character" in the dialog so I start being interested in who they are.

The first episode is a cold open, using an episode-length action plot to introduce you to the setting while dropping oblique references to the greater story arc and hinting at key concepts. You want to know more about the characters? The second episode is devoted to the protagonists' backstory, the third episode is about who they are now and their goals.

SupahEwok:

You'd think that, but the Japanese have their own frustrations about the modern anime industry. The reason why a bunch of trash gets put out (harems, 90% of isekai) is because otaku (obsessive social outcast) culture grew so much over the 90s and 00s. They're the ones who will buy all the merchandise, and most of the industry over time has morphed around them and their interests. Easy titillation ("fanservice"), masturbatory self-insert characters (Mary Sue-ism is hugely prevalent in anime), shallow characterization and a small stable of tropes used over and over again so that the viewer can be gratified without having to think.

There's anime that rises above these things, even popular anime (JoJo's counts, and I don't even care for JoJo's). So it's not "just" a cultural problem. It's an industry issue of pursuing a particular subculture with deep pockets and a willingness to spend.

Edit: Now, if you really want a spicy take, I'm gonna point out the overlap between (trash) anime's popularity with outcast culture in Japan, and it's popularity with outcast culture (incels, alt-right) in the West...

Also everyone should watch Baccano! Definitely my fave anime. I don't hate anime as an artform. I'm just fully aware of the state of its industry.

90% of everything is shit - Sturgeon's Law.

Or as Quentin Tarantino said of the UK's film industry, to paraphrase, the Carry On... movies weren't art, but at least back then the UK was making films. It's effectively a take on Sturgeon's Law, you don't make the shit, you won't be making the jewels, either.

Phoenixmgs:

Dreiko:
A lot of anime use anime conventions to pump tons of meaning into events. If you are not familiar with anime as a medium you will not catch all that stuff, it'll just seem strange or random and that's kinda where you'll go with it.

It's less like having a direct plot-reference where if you read book #23 of Thor you'll laugh at this one Avengers joke a bit harder. It's more like a language of communication anime uses through the use of various tropes and behaviors and speech patters and being able to comprehend what the show is trying to communicate on a more fundamental level through understanding all these things. It's less about knowing a particular series' lore and more about knowing the language of the medium and what it's communicating when it does X or Y.

When someone is just starting out, they're not yet fluent in those components of anime, but a veteran fan gets to enjoy them all and gets all the meaning from out of them, which is why you can have discrepancy between the two group's assessment of a specific show.

There's nothing that can make Elfen Lied even OK let alone good. Outside of deconstructions, you really shouldn't need to know anything about the material. Even then, on the surface level, you should have something there of quality and "getting it" would take the work from decent/good to great. Sorta like how great kids movies are far more entertaining for adults while kids (aka novices/beginners) still enjoy the surface level stuff. There's also several anime that I'm completely done with before the 1st episode is over, they're that bad. I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

Five minutes? Jesus Christ how do you expect emotional connection with anything in five fucking minutes?

Gordon_4:

Phoenixmgs:

Dreiko:
A lot of anime use anime conventions to pump tons of meaning into events. If you are not familiar with anime as a medium you will not catch all that stuff, it'll just seem strange or random and that's kinda where you'll go with it.

It's less like having a direct plot-reference where if you read book #23 of Thor you'll laugh at this one Avengers joke a bit harder. It's more like a language of communication anime uses through the use of various tropes and behaviors and speech patters and being able to comprehend what the show is trying to communicate on a more fundamental level through understanding all these things. It's less about knowing a particular series' lore and more about knowing the language of the medium and what it's communicating when it does X or Y.

When someone is just starting out, they're not yet fluent in those components of anime, but a veteran fan gets to enjoy them all and gets all the meaning from out of them, which is why you can have discrepancy between the two group's assessment of a specific show.

There's nothing that can make Elfen Lied even OK let alone good. Outside of deconstructions, you really shouldn't need to know anything about the material. Even then, on the surface level, you should have something there of quality and "getting it" would take the work from decent/good to great. Sorta like how great kids movies are far more entertaining for adults while kids (aka novices/beginners) still enjoy the surface level stuff. There's also several anime that I'm completely done with before the 1st episode is over, they're that bad. I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

Five minutes? Jesus Christ how do you expect emotional connection with anything in five fucking minutes?

