Existing While Black: A Growing Concern

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Samtemdo8:

Basically I feel that Black creators are incapable of taking "Race" out of their works.

And I am actually encouraging you to prove me wrong on this mind you.

Antoine Fuqua.

Directed King Arthur. A movie I love despite its endless historical inaccuracies. On the other hand it's a film about King Arthur so, well, go figure.

The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

You mean the big issues of the massive income, educational and wealth gaps that exists between black people and white people in the US? The same massive gaps that leads to a disproportionate number of black people living in abject poverty in the richest country on Earth? A poverty that leads to higher rates of Black people resorting to crime to eek out any kind of living in a country that often fails to provide any kind of meaningful welfare or social safety net? Crimes that are often related to the drug trade and the organized crime that enables it, which causes "Black on Black" violent crime to rocket, because it should more accurately be labelled violent conflicts between criminal organizations?

Because yeah, I absolutely agree that addressing the highly dysfunctional social systems that forces large swathes of the population (irregardless of ethnicity) to live in such squalid conditions that they can't even attend school as children and thus are unemployable as adults should be one of the highest priorities of the US government and all State legislatures.

I mean, this is one of those cases when the racism perpetuates itself. "Black people kill black people, you should sort that out" cries The Lunatic and his peers, thus turning a blind eye to the institutional racism that simultaneously allows them to ignore the reasons why black people kill black people more then other ethnicity kill each other.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

This would be an interesting point if it had anything to do with the subject. It doesn't.

But it doesn't have anything to do with the subject. It's biased response #327 when it comes to ignoring/justifying treatment

You see, that's the problem with the Dog Whistle line of defense. It's loud, it's shocking, and it's enticing to only those who are tuned to hearing it. For anyone else who's not tuned to that frequency, we can pay attention to other things. Like, the majority of murders for whites are committed by other whites. Along with other Maladies that harm them normally comes strictly from other whites. Yet we don't talk about it.

In fact, to use your own example: While Whites' Houses are burning, some family members are ODing, others are committing suicide, and some are actually murdering their neighbors... they are looking down the block and thinking Black people are complaining about their lawns while their house is on fire. But in actuality, the authorities came through and told them to calm down and look at the floor while they proceeded to 'misconstrue' the situation as it being the black person's fault.

Whites are not flawless. In fact, it seems every couple of years there's a new drug epidemic that becomes a national emergency for them. They are still overwhelmingly killing themselves as well. Or as they put it: "Homicide is largely intra-racial. Of crimes involving a single offender and victim: 81% of white victims were killed by a white perpetrator; 89% of all black victims were killed by a black perpetrator."

So, hey, Biased Whites? Why don't you get your affairs in order before looking at our lawn? No? You still feel the right to ignore that your race is doing the exact same thing you're focusing on the black race for doing? Seems hypocritical. But as the majority, I'm sure you have good reason that doesn't stem from shifting an uncomfortable focus on your own internal problems because it's hard to feel superior over others if you do.

Overall, Lunatic, Your distraction didn't work. I'm sorry. It just brought up again another injustice that even when Blacks can not breathe in this country and it's clear to see for all, other people will just try to justify it... once again giving blacks the feeling of being marginalized constantly. And furthermore, the justification will be another something that whites do freely, and no one is concerned.

Whites walk in a starbucks and asks to use the bathroom, and are allowed. Black people do it and they get the cops called on them. White people walk around with children of other races, and people don't blink an eye. Black people do it and they get the cops called on them. Whites kill the overall majority of whites, and no one bats an eye. Blacks do it, and it's a justification of handwaving all the injustices done to them.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

100% of Black people killed by Cops should be thoroughly investigated. Your claim is irrelevant. Even one cop murdering out of racism is too many.

The vast majority of deaths involving white people still comes from other white people. And men. Men kill way more than women.

If we are going to use this 'logic', then straight white cis men are the most dangerous sort of people.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

Because lord knows, nobody can address more than one issue at a time.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

Well then. It sounds like cops should stop killing innocent civilians and go after criminals instead.

The Lunatic:
The vast majority of violent deaths involving black people still comes from other black people.

It's a bit like complaining about an unkept lawn whilst the house is on fire.

Not to say that there isn't a time to mow said lawn, but, I think you should address the big issues first.

Most murders are committed by people that the victim knew.

Black people tend to live, work, and socialize with other black people. White people tend to live, work, and socialize with other white people.

Black people end up killing black people they know, white people end up killing white people they know.

