Rogue One may be the worst Star Wars movie to date

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Qizx:

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

Because there are people out there, who are quite vocal in social media, who express a pathological level of hatred/dislike for something, without ever having actually seeing it. Just on the simple fact that it exists. So yes, there is some precedent for Kolby Jack's statement. Sure there are people who simply don't like things that are popular. We all have something like that. Like me for example, I can't stand the Thrawn trilogy, despite the majority of Star Wars fans considering it the fucking holy grail of writing. I think it's utter shit and that Thrawn is a ridiculous Marty Stu character. But hey, the majority of people like it, so whatever. I don't really care. You don't like TFA, fine, plenty of people don't like it either, some of them have legit reasons for their dislike of it, some are just unstable and volatile and toxic, and hate it simply because it's not the thing they already love. Those are the people Jack is referring to. If you're not one of those people, then his comment wasn't directed at you.

Happyninja42:

Qizx:

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

Because there are people out there, who are quite vocal in social media, who express a pathological level of hatred/dislike for something, without ever having actually seeing it. Just on the simple fact that it exists. So yes, there is some precedent for Kolby Jack's statement. Sure there are people who simply don't like things that are popular. We all have something like that. Like me for example, I can't stand the Thrawn trilogy, despite the majority of Star Wars fans considering it the fucking holy grail of writing. I think it's utter shit and that Thrawn is a ridiculous Marty Stu character. But hey, the majority of people like it, so whatever. I don't really care. You don't like TFA, fine, plenty of people don't like it either, some of them have legit reasons for their dislike of it, some are just unstable and volatile and toxic, and hate it simply because it's not the thing they already love. Those are the people Jack is referring to. If you're not one of those people, then his comment wasn't directed at you.

Oh for sure there are people that will hate something just to hate it, but I dislike the notion that when someone hates something it HAS to be for that reason. If someone hates something just to hate it, yeah they're a twat, but it's possible to hate something that a lot of people like and genuinely hate it for what it is.

Qizx:

Oh for sure there are people that will hate something just to hate it, but I dislike the notion that when someone hates something it HAS to be for that reason. If someone hates something just to hate it, yeah they're a twat, but it's possible to hate something that a lot of people like and genuinely hate it for what it is.

Yeah, but there are a decent number, on this site as Jack mentioned, that don't really explain why they don't like it. They just toss out "It sucks!" and go from there, even having not seen the movie at all. It is present on this site, the threads with click baity titles, unsubstantiated claims based on little to no evidence, stating an opinion as if it's a fact, etc. You don't have to dive too deep into the threads of this site to find a plethora (thank you 3 Amigos) of examples.

Saelune:

Fox12:
Worse then the prequels? Worse then The Force Awakens?! I don't actually think that's possible. The film could be nothing but four hours of watching John Water's taint, and it would still be much better then The Force Awakens.

Still, this is disappointing. I was hoping that this would be the film that reignited my faith in the franchise. Clearly this is not the case.

Did you see it? I should be seeing it tomorrow. I hated TFA, cause well, it was a poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue, and though I liked Finn, his escape was... counter to his characterization.

My brother and I have been watching the old Star Wars movies, and just have Return of the Jedi left, and its interesting seeing what I had not before, such as...Yoda is awful, and the original Trilogy put TOOOOOOONS of effort into either training Luke to be awesome, or giving a reason why he can do what he does.

But Rogue One, well, it is still going to rip off an old Star Wars, but its a now non-canon DOOM style FPS, so it wont bother me as much. (Though RIP Kyle Catarn). It being more focused on a smaller event and not staring a Jedi, makes me hopeful.

Still, the next Episode film I will be going in quite cynical, but we will see. Episode I was awful, but II and III were better than the one before it, if nothing else.

I haven't seen it yet. Unlike TFA, and many of the coming prequels, I actually liked the premise of this film. This will probably be the last Star Wars film I'll be seeing in a long time. I really want to like Star Wars, but Disney is making it rather difficult.

I would love to see more non-jedi related films, though. And films with new characters.

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.

I can flip that around, and just because you didn't like it, doesn't make it a bad film. And that plenty of us still think TFA was a perfectly fine movie. Your opinion that it's a bad film doesn't mean it's fact, as the definition of "bad" is incredibly nebulous, and different for everyone.

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.

A year later and the honeymoon isn't over? Okay. Also, Transformers was hated by critics. Critics like the new Star Wars movies, for the most part. So your comparison doesn't really hold up. It's pretty conceited to assume the majority of people are just delusional and will eventually come around to your way of thinking. It's okay if you don't like it, but don't insult other people's intelligence if they do.