Like I said before, he has absurdly high standards.

Asita:
The first episode is a cold open, using an episode-length action plot to introduce you to the setting while dropping oblique references to the greater story arc and hinting at key concepts. You want to know more about the characters? The second episode is devoted to the protagonists' backstory, the third episode is about who they are now and their goals.

It wasn't a well-done opening action scene at all like I explained. You should be piquing audience interest and keeping them wondering at the very start. I just got through watching The Umbrella Academy and that show is great at just having stuff happen that you have no idea in the whys and hows, then slowly dripping out the explanations. The 1st scenes with a character are your first impressions, which are important.

Gordon_4:
Five minutes? Jesus Christ how do you expect emotional connection with anything in five fucking minutes?

I just sat down with my dinner that night and decided to put on the 1st episode and there was literally nothing in those 5 minutes that interested me (which is a bad sign) and a few things that already annoyed me so I turned it off and continued whatever show I was watching at the time. I watched Lupin the 3rd: Daisuke Jigen's Gravestone couple nights back, it was OK.

CoCage:

Like I said before, he has absurdly high standards.

I'm not sure that "high standards" is the best description, because I don't think the differentiating element is quality.

Silvanus:

CoCage:

Like I said before, he has absurdly high standards.

I'm not sure that "high standards" is the best description, because I don't think the differentiating element is quality.

When someone freaks out over nothing for the first five minutes in an action show, I put those standards to question. If I did that or had that attitude to every single anime, then I would not be a happy person.

Phoenixmgs:

Asita:
The first episode is a cold open, using an episode-length action plot to introduce you to the setting while dropping oblique references to the greater story arc and hinting at key concepts. You want to know more about the characters? The second episode is devoted to the protagonists' backstory, the third episode is about who they are now and their goals.

It wasn't a well-done opening action scene at all like I explained. You should be piquing audience interest and keeping them wondering at the very start. I just got through watching The Umbrella Academy and that show is great at just having stuff happen that you have no idea in the whys and hows, then slowly dripping out the explanations. The 1st scenes with a character are your first impressions, which are important.

Gordon_4:
Five minutes? Jesus Christ how do you expect emotional connection with anything in five fucking minutes?

I just sat down with my dinner that night and decided to put on the 1st episode and there was literally nothing in those 5 minutes that interested me (which is a bad sign) and a few things that already annoyed me so I turned it off and continued whatever show I was watching at the time. I watched Lupin the 3rd: Daisuke Jigen's Gravestone couple nights back, it was OK.

If that irks you so much, then you're going to go in to cardiac arrest from the bad anime of the old-school in the 80s & 90s. I assure you, there are things worse than FMA Brotherhood (which is a great series you should give a chance) [1] and Elfen Lied (which is edgy try hard bad). Like I said, give things a chance. If you go only the first 5 minutes of 1 episode, then you're cheating yourself. One episode is not indicative of the entire series. I remember not giving Kill La Kill a chance based off of premise alone. When I got a dub, I decided to swallow my pride and give it a chance. Trigger did a great job, despite some bumps in the earlier episodes. The dub is an S+ rank, and the same people behind Gurren Lagann & Panty & Stocking grew beyond the chains of Gainax (who've done nothing, but rest on there lurels at this point and time). Attack on Titan, a show I though I would enjoy, I ended up hating and dropped around the 2nd season. AoT was just another shitty shounen show with some military themes and suffered the same issues as The Walking Dead (TV) & Highschool of the Dead.

[1] FMA (2003) is a different story. While it got a lot of love back then, the first anime adaption is now love it or hate it territory. Due to not following the manga (it was not even halfway done yet) and going completely off the rails in the last few episodes. The Conqueror of Shamballa was not doing any favors either. FMA (2003) I do enjoy, but it's pretty clear by the last 2/3 the writers for that series was making up things as they went along.