This is somewhat tangential to the conversation at hand but I always wondered about the narrative regarding over-policing. Is the thought that black people being targeted by police disproportionally are actually innocent of the crimes they get caught doing? Or is it that we should let more black criminals go free due to proportionality? Basically, to me, it sounds like you're supporting a much larger injustice in order to mitigate a smaller one. No, I don't think black people should be over-policed and a lot of the laws in place are there to target them but at the same time black people are aware of these laws so they can still behave legally. I fully believe anyone of any race can behave legally and so I will blame a black criminal just as much as I would a white one, while acknowledging that their experience is not the same. Despite that, their error in behaving illegally is still superior.

So, with that out of the way, I think it's smarter to move towards erasing those laws that unfairly target specific groups of people instead of addressing how we police the laws we do have, because I genuinely think it is a good thing to catch as many criminals as possible, even if they're all one race, because you still end up with a safer society that way overall, and that benefits all races equally. For every criminal there's a crime and for most crimes there's a victim and like stated above most black people's crime victims will be other black people so you could look at the disproportionate arrests as being done in order to uphold justice for the black victims. I don't see why such an interpretation is never presented.

Dreiko:
This is somewhat tangential to the conversation at hand but I always wondered about the narrative regarding over-policing. Is the thought that black people being targeted by police disproportionally are actually innocent of the crimes they get caught doing? Or is it that we should let more black criminals go free due to proportionality? Basically, to me, it sounds like you're supporting a much larger injustice in order to mitigate a smaller one. No, I don't think black people should be over-policed and a lot of the laws in place are there to target them but at the same time black people are aware of these laws so they can still behave legally. I fully believe anyone of any race can behave legally and so I will blame a black criminal just as much as I would a white one, while acknowledging that their experience is not the same. Despite that, their error in behaving illegally is still superior.

So, with that out of the way, I think it's smarter to move towards erasing those laws that unfairly target specific groups of people instead of addressing how we police the laws we do have, because I genuinely think it is a good thing to catch as many criminals as possible, even if they're all one race, because you still end up with a safer society that way overall, and that benefits all races equally. For every criminal there's a crime and for most crimes there's a victim and like stated above most black people's crime victims will be other black people so you could look at the disproportionate arrests as being done in order to uphold justice for the black victims. I don't see why such an interpretation is never presented.

First off, let me commend you. This is exactly the kind of post I was hoping to get when I first started this thread. It pushes the conversation, and this is what is sorely, sorely needed. Thank you for this.

Now to the matter at hand, it's a two parter answer. The first are the issues that Gethsemani addressed. Second part is the insult on top of injury that on top of those issues that people must turn to crime to scrape by, the majority gets to spin the situation that blacks are natural trouble makers so they need to be 'overseen' for everyone's protection.

Let's delve into the first. And once again, I have to say that Gethsemani hit the nail right on the head. Studies show that [urll=https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/18/16307782/study-racism-jobs]anti-Black Hiring practices[/url] are still alive and well today. Even Forbes reports that something as simple as a name will keep someone from actually even getting a call back. And that's just if the black person was lucky enough to get a good enough education to get to that point as it were.

We just need to look at New York State, one of the most 'liberal' states in the union to see that it still has one of the most segregated school systems in America.

The 1968 Kerner Commission report found that "Our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white-separate and unequal." The Commission was appointed by President Johnson to investigate the causes of the Detroit riots.

Fifty years later, New York State has the most segregated schools in the country and ranks 49th in school funding equity, resulting in a separate and unequal educational system by underfunding schools that predominantly serve Black, Brown and poor students. Governor Cuomo's budget proposal includes only $338 million in Foundation Aid, an amount that is woefully short of what is necessary to maintain programming and services, let alone advance equity.

And a room full of statistically-likely previous Obama voters go crazy at the idea that there might be more minorities in the school.

Hell, Biased Target Chicago isn't immune to it. Chicago Public School Systems are underfunded by around 2.4 Billion Dollars. But we live in a world of Bootstraps, if you hear conservatives talk about it. It doesn't matter if you don't have anything. You should figure out how to make that work for you and make a success for yourself. It doesn't matter that you can't get a decent education. It doesn't matter that you can't get a job because of your 'unique name' that the descendants of slaves who were robbed a culture are trying to make their own in a country that doesn't care about them.

Somehow through all of that, you, Black Person have failed. You don't deserve any help.

But the Black person still needs to eat. So he slings that rock.

And here comes the same majority who didn't want anything to do with situation a good deal of Black people find themselves in due to the actions of the majority's ancestors... oh, they got a lot to say now. Doing anything to make sure you can survive is disgusting as long as it involves drugs or gangs. It doesn't matter if avenues weren't open for you. You should have magic-ed up another way.

And that leads to the second part. After everything that was denied to blacks, they must deal with being condemned to over policing. There are black criminals. Some quite honestly didn't need a reason to go to crime. That's the same of all human populations. Some are just wrong. But there are others who couldn't find a way. And for that, Blacks are subjected to policing the likes of which do not seemed to be rivaled in this country.

