Breaking News: President Tells Obvious Lie

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I know what you're thinking. But let me inject some suspense into an otherwise stale criticism - with a pop quiz!

Which of these statements are lies that the president has told?

1 - "Today's Democrats have embraced radical socialism and open borders. If you don't have borders, you don't have a country, folks, you don't have a country. Every single Democrat in the US Senate has signed up for the Open Borders - and it's a bill! It's called the Open Borders Bill! What's going on?"

2 - "As a candidate, I promised that we would protect coverage for patients with pre-existing conditions and create new health care insurance options that would lower premiums. I have kept that promise, and we are now seeing health insurance premiums coming down. I also made a solemn promise to our great seniors to protect Medicare. That is why I am fighting so hard against the Democrats' plan that would eviscerate Medicare."

3 - "We just passed [Veteran's] Choice. That was 44 years, they've been trying to pass Choice. So that if you have to wait for nine days, 30 days, 21 days, months, you don't do that anymore. If the line is big, and you're unhappy, you go to a private doctor, they take care of you and we pay the bill."

Real talk: the President's pathological dishonesty is, to absolutely no-one's surprise, spilling over into congressional races. Republican PACs have, in the past few weeks, run ads accusing decorated veterans of being anti-American, former CIA agents of being terrorist sympathisers, and an anti-trust lawyer of representing Libyan terrorists.

And they've launched a whole pack of bullshit ads about healthcare - specifically, ads trashing candidates who don't support Medicare-for-All for supporting Medicare-for-All, as well as repeating the old chestnut that a universally-available public health insurance option is radical socialism and not something that most of the world already does.

There's no law requiring truth in political advertising - and such a law would have to be reconciled with the United States' strong protections for free speech - so PACs like the CLF can get away with batteries of cookie-cutter attack ads replete with scary fonts, artificially darkened video, and carefully mined quotes. But even by US standards, these ads are ridiculous. They're not even lies in the sense that they're falsehoods told to deceive people; it's more like what Harry Frankfurt famously classified as "bullshit", which he uses to refer to lies that are told for purposes other than deception - lies told to distort the concept of shared truth, to display one's loyalty, or to derail the discussion and send everybody present into Crazytown.

Consider this remarkable quote from the Congressional Leadership Fund, a super PAC aligned with Speaker Paul Ryan:

Politico:
Londrigan, the Illinois Democrat, is challenging a super PAC ad claiming she supports a "radical health care plan" costing $32 trillion - a clear reference to Medicare for All. She's called on television stations to pull the ad, pointing out that she's repeatedly opposed the proposal and instead favors a far less expansive public option.

But the Congressional Leadership Fund has doubled down. In a letter sent to the stations and obtained by POLITICO, the super PAC's lawyers argue there's little difference between single-payer and the public option, and the ad's ambiguous language offers plenty of wiggle room.

The ad "simply brings this information to the attention of Illinois voters so they have an accurate understanding of what could happen to their health care," the group's attorneys write.

"Our ad isn't a lie, because we're just letting people know what could happen to their healthcare, hypothetically,, in a world where what we said was true."

That's not even a proper lie! They're literally saying "yeah, we're lying, but if we were telling the truth, our lies would be totally justified!" It's nonsense!

I know everyone knows that Trump tells lies. (7.6 lies per day, in fact.) I know it's seen as normal, because he's an idiot and a reality TV star and an asshole. But it's not normal. It's no more normal than it was on the day he took office and lied about the size of his inauguration crowd, or on the day that he announced his candidacy and lied about building a wall across the border and making Mexico pay for it.

In a lot of ways, Trump is just following ground already set by such pioneers as Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter, both of whom freely used hyperbole to disguise the fact that they what they were saying just wasn't true. Consider Palin's infamous claim that Obamacare would set up death panels, or Coulter's claim in Adios America that "one hundred percent of refugee and asylum claims are either obvious frauds or frauds that haven't been proven yet." But Ann Coulter is not the president of the United States; Donald Trump is. And because Donald Trump is the kind of guy who read Adios America and thought "this is the rock upon which I shall build my church," the entire Republican party finds itself rotting from the head down.

It's true; the Republicans have never been too attached to the truth. They lied about healthcare to sink reform efforts in 1993, they lied about John McCain to get Bush the presidential nomination in 2000, they lied about Iraq to invade it in 2003, they lied about the economy to disguise the coming recession in 2007, and they lied about Obamacare to win the House in 2010. It's not a great track record for the party when you mull on it.

But those were ordinary lies; lies told to trick people into believing a thing that was not true, lies that fell apart upon closer scrutiny. That is not how Trump lies. When Trump lies, he does not expect you to believe it. He is not lying to trick you; he is lying to either excite or enrage you. He is playing the comedian and the troll at the same time - entertaining his supporters, infuriating his critics. Factual accuracy is not just absent; it is made irrelevant.