At first I was worried it was actually getting completely panned, but then I saw who the OP was. Its good too see some things never change.

I'm looking forward to seeing it tomorrow, hopefully I enjoy it.

Qizx:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

I'm not saying people here ARE being hipsters, just that it FEELS like they are. Every topic about Star Wars people seem to come in and talk about how much they didn't like TFA. It sometimes causes me to forget that the movie was very well-received by critics and is one of the highest grossing movies of all time. I don't doubt people have their reasons for not liking it, but for some reason the minority opinion of not liking TFA seems like a majority here and I'm not sure why.

Kolby Jack:

Qizx:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

I mean not saying people are trying to be hipsters, I genuinely don't like TFA. From the moment I first saw it. Not sure where this idea of disliking something popular is a result of people actively WANTING to hate it. I genuinely think it was a stupid rehash, with stupid plot points, and a lot of other BS.

Coming from the guy who actually liked the prequels, I didn't think they were as good as the originals but damn they were fun.

EDIT: Shit I just realized I made it seem like I AM a hipster, liking the original prequels, hating TFA... I'm doomed I guess.

I'm not saying people here ARE being hipsters, just that it FEELS like they are. Every topic about Star Wars people seem to come in and talk about how much they didn't like TFA. It sometimes causes me to forget that the movie was very well-received by critics and is one of the highest grossing movies of all time. I don't doubt people have their reasons for not liking it, but for some reason the minority opinion of not liking TFA seems like a majority here and I'm not sure why.

It could partially be caused by people gravitating towards that discussion. If a person sees a thread talking about something they dislike, and why they dislike it, they are likely to jump in and say "yeah I agree." I mean sure some people will post disagreeing, but a lot of people who disagree would just go "oh yeah, well some people think that."

This is purely me talking out my ass, but just an idea of why it could seem that way.

Or this forum is filled with hipsters. I don't count myself among them, I listen to red hot chili peppers! I can't be a hipster!

Kolby Jack:

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.

A year later and the honeymoon isn't over? Okay. Also, Transformers was hated by critics. Critics like the new Star Wars movies, for the most part. So your comparison doesn't really hold up. It's pretty conceited to assume the majority of people are just delusional and will eventually come around to your way of thinking. It's okay if you don't like it, but don't insult other people's intelligence if they do.

Happyninja42:

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:
Most people liked TFA. Most people seem to like Rogue One. Not just audiences, but critics too. It's fine if you don't, but man, the Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Most people seem to like Transformers, but that doesn't make it a good film. I suspect that, once the honeymoon is over, the majority of people will look back and realize that TFA was a pretty bad film held together by match sticks and glue.

I can flip that around, and just because you didn't like it, doesn't make it a bad film. And that plenty of us still think TFA was a perfectly fine movie. Your opinion that it's a bad film doesn't mean it's fact, as the definition of "bad" is incredibly nebulous, and different for everyone.

A lot of projecting here. Why so insecure? I never insulted people for liking TFA. I never insulted anyone's intelligence. To be frank, I'm not sure where that argument is coming from.

But yes, I consider TFA be a bad film. It's lazy, and attempts to rehash the same story beats we've seen a thousand times before, not just in Star Wars, but in most heroes journey narratives. I could probably forgive this. Guardians of the Galaxy wasn't innovative, but I loved that movie. What I can't forgive are the myriad plot holes and conveniences. Luke lost his fathers light saber at the end Empire. It fell to the bottom of Cloud City. Why did some random old lady have it, and why didn't she return it if she knew who it belonged to? She seemed pretty chummy with Han. What are the chances that Han Solo would run into the main characters in the middle of space? That's ridiculous. Was it because the ship had a tracker on it? If it had a tracker on it, then why wasn't Han able to find it earlier? Had no one even turned it on in the several decades since it had been stolen? Then what was the point of even stealing it? Why were the rebels able to so easily destroy the third Death Star? In the original they had schematics. In this film they had a janitor who shouldn't have had this information. The whole thing feels like bad fan fiction. By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film. Pointing to rotten tomatoes doesn't change a thing. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's particularly good.

Fox12:
By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film.

You say this but you only covered bad writing. Are you sure you're not (let's say 40-50%) full of shit? Give us other standards of quality that TFA doesn't meet. I want to know because I want to hate it too >:^)

Fox12:

A lot of projecting here. Why so insecure?