But that's not the worst part. Imagine losing your job because you're not finding enough minorities to arrest. Imagine having to be stationed at a place where there are few 'acceptable' arrests so you have to go to the black side of town and just drum up some trouble. Michael A. Wood is an ex officer who knew that life well.

Once we get past the lack of opportunities for blacks, once we get past the overpolicing... the next question is why.

And that's money. The work that Prison inmates do total up to a Billion Dollars in Revenue. This has a bit to do with bias, but this is all about money. The money 'saved' by not giving Blacks the education. The jobs of police officers and a criminal justice system slated to keep 'the black population under control'. The Revenue that prisons generate from inmates.

To many, it just makes financial sense to rob blacks of their humanity. It has historically yielded great returns, and this time period is no different.

Dreiko:
This is somewhat tangential to the conversation at hand but I always wondered about the narrative regarding over-policing. Is the thought that black people being targeted by police disproportionally are actually innocent of the crimes they get caught doing? Or is it that we should let more black criminals go free due to proportionality?

To add to what was already said, you have issues of black people "looking guiltier" than white people, according (presumably unconsciously) to a large part of society. The justice system involves a lot of instinct and subjective decisions that are skewed to a greater or lesser degree by racism.

So you get white people calling police on black people they think are suspicious for no good reason. Apparently the police have to go investigate this even if they know it's a waste of time. You also get police who are more likely to see black people as dangerous and shoot them, whether or not they are posing any kind of threat. The US police forces are notoriously trigger happy, but moreso in regards to black people. This also means that some people are hesitant to call police when they see a black person being suspicious for reals, because they worry a minor crime might end in a police shooting. The police loses public trust, and thus cannot do it's job.

If there is evidence a black person did commit a crime, they are more likely to be convicted, and likely to receive harsher punishment than a white person in the same situatation.

I see a lot of context and justification but I feel that the core of the argument is being sidestepped here.

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think we need to use this understanding as motivational fuel to change this circumstance that causes poor people to be brought into a life of crime but that has nothing to do with the heart of the topic at hand here. The moment you discard justice because it leads to a lopsided outcome is the moment you cease moving towards true progress. You can't ever achieve anything good with that approach. What we have to do is uphold equally applied justice and strive to live up to its ideal even more, not come up with excuses why it shouldn't apply to some people.

As for the sentencing issue, it's the same with women getting less harsh punishments than men. Judges are people and people are prone to bias. The more society advances and the fewer crimes are committed by black people the lower the disparity between sentencing will be as well.

Dreiko:
This is somewhat tangential to the conversation at hand but I always wondered about the narrative regarding over-policing. Is the thought that black people being targeted by police disproportionally are actually innocent of the crimes they get caught doing? Or is it that we should let more black criminals go free due to proportionality? Basically, to me, it sounds like you're supporting a much larger injustice in order to mitigate a smaller one. No, I don't think black people should be over-policed and a lot of the laws in place are there to target them but at the same time black people are aware of these laws so they can still behave legally. I fully believe anyone of any race can behave legally and so I will blame a black criminal just as much as I would a white one, while acknowledging that their experience is not the same. Despite that, their error in behaving illegally is still superior.

So, with that out of the way, I think it's smarter to move towards erasing those laws that unfairly target specific groups of people instead of addressing how we police the laws we do have, because I genuinely think it is a good thing to catch as many criminals as possible, even if they're all one race, because you still end up with a safer society that way overall, and that benefits all races equally. For every criminal there's a crime and for most crimes there's a victim and like stated above most black people's crime victims will be other black people so you could look at the disproportionate arrests as being done in order to uphold justice for the black victims. I don't see why such an interpretation is never presented.

Much of the problem with how law enforcement is done in the US is that we have entrenched systematic racism in that not only do they have a long history of allowing the KKK and other racist organizations to infiltrate and control departments, but they have department procedures that directly target minorities. When you listen to what ex cops who have finally spoken up, it is as bad as it gets. Planting evidence, defecating in their homes on their belongings, beating people up for shits and giggles.. seriously what cops have been telling us has been happening is frightening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nPyf-0UMc
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33293421
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/124937/years-white-supremacists-dothan-alabama-police-department-allegedly-planted-drugs-guns-black-people
http://theundefeated.com/features/this-is-what-happens-when-a-black-cop-calls-out-racism-in-her-own-department/

It is far more than just the laws that target minorities, it is those who are above the law who target minorities getting a "licence to do whatever the f-ck they want to to them" when they become a cop in their neighborhood. People feeling helpless against such a brutal force set out against them often for simply existing and a judicial system that frequently ignores anything the black person says and believes the cops so there is little help or hope in ever having this stopped in regions where racism runs their world.

