denseWorm: Bullet-topic - INCEPTION, or, Ocean's Fifteen (fifteen?)

I watched Inception a few weeks ago. Among the various reactions I had to it (i.e. it was just another crap hollywood big-visuals film which happened to have a story that I could be mildly invested in) was a brief moment of epiphany: Inception is just another Ocean's Eleven style movie!

It's all about an impossible objective, assembling a crack team of witty helpers (excluding a certain right-hand man who's there from the start - Brad Pitt or, in this case, the weedy guy who shouldn't gel his hair), developing a scenario, realising the target is smart and prepared, getting screwed over and having to think your way out.

Hell even the whole timing-based thing was a bit ocean's'ish, and don't get me started on all the drama associated with the protagonist's wife (who invariably gets in the way of the operation somehow)

Yes, Inception's creator needs to be told that he actually lifted the story from Ocean's Eleven. And he's crap because of it.

RAWR, PERSON WHO HAS DIFFERENT OPINION TO ME MUST DIE, RAWR!

Ahem. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, on goes the constructive criticism hat. Simply put, your review is too short. You don't really explain anything about the film other than that you don't like it and that it has some similarities to Ocean's Eleven. That isn't really a review. A review weighs up the pros and cons of a film, and explains the reviewer's opinion on it in a detailed way. All this is is four ultra-short paragraphs saying that think the film is a steamy pile of crap because of... something(?) and that it takes some elements from Ocean's Eleven.

I understand that you put "Bullet-topic" in the title, inferring that this would be a short thing and, naturally, a topic instead of a review, but I'm afraid that if you wanted to make a topic you should have put it in the Off-Topic section. This is the User Reviews section.

Note: I swear none of this criticism comes from the fact that I have three Inception wallpapers set to swap between each other at random times, that I own a physical copy of the soundtrack CD and will buy the crap out of the DVD when it comes out. I swear it on... this piece of chocolate right next to me.

SomeBoredGuy:
RAWR, PERSON WHO HAS DIFFERENT OPINION TO ME MUST DIE, RAWR!

Ahem. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, on goes the constructive criticism hat. Simply put, your review is too short. You don't really explain anything about the film other than that you don't like it and that it has some similarities to Ocean's Eleven. That isn't really a review. A review weighs up the pros and cons of a film, and explains the reviewer's opinion on it in a detailed way. All this is is four ultra-short paragraphs saying that think the film is a steamy pile of crap because of... something(?) and that it takes some elements from Ocean's Eleven.

I understand that you put "Bullet-topic" in the title, inferring that this would be a short thing and, naturally, a topic instead of a review, but I'm afraid that if you wanted to make a topic you should have put it in the Off-Topic section. This is the User Reviews section.

Note: I swear none of this criticism comes from the fact that I have three Inception wallpapers set to swap between each other at random times, that I own a physical copy of the soundtrack CD and will buy the crap out of the DVD when it comes out. I swear it on... this piece of chocolate right next to me.

Hoy there.

I was wow'd when the Matrix came out, so I know how it feels to be overwhelmed by a dramatic soundtrack and flashy visuals (the difference being, Matrix was one of the absolute first to use that kind of technology, Inception is somewhere in the order or the three thousandth >.>)

Anyways, I admit fault. I have been a habitual poster on this forum for a while and in the guise or urprobablyright have been posting on this site for three years or so. One of the things i occasionally do is bite-sized reviews and, i think, i took that concept a step too far with the brevity of this review - and the lack of editing.

You're also right in saying that this should belong in the off-topic discussion forum, but I felt that it counted as some kind of review (if only of the plot) and assumed I'd get responses of the nature I wanted if I posted here. I stand by that decision.

I also stand by my opinion of Inception. If you want an excellent philosophical movie with crazy graphics, an epic soundtrack and quirky-but-functional casting choices then go for The Matrix 1 (chances are u've seen it already, i realise)

*thumps chest and gives peace sign*

denseWorm:

SomeBoredGuy:
RAWR, PERSON WHO HAS DIFFERENT OPINION TO ME MUST DIE, RAWR!

Ahem. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, on goes the constructive criticism hat. Simply put, your review is too short. You don't really explain anything about the film other than that you don't like it and that it has some similarities to Ocean's Eleven. That isn't really a review. A review weighs up the pros and cons of a film, and explains the reviewer's opinion on it in a detailed way. All this is is four ultra-short paragraphs saying that think the film is a steamy pile of crap because of... something(?) and that it takes some elements from Ocean's Eleven.