Lol, someone pointing out that your statement is flawed is insecure? Yeah, sure, I'm just quivering over here in my shattered realm because of your statement. Again, flip that back, projecting much there?

Fox12:
I never insulted people for liking TFA. I never insulted anyone's intelligence. To be frank, I'm not sure where that argument is coming from.

Please point to the part where I said you insulted anyone's intelligence. You can't, because I didn't say that. Stop projecting. What I actually SAID was that what you said isn't a fact, even though you try to present it as one. And in a way you did insult people's intelligence, now that you bring it up, implying that the only reason they don't see things the way you do is because of some endorphin-like "honeymoon" feeling, and that once reason kicks in, they will see the way you do. Which is simply wrong.

Fox12:
But yes, I consider TFA be a bad film. It's lazy, and attempts to rehash the same story beats we've seen a thousand times before, not just in Star Wars, but in most heroes journey narratives. I could probably forgive this. Guardians of the Galaxy wasn't innovative, but I loved that movie. What I can't forgive are the myriad plot holes and conveniences. Luke lost his fathers light saber at the end Empire. It fell to the bottom of Cloud City. Why did some random old lady have it, and why didn't she return it if she knew who it belonged to? She seemed pretty chummy with Han. What are the chances that Han Solo would run into the main characters in the middle of space? That's ridiculous. Was it because the ship had a tracker on it? If it had a tracker on it, then why wasn't Han able to find it earlier? Had no one even turned it on in the several decades since it had been stolen? Then what was the point of even stealing it? Why were the rebels able to so easily destroy the third Death Star? In the original they had schematics. In this film they had a janitor who shouldn't have had this information. The whole thing feels like bad fan fiction. By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film. Pointing to rotten tomatoes doesn't change a thing. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's particularly good.

All of those are plot holes, which I'll agree, at least some are there. But again, your OPINION that it's a bad movie, is just that, an opinion. The fact that it has flaws isn't unique to TFA, every movie has those. And again you say "just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good", and again I say "Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean it's bad". And you have again not defined what "bad" means in this context. So plot holes = bad? Well then probably 99% of movies are bad, because they almost always have plot holes. Bad = you didn't enjoy it? Fine, that's an OPINION, not a fact, and people can disagree with your opinion, on the fact that they enjoyed it, thus making it a good movie.

Sure, rotten tomatoes doesn't mean shit, but I never pointed to rotten tomatoes, I pointed out that your assertion of fact, isn't fact, and is an opinion.

Qizx:

Ezekiel:

Saelune:
poor rehash of A New Hope with a mary sue

I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

I mean not going to go over her being Mary Sue again, but with Poe it at least kind of makes sense. He's the rebels best pilot, been piloting for a long time, so yeah he's going to be damn good at it. Not saying it's not a little annoying but it at least makes SENSE he's good.

Not that good. It's utter bullshit.


He takes out eleven TIE fighters and some ground troops in twenty seconds. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. How does he even know where the TIE fighters are going to be and how to maneuver into killing positions so quickly? It's like they all lined up for him. The targeting system isn't that quick either. Taking out one TIE fighter in the Battle of Yavin was a meaningful accomplishment, which JJ Abrams stupidly treats like a joke. It takes decades for even our best pilots to accomplish what Poe did in twenty seconds.

Ezekiel:

Qizx:

Ezekiel:
I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

I mean not going to go over her being Mary Sue again, but with Poe it at least kind of makes sense. He's the rebels best pilot, been piloting for a long time, so yeah he's going to be damn good at it. Not saying it's not a little annoying but it at least makes SENSE he's good.

Not that good. It's utter bullshit.


He takes out eleven TIE fighters and some ground troops in twenty seconds. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. How does he even know where the TIE fighters are going to be and how to maneuver into killing positions so quickly? It's like they all lined up for him. The targeting system isn't that quick either. Taking out one TIE fighter in the Battle of Yavin was a meaningful accomplishment, which JJ Abrams stupidly treats like a joke. It takes decades for even our best pilots to accomplish what Poe did in twenty seconds.

Remember that we're talking about a fantasy science fiction setting... One where laser weapons fire self contained bolts of glowing energy. We can basically write off all pretense to realism right there, especially when people wielding laser swords are handily beating people using laser guns. The Battle of Yavin was a high tension climactic chase to an objective, the presented battle in TFA was a chaotic bombastic action scene.

McElroy:

Fox12:
By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film.