I'm not sure what I was thinking I could accomplish with this rant. I was just annoyed. Mostly, I was annoyed with how ordinary it seems to say "the President has told a lie." It should not be ordinary. The fact that I cannot think of another way to end this post other than to say "but of course, this post will change nothing" is, to me, intensely depressing.

I just can't bring myself to blame Trump or the GOP for this, at least not the lion share, the real problem is the people who just drink these lie wholesale when they're obviously wrong just because they justify there belief.

None of this would be a problem if politician who were caught telling obvious lie would be shamed and lose popularity, but the opposite happen, they become more popular (well not really, but people who have these view are more likely to vote, same thing in democracy).

I think at this point the solution is to reduce law that prevent such blatant lying, or rather extend this crazy freedom of expression that politician enjoy to everyone. When the add right after the GoP attack lie promise to sell "holy water from the christ himself that will make you immortal" and enough people get scammed, they'll start to realize that you can't trust everything you hear just because it cloak itself in w/e crazy belief they have.

I'm ready to fucking give up on this country. I wonder if this is what Rome felt like during the declining days of the Republic.

Not gonna say anymore for the sake of my mental health. Living in a house of Trump supporters already makes me feel like I'm slowly going insane. No need to add to it. Need to focus on keeping my head above the water.

God I've hated life for the past two years. Fucking. Hated it. I seriously don't think I could survive a second term. My body would physically give out.

Now you're the filthy liar bastard. Filthy filthy liar. Claiming that Trump read a book. Not even a page, you claimed he read a whole book.

Jokes aside this shit and the announcement about global temperatures and god knows how many other things has pretty much turned me from a relatively optimistic "love all the people" kind a guy to someone who is sincerely glad humanity is doing everything to wipe itself out. It's impossible to care anymore.

Meiam:
I just can't bring myself to blame Trump or the GOP for this, at least not the lion share, the real problem is the people who just drink these lie wholesale when they're obviously wrong just because they justify there belief.

None of this would be a problem if politician who were caught telling obvious lie would be shamed and lose popularity, but the opposite happen, they become more popular (well not really, but people who have these view are more likely to vote, same thing in democracy).

I think at this point the solution is to reduce law that prevent such blatant lying, or rather extend this crazy freedom of expression that politician enjoy to everyone. When the add right after the GoP attack lie promise to sell "holy water from the christ himself that will make you immortal" and enough people get scammed, they'll start to realize that you can't trust everything you hear just because it cloak itself in w/e crazy belief they have.

It got more to do with Freedom of Speech being mixed up with freedom from consequences. If you sell something that kills people that somehow means that you still allowed to sell the product due to Freedom of Speech.

Also, you don't win argument by telling the truth. Or being nice.

Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

Kwak:
Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

Because the nice, liberal thing to do is to present both sides as equal, making no alleged judgment, lest you unleash the dreaded bias.

Aka, most media is at least "centrist", if not actively owned by Murdoch types.

Kwak:
Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

Yeah, they've been doing that since his campaign. Back then, it was at least in part because Trump's disastrous antics was more interesting than, say, Clinton talking about policy and getting the US to work properly.

Nowdays, probably a bit of that insufferable "both sides" rubbish, not wanting to alienate Trump cultist readers, and not wanting alienate Trump.

The media consistently being wishy washy about how obviously evil Trump is probably played a big part in him winning the election. It's a bit late to point this out now, but it's better than nothing.

EDIT:

erttheking:
I?m ready to fucking give up on this country. I wonder if this is what Rome felt like during the declining days of the Republic.

Not gonna say anymore for the sake of my mental health. Living in a house of Trump supporters already makes me feel like I?m slowly going insane. No need to add to it. Need to focus on keeping my head above the water.

God I?ve hated life for the past two years. Fucking. Hated it. I seriously don?t think I could survive a second term. My body would physically give out.

Just saw this on shakesville:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-traumatizing-effect-of-the-trump-era-on-women-its-like-a-form-of-torture?ref=home

"Both sides", is not impartiality. It is drawing a false moral equivalence in order to either give the appearance of impartiality, or to dismiss the moral differences between two groups.

Unbiased, true reporting of two different groups or ideologies is supposed to show differences. Yes, it might hurt your "semblance" of impartiality to report that one group keeps doing bad things, but in the US, one party keeps doing really bad things, much worse than the other.

Thaluikhain:
"Both sides", is not impartiality. It is drawing a false moral equivalence in order to either give the appearance of impartiality, or to dismiss the moral differences between two groups.

Unbiased, true reporting of two different groups or ideologies is supposed to show differences. Yes, it might hurt your "semblance" of impartiality to report that one group keeps doing bad things, but in the US, one party keeps doing really bad things, much worse than the other.

No, reporting the damage being done on either side is just reporting on the truth. The "moral equivalence" you are projecting on to us, is just excusing or ignoring the faults on your own side mixed with an unwillingness to do proper research before speaking. Preferring to stay comfortably within ones own echo chamber that validates their own viewpoint.

Kyrian007:
No, reporting the damage being done on either side is just reporting on the truth.

That is supposed to be how it works, yes.

