Poll: Obama Shutting Down Guantanamo Bay. Good or Bad?

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The posts in these types of threads always make me laugh. Americans really do believe Terrorists are monsterious beasts of destruction that hide under the bed, have chainsaws for arms and produce pure evil for piss.

Obama has taken the right step to a higher level of respect for the US with this move.

SomeBritishDude:
The posts in these types of threads always make me laugh. Americans really do believe Terrorists are monsterious beasts of destruction that hide under the bed, have chainsaws for arms and produce pure evil for piss.

You trying to tell me they don't!?

Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor:
I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives. People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution. But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

Just wanted to ask all of y'all intelligent people out there.

Good lord so your theory is if it might result in useful info then pretty much anytrhing goes? Fairly sure the Nazis got some good biological data from all their experiments maybe they were onto something ey?

Plenty of people in Gitmo were just in the wrong place at trhe wrong time not enemy combatants as they are frequently refered to. If America sees nothing wrong with torture of innocent civilians then I dont think it is worth protecting so much

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Yee

HE was an innocent American citizen who was looked up there. There are a lot of innocent people in Guantanamo including innocent 14-year-olds. He had to punished by getting a "time out." A few people are still there despite publicly admitted as innocent. We can't release them beacuse they might be mistreated.

America has lost any pretensions to a moral high ground with what's going on a Guantanamo Bay.

Closing Gitmo is a good idea. It was a legal loophole that the previous administration was using to avoid some inconvenient constitutional amendments like the 6th and 8th. I believe any one possibly linked to the September 11th attacks should be processed by the federal and/or New York court system and given prison or death sentences where appropriate.

Further more I don't believe we are fighting a war in the traditional sense. There has not been any official declaration by congress. The other side does not have a uniformed military or center of government. So captured fighters are technically criminals and treating them as such would be the best course of action. Put them on trial, imprison or execute them in proportion to their actions. We should not for one moment acknowledge the cause for which they fight has any more legitimacy than the Mafia.

However if we do want to treat these people like enemy combatants in a war we should acknowledge they hide amongst the civilian population and do not wear uniforms when engaging in combat with our forces. This makes them spies and saboteurs. Under the Geneva Convention we have every right to execute them.

Interesting note:
"Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy... 3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. "

Madaxeman101:
i dont see the point in closing guantanamo if the terrorists are willing to blow everyone up then they deserve to be tortured and even if they dont get any info out of them its still going to be fun

They're not all terrorists.

Oh sure let's ask weather doing the RIGHT think for ONCE, mind you the think that stops things that would get any other country razed to the ground, is right or wrong?

Terrorists are not going to raze our country to the ground and even if they were us torturing them would only make it happen faster.

I will honestly be more impressed if Obama lifts the secrecy regarding torture and investigates the crimes of the Bush Administration.

where will harold and kumar go??

Ironically, the attempts Guantanamo Bay to gain insight to stop unpleasant instances, has actually catalyzed it - who knows, shutting it down may reduce international tensions

Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor:
I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives. People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution. But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

Just wanted to ask all of y'all intelligent people out there.

Are you taking the piss or what ? It's a rather funny post but I've got this scary idea that you are serious. Then again, after the "But they are not American citizens so should they have those right" part I'm almost sure you are joking. Or incredibly dumb. No, that's not fair, maybe just a little, how do you call it in the land of the free ?, brainwashed.

well, they will be moving those prisoners into my old volcano base. My base is an 17 Septillion Dollar Battle Station

Madaxeman101:
i dont see the point in closing guantanamo if the terrorists are willing to blow everyone up then they deserve to be tortured and even if they dont get any info out of them its still going to be fun

But they're not all terrorists. Many were just grabbed on suspicions. Even if they were all terrorists, they're still humans. And America's agreed to the Geneva Conventions, so torture against anyone is bad.

By the way, that last part sounded a bit sadistic.