I understand that you put "Bullet-topic" in the title, inferring that this would be a short thing and, naturally, a topic instead of a review, but I'm afraid that if you wanted to make a topic you should have put it in the Off-Topic section. This is the User Reviews section.

Note: I swear none of this criticism comes from the fact that I have three Inception wallpapers set to swap between each other at random times, that I own a physical copy of the soundtrack CD and will buy the crap out of the DVD when it comes out. I swear it on... this piece of chocolate right next to me.

Hoy there.

I was wow'd when the Matrix came out, so I know how it feels to be overwhelmed by a dramatic soundtrack and flashy visuals (the difference being, Matrix was one of the absolute first to use that kind of technology, Inception is somewhere in the order or the three thousandth >.>)

Anyways, I admit fault. I have been a habitual poster on this forum for a while and in the guise or urprobablyright have been posting on this site for three years or so. One of the things i occasionally do is bite-sized reviews and, i think, i took that concept a step too far with the brevity of this review - and the lack of editing.

You're also right in saying that this should belong in the off-topic discussion forum, but I felt that it counted as some kind of review (if only of the plot) and assumed I'd get responses of the nature I wanted if I posted here. I stand by that decision.

I also stand by my opinion of Inception. If you want an excellent philosophical movie with crazy graphics, an epic soundtrack and quirky-but-functional casting choices then go for The Matrix 1 (chances are u've seen it already, i realise)

*thumps chest and gives peace sign*

Well, I'm not saying your opinion is in any way wrong. Your opinion is just as good as mine. It's just the way you express it in User Reviews could do with some work. But anyway, let's just agree to disagree on the film.

Ocean's Eleven is not the end-all group-heist movie.

Hell, the Ocean's you're talking about isn't even the first Ocean's film! The first Ocean's film came out in 1960 and starred the Rat Pack.

Inception is, like every other movie ever made built on the foundation of a trope. Not a cliché, not plagiarism, but a trope.

Take a look for yourself

I don't have a problem with people having different opinions, but you're talking shit when you're saying Inception lifted the story from Ocean's eleven. Next you'll be telling me 2001: A Space Odyssey is ripping off Star Wars because they're both in space.

But central to the whole plot is the idea of delving into people's minds. I must have slept through that part of Ocean's. From the tone of the movie to the content I'm just not seeing what ever you saw in either of those films.

That isn't a review. You barely mention the plot, the story, or even the idea that it builds itself upon. How it's story, though complex to many, is actually really simple to understand and how all the actors do a fantastic job playing their role.

You didn't mention the mystery that surrounds Leonardo Di Capro's character and his wife, you didn't go into detail about what they do for a living or how they do it,you didn't even touch base on a single character outside one.

How exactly did you get the impression that Ocean Eleven, a movie about robbing a casino in Las Vegas by gathering a team of elite thieves is the same (And in fact stolen) as a movie about a group of crack psychologists, chemists and a young architect who have to journey into the sub-conscious of a billionaire to place an idea in his head to stop him from building a monopoly?

maddawg IAJI:

How exactly did you get the impression that Ocean Eleven, a movie about robbing a casino in Las Vegas by gathering a team of elite thieves is the same (And in fact stolen) as a movie about a group of crack psychologists, chemists and a young architect who have to journey into the sub-conscious of a billionaire to place an idea in his head to stop him from building a monopoly?

Correction:

Ocean's Eleven, a movie about robbing a casino in Las Vegas by gathering a group of crack thieves, actors, gamblers, celebrities and a young protege who have to journey into the bowels of a billionaire's casino to steal from his most heavily guarded vault?

(see what I did there? - I showed how you cannot possibly be serious in saying that the group make-up from Inception is any different from that of the Ocean's movies, especially in terms of relative proficiency in member's respective roles)

*hits a snare drum*

Btw, I've already talked in a previous post here about how this post was not intended to be a full review (though it could be seen as a brief plot review - hence my posting it on this forum) though I can understand why you didn't read the other posts on the forum before writing yours.

Finally, I will say that there is a certain amount of mystery about Danny Ocean's wife until it is revealed grudgingly, just like in Inception.

Rylot:
But central to the whole plot is the idea of delving into people's minds. I must have slept through that part of Ocean's.

There's a difference between plot details and plot structure. In ocean's they delved into people's vaults.