Kwak:
Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

Because being honest and blunt makes people think you're a crazy unhinged extremist.

Source: Am me.

Kyrian007:

Thaluikhain:

Kwak:
Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

Yeah, they've been doing that since his campaign. Back then, it was at least in part because Trump's disastrous antics was more interesting than, say, Clinton talking about policy and getting the US to work properly.

Nowdays, probably a bit of that insufferable "both sides" rubbish, not wanting to alienate Trump cultist readers, and not wanting alienate Trump.

The media consistently being wishy washy about how obviously evil Trump is probably played a big part in him winning the election. It's a bit late to point this out now, but it's better than nothing.

I love how its all our fault. Whichever side is slinging around stupid fucking accusations. Trump and his asshole cronies dubbing the media the "enemy of the people." And then you come in with "impartiality is rubbish." Congratulations, you made a statement at an intellectual level with Trump's. Gotta give that a golf clap. A good journalist isn't wishy washy, they are limited by reporting on FACTS. Things that can be verified. You don't have any clue how hard it is in this atmosphere to try and maintain even a semblance of impartiality. The fact that there are good reporters out there managing it, even ones working for awful news corporations...

No, screw it. I don't know why we are even bothering. Your post just goes to show that no one is listening. No one cares. Everyone just wants to hear within their own echo chambers of social media and "the truth" is just something that "the other side" is distorting. All the fucking right wing commentators saying "the media isn't reporting ____." Its all bullshit, I'm plugged in and I have heard us reporting on everything they complain about. And its the same on the left. Why aren't they reporting on what an asshole Trump is... HAVE YOU BEEN LISTENING TO ANYTHING BEING SAID? Or, just "do you understand words?" We aren't supposed to draw conclusions for the viewer, reader, listener. There is SOME responsibility that has to be borne by the reader to make up their own fucking minds about what is being presented to them. Or let me be as blunt as possible.

When you ask for news that draws conclusions FOR YOU, that does your THINKING for you to save time, to tell you news THE WAY YOU WANT TO HEAR IT rather than just reporting... THAT'S HOW YOU GET FOX NEWS.

And that's why it gets ratings. Money. People just like you. Nobody wants to hear the unbiased truth anymore, it just doesn't fit into the social media "I am the center of my facebook and twitter universe" attitude anymore. Anyone looking for one way in which left-wingers are just as bad as the jackasses on the right. Its this way, right here. Its just too much to ask any of y'all to think for yourselves. It requires too much effort.

You're better than this.

The facts are that Trump and Republicans lie, blatantly and constantly. It is a simple thing to counter their lies with their own words and go 'This conflicts with that'. The 'mainstream media' not doing that and The Daily Show doing that is why The Daily Show, despite supposing to be a satirical show, is more journalism is sad.

Occasionally news organizations like CNN remember you can do that, but not enough.

Just put a video of 80's Trump criticizing David Duke next to 2016 Trump saying 'I don't know who David Duke is'. Just put every video of Trump and Giuliani praising people like Cohen as good honest men next to videos of them going 'They were a liar and we always knew it'.

Put Trump shitting on Ted Cruz next to Trump endorsing Ted Cruz.

The fair and unbiased Truth is Republicans are liars who put children in cages, support pedophilia and rape and have no scruples what so ever.

It's only natural that these sociapaths would look to Trump's success with his voter base and realise they can pretty much get away with any bullshit now with these people believing anything and everything from the administration. They have no reason to abide by any standards when their audience requires none. We even have lovely Georgian Brian Kemp somehow allowed to not only manage the voting system being used as he runs for governor, but also to legally suppress votes with an overwhelming racial disparity. They won't stop pushing how much they can get away with when their own cult is completely blind or uncaring to everything they're doing. This will only get worse until they are out of power and their corruption dealt with accordingly.

Kwak:
Is there some law stopping the press from saying "that's a lie, why did you lie you fucking liar?"?
Why are the media so fucking *polite* about this sabotage of democracy?

You must be the most quoted person in this thread. But I have my own answer as well.

Yes, there's a law. It was created by Trump. It is named "Trump Presidency vs 'Fake News'"

It's a special law that's enforced by the citizens for a change. It found its legal standing in ignorance and intolerance. It finds that anything that shows a side other than Trump as Orange Reincarnated Jesus, it's demonstratively false and obviously slander thought up by demonic forces.

No trials, no evidence needed. If a handful of reporters have been found guilty, that means the Tens of Thousands of other Reporters are false just by association. Of course, that doesn't include the Sinclair Group (The Ultra Conservative, Pro Trump Media group that now hits 40 percent of households with it's partisan leanings)]

(Yay for Free and unbiased Media!)

'Cause they some of the good'uns.

I think this debate sums things up pretty nicely. As far as I can tell Republicans are just.... ugh, just watch.


I have to assume republicans are eternal optimists since they seem to just accept things their leaders say at face value.
Not sure if youtube links are working or not, here is a hard link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvsLIxBIJGw

Saelune:
You're better than this.