CoCage:
If that irks you so much, then you're going to go in to cardiac arrest from the bad anime of the old-school in the 80s & 90s. I assure you, there are things worse than FMA Brotherhood (which is a great series you should give a chance) [1] and Elfen Lied (which is edgy try hard bad). Like I said, give things a chance. If you go only the first 5 minutes of 1 episode, then you're cheating yourself. One episode is not indicative of the entire series. I remember not giving Kill La Kill a chance based off of premise alone. When I got a dub, I decided to swallow my pride and give it a chance. Trigger did a great job, despite some bumps in the earlier episodes. The dub is an S+ rank, and the same people behind Gurren Lagann & Panty & Stocking grew beyond the chains of Gainax (who've done nothing, but rest on there lurels at this point and time). Attack on Titan, a show I though I would enjoy, I ended up hating and dropped around the 2nd season. AoT was just another shitty shounen show with some military themes and suffered the same issues as The Walking Dead (TV) & Highschool of the Dead.

Nah, there's nothing much worse than Elfen Lied that I've seen in my entire life, especially due to the fact that it thinks it's good. My jaw was on the floor like every episode because I just couldn't believe the many places it decided to go. It was like the most glorious trainwreck that I couldn't look away from. Whereas some crappy Asylum movie knows what it is. I never even attempted Attack on Titan from a few things I heard about it and the fact that I don't think I've ever liked any anime that is super popular. I love me some Cowboy Bebop but I don't think it was near as big as Naruto or Attack or Dragon Ball. I watched the 1st episode of Baccano and it was decent so far, my main issue was keeping track of all the characters, there's so many.

[1] FMA (2003) is a different story. While it got a lot of love back then, the first anime adaption is now love it or hate it territory. Due to not following the manga (it was not even halfway done yet) and going completely off the rails in the last few episodes. The Conqueror of Shamballa was not doing any favors either. FMA (2003) I do enjoy, but it's pretty clear by the last 2/3 the writers for that series was making up things as they went along.

Phoenixmgs:

Nah, there's nothing much worse than Elfen Lied that I've seen in my entire life, especially due to the fact that it thinks it's good. My jaw was on the floor like every episode because I just couldn't believe the many places it decided to go. It was like the most glorious train wreck that I couldn't look away from. Whereas some crappy Asylum movie knows what it is.

Phoenix, I like you, but YOU.DON'T.KNOW.SHIT!

Elfen Lied is bad and I definitely hated back when I was 17 and hate it now at 30. Yet, there is so much worse. You just have not seen them.

Anime/Manga worse than EL:

Genocyber - Yeah, prepare to be even more shocked.

Inuyasha - All of it.

Akame ga Kill - Not by much, but the TV version drags more and acts as if it's trying something new.

Love Hina - ....Nothing further.

Desert Punk - You will hate everything.

Black Lagoon - Nothing, but gangsters and wannabe gangsters and their overblown, try hard, nihilistic rants that proves nothing. Literally almost all the characters go on about how shitty the world is. I know you're not supposed to agree (with most of them), but sometimes the anime/manga can't make up it's own fucking mind. The only characters I like are Fabiola and Garcia, because they're the only characters that have some actual fucking standards compared to the cast.

A Wind Named Amnesia - Another anime that thinks it's smart, but is really up its own ass.

Shaman King (manga version) - After the 5 year hiatus, the writer got a I-hate-humanity-bug up his sphincter. The latter ending of the manga thinks it's being good or profound when it's just another shitty Green Aesop and human being "evil, incompetent, or impotent". Almost no good examples, no grey areas. Which is really hypocritical and insensitive when you of your characters (despite being the most powerful of the boys) is a walking black stereotype with the blackface lips and name. Fuck the author!

Ninja Resurrection - Japanese Jesus gets resurrected as Satan. I shit you not! Also, the series never finished because the production ran out of money.

Junk Boy - A really shitty and unfunny comedy.

I never even attempted Attack on Titan from a few things I heard about it and the fact that I don't think I've ever liked any anime that is super popular. I love me some Cowboy Bebop but I don't think it was near as big as Naruto or Attack or Dragon Ball. I watched the 1st episode of Baccano and it was decent so far, my main issue was keeping track of all the characters, there's so many.

Bebop was and still is bigger than Naruto (only in the early stages) and Attack on Titan. Bebop is known by most of the old-school and a good amount of the new school. It's just that some of the younger new school are only interested in shounen stuff or isekai. This is nothing new as the cycle has always been there.

Baccano I could never get interested in. Tried, but did not work out.

Here's some anime recommendations for you:

Monster - Is about a Japanese neurosurgeon, Dr. Kenzo Tenma, saving a boy name Johan in West Germany from a head shot wound. The boy grows up and later becomes a serial killer. Saying anything more would spoil all of the surprises. The series starts in the 1980s and ends in the mid 90s.