Hubilub:

I don't have a problem with people having different opinions, but you're talking shit when you're saying Inception lifted the story from Ocean's eleven. Next you'll be telling me 2001: A Space Odyssey is ripping off Star Wars because they're both in space.

a) clearly you do have a problem with it and

b) Not only would I never say that, it's not a good example of a similar mistake, try: "Next you'll be telling me that Magnificent Seven ripped off The Seven Samurai" ... and btw it did. Just like Inception has lifted it's story from Ocean's 11 (though that's not a perfect example either as I'm pretty sure the makers of the Magnificent Seven acknowledged that Seven Samurai was their inspiration)

Look, this is no great movie. It's no Matrix (itself nothing stupendous), it's no Space Odyssey (which was bit ground breaking in it's day) so you guys are really selling yourselves short in defending it with such starry eyes! Have some discernment!

denseWorm:

maddawg IAJI:

How exactly did you get the impression that Ocean Eleven, a movie about robbing a casino in Las Vegas by gathering a team of elite thieves is the same (And in fact stolen) as a movie about a group of crack psychologists, chemists and a young architect who have to journey into the sub-conscious of a billionaire to place an idea in his head to stop him from building a monopoly?

Correction:

Ocean's Eleven, a movie about robbing a casino in Las Vegas by gathering a group of crack thieves, actors, gamblers, celebrities and a young protege who have to journey into the bowels of a billionaire's casino to steal from his most heavily guarded vault?

(see what I did there? - I showed how you cannot possibly be serious in saying that the group make-up from Inception is any different from that of the Ocean's movies, especially in terms of relative proficiency in member's respective roles)

*hits a snare drum*

Btw, I've already talked in a previous post here about how this post was not intended to be a full review (though it could be seen as a brief plot review - hence my posting it on this forum) though I can understand why you didn't read the other posts on the forum before writing yours.

Finally, I will say that there is a certain amount of mystery about Danny Ocean's wife until it is revealed grudgingly, just like in Inception.

Under your logic, The Da Vinci code lifts its plot from National Treasure. Both groups follow cryptic clues left behind by someone from the past, like OH MY GOD! THAT WRITER IS SUCH A THIEF!

The Italin Job also lifts it's plot from Ocean's Eleven as it too involves using a complex scheme created by a large group of thieves with different strengths to steal money from a millionaire.

You're reading too much into it, Inception deals with the Human psyche and manipulating a person through tricking them with the use of things not normally possible by going into the world that can break the fabric of space and time. Your taking the core plot and linking it to a movie, and even then it is only the pieces you want.

I pointed that out because you posted it here, so somewhere, deep in your thought, you believed that this belonged here as a review.

denseWorm:
If you want an excellent philosophical movie with crazy graphics, an epic soundtrack and quirky-but-functional casting choices then go for The Matrix

Ok, so where was The Matrix philosophical? I must have missed that part.

denseWorm:

a) clearly you do have a problem with it and

Right, I have a problem with people's opinions because I think your observation is a load of bullocks. How could I forget that if you disagree with anything anyone says, you have a problem with people having different opinions.

And my example is indeed very poor, but not for the reasons you are stating, but because Space Odyssey came out before Star Wars. Silly mistake of me. Other than that, my example makes sense.

You are accusing a film of plagiarism when all it has ever done is use a trope another film has used. I consider that about as good of an argument as accusing a film of plagiarism for having a similar setting.

I will say this again: Ocean's Eleven is not the first, nor the best heist film featuring a colorful ensemble. Did you even read the trope I linked? Your entire argument boils down to the two films sharing a trope, and since one of them came out first then the other is stealing its story. That's it.

Look, this is no great movie. It's no Matrix (itself nothing stupendous), it's no Space Odyssey (which was bit ground breaking in it's day) so you guys are really selling yourselves short in defending it with such starry eyes! Have some discernment!

Did it ever hit you that we are defending Inception because we (rightfully) think your logic makes no sense? This thread is on the same level as that "Super Mario and Halo are the same thing" thread earlier.

You give away the impression that you so desperately want a justified reason for hating this film and it's creator and prove everyone who likes it wrong that you come up with bullshit reasons like this.

Cpt_Oblivious:

denseWorm:
If you want an excellent philosophical movie with crazy graphics, an epic soundtrack and quirky-but-functional casting choices then go for The Matrix

Ok, so where was The Matrix philosophical? I must have missed that part.