You say this but you only covered bad writing. Are you sure you're not (let's say 40-50%) full of shit? Give us other standards of quality that TFA doesn't meet. I want to know because I want to hate it too >:^)

If say I'm about 20% full of shit : P

The film had a few redeeming qualities. The actors were okay, despite the material they were given to work with. The music was obviously superb, which is to be expected. These don't make a film good, though. This reminds me of when Jim Sterling said that the games of digital homicide had no redeeming qualities, and digital homicide replied that their gun noises were good. At some point the argument becomes overly pandentic. Furthermore, I would argue that the different aspects of film design are not weighed equally. Thus the good aspects of the film are heavily outweighed by the bad.

The plot of the film was poorly told, and filled with plot holes. For a story based film, this is the most important aspect of the movie. This is the one thing the film should get right. This is where it failed hardest. But it did fail in other areas. For instance, for all his faults, George Lucas did work to give the original films a certain authenticity. When he planned out fighter pilot scenes in A New Hope, he had his team study old WW2 fighter reels. They studied how gunners maneuvered in bomber planes while filming the Millenium Falcon turret scene. They made the fighters maneuver like real planes during the Death Star sequence. While the lightsaber fight in the first film was a little awkward, Sir Alec Guinness had taken actual fencing classes before, and they worked to improve this in later films. TFA lacks this authenticity. Fighters pull maneuvers and corners that look frankly impossible, and lack the realistic maneuverability of the original trilogy. Kylo Ren looks like he has no idea what he's doing. I get that with Rei, because she's never used a sword, but Ren should know better. The directing is eclectic and all over the place as well. It looks like Abrams was trying to show off, but he had no idea what he was doing. The scene where the camera flips upside down while the Falcon completes complex maneuvers was needlessly confusing and disorienting. A director should strive for clarity in their shots. I will say that the film was livelier then the prequels in the way it was shot, but it felt unfocused.

I'm not saying people are wrong for liking the movie, but it does bother me that people want to pretend that anyone who disliked it is just being pretentious. The film had legitimate problems.

Happyninja42:

Fox12:

A lot of projecting here. Why so insecure?

Lol, someone pointing out that your statement is flawed is insecure? Yeah, sure, I'm just quivering over here in my shattered realm because of your statement. Again, flip that back, projecting much there?

Fox12:
I never insulted people for liking TFA. I never insulted anyone's intelligence. To be frank, I'm not sure where that argument is coming from.

Please point to the part where I said you insulted anyone's intelligence. You can't, because I didn't say that. Stop projecting. What I actually SAID was that what you said isn't a fact, even though you try to present it as one. And in a way you did insult people's intelligence, now that you bring it up, implying that the only reason they don't see things the way you do is because of some endorphin-like "honeymoon" feeling, and that once reason kicks in, they will see the way you do. Which is simply wrong.

Fox12:
But yes, I consider TFA be a bad film. It's lazy, and attempts to rehash the same story beats we've seen a thousand times before, not just in Star Wars, but in most heroes journey narratives. I could probably forgive this. Guardians of the Galaxy wasn't innovative, but I loved that movie. What I can't forgive are the myriad plot holes and conveniences. Luke lost his fathers light saber at the end Empire. It fell to the bottom of Cloud City. Why did some random old lady have it, and why didn't she return it if she knew who it belonged to? She seemed pretty chummy with Han. What are the chances that Han Solo would run into the main characters in the middle of space? That's ridiculous. Was it because the ship had a tracker on it? If it had a tracker on it, then why wasn't Han able to find it earlier? Had no one even turned it on in the several decades since it had been stolen? Then what was the point of even stealing it? Why were the rebels able to so easily destroy the third Death Star? In the original they had schematics. In this film they had a janitor who shouldn't have had this information. The whole thing feels like bad fan fiction. By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film. Pointing to rotten tomatoes doesn't change a thing. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's particularly good.

All of those are plot holes, which I'll agree, at least some are there. But again, your OPINION that it's a bad movie, is just that, an opinion. The fact that it has flaws isn't unique to TFA, every movie has those. And again you say "just because it's popular doesn't mean it's good", and again I say "Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean it's bad". And you have again not defined what "bad" means in this context. So plot holes = bad? Well then probably 99% of movies are bad, because they almost always have plot holes. Bad = you didn't enjoy it? Fine, that's an OPINION, not a fact, and people can disagree with your opinion, on the fact that they enjoyed it, thus making it a good movie.