Michiko and Hatchin - Takes place entirely in Brazil. An escaped female convict tries to help a little girl find her father. Some of the same team that worked on Bebop and Samurai Champloo worked on this. Nowhere near as good as either, but an entertaining watch with some heartwarming moments. Even better, it's a non-Japanese setting where most of the characters are black and/or latino. And without the cultural or racial stereotypes. Which proves it can be done, it's just certain anime/manga creators are lazy to do this. Luckily, this is less of a problem now, than it was back in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. But it still happens from time to time.

CoCage:
Phoenix, I like you, but YOU.DON'T.KNOW.SHIT!

Elfen Lied is bad and I definitely hated back when I was 17 and hate it now at 30. Yet, there is so much worse. You just have not seen them.

Anime/Manga worse than EL:

Genocyber - Yeah, prepare to be even more shocked.

Inuyasha - All of it.

Akame ga Kill - Not by much, but the TV version drags more and acts as if it's trying something new.

Love Hina - ....Nothing further.

Desert Punk - You will hate everything.

Black Lagoon - Nothing, but gangsters and wannabe gangsters and their overblown, try hard, nihilistic rants that proves nothing. Literally almost all the characters go on about how shitty the world is. I know you're not supposed to agree (with most of them), but sometimes the anime/manga can't make up it's own fucking mind. The only characters I like are Fabiola and Garcia, because they're the only characters that have some actual fucking standards compared to the cast.

A Wind Named Amnesia - Another anime that thinks it's smart, but is really up its own ass.

Shaman King (manga version) - After the 5 year hiatus, the writer got a I-hate-humanity-bug up his sphincter. The latter ending of the manga thinks it's being good or profound when it's just another shitty Green Aesop and human being "evil, incompetent, or impotent". Almost no good examples, no grey areas. Which is really hypocritical and insensitive when you of your characters (despite being the most powerful of the boys) is a walking black stereotype with the blackface lips and name. Fuck the author!

Ninja Resurrection - Japanese Jesus gets resurrected as Satan. I shit you not! Also, the series never finished because the production ran out of money.

Junk Boy - A really shitty and unfunny comedy.

---

Bebop was and still is bigger than Naruto (only in the early stages) and Attack on Titan. Bebop is known by most of the old-school and a good amount of the new school. It's just that some of the younger new school are only interested in shounen stuff or isekai. This is nothing new as the cycle has always been there.

Baccano I could never get interested in. Tried, but did not work out.

Here's some anime recommendations for you:

Monster - Is about a Japanese neurosurgeon, Dr. Kenzo Tenma, saving a boy name Johan in West Germany from a head shot wound. The boy grows up and later becomes a serial killer. Saying anything more would spoil all of the surprises. The series starts in the 1980s and ends in the mid 90s.

Michiko and Hatchin - Takes place entirely in Brazil. An escaped female convict tries to help a little girl find her father. Some of the same team that worked on Bebop and Samurai Champloo worked on this. Nowhere near as good as either, but an entertaining watch with some heartwarming moments. Even better, it's a non-Japanese setting where most of the characters are black and/or latino. And without the cultural or racial stereotypes. Which proves it can be done, it's just certain anime/manga creators are lazy to do this. Luckily, this is less of a problem now, than it was back in 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. But it still happens from time to time.

I think I watched like the 1st 4 or so episodes of Black Lagoon and then just never kept watching for some reason, no clue why really. I remember it was fine and high on the action. I doubt the plot goes into Elfen Lied territory just based on the subject matter alone along with it didn't seem to be a super serious show either. I actually have Michiko and Hatchin on my computer for like a couple years or so. I tried watching it twice, just recently like a couple months back, and it wasn't bad or anything, it was just 'meh'. Stuff that I would've watched 15-20 years back before the golden age of TV, I just don't watch now because there's so many great shows. If the WB DC shows were on 20 years back, I would've been so into them but now there's tons of better stuff out there. And anime was more interesting back then too because shows could be quite different from the standard network TV fair, which was rather same-y and the predominate TV at the time.

At least going to cons and such (not anime specific cons), I don't really see a lot of Cowboy Bebop stuff (prints, cosplaying, etc.) compared to say Naruto or Dragonball. I wouldn't be surprised if Cowboy Bebop is considered better than say Naruto but popularity-wise, it doesn't seem close.

