So Iceman is Gay Now

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PsychicTaco115:
So Iceman is... flaming?

Yeh I used that joke before but I like it, big whoop wanna fite IRL about it?

I will fite you IRL over this.

But yeah, comic books go to really drastic measures in order to keep a status quo

I wonder how long it'll be before they change his/others sexuality again?

Retconning retcons is a chronic illness in the comic industry. It never really stops, it just mutates into new forms. :P

kris40k:
Very poorly done.

Ret-con's like this that break the history of a character are poor writing.

If this was all there was to it, then I'd agree, but it's the first issue of a multiple-issue arc. Let's not jump to assumptions about the quality of the story involved.

If they do manage to pull off an arc exploring self-denial, that could end up being pretty good.

Silvanus:

kris40k:
Very poorly done.

Ret-con's like this that break the history of a character are poor writing.

If this was all there was to it, then I'd agree, but it's the first issue of a multiple-issue arc. Let's not jump to assumptions about the quality of the story involved.

If they do manage to pull off an arc exploring self-denial, that could end up being pretty good.

But nah, I get where you're coming from. Probably will need to see how they work this out. It does reek a bit like the Squirrel Girl/Uatu bit as a way to handwave away anyone saying Bobby is bisexual, which would actually make better sense with the established history, by saying "I, Jean Grey, with my telepathic senses, can confirm, in fact, that you are Bobby Drake and are fully gay, and not bisexual, or a robot or clone."

Silentpony:
Wait, aren't they all gay? Isn't that the whole point of X-Men? Being a mutant is a metaphor for being gay.
So how is this news?

So Jean Gray is a man and the love triangle with her Wolverine and Cyclops is a homosexual one is it? Also Colossus and Shadowcat. Gay? The idea of the Xmen comes from all sorts of social discrimination. The idea that people fear what is different. Not just gay.

Anyway.
Typical Marvel and DC today. Changing an already established perfectly fine character by making them a homosexual. Because they have no real faith in the idea of homosexuality as an interesting attribute for a character, so they hammer it onto an already popular established character, in the hopes that the vocal minority on the internet will stop bullying them on twitter.

If you wan't to have gay people in comics create new gay characters. That way no one gets pissed off. Characters like Wiccan are fucking model examples of how to do gay superheroes right. He's cool and he has a story which uses homosexuality as a decent sub story.
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Marvel get off you're ass and give gay comic readers new and interesting characters they can read about. Not just lazily say oh yeah that ones gay now.

Pathetic.

PsychicTaco115:
So Iceman is... flaming?

Yeh I used that joke before but I like it, big whoop wanna fite IRL about it?

image

And yes, I know I used it before, but you started it! :P

Redlin5:

PsychicTaco115:
So Iceman is... flaming?

Yeh I used that joke before but I like it, big whoop wanna fite IRL about it?

I will fite you IRL over this.

LordLundar:

And yes, I know I used it before, but you started it! :P

Man, I didn't start diddily doo!

Yeah, I said diddily doo unironically, big whoop wanna fite about it?

PsychicTaco115:

So you're searching the USA? Good luck with that but I'll be waiting anyway.

Seriously no one watches family guy at Marvel because I laughed when they announced this. I feel bad too because I took other characters being gay more seriously.

Pluvia:
Anyway like I said in the other, this is more interesting than a usual gay character reveal, and Family Guy called it years ago.

Oh god, they did. I just remembered

OT: So comics are shaking up the canon and performing attention grabbing stunts? That doesn't sound like their modus operandi one bit ...

SweetShark:

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PsychicTaco115:

For these contributions, you both are awarded this correct ding and this wizard sound effects.[1]

OT: From the little I know of the comics, this is pretty out of the blue. But hey, at least we get that great shrug image, right?

[1] These sound effects will be used until the proper ones used in the TalkRadar/Laser Time podcasts can be found.

Silentpony:
Wait, aren't they all gay? Isn't that the whole point of X-Men? Being a mutant is a metaphor for being gay.
So how is this news?

that's kind of like Saying Major from Animal Farm is literally Karl Marx

uhhhh no...he's still an anthromorphic pig

The dumbest part of this is that His younger self is gay but his older self isn't. I mean WHHHHAATTT? That's the dumbest thing imaginable. You can't do that. This isn't supposed to be an alternate universe Iceman it's supposed to be his younger self. And for the record they're not saying he's bi, they're saying he's gay as in not physically attracted to women... We've had internal dialogue and a 50 year history of Iceman being physically attracted to women.

The comic actually says that he chose to stop being gay.

All these people freaking out about Iceman being gay really need to chill out

thaluikhain:
Actually, though, I thought that it was just about being gay, but apparently it was also about black rights.

Yeah a major parallel are the integrationists, the X-Men, and the segregationists, the Brotherhood of Mutants. After all, there were black segregationists, people who believed that societies should be of all one race. I don't know if the gay parallels were there initially or if they got added later on, but I think that they had the gay parallels in the early 80s.

MarsAtlas:

thaluikhain:
Actually, though, I thought that it was just about being gay, but apparently it was also about black rights.