The facts are that Trump and Republicans lie, blatantly and constantly. It is a simple thing to counter their lies with their own words and go 'This conflicts with that'. The 'mainstream media' not doing that and The Daily Show doing that is why The Daily Show, despite supposing to be a satirical show, is more journalism is sad.

Occasionally news organizations like CNN remember you can do that, but not enough.

Just put a video of 80's Trump criticizing David Duke next to 2016 Trump saying 'I don't know who David Duke is'. Just put every video of Trump and Giuliani praising people like Cohen as good honest men next to videos of them going 'They were a liar and we always knew it'.

Put Trump shitting on Ted Cruz next to Trump endorsing Ted Cruz.

The fair and unbiased Truth is Republicans are liars who put children in cages, support pedophilia and rape and have no scruples what so ever.

I'm sorry Saelune. I'm right with you on so much, but I'm not an educator. I'm a journalist (well, actually I'm a technician, engineer, security guard, and journalist for a company who can only afford to hire 1 person to do about 4 people's worth of jobs) and I just can't go down that road. It doesn't have any logical end. I can't just assume every story on Trump is the very first one someone has come across and include every single contradictory fact and statement he's ever made. I can and do report on what he is saying and what his detractors and opponents are bringing up. Five times just this morning I ran juxtaposing stories of him complaining about democrats being unhinged and too extremist and partisan followed by cuts of him literally calling democrats "The party of criminals."

You get it, you establish that pretty much every day here. But people these days have an attention span no longer than the first screen's worth of their twitter feed. I put the information out there. Good or bad no matter who it makes look good or bad. But what my listeners do with that... I can't make them think. I can't make them admit they remember something they'd rather deny knowing their candidate did or said. I did run the story about Trump refusing initially to reject David Duke's endorsement, with the addition of the audio from the 80's clip. I remember because I got a complaint call from a listener. He accused me of writing the story in such a way to make Trump look like a racist. Its hard to even answer stupidity like that. I had to just point out I didn't draw any conclusions in my story, I just reported what Trump had actually said and I couldn't help it if the man's actions make him seem racist.

I'm at the lowest, least glamorous end of the journalistic scale. I spend overnights covering police blotter and previewing school board and city council meetings. But I select what national news stories I lend voice to on my air time... and I'm sorry but I'll always pass on to my listeners stories like the ones I write. Ones that present the facts, as things happened. I get a lot of personal satisfaction reporting on whatever Trump's latest stupidity is, and there is no shortage of it to chose from. The problem is, his supporters don't care how stupid or awful it is and often times support him because of exactly how awful it is. David Duke and the KKK's support springs to mind. But amongst everything else I do, I'm a journalist. I have to throw it out there and just hope that people can see it for what it is. See it and understand it. I already get complaints from both sides on anything political I report on... and frankly I don't really have any hope left that anyone out there can see past their own prejudice anymore. No matter which side of the argument is the one that's clouding their judgement.

People that are dumb enough to vote for this criminal sociopath and the rest of the GOP deserve everything they get, or rather everything that the GOP takes from them.

Adam Jensen:
People that are dumb enough to vote for this criminal sociopath and the rest of the GOP deserve everything they get, or rather everything that the GOP takes from them.

While you're right, they aren't the only ones being affected by it. We all have to suffer for them. That's the Galling part.

You know what's funny, is that before all this hoopla Trump primarily identified as a lefty, even if he "said" he was more of a conservative. Or is that another lie of his? What's this guy really thinking??


I'm half wondering if in another dimension Trump ran and won as a Democrat and everything turned out rosy. Either that or this is all a vast conspiracy the likes of which won't be fully felt for generations.

Not only did I automatically assume those quotes were absolutely things Trump had said, my brain was reading them in his voice from the get go. Can't even get a break from him inside my own skull anymore he's such a blight on the world

Thaluikhain:

erttheking:
I?m ready to fucking give up on this country. I wonder if this is what Rome felt like during the declining days of the Republic.

Not gonna say anymore for the sake of my mental health. Living in a house of Trump supporters already makes me feel like I?m slowly going insane. No need to add to it. Need to focus on keeping my head above the water.

God I?ve hated life for the past two years. Fucking. Hated it. I seriously don?t think I could survive a second term. My body would physically give out.

Just saw this on shakesville:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-traumatizing-effect-of-the-trump-era-on-women-its-like-a-form-of-torture?ref=home

I hate life. Not my life, my personal life is good. But the world that surrounds it? Fucking hate it. I'm surrounded by a bunch of Neros, fiddling while Rome burns.

hanselthecaretaker:
You know what?s funny, is that before all this hoopla Trump primarily identified as a lefty, even if he ?said? he was more of a conservative. Or is that another lie of his? What?s this guy really thinking??


I?m half wondering if in another dimension Trump ran and won as a Democrat and everything turned out rosy. Either that or this is all a vast conspiracy the likes of which won?t be fully felt for generations.