Silverwings1123:
I beleive that somewhere in the Bill of Rights it says something about cruel and unusual punishment?
Torture IS cruel and unusual punishment.

But isn't the Constitution only for American citizens?

I believe it is a good idea. Gitmo is against what America stands for in terms of human rights. As it says for many GWB bumper stickers, The End of an Error

Don't expect any mercy from enemies if you don't treat them right. People may say they did the same, but a teacher doesn't take lessons from the pupil.

Johnnyallstar:
Depends on how you look at it...

Bad idea... we're letting enemy combatants to be moved to places where they don't belong and giving them Constitutional rights as if they were U.S. born citizens. Honestly, they're not American citizens so the Constitution doesn't cover them.

Good... Well, they're moving them into jails with American criminals... many of whom will remember 9/11 better than most people and will save us money by killing the newly moved in people and sparing our beloved government the disgrace of dirtying it's hands. Chow line anyone?

That's right, we non-Americans look upon you Gods with your fancy 'basic human rights' and such. How can you say that just because the Constitution doesn't cover them then they don't have the same rights? They're living, breathing bleeding people, and they deserve to be treated with respect - or at least mercy.

It's a good idea. So long as they don't just start the whole thing up somewhere else.

Hman121:
I understand all of you bleeding hearts out there who are against torture, but really, how many people have died from, let's say, waterboarding? Zero. It is just a sensation of drowning and it gives the U.S. vital info so that the next thing, like Mt. Rushmore, won't be reduced to cinders. Without Guantanamo, how many buildings, monuments, and innocents lives would be lost? Over 3000 terrorist attempts have been thwarted by the Guantanamo officials using torture techniques in order to keep the U.S safe. Also, where are you going to put all of these people?!

In response to the whole waterboarding = fine and dandy argument. I took part in an experiment that a friend was doing at university into what this does to people and I can assure you that enough goes at this you could have gotten me to confess to being Adolf Hitler.

Reliable information from torture subjects, not likely.

You can't have a set of rules for one person and another for everyone else. Torture isn't the answer to getting what you want, just another reason to try to justify cruelty towards another human.

Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor:

Silverwings1123:
I beleive that somewhere in the Bill of Rights it says something about cruel and unusual punishment?
Torture IS cruel and unusual punishment.

But isn't the Constitution only for American citizens?

No, it governs what we can do, not who we do it to. And even if it was, the Geneva Convention isn't.

20 bucks says there's another one where they keep even MORE secret prisioners. They just don't tell us.

lets protect freedom by denying the most fundamental rights of others. The American sterotype goal of global terrorists was achieved by there own goverment.

Hman121:
I understand all of you bleeding hearts out there who are against torture, but really, how many people have died from, let's say, waterboarding? Zero. It is just a sensation of drowning and it gives the U.S. vital info so that the next thing, like Mt. Rushmore, won't be reduced to cinders. Without Guantanamo, how many buildings, monuments, and innocents lives would be lost? Over 3000 terrorist attempts have been thwarted by the Guantanamo officials using torture techniques in order to keep the U.S safe. Also, where are you going to put all of these people?!

In a jail? Like normal criminals?

come on think about this. i would rather have our most dangerous crimnals in a jail outside of the country then in here. its like alcatraz. if they escape where are they going to go there on an island.

torturing for information is the wrong way, if they really wanted information they would research into a more scientific way then make more reasons for other countrys to think americans are a stupid brutal nation that is slowly killing its own self

I can't help but think as terrorists tend to be of the mindset of being happy to die or kill themselves for their cause, that the main people who'll confess under torture will be the innocent ones.

Of course that's a pretty vague opinion based on not knowing much about the place, but hey this is the internet, where that counts as informed research!

epic [email protected] booze zombie

Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor:

I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives.

People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution.

But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

1. How can torturing prisoners get us more information than trillions of dollars of military spyware, and after years of imprisonment, their information will not be relevant, it will be dated

2. It is not just a violation of the constitution, it is a violation of every basic human right in existence.

3. Are you saying that these people deserve less rights because they were not born here, or don't follow this countries beliefs?