Yeah a major parallel are the integrationists, the X-Men, and the segregationists, the Brotherhood of Mutants. After all, there were black segregationists, people who believed that societies should be of all one race. I don't know if the gay parallels were there initially or if they got added later on, but I think that they had the gay parallels in the early 80s.

Professor X is similar to MLK Jr.
Magneto is similar to Malcolm X[1]

Later, parallels to the struggles of LGBT would get drawn, and especially with the movies in the 2000's, with lines such as "Mutant and proud" and "have you tried not being a mutant?"

[1] pre-1964

DrownedAmmet:
All these people freaking out about Iceman being gay really need to chill out

For that joke, I'm giving you the cold shoulder...

OT: I feel like there's something missing from this equation, considering we have both teen Iceman and adult Iceman... Maybe the story will clear that up and it wouldn't seem too cliche, but what do I know? I'm too busy staring at of Jean Grey's pose before she drops the G-bomb on Iceman...
image

Vault101:

Silentpony:
SNIP

that's kind of like Saying Major from Animal Farm is literally Karl Marx

uhhhh no...he's still an anthromorphic pig

Well...no. It's kinda like saying Batman's villains each mirror an aspect of his personality. Scarecrow = use of fear, Two-face = Batman/Bruce Wayne, Joker = His sense of futility, etc...

Or that Nick Furry's re-design was based of Samuel L. Jackson, or that the 80s Transformer's movie only killed off characters because their toys weren't selling.
Its obvious. We all - supposedly - knew this already. Nerd trivia blah blah blah

Does it effect his ice powers? Are they more "fierce" now? I don't know lol I don't care...

I'm kind of curious though, I mean if the writer just made this character gay, then I think that's cool, I don't think that really impacts anything aside from some character drama which is all great cause why not, but I don't like them doing things just for spectacle because it colors these characters that we have no choice but to look at them through those lenses. Why do I have to be informed that he is gay in a news article? Why did I have to be informed that the heir of the spider-suit is black/Hispanic? It becomes their defining quality which is not realistic. I feel like it raises my expectations of these characters because now I have to go into this booking thinking "man I really hope they don't just make a circus out of this because someone wants to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're tolerant.

Miles Morales ended up being the only comic in the ultimate universe I like. Kahmala Kahn is a great comic. I feel like its so odd that we can't just treat people like normal people...

Silentpony:
[snip

representing and being symbolic of something is not the same as being that thing within the fictional universe

so the X-men are not inherently gay aside from the ones that are (there's been a couple right?) even if the parallels have been closer to gay than other possible interpretations

I fail to see how this is a big deal, or even how it's a retcon. A lot of people are secretly gay. There are gay men and women who are married and have children. And the sexuality of many characters are never touched upon. Whether they're straight or gay are usually just our assumption.

Vault101:

representing and being symbolic of something is not the same as being that thing within the fictional universe

so the X-men are not inherently gay aside from the ones that are (there's been a couple right?) even if the parallels have been closer to gay than other possible interpretations

I'm not convinced. I get that referencing something and being that thing are two separate constructs, but X-men and being gay...
Its just too obvious. Too literal. It's like saying Doctor StrangeLove was meant to be mock political leaders during the Cold War(Cuban Missile Crisis to be precise), or that Star Trek TOS tackled social/political ideas under the guise of alien/human interactions. Its just such common knowledge that to draw attention to it seems if not harmful to the message, then either needless or at least quaint and pointless.

Silentpony:

I'm not convinced. I get that referencing something and being that thing are two separate constructs, but X-men and being gay...
Its just too obvious. Too literal.

I think you're using the word literal wrong

I'm not arguing weather or not X-men draws parallels with the LGBT struggles, we all know it does

but as with most things interpretation is still interpretation, EVEN IF there is a universally agreed upon "right" way to interpret something

we all know Animal Farm is about the dangers of abusing a socialist system but someone could merely enjoy it as a demented story about anthromorphic animals and while we can say that's kind of shallow...we can't say they're wrong (unless they're implying it wasn't Orwell's intention, which we know to be false)

Xmen being a very obvious allegory for LGBT people is not the same as being literally a story ABOUT LGBT people

because I imagine the X-men have changed over the years (as many super hero comic staples do) and there is a lot you can take away aside from the LGBT thing goes

and what I'm really getting at here is you can't substitute them for *actual* gay representation, because while I think its great that allegory can and has been made (especially from a time when stating these things outright was risky) people take away from it what they want, and plenty of people would simply choose to ignore that aspect

and I'm not even saying that's a bad thing or that ALL THE XMEN SHOULD BE OUTRIGHT GAY but again....LGBT's struggles are real, mutants are fictional

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised that people aren't more bothered by the implication that a woman can look into a man's mind for all of 5 seconds and claim to know his sexuality better than he does!

FPLOON:

DrownedAmmet:
All these people freaking out about Iceman being gay really need to chill out

For that joke, I'm giving you the cold shoulder...