Phoenixmgs:
At least going to cons and such (not anime specific cons), I don't really see a lot of Cowboy Bebop stuff (prints, cosplaying, etc.) compared to say Naruto or Dragonball. I wouldn't be surprised if Cowboy Bebop is considered better than say Naruto but popularity-wise, it doesn't seem close.

Naruto ran for significantly longer than Bebop and ended much more recently. Whereas Naruto ran for 15 years (ending in 2014) and 72 volumes, Cowboy Bebop ran for two volumes produced over a little more than half a year and ended in 1998. There's a lot of love for Cowboy Bebop, but it's usually less topical than more recent IPs.

Asita:
Naruto ran for significantly longer than Bebop and ended much more recently. Whereas Naruto ran for 15 years (ending in 2014) and 72 volumes, Cowboy Bebop ran for two volumes produced over a little more than half a year and ended in 1998. There's a lot of love for Cowboy Bebop, but it's usually less topical than more recent IPs.

Yeah, I totally get it, it's hard for something to stay popular without ongoing content. Though I think Dragonball stayed pretty popular over time, I know there was a recent series of it but I'm thinking there was quite a big gap in content for it. I just never saw Cowboy Bebop's popularity really ever rivaling stuff like Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach/Attack/etc.

Phoenixmgs:

Yeah, I totally get it, it's hard for something to stay popular without ongoing content. Though I think Dragonball stayed pretty popular over time, I know there was a recent series of it but I'm thinking there was quite a big gap in content for it. I just never saw Cowboy Bebop's popularity really ever rivaling stuff like Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach/Attack/etc.

Well, sure, but that's not a meaningful metric for what we're looking for. The popularity of The Thick of It never rivalled the popularity of Friends, either.

Bebob is just one of those things which was out during a time where not many things were out so if you were into anime back in 1998 you would have watched and liked it. Comparing it to modern day anime that are competing with literally dozens of new similarly solid titles each year and all the old titles that people have on their backlogs is really not rational.

Phoenixmgs:

Asita:
Naruto ran for significantly longer than Bebop and ended much more recently. Whereas Naruto ran for 15 years (ending in 2014) and 72 volumes, Cowboy Bebop ran for two volumes produced over a little more than half a year and ended in 1998. There's a lot of love for Cowboy Bebop, but it's usually less topical than more recent IPs.

Yeah, I totally get it, it's hard for something to stay popular without ongoing content. Though I think Dragonball stayed pretty popular over time, I know there was a recent series of it but I'm thinking there was quite a big gap in content for it. I just never saw Cowboy Bebop's popularity really ever rivaling stuff like Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach/Attack/etc.

Naruto really hasn't ended. It's just Boruto now which is his son. It's still the same world and characters, just now focusing on their kids. It's like saying DB ended cause it's DBZ now lol.

And while db anime did end in gt back in 96, they kept making games about it all the way up until kai and eventually super.

Phoenixmgs:

Dreiko:
A lot of anime use anime conventions to pump tons of meaning into events. If you are not familiar with anime as a medium you will not catch all that stuff, it'll just seem strange or random and that's kinda where you'll go with it.

It's less like having a direct plot-reference where if you read book #23 of Thor you'll laugh at this one Avengers joke a bit harder. It's more like a language of communication anime uses through the use of various tropes and behaviors and speech patters and being able to comprehend what the show is trying to communicate on a more fundamental level through understanding all these things. It's less about knowing a particular series' lore and more about knowing the language of the medium and what it's communicating when it does X or Y.

When someone is just starting out, they're not yet fluent in those components of anime, but a veteran fan gets to enjoy them all and gets all the meaning from out of them, which is why you can have discrepancy between the two group's assessment of a specific show.

There's nothing that can make Elfen Lied even OK let alone good. Outside of deconstructions, you really shouldn't need to know anything about the material. Even then, on the surface level, you should have something there of quality and "getting it" would take the work from decent/good to great. Sorta like how great kids movies are far more entertaining for adults while kids (aka novices/beginners) still enjoy the surface level stuff. There's also several anime that I'm completely done with before the 1st episode is over, they're that bad. I just tried to start watching the newer Full Alchemist series like a week back and I turned off the 1st episode in probably 5 minutes, half the dialogue was naming "moves", that's never good writing.