Sure, rotten tomatoes doesn't mean shit, but I never pointed to rotten tomatoes, I pointed out that your assertion of fact, isn't fact, and is an opinion.

Obviously I was referring to you and Kolby Jack together. In any case, I find this response tiring. I've seen it before. Obviously we all have opinions. The difference is that some of us have informed opinions, and some don't. I stated why I have the opinion I do. You did not. All you've done is complain that I disagreed with you.

There's nothing wron with saying that critical reception changes over time. Many classic films were poorly recieved when released. After many years of critical analysis, their quality was recognized. Other films were successful upon release, but were eventually looked upon poorly. This is natural, as people analyze films after repeat viewing. This doesn't make people stupid. I suspect time will not be kind to TFA, after people have had time to look back on it, based on its stated flaws.

I saw Rouge One and thought it was alright. The characters weren't as memorable as they should have been: What I mean is, there are a couple of characters who were pretty bad-ass but their names were either unused or used quietly so there was this weird effect with me whereby I couldn't tell you the names of more than a couple of them. I liked the action set-pieces but there was a cringy pun and if it wasn't for a couple of the cameos I might not have liked this movie as much.

I'm curious to see if we end up getting a movie that takes place between Empire and Return of the Jedi. There's a lot of interesting things that could have happened and before the Disney buy-out there were interesting stories told from that time frame. Many Bothans died to get the plans to the second Death Star, Dash Rendar helped to get the plans to the second Death Star. Darth Vader was beefing with Prince Xizor of the Black Sun crime syndicate. Luke built a new lightsaber and presumably studied the ways of The Force on his own...there's a lot of fertile ground for new Star Wars stories...but I want to see this shit made into feature films.

Fox12:
While the lightsaber fight in the first film was a little awkward, Sir Alec Guinness had taken actual fencing classes before, and they worked to improve this in later films. ... Kylo Ren looks like he has no idea what he's doing. I get that with Rei, because she's never used a sword, but Ren should know better.

The understated lightsaber duels in the original trilogy and the flamboyant sequences in the prequels both have their place. The original trilogy duels are filled with subtle tension. The music cuts out a lot of the time, the lights are low, spaces are largely confined, and the actor's body language conveys a great deal of emotion. In the prequels, the action is much bigger and fancier, and hurtling through the air is very common. Each fighter has a particular style of their own. TFA operates on an uncomfortable level between them; it clearly doesn't want to operate in the same way as the prequels, but it's like they didn't have the guts to do a full "original trilogy" on the cinematography and score.

Ezekiel:

Qizx:

Ezekiel:
I see why they did it, at least with her force skills. They didn't want the viewer to go through the same jedi learning steps they watched in the OT and to a lesser extent in the PT. I didn't wanna start from the beginning again either, which is why I would have written her as an already trained jedi. I know it doesn't explain all her other skills.

I still don't know why Poe never gets called out for being a Marty Stu. That tripe ace dogfighting scene was far more ridiculous and frustrating than anything the reincarnated amnesia girl pulled off. He made Wedge Antilles look like a joke.

I mean not going to go over her being Mary Sue again, but with Poe it at least kind of makes sense. He's the rebels best pilot, been piloting for a long time, so yeah he's going to be damn good at it. Not saying it's not a little annoying but it at least makes SENSE he's good.

Not that good. It's utter bullshit.


He takes out eleven TIE fighters and some ground troops in twenty seconds. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. How does he even know where the TIE fighters are going to be and how to maneuver into killing positions so quickly? It's like they all lined up for him. The targeting system isn't that quick either. Taking out one TIE fighter in the Battle of Yavin was a meaningful accomplishment, which JJ Abrams stupidly treats like a joke. It takes decades for even our best pilots to accomplish what Poe did in twenty seconds.

That was one of my favorite scenes in the whole film. It reminded me of my exploits playing the Rogue Squadron games.

It's not wholly outside the realms of possibility. A number of German aces scored over 100 kills during World War II. Erich Hartmann led the pack with an astonishing 352 Allied aircraft shot down. Besides, the old EU built up pilots like Wedge to have similar performances. I remember a passage from one of the X-Wing novels where the ground crew literally ran out of room to paint more kill marks on Wedge's X-Wing. They eventually had to settle for using a different color to differentiate a squadron's worth from individual ships.

Fox12:
I'm not saying people are wrong for liking the movie, but it does bother me that people want to pretend that anyone who disliked it is just being pretentious. The film had legitimate problems.