I seem to remember him either running in the primary or trying to get on the democratic ticket in 2004/2008. Or at least considering it.

Meiam:
I just can't bring myself to blame Trump or the GOP for this, at least not the lion share, the real problem is the people who just drink these lie wholesale when they're obviously wrong just because they justify there belief.

Is that the actual problem I wonder? People who care about his lies enough to believe them? Or is it the people who no longer even care about what kind of lies he makes? Something is true: Trump sees governing as a competition where playing dirty is playing smart. How dirty will he get? Be it Republican or Democrat, whoever governs after Trump is done will need all the mops in the world to clean up enough of his feces to make America functional again.

Kyrian007:

Saelune:
You're better than this.

The facts are that Trump and Republicans lie, blatantly and constantly. It is a simple thing to counter their lies with their own words and go 'This conflicts with that'. The 'mainstream media' not doing that and The Daily Show doing that is why The Daily Show, despite supposing to be a satirical show, is more journalism is sad.

Occasionally news organizations like CNN remember you can do that, but not enough.

Just put a video of 80's Trump criticizing David Duke next to 2016 Trump saying 'I don't know who David Duke is'. Just put every video of Trump and Giuliani praising people like Cohen as good honest men next to videos of them going 'They were a liar and we always knew it'.

Put Trump shitting on Ted Cruz next to Trump endorsing Ted Cruz.

The fair and unbiased Truth is Republicans are liars who put children in cages, support pedophilia and rape and have no scruples what so ever.

I'm sorry Saelune. I'm right with you on so much, but I'm not an educator. I'm a journalist (well, actually I'm a technician, engineer, security guard, and journalist for a company who can only afford to hire 1 person to do about 4 people's worth of jobs) and I just can't go down that road. It doesn't have any logical end. I can't just assume every story on Trump is the very first one someone has come across and include every single contradictory fact and statement he's ever made. I can and do report on what he is saying and what his detractors and opponents are bringing up. Five times just this morning I ran juxtaposing stories of him complaining about democrats being unhinged and too extremist and partisan followed by cuts of him literally calling democrats "The party of criminals."

You get it, you establish that pretty much every day here. But people these days have an attention span no longer than the first screen's worth of their twitter feed. I put the information out there. Good or bad no matter who it makes look good or bad. But what my listeners do with that... I can't make them think. I can't make them admit they remember something they'd rather deny knowing their candidate did or said. I did run the story about Trump refusing initially to reject David Duke's endorsement, with the addition of the audio from the 80's clip. I remember because I got a complaint call from a listener. He accused me of writing the story in such a way to make Trump look like a racist. Its hard to even answer stupidity like that. I had to just point out I didn't draw any conclusions in my story, I just reported what Trump had actually said and I couldn't help it if the man's actions make him seem racist.

I'm at the lowest, least glamorous end of the journalistic scale. I spend overnights covering police blotter and previewing school board and city council meetings. But I select what national news stories I lend voice to on my air time... and I'm sorry but I'll always pass on to my listeners stories like the ones I write. Ones that present the facts, as things happened. I get a lot of personal satisfaction reporting on whatever Trump's latest stupidity is, and there is no shortage of it to chose from. The problem is, his supporters don't care how stupid or awful it is and often times support him because of exactly how awful it is. David Duke and the KKK's support springs to mind. But amongst everything else I do, I'm a journalist. I have to throw it out there and just hope that people can see it for what it is. See it and understand it. I already get complaints from both sides on anything political I report on... and frankly I don't really have any hope left that anyone out there can see past their own prejudice anymore. No matter which side of the argument is the one that's clouding their judgement.

Don't apologize or feel bad for being right or honest.

And remember, 'mainstream media' is used as a vauge 'other', but people like to nitpick. People like to pretend Fox News is not mainstream media, people like to pretend that they are skeptical of 'fake news' by...believing fake news. People are stupid, people are hypocritical. I am not saying you cant or shouldn't be mad, I definitely am not, but just keep aware of who the shitty people are. It is not Thaluikhain.

It is common in history for the smart and righteous to be vilified during their own time. People praise MLK now, but he was considered an extremist, a terrorist, and under FBI watch and even outright sabotage. We praise him now, but he did not live to see it, because he was murdered, cause he wanted better for the world. Something I think about a lot.

I really don't know what it is, but despite feeling hopeless myself, when others are down I feel the need to say 'have hope'. I don't know if that just makes me a hypocrite or not, but still. There are far fewer than there should be, of decent folk out there, but as few as people are who see reason and fairness, they do exist.

Another thing I think about a lot, is that no matter who or what a person is, there are probably millions of people who hate you, just because you are you. I know that sounds like a bummer, but, as an LGBT person, it reminds me that I should not care what everyone in the world thinks, cause they will automatically hate me unfairly. And it is not even just being LGBT, but being say, from the US. It is not an excuse to be shitty though, sometimes people will hate you for justified reasons, but Trump and his supporters, if they hate you, you are doing something right.

Sorry if I got weirdly rambly.