The Matrix, and its sequels in particular, is heavily based on the post-structuralist philosophies of Jean Baudrillard, specifically the work Simulacra and Simulation. The problem with this is that Baudrillard was more rhetorical than actually philosophical. To quote Confused Matthew:

Simulacra and Simulation was the philosophical equivalent of a placebo. You can toss it in the trash. There's nothing in it. And Baudrillard was a self-important pseudo-intellectual who had no point to make, had an undying love for hearing himself talk, and was criticized by his peers numerous times for indulging in willful obscurantism, refusing to qualify his claims, not defining his terms and therefore writing unintelligible books.

Of course, Baudrillard has gone on record saying that the Wachowski's work was a distortion of his ideas, but the fact that these films are so deliberately inscrutable points to plying very close to the post-modern mentality that seeks to seem intelligent instead of being intelligent.

Inception, on the other hand, isn't based on any specific work of philosophy, but certainly seems to aim towards a Jungian mentality. With the team operating on an intellectual level - that of the animus - the emotions of one of the team's members represents the shadow and must be overcome and moved through in order to reach the conclusion of the story and a measure of enlightenment. To me, this examination of the psyche is much more intuitive, intelligible and enjoyable than anything based on the pseudo-intellectual post-modern tripe prevalent in The Matrix and its sequels. I may still enjoy The Matrix but, like watching or reading any work set in Star Wars, the presence of shitty derivative works waters my enthusiasm considerably.

OT: This seems incredibly short for a review. It seems more like an op-ed piece, and a deliberately opinionated one at that. We're all entitled to our opinions, but disliking a work because it falls into a particular category (The Caper, in this case) seems short-sighted and deliberately obtuse. If you discount a work's merit on this basis alone, you're not giving it a chance. A completely new story told badly isn't as good as an old story told well just because it's new.

denseWorm:
(though it could be seen as a brief plot review - hence my posting it on this forum)

How? By whom? You barely mention any plot information whatsoever short of the bits you need to support your flimsy argument. The details of the plots, the tone in which the story is told, the nuances and interactions of the characters are entirely different. Paraphrasing MovieBob, the differences in caper flicks between Inception and Ocean's Eleven is the difference between a home-made cookie and one from a bag.

Why is this in user reviews?

This seems more like an off topic thing. God forbid this is your idea of a review.

Cpt_Oblivious:
Ok, so where was The Matrix philosophical? I must have missed that part.

Alright alright, lots of haters here.

Look, a few things to say

Firstly, when you look at plot structure - not plot content - it is impossible to deny that there are strong links between the Ocean's Eleven formula and this one. Maybe my implying that the director must have lifted the story was a bit harsh but that was what I wrote down, and everyone's lively input has been valued and appreciated.

I'll also reiterate that to say Inception is a movie about hacking people's mind in this thread would be incorrect, as this thread is dealing with structure and tropes, not actual plot content.

BTW, the Matrix not philosophical? I think you'll find that if you think back (unless you were, oh, 8 years old when it came out?) then one of the biggest selling points of the matrix was it's whole philosophy about a 'world within a world', and the nature of existence, our perception of self, and also thoughts about good balancing out evil etc. Remember the collective few hours of footage in the trilogy as a whole devoted to philosophical ramblings? Remember the merovingian? The oracle? Hell even Agent Smith?

I'm no Matrix fanboy - I was using it as a comparison to Inception - but I resent that someone actually had the balls to think they could get away with adding in a flawed accusation, in saying a movie like the Matrix was not philosophical. Did you even watch the movie?

By popular demand, I shall write an inception review - an entire shebang - this afternoon when I have free time

denseWorm:
BTW, the Matrix not philosophical? I think you'll find that if you think back (unless you were, oh, 8 years old when it came out?) then one of the biggest selling points of the matrix was it's whole philosophy about a 'world within a world', and the nature of existence, our perception of self, and also thoughts about good balancing out evil etc. Remember the collective few hours of footage in the trilogy as a whole devoted to philosophical ramblings? Remember the merovingian? The oracle? Hell even Agent Smith?

I'm no Matrix fanboy - I was using it as a comparison to Inception - but I resent that someone actually had the balls to think they could get away with adding in a flawed accusation, in saying a movie like the Matrix was not philosophical. Did you even watch the movie?

I went out of my way to point out that The Matrix and its sequels are, as you said, philosophical.

They're just based on bad philosophy. Pseudo-philosophy, if you will.

Also, I wasn't speaking from a position of hate. Well, maybe when it comes to Baudrillard. I mean, this is the guy who said "The TV watches you." No, I'm not hating on your opinion, and if it seems I am, I apologize. It just seems you need more support for your argument, from my perspective.

 

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