Here's the major issue you don't seem to realize though. Anyone can find problems in any film. The nature of opinions is how much those problems matter to someone in the end. Yes, opinions can cultivate and change over time, but expressing assurance that they will is just arrogance. So yes, you dislike TFA for the flaws it had. Valid. Plenty of other people who like the movie ALSO see those flaws, though, and still like the movie. Equally valid. Reality check: you can't go around saying your opinion is the one true, informed opinion and then wonder why people call you conceited.

As for why I'm not trying to counter any of your points against the film... well, this topic isn't about TFA. I don't want to go down that road. If that confirms your suspicions that I have no leg to stand on, well, I don't care.

Kolby Jack:

Here's the major issue you don't seem to realize though. Anyone can find problems in any film. The nature of opinions is how much those problems matter to someone in the end. Yes, opinions can cultivate and change over time, but expressing assurance that they will is just arrogance. So yes, you dislike TFA for the flaws it had. Valid. Plenty of other people who like the movie ALSO see those flaws, though, and still like the movie. Equally valid. Reality check: you can't go around saying your opinion is the one true, informed opinion and then wonder why people call you conceited.

Sorry, you don't get to play that card when you were the one calling everyone pretentious hipsters for ragging on your favorite movie.

As for why I'm not trying to counter any of your points against the film... well, this topic isn't about TFA. I don't want to go down that road. If that confirms your suspicions that I have no leg to stand on, well, I don't care.

It does.
image

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:

Here's the major issue you don't seem to realize though. Anyone can find problems in any film. The nature of opinions is how much those problems matter to someone in the end. Yes, opinions can cultivate and change over time, but expressing assurance that they will is just arrogance. So yes, you dislike TFA for the flaws it had. Valid. Plenty of other people who like the movie ALSO see those flaws, though, and still like the movie. Equally valid. Reality check: you can't go around saying your opinion is the one true, informed opinion and then wonder why people call you conceited.

Sorry, you don't get to play that card when you were the one calling everyone pretentious hipsters for ragging on your favorite movie.

If you actually bothered to read my posts, I never called anyone a hipster. Nice informed response, there, pal.

Kolby Jack:

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:

Here's the major issue you don't seem to realize though. Anyone can find problems in any film. The nature of opinions is how much those problems matter to someone in the end. Yes, opinions can cultivate and change over time, but expressing assurance that they will is just arrogance. So yes, you dislike TFA for the flaws it had. Valid. Plenty of other people who like the movie ALSO see those flaws, though, and still like the movie. Equally valid. Reality check: you can't go around saying your opinion is the one true, informed opinion and then wonder why people call you conceited.

Sorry, you don't get to play that card when you were the one calling everyone pretentious hipsters for ragging on your favorite movie.

If you actually bothered to read my posts, I never called anyone a hipster. Nice informed response, there, pal.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you man. I didn't much care for TFA. I told you why. It's not because I'm being contrarian, and it's not because I'm trying to be a hipster. I don't much care for the implication that I think people are stupid for liking the movie. I never said that. Yes, I think it's a bad film. I stated why. Yes, I don't think history will remember this film kindly. I don't expect people to get really critical until after the new trilogy is over, but once people have gotten over the star wars hype a little bit I suspect the film will be seen in a rather negative light. That's still years away. That doesn't mean I think people are stupid for enjoying it now.

If I'm critical of the film, and others like it, then it's only because I'm rather disappointed with the direction Hollywood has been going in. Disney, and Hollywood, could do so much more, but they're typically content with mediocrity. When I see someone as lazy as J.J. Abrams in charge of Star Wars, I tend to get pretty annoyed.

Kolby Jack:
The Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA.

Alright man.

Having seen Rogue One yesterday (Thursday the 15th) at a screening event I can say that I liked the movie and that it is good.

It is by no means perfect, there are problems, but on the whole it was an enjoyable movie, and one which I liked more than The Force Awakens, and much more than the prequels, landing it squarely on the "better half" of the star wars movies.

I might make a separate spoiler filled thread about what I thought the movie did well, and what I thought didn't work, but on the whole I can say that I found it very enjoyable in a way I haven't found Star Wars enjoyable in a very long time.

Fox12:

I mean, I don't know what to tell you man. I didn't much care for TFA. I told you why. It's not because I'm being contrarian, and it's not because I'm trying to be a hipster. I don't much care for the implication that I think people are stupid for liking the movie. I never said that. Yes, I think it's a bad film. I stated why. Yes, I don't think history will remember this film kindly. I don't expect people to get really critical until after the new trilogy is over, but once people have gotten over the star wars hype a little bit I suspect the film will be seen in a rather negative light. That's still years away. That doesn't mean I think people are stupid for enjoying it now.