@Kyrian007

CaitSeith:

Meiam:
I just can't bring myself to blame Trump or the GOP for this, at least not the lion share, the real problem is the people who just drink these lie wholesale when they're obviously wrong just because they justify there belief.

Is that the actual problem I wonder? People who care about his lies enough to believe them? Or is it the people who no longer even care about what kind of lies he makes? Something is true: Trump sees governing as a competition where playing dirty is playing smart. How dirty will he get? Be it Republican or Democrat, whoever governs after Trump is done will need all the mops in the world to clean up enough of his feces to make America functional again.

They don't believe his lie so much as it means they don't have to face the fact that they're obviously wrong. See it this way, if you're playing a sport where there's an referee, if the referee start saying obviously wrong things that advantages a player, odds are pretty good that this player will like the referee more and might start to defend him if the other player ask for a new referee to be brought in. These people don't think Trump is special for thinking playing dirty is smart, they think everyone plays dirty but now there's a guy who's playing dirty for them and that also means they don't have to hide the fact that they themselves play dirty anymore. If you'd point out that not everyone plays dirty, this is bad for them because it show there behavior for what it is, a scummy things that most people don't do.

In there mind, Obama was just as bad as Trump if not worse. To them Trump isn't special in lying, he's just telling lies that they agree with. So pointing out that Trump is a liar is pointless, it's why they hit back with "what about" and "But her email!". They see it as people holding Trump to a higher standard than they did Obama. It's important to remember that a non insignificant number of people literally believe we all decent from 2 human being, when they're told that this makes no sense and is obviously wrong they just see that as a big fat lie.

And it's not a given that whoever come after Trump will clean up the messes. The messes is very advantageous for the republican, you can look at Georgia for how much they're willing to bend the rule to there advantages. Why would they clean up the messes who it mean they'll lose power?

CaitSeith:
@Kyrian007

The video is right, Trump makes it easy... just keep your tape recorder on long enough. He isn't bright enough to be subtle and he doesn't care enough to even try. But even as far as "better" (at the game) politicians go its not as hard as people might think. Everybody has detractors, everybody has political enemies. When one side uses a euphemism, just quote their opponent calling things out for what it is. As the journalist all I've done there present both arguments to be made. Its fair, impartial, and you hope people are smart enough to see any dog whistles or see through any euphemism. And that's why it seems like I've lost some hope... people don't seem like they can pick up on this stuff any more. These days as long as the politician has the right little letter next to his name, everything gets taken at face value and the other guy is always wrong.

Saelune:
Don't apologize or feel bad for being right or honest.

And remember, 'mainstream media' is used as a vauge 'other', but people like to nitpick. People like to pretend Fox News is not mainstream media, people like to pretend that they are skeptical of 'fake news' by...believing fake news. People are stupid, people are hypocritical. I am not saying you cant or shouldn't be mad, I definitely am not, but just keep aware of who the shitty people are. It is not Thaluikhain.

It is common in history for the smart and righteous to be vilified during their own time. People praise MLK now, but he was considered an extremist, a terrorist, and under FBI watch and even outright sabotage. We praise him now, but he did not live to see it, because he was murdered, cause he wanted better for the world. Something I think about a lot.

I really don't know what it is, but despite feeling hopeless myself, when others are down I feel the need to say 'have hope'. I don't know if that just makes me a hypocrite or not, but still. There are far fewer than there should be, of decent folk out there, but as few as people are who see reason and fairness, they do exist.

Another thing I think about a lot, is that no matter who or what a person is, there are probably millions of people who hate you, just because you are you. I know that sounds like a bummer, but, as an LGBT person, it reminds me that I should not care what everyone in the world thinks, cause they will automatically hate me unfairly. And it is not even just being LGBT, but being say, from the US. It is not an excuse to be shitty though, sometimes people will hate you for justified reasons, but Trump and his supporters, if they hate you, you are doing something right.

Sorry if I got weirdly rambly.

Thank you Saelune. I'll try and remember that. Yeah, I try and wear Trump's "enemy of the people" it just gets to me a little when people on the left start blaming "the media" even when its just slightly. But you're right, the occasional time that happens shouldn't be my biggest concern, or any concern really. Not until it becomes as intense a hatred as the right has for us.

All politicians lie. What's so different about it this time? The second any of those bottom feeding cesspits open their mouths is when we should close our ears.

RaikuFA:
All politicians lie. What?s so different about it this time? The second any of those bottom feeding cesspits open their mouths is when we should close our ears.

What's different is that the reason they're telling the lies has changed, and it has changed because of the specific way in which Trump has used lies over the course of his brief career in politics.

All politicians have lied at some point. It's a career that rewards dishonesty. But most people tell lies for the purpose of deception; that is, they state something that is not true, intending others to believe that it is true, and therefore put them in a state of mind where they take something to be false as if it were an actual fact. This is only possible because the actual facts are concealed or classified or forgotten or vague, and the liar's word is being used as a surrogate fact.