OT: I feel like there's something missing from this equation, considering we have both teen Iceman and adult Iceman... Maybe the story will clear that up and it wouldn't seem too cliche, but what do I know? I'm too busy staring at of Jean Grey's pose before she drops the G-bomb on Iceman...
image

Here's hoping that this because a meme.

If people can call out lazy writing for being sexist, then people should be allowed to call out lazy writing for pushing an agenda at the expense of storytelling.

I saw Everly last night. I loved it. It starred Salma Hayek as the title character. She has to fend off waves of killers while she try to give a bag of money to her mother and her child. It is an original character. So the fact that she was female and Hispanic did not distract from the character. Like it would if it was adapted from another source that the character was originally white male.

If Marvel or anyone else want to have gay characters, women, other races, etc. They should make original characters. They need to stop haphazardly changing characters' traits in the name of diversity.

Here's a list of what I'm talking about: Fantastic Four movie, Thor (Comics, Not the movie), Ghostbusters, and there's more. I am too tired to think of any other recent examples.

The right response to finding out someone is gay is, "I don't care." However, if people are just changing an established character's trait and ruining the story in the process. It's understandable that people will care, and have negative opinions about it.

Jean Grey looks like she's trying to hold in puke and is frantically waving her arms in a bid to run to the toilet.

KissingSunlight:
If people can call out lazy writing for being sexist

Er...the laziness is a separate issue than the sexistness, surely?

KissingSunlight:
They need to stop haphazardly changing characters' traits in the name of diversity.

They haphazardly change character traits for all sorts of reasons, why is it a problem when diversity is increased?

Baffle:
Jean Grey looks like she's trying to hold in puke and is frantically waving her arms in a bid to run to the toilet.

Cannot unsee!

thaluikhain:
Well, retcons are like that. OTOH, isn't the reveal that he was in the closet the whole time? That's not really a retcon, is it? It changes lots of things, but doesn't necessarily contradict established - look at her arms! What is she doing there? Did they get frozen in time for a few panels?

There are speedlines. She's meant to be moving them.

And it is a retcon, since it contradicts the previous canon of him being straight. Yeah, sometimes it's kind of hard to tell what contradicts extablished canon. F'r instance, does deciding that Kitty Pryde was replaced by a skrull for about two panels during her first appearance contradict established canon when they never explicitly said she wasn't a skrull? But still, as long as you were meant to assume that something was true, a story where they suddenyl decide it isn't counts as a retcon in my book.

thaluikhain:

KissingSunlight:
If people can call out lazy writing for being sexist

Er...the laziness is a separate issue than the sexistness, surely?

KissingSunlight:
They need to stop haphazardly changing characters' traits in the name of diversity.

They haphazardly change character traits for all sorts of reasons, why is it a problem when diversity is increased?

Baffle:
Jean Grey looks like she's trying to hold in puke and is frantically waving her arms in a bid to run to the toilet.

Cannot unsee!

I really don't want to dive too much into the Anita Sarkeesian's argument. Relying on tropes is lazy writing. Tropes can reinforced negative stereotypes about people. Therefore, people like Anita can complain that tropes are sexist. That was what I was referring to. So, yes, you are right. Being sexist is mostly a separate issue to lazy writing.

Writers should not haphazardly change character's traits at the expense of the story. Regardless of their reasons for doing so. My concern is not the reason for the reckless disregard of their story. It is the fact that they are showing reckless disregard of the story.

KissingSunlight:
Writers should not haphazardly change character's traits at the expense of the story. Regardless of their reasons for doing so. My concern is not the reason for the reckless disregard of their story. It is the fact that they are showing reckless disregard of the story.

Ah, ok, I seem to have misread you there.

thaluikhain:

KissingSunlight:
If people can call out lazy writing for being sexist

Er...the laziness is a separate issue than the sexistness, surely?

KissingSunlight:
They need to stop haphazardly changing characters' traits in the name of diversity.

They haphazardly change character traits for all sorts of reasons, why is it a problem when diversity is increased?

Baffle:
Jean Grey looks like she's trying to hold in puke and is frantically waving her arms in a bid to run to the toilet.

Cannot unsee!

This: I don't get what all the hubbub is about, comics haphazardly change stuff all the time with varying degrees of success. If anything Iceman's sexuality shift is even more innocuous compared to actual narrative train wrecks like the Spider-Man Clone saga from the 80's.

It is not such a big deal... people are just making it a much bigger deal than it is (the link is to CNN, for Christ sake)

But really, I think its better handled than the big reveal DC pulled a couple years ago:
- A huge twist, one of our big characters comes out of the closet.
- Big characters? Batman? Superman? Flash?
- No... wait for it... Green Lantern.
- Wait, there are a million of Green Lanterns. Which one? Hal Jordan? John Steward? Kilowog?
- No, no... He is not one of those Green Lantern. He is the old one: Alan Scott. You probably don't know him because he was never in any of the popular TV adaptations, or movies, and we had to retcon him fifty years ago to make him part of an alternate universe, and then later to make him younger and closer to the "other Green Lanterns". Sill, pretty cool, right?
- So, one of the "big ones"? sure...

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