If I'm critical of the film, and others like it, then it's only because I'm rather disappointed with the direction Hollywood has been going in. Disney, and Hollywood, could do so much more, but they're typically content with mediocrity. When I see someone as lazy as J.J. Abrams in charge of Star Wars, I tend to get pretty annoyed.

Well that sounds awfully cynical to me, but it's not my problem. I will say that some of your criticisms of the plot could easily be resolved in the later movies because this is a planned trilogy. I mean if they never explain how Anakin's lightsaber was found, or if Rey continues to accomplish all her goals without much struggle, then I'll agree with those criticisms for sure. If it were a stand-alone film you'd be right on the money, but we haven't seen the whole story yet. I mean, Luke hasn't even spoken yet! There's a LOT we don't know.

Also, J.J. Abrams isn't directing the next two movies, so I don't really see what the concern with him is.

Fox12:

Kolby Jack:
The Escapist forums sure feel like Hipster City with all the people who say they don't like TFA. It makes it feel like a majority opinion when it's obviously not.

Alright man.

Hey man, I think you forgot to include that last sentence there which provides a lot of context, making my post sound more surprised at how many people here dislike TFA rather than just calling everyone here a hipster like some kind of douche. I'm sure that was a total accident, so I added that back in there for ya, champ. :)

Kolby Jack:

I'm not saying people here ARE being hipsters, just that it FEELS like they are. Every topic about Star Wars people seem to come in and talk about how much they didn't like TFA. It sometimes causes me to forget that the movie was very well-received by critics and is one of the highest grossing movies of all time. I don't doubt people have their reasons for not liking it, but for some reason the minority opinion of not liking TFA seems like a majority here and I'm not sure why.

Alright, indeed.

I'm gonna blow the minds of every single person here. Ready?

I love the originals, I loved TFA, AND I loved Rogue One.

How about that? Mind blown, right?
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Prequels still suck

"The worst Star Wars movie to date"? Clearly someone has never seen Ewoks: The Battle for Endor.

Neverhoodian:

Ezekiel:

Qizx:

I mean not going to go over her being Mary Sue again, but with Poe it at least kind of makes sense. He's the rebels best pilot, been piloting for a long time, so yeah he's going to be damn good at it. Not saying it's not a little annoying but it at least makes SENSE he's good.

Not that good. It's utter bullshit.


He takes out eleven TIE fighters and some ground troops in twenty seconds. Bullshit bullshit bullshit. How does he even know where the TIE fighters are going to be and how to maneuver into killing positions so quickly? It's like they all lined up for him. The targeting system isn't that quick either. Taking out one TIE fighter in the Battle of Yavin was a meaningful accomplishment, which JJ Abrams stupidly treats like a joke. It takes decades for even our best pilots to accomplish what Poe did in twenty seconds.

That was one of my favorite scenes in the whole film. It reminded me of my exploits playing the Rogue Squadron games.

It's not wholly outside the realms of possibility. A number of German aces scored over 100 kills during World War II. Erich Hartmann led the pack with an astonishing 352 Allied aircraft shot down. Besides, the old EU built up pilots like Wedge to have similar performances. I remember a passage from one of the X-Wing novels where the ground crew literally ran out of room to paint more kill marks on Wedge's X-Wing. They eventually had to settle for using a different color to differentiate a squadron's worth from individual ships.

I'm with Mr. Plinkett when he says the only thing that matters are the movies. I've enjoyed a few EU games, but I never use the EU as evidence of anything. Erich Hartmann amassed his record over the course of 825 battles. He could never have accomplished what Poe did. Not with turns like that, in twenty seconds.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime:
Remember that we're talking about a fantasy science fiction setting... One where laser weapons fire self contained bolts of glowing energy. We can basically write off all pretense to realism right there, especially when people wielding laser swords are handily beating people using laser guns. The Battle of Yavin was a high tension climactic chase to an objective, the presented battle in TFA was a chaotic bombastic action scene.

Action scenes are usually more breathtaking and intense when they're somewhat grounded. Why do you think people liked the lightsaber battle in VII so much? It was intense and raw. Lucas modeled his battles after WWII dogfights, which is what made them so engaging. JJ Abrams totally ignored that.

Cold Shiny:
I'm gonna blow the minds of every single person here. Ready?