4. Without a fair trial, you cannot even be sure they are terrorists. Many were american citizens on U.S. soil, and were captured unlawfully through the PATRIOT Act, (which, by the way, is reminiscent of Orwell's 1984 in of itself.)

You bring dishonor to the name of Fingolfin! Hang your head in shame!

maddawg IAJI:
come on think about this. i would rather have our most dangerous crimnals in a jail outside of the country then in here. its like alcatraz. if they escape where are they going to go there on an island.

There not criminals, none of them have had anything close to a proper trial. Thats the laws and basic foundations of THE country which is running this place.

Hman121:
Over 3000 terrorist attempts have been thwarted by the Guantanamo officials using torture techniques in order to keep the U.S safe.

Where are you getting this from? Would you listen to Mao Zedong? Joe McCarthy? Stalin? Did you feel Mein Kampf was an accurate historical reference? Do you perk up your ears when you hear: "Vatican scientists have recently found that..."?

TrevorOfCrete:

maddawg IAJI:
come on think about this. i would rather have our most dangerous crimnals in a jail outside of the country then in here. its like alcatraz. if they escape where are they going to go there on an island.

There not criminals, none of them have had anything close to a proper trial. Thats the laws and basic foundations of THE country which is running this place.

there terriosts who have killed hundred of people. thats proably qualifys them as dangerous criminals. also think about this if we held a trial we would need to put them in a jail. most jailed criminals would proably tear these guys apart. its safer for them in guantamno then in the states.

also guantanmo is runned by americans.

Aren't drugs and lie detectors more effective ways of getting good information from reluctant subjects? Torture is good for extracting confessions and breaking people prior to their show trials. If a country is angry and needs to see its government bringing "justice" to the people who wronged it, torture is an excellent way to satisfy the public's blood lust.

maddawg IAJI:

TrevorOfCrete:

maddawg IAJI:
come on think about this. i would rather have our most dangerous crimnals in a jail outside of the country then in here. its like alcatraz. if they escape where are they going to go there on an island.

There not criminals, none of them have had anything close to a proper trial. Thats the laws and basic foundations of THE country which is running this place.

there terriosts who have killed hundred of people. thats proably qualifys them as dangerous criminals. also think about this if we held a trial we would need to put them in a jail. most jailed criminals would proably tear these guys apart. its safer for them in guantamno then in the states.

also guantanmo is runned by americans.

No, they're alleged terrorists. They haven't had trials, so that's all they can be called.

Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor:
I can understand why he would do this but is it really a good idea? I mean we gain very useful information from torturing prisoners that save American lives. People can make the argument about it being a violation of the Constitution. But they are not American citizens so should they have those right? So is it a good idea? or a bad one?

Just wanted to ask all of y'all intelligent people out there.

Actually, I'd wager you're just getting tax dollars pissed against the wall whilst soldiers beat "suspicious" foreigners who haven't actually been convicted of anything.

"Why are they suspicious?"
"They're Muslims!"
"Oh, that's it?"
"They were on a train!"
"Clearly, criminal masterminds..."

orannis62:

maddawg IAJI:

TrevorOfCrete:

maddawg IAJI:
come on think about this. i would rather have our most dangerous crimnals in a jail outside of the country then in here. its like alcatraz. if they escape where are they going to go there on an island.

There not criminals, none of them have had anything close to a proper trial. Thats the laws and basic foundations of THE country which is running this place.

there terriosts who have killed hundred of people. thats proably qualifys them as dangerous criminals. also think about this if we held a trial we would need to put them in a jail. most jailed criminals would proably tear these guys apart. its safer for them in guantamno then in the states.

also guantanmo is runned by americans.

No, they're alleged terrorists. They haven't had trials, so that's all they can be called.

well if its good enough for the goverment its good enough for me.

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