Consider a man who cheats on his wife, and lies to her that he was just working late. What the liar is trying to achieve there is to convince his wife of a false fact (that he was working late) and to disguise the actual fact that he was at a hotel sleeping with a hooker or something. He is only able to do this because he has concealed the factual details of his physical location at the time in question. Because his physical location at that time is still unknown, he replaces it with his word, and relies on his wife's trust in him to convince her to use his word as a surrogate for the actual facts.

The important thing about the lie-as-deception is that if you can get the actual facts, the lie collapses. The liar relies on the facts being unknown or hidden; as soon as the facts are exposed, his lie becomes obvious and his deception fails. For example, if the liar's wife were to drop by the liar's office and ask what time he clocked out on the night in question, she would realise that he had not been working late. The deception fails in the face of contradictory facts.

All of that is the ordinary, common-sense understanding of how lies work. But that is not what is happening here. I have one particular example that I want to use, because I personally find it astounding.

Consider Josh Hawley. Hawley is the Attorney-General for the state of Missouri, whose duties include filing lawsuits on behalf of the state of Missouri. (This will be important momentarily.) Hawley is currently running as a Republican for the US Senate in Missouri, against the incumbent Claire McCaskill, a Democrat. In a recent campaign spot posted on Twitter, Hawley spoke about his family - including his son, who has a chronic disease that would be classified as a pre-existing condition by health insurers. Hawley cited his son's health as the main reason why he supports regulations that prevent insurers from charging people higher premiums if they have a pre-existing condition.

Problem: Josh Hawley is currently serving as the AG of Missouri. Josh Hawley controls what lawsuits Missouri files. And Missouri, along with eighteen other states, has joined with Texas to file a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act. Their lawsuit argues that because the ACA was deemed constitutional on the basis that the individual mandate it included was considered a tax, and because the individual mandate is now repealed, the ACA is no longer constitutional and should be abolished in its entirety. That includes the ACA's ironclad protections for pre-existing conditions - the first of their kind in the US, and hands-down the most popular part of the legislation. (It's also worth mentioning that the Republicans are the ones who repealed the individual mandate - in their 2017 tax cut - so they're sort of arguing that because they repealed the part of the act that made it constitutional, the whole act has to now be repealed for being unconstitutional, which is a whole separate bag of chicanery.)

Now, I know that's a little policy-heavy, so I'll boil it down. Basically, Josh Hawley is claiming he supports protections for pre-existing conditions whilst overseeing a lawsuit that would remove all existing protections for pre-existing conditions in their entirety. This fact is not concealed; it is a matter of public record. The lie was noticed by healthcare policy wonks almost immediately. It is really easy to tell that Josh Hawley is lying, because he is doing the opposite of what he says he's doing right as he says he's doing it. It would be like the man cheating on his wife insisting that he was just working late while screwing his mistress right in front of her.

So what the hey-ho is going on? That's where Harry Frankfurt's prescient theory of bullshit comes in. Basically, as I said in the OP, Frankfurt draws a distinction between lies - which are false facts told for the purposes of deception - and what he calls "bullshit," which are false facts told for some other reason.

That distinction may seem pointless, but it's super important because it explains why Trump is so different from all the other lying liars in the past. Trump's lies - and the lies of imitators like Josh Hawley - are not intended to deceive you. They are, to be blunt, really shitty lies - they're easily disproven, often ridiculous, and usually told off-the-cuff with none of the forethought that goes into preparing a false narrative. They're not meant to work. You can hear Trump say something, and immediately recognise that it's false in the same sense that you can watch an airplane explode during take-off and immediately recognise that it is not airborne.

What Trump is trying to do with this rapid-fire stream of bullshit is not to convince people of something that isn't true. What he's actually trying to do is more like gaslighting; he's trying to make the truth vague. He wants to make the facts uncertain, both unknown and unknowable. He wants to throw enough chaff between you and the truth that you can't see the truth anymore and begin to question whether or not it even exists. What's important is not that you believe him; it's that you stop believing everything else. By lying constantly, Trump causes his supporters to cease respecting the truth - after all, their reaction if queried on Trump's dishonesty is nearly always "but every politician lies!" They don't care that he lies, because they see it as something normal that everybody does. Responding to Trump's lies by saying that everybody lies asserts that everyone else is equally as bad as Trump. Which makes Trump equally as good as everyone else. Which makes Trump's behaviour normal. Which makes it not bad. It's just normal.

But politicians aren't supposed to lie. We know that they do, but it's still meant to be a bad thing, and they're meant to be ashamed when they get called out on it. Let's go back to the example of the lying adulterer. In a normal situation, the adulterer and his wife both know that adultery is wrong; the adulterer therefore lies to hide his adulterer, and if his wife discovers the truth, she is rightly horrified and upset, and the adulterer should be aware that he's been caught in the act.

But the Trump/Hawley-style liar - the one who claims to support protections for pre-existing conditions while actively working to repeal all existing protections for pre-existing conditions - will not only cheat on his wife, but will insist that he's not cheating on his wife even while his dick is actively going in and out of his mistress while his wife watches. His lie is weak and easily disproven, but he sticks to it, and probably starts telling other lies too just to distract from the first one.