Right, that's how it works with things that are amazing. But say you have something that is just decent, and getting the language makes it great. It doesn't mean it's bad because it's not amazing.

Most things will be just decent/good when you get them. That, and just being bad, are two different things.

Basically, the expectation here is that all anime must be amazing to not be seen as being trash and that's not realistic to anything. Especially not to things that are there for specific niche fandoms that really won't appeal much to other folks. Even if most people don't get it and think it's meh, it's still great at being what it's trying to be. I think art is best judged at how well it accomplishes the goal it set out to accomplish, not how well it satisfies every single person who comes upon it, because laymen often will lack the capacity to comprehend what the art is doing and misjudge it.

Dreiko:
Bebob is just one of those things which was out during a time where not many things were out so if you were into anime back in 1998 you would have watched and liked it. Comparing it to modern day anime that are competing with literally dozens of new similarly solid titles each year and all the old titles that people have on their backlogs is really not rational.

I wasn't trying to compare it really, just saying it was never as big as other hugely popular anime, probably even in the time it was released. Attack on Titan in its first season was probably more popular than Bebop when it came out.

Right, that's how it works with things that are amazing. But say you have something that is just decent, and getting the language makes it great. It doesn't mean it's bad because it's not amazing.

Most things will be just decent/good when you get them. That, and just being bad, are two different things.

Basically, the expectation here is that all anime must be amazing to not be seen as being trash and that's not realistic to anything. Especially not to things that are there for specific niche fandoms that really won't appeal much to other folks. Even if most people don't get it and think it's meh, it's still great at being what it's trying to be. I think art is best judged at how well it accomplishes the goal it set out to accomplish, not how well it satisfies every single person who comes upon it, because laymen often will lack the capacity to comprehend what the art is doing and misjudge it.

I wasn't saying that Elfen Lied is bad because it was OK, I'm saying it's bad because I'd literally rate it 0/10, it is literally (not figuratively) one of the very worst things I've ever seen. I watched the 1st season of Psycho Pass (I think there's more seasons now) and I'd give it like a 5-6/10, it was OK. Thus, OK =/= bad to me. And, like I said, I'm looking at anime that is on "best of" lists and I'm having a hard time finding stuff that is 7+/10. If I only watch movies from the IMDB top 250, I'm not going to find 0/10 stuff and I'll find a healthy amount of 7+/10 movies. And since the last 10-15 years, regular TV has been so good and so varied (my main reason I'd check out anime was the variance in subject matter from network TV), what's the point in checking out stuff that has a lower % of being good vs checking out some new show on Netflix/Amazon/HBO/etc that will be a pretty high chance of being that 7+/10 good?

And anime isn't so special that it has some inherent quality of requiring the audience to "get it" anymore than anything else. And, just googling "deepest anime" brings up Psycho Pass as being really deep, it's not at all very deep compared to anything near Ghost in the Shell (not counting the newer stuff that ain't very good). And, OMG, I clicked on the Quora result that's like the 1st google result for that search and someone said Danganronpa (yes, I know, you know, the poster knows it's a game technically) was deep. This is why I can't trust anime fans whatsoever, I fucking played that complete piece of garbage that is Danganronpa (I gots the trophies to prove it; PSN is Phoenixmgs), probably the worst game I ever played, the writing was so so so fucking bad.

Never did get the love for Pride and Prejudice. I found it so dull, would much rather have read something by a Bronte sister if we were going for the historical romance genre

Palindromemordnilap:
Never did get the love for Pride and Prejudice. I found it so dull, would much rather have read something by a Bronte sister if we were going for the historical romance genre

I had to read Mansfield Park at school, never felt compelled to read any of the others. But I would say I appreciated it enough to see why her books are so popular and highly regarded.

Phoenixmgs:

Yeah, I totally get it, it's hard for something to stay popular without ongoing content. Though I think Dragonball stayed pretty popular over time, I know there was a recent series of it but I'm thinking there was quite a big gap in content for it. I just never saw Cowboy Bebop's popularity really ever rivaling stuff like Dragonball/Naruto/Bleach/Attack/etc.

To really be legendary, however, produce very little.

The more material, the higher the risk of diminishing returns cheapening the whole (cough Star Wars cough).

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