I love the originals, I loved TFA, AND I loved Rogue One.

How about that? Mind blown, right?

Fanboy, I say, fanboy! :p

But hey, you want your mind blown? Here's how I rank the films:

9) The Clone Wars

8) Attack of the Clones

7) Rogue One

6) The Phantom Menace

5) The Force Awakens

4) The Empire Strikes Back

3) Revenge of the Sith

2) Return of the Jedi

1) A New Hope

...come at me!

Ezekiel:
Action scenes are usually more breathtaking and intense when they're somewhat grounded. Why do you think people liked the lightsaber battle in VII so much?

Wait, people liked that scene? I've never heard anyone praise it, even those who like TFA. For me, it's the worst lightsaber duel in all the movies, without any payoff on the wow or emotional factors.

Ezekiel:
Lucas modeled his battles after WWII dogfights, which is what made them so engaging. JJ Abrams totally ignored that.

If you're going for realism, then that's hardly an endorsement, since fighting in a vacuum shouldn't function anything like fighting in atmosphere. But while I can fault TFA for quite a bit, I can't fault Poe's piloting skills, least in that scene - not when you consider the type of setting Star Wars is. If anything, piloting a TIE fighter and single-handedly knocking out a Star Destroyer's weapons is the larger leap of faith, or Han being so good that he can draw the Millennium Falcon out of hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere (i.e. coming to the exact point required while travelling at over the speed of light).

Hawki:

Ezekiel:
Action scenes are usually more breathtaking and intense when they're somewhat grounded. Why do you think people liked the lightsaber battle in VII so much?

Wait, people liked that scene? I've never heard anyone praise it, even those who like TFA. For me, it's the worst lightsaber duel in all the movies, without any payoff on the wow or emotional factors.

I remember people appreciating that the combatants used their weapons with brute force (Rey apparently wielded it like her staff earlier in the movie.) and emotion, and not doing a bunch of useless, exhausting twirls and spins like in the prequels. They also liked how the sabers burned into the snow and how the characters were grazed and crippled. I would rank it between the prequels and originals, with Jedi and Empire being at the top.

Maybe my opinion will change when I see it again tomorrow or the day after. I was kind of disappointed to see today that Netflix has shipped it. I should have moved it further down my queue.

Hawki:
If you're going for realism, then that's hardly an endorsement, since fighting in a vacuum shouldn't function anything like fighting in atmosphere. But while I can fault TFA for quite a bit, I can't fault Poe's piloting skills, least in that scene - not when you consider the type of setting Star Wars is. If anything, piloting a TIE fighter and single-handedly knocking out a Star Destroyer's weapons is the larger leap of faith, or Han being so good that he can draw the Millennium Falcon out of hyperspace within a planet's atmosphere (i.e. coming to the exact point required while travelling at over the speed of light).

Well, it's fantasy, but it has its own rules and limitations, which Abrams threw out the window.

McElroy:

Fox12:
By any standard of quality you choose to use, TFA was a bad film.

You say this but you only covered bad writing. Are you sure you're not (let's say 40-50%) full of shit? Give us other standards of quality that TFA doesn't meet. I want to know because I want to hate it too >:^)

Well, Rey's facial expressions tend to be rather wonky. Not NEARLY a good reason to even bash on the film, let alone hate it, but Daisy Ridley's facial expressions are just weird to me. It's like she regularly makes some new form of duck face...

Seriously, what's UP with that? Who makes a face like that when aiming a gun? Then there's her angry face.

Or her running face where she has her teeth exposed like she's filtering out the air or something.

Again, not even a reason to bash the movie, but Daisy needs to work on her facial expressions when acting. I know overacting facial expressions have always been a thing in this series, but they were called for with the first two trilogies. The characters were either in great pain or horrible emotional distress. Rey just...does them.

undeadsuitor:
Worse than sand?

you know, its course and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.

I hate sand.

heh...

The only Star Wars movie that would interest me is a Stand Alone Darth Vader movie as the protaginist.

Samtemdo8:
The only Star Wars movie that would interest me is a Stand Alone Darth Vader movie as the protaginist.

Only if it's a slice of life, showing how miserable it is to be Darth Vader.


I don't want Vader to be glorified any more than he already has been. The entire film series has featured Anakin now. Let it go.

I can't say I much enjoyed The Force Awakens that much. Mary Sue's Adventure in the Star War's Universe didn't appeal much to me.

So, I'll probably skip Rogue One.

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