The correct response, if you found your husband fucking his mistress on the couch in the living room and he told you that you were mistaken - don't believe what you see or hear, I'm just working late - would be to get angry, call him a fucking liar, and kick the two of them out of the house before presumably consoling yourself with ice cream. This is the response that most people have when confronted with a Trump lie; they get angry, because the audacity of the lie itself is intrinsically offensive. (Then they eat ice cream.)

Trump supporters - perhaps not the ones during the election, but certainly the ones who are still sticking by him two years later - do not have that response. Their response is not to insist that Trump is telling the truth - which is impossible - but to deny that telling a lie is even all that big a deal to begin with. They simply deny what everyone else takes for granted; the idea that lying is bad and unusual and telling the truth is good and expected. They are like the wife from the 1950s, who has been taught by their family and their friends that sleeping with prostitutes is something that husbands just do, and you just have to pretend that they don't do it because who are you to complain about it? What are you gonna do? Men cheat on their wives, politicians lie, it's the way of the world. So they come home and find their husband fucking his mistress on the couch, and they just sort of shrug and go into the kitchen, because that's life.

I'd say that they were in denial, but it's not really denial. It's apathy. They just don't care about the lies. Who cares that Josh Hawley is lying about his stance on pre-existing conditions? All politicians lie, Claire McCaskill also told a lie once, and you can't say for certain that Hawley doesn't have some secret, highly implausible plan to overturn the ACA and then replace it with a hypothetically superior piece of legislation. (He does not.) The bullshit that Trump produces - and which more and more politicians are emulating as time goes on - is actively worse than regular lies. Firstly, it's impervious to the truth, which makes fact-checking seem futile and even kind of silly. Secondly, it directly attacks the idea that anyone is telling the truth at any time. The default response to a news article listing real and concrete criticisms of that thing you like becomes a shrug. "Eh, they're lying. All media lies." It's like Trump is creating tens of millions of little solipsists, breezing through the world with the apathetic certainty that everything around them is bullshit, nothing is true, and there's no point in expecting honesty because the only thing they can trust are the thoughts within their own mind.

That's why it's different. Sorry for asking you to read such a lengthy post (and thank you for reading this far.)

ObsidianJones:

Adam Jensen:
People that are dumb enough to vote for this criminal sociopath and the rest of the GOP deserve everything they get, or rather everything that the GOP takes from them.

While you're right, they aren't the only ones being affected by it. We all have to suffer for them. That's the Galling part.

Not everyone suffers. Certain people love what the GOP does without ignorance or irony. What could honestly be better for the ruling class than a party that pushes monstrous social policy (popularized by certain individuals who are funded by billionaires) alongside oligarchic consolidation of power when the other option also will quietly support oligarchic consolidation of power? The gratuitousness of the violence is nearly the entire point of it; voting against the ruling class means taking no side in a very clear moral question. This is, of course, extremely divisive. And it also may be an indication that the path to liberation cannot lie through electoral politics unless or until one of the duopoly is completely reformed or replaced.

The Republicans are never going to stop having well-funded white grievance propaganda as long as there are billionaires to shell out for it and the Democrats may never stop walking the extortionate line between opposition and assistance. Working to organize general strikes may be more fruitful than putting any degree of faith in electoral politics.

RaikuFA:
All politicians lie. What?s so different about it this time? The second any of those bottom feeding cesspits open their mouths is when we should close our ears.

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056123-So-Brett-Kavanaughs-been-accused-of-sexual-assault?page=12#24272103

Do I need to point out the difference between a candidate and an elected official? Because you seem to not give them the proper standards (even though you're paying for the salary of the latter).

CaitSeith:

RaikuFA:
All politicians lie. What?s so different about it this time? The second any of those bottom feeding cesspits open their mouths is when we should close our ears.

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056123-So-Brett-Kavanaughs-been-accused-of-sexual-assault?page=12#24272103

Do I need to point out the difference between a candidate and an elected official? Because you seem to not give them the proper standards (even though you're paying for the salary of the latter).

Neither one deserves my respect. I give more respect to the mice that my cats kill than any candidate/elected official/whatever they are.

RaikuFA:

CaitSeith:

RaikuFA:
All politicians lie. What?s so different about it this time? The second any of those bottom feeding cesspits open their mouths is when we should close our ears.

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.1056123-So-Brett-Kavanaughs-been-accused-of-sexual-assault?page=12#24272103

Do I need to point out the difference between a candidate and an elected official? Because you seem to not give them the proper standards (even though you're paying for the salary of the latter).

Neither one deserves my respect. I give more respect to the mice that my cats kill than any candidate/elected official/whatever they are.

Who's talking about respect? We are talking about indiference. If you give indiference to a candidate, they aren't doing a good job. If you give indference to an elected official, they take it as they are making a good job (after all, you're paying them without complains).

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