Dreiko:
I see a lot of context and justification but I feel that the core of the argument is being sidestepped here.

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think we need to use this understanding as motivational fuel to change this circumstance that causes poor people to be brought into a life of crime but that has nothing to do with the heart of the topic at hand here. The moment you discard justice because it leads to a lopsided outcome is the moment you cease moving towards true progress. You can't ever achieve anything good with that approach. What we have to do is uphold equally applied justice and strive to live up to its ideal even more, not come up with excuses why it shouldn't apply to some people.

As for the sentencing issue, it's the same with women getting less harsh punishments than men. Judges are people and people are prone to bias. The more society advances and the fewer crimes are committed by black people the lower the disparity between sentencing will be as well.

The entire approach to crime in the US creates more crime rather than reduces it. Honestly, we should scrap the entire way the US does things and listen to what the Netherlands has to say about it, considering their approach has resulted in them having to close down many prisons because they no longer have enough criminals to use them. Instead of " locking up criminals" they have a tagging system that allows them to work and be free instead of being jailed as long as they are not a danger to society. They focus on rehabilitation and solving the problems that cause desperation and crime so that no one is forced into crime due to poverty so that they have extremely low re offending rates, and low crime rate overall. When a society takes care of it's people and treats them equally, people are not forced into crime to begin with. The US has to address it's inequality issues and eliminate poverty to solve this not build more jails. Treat all it's people as they are all equally important and take care of them just the same instead of having one set of laws and privilege to the wealthy and another for the poor. It is the wealthy, not the poor that are the biggest threat to civilization as we know it. We are moving towards the wealthy walling off their areas from the poor and paying for their own police and leave everyone else to fend for themselves without access to resources.

According to all the information on this, it is apparent that the wealthy are causing the problems here:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

THIS is the problem and their answer cannot be to lock up everyone on the left because they want to hoard all of the earths resources for themselves and give none to the rest of the population:
image

IF we want to address crime, we should take some of the stacks over there on the right and more evenly distribute them so that people are not forced into crime in order to survive. Considering how the majority of the wealthy earned their wealth due to underpaying workers, it is just giving the workers back their due. Most of the wealthy do not work hard, they make money off of everyone else working hard, and that is at the core of the problem here to solve crime. Not only is that not sustainable, it is the actual cause of the core problems here. The biggest issue is that people became comfortable with the " slave economy" and although they pay workers, they do not pay them adequately.

EDIT: Some may remember me discussing the family that we found living under the floor boards of a fallen down shack with only two wall standing and no roof near a creek by my parents home in the wealthiest per sq ft county in the State of Texas, what was even more upsetting was they were not the only such family doing such to survive in the county. I personally knew of five families in this wealthy county existing without water, electricity of sanitation in falling down shacks that looked similar to these:
image
image
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If I knew of 5 families living like this in my county alone growing up, all with young children, how many more actually existed uncounted? Why should such poverty exist in a nation with as much wealth as the US? And yes, sadly all of these families were Black that were forced to live like this.

Dreiko:

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think this is where our perspectives really differ. The reason me, ObsidianJones, Lil devils s and Thaluikhain bring up the social background of many black criminals? Because we believe that the justice system ought to rehabilitate instead of punish. Under the conditions that many poor people grow up in in the US, they really don't have an option for gainful employment besides crime. So as a society the US can either chose a perpetual grind of poverty leading to crime leading to tons of people being incarcerated in the US prison system (a prison system that houses a quarter of all criminal prisoners on Earth with less then 5% of the total Earth population, think about that) or it can try to reform those prisoners to productive members of society. Meanwhile major reforms is needed so that people can't get so mind staggeringly poor in the richest country on Earth to begin with, if only to bring down the crime rates.

There's also the fact that this "over policing" of Black people leads to a perpetuation of Racism as ObsidianJones described. Black people are poor, thus they commit crimes and that allows the police to make a few quick arrests of known (black) troublemakers when they need to boost their numbers. To the uninformed public this over representation of black people in police arrests can easily be interpreted as black people just being naturally more delinquent.

Finally there's also the problem that black people get over policed in proportion to the crimes they are committing and their sentencing is harsher. It is well-established that middle class white youth use more drugs then poor, inner city black youth today, but guess which of those two are over represented in drug case convictions? On top of that, black youth gets much harsher sentencing for the same crimes.

I have no problem admitting that I'm mostly wanting to respond to your 'While Black' bit.

ObsidianJones:
I know I'm one of the few Ethnic Minorities on these forums

Hello. There's a lot more of us than you think.

And I thought for a 'fun' exercise that will lead me into some type of sadness, I'd make a list of "...While Black" that happened just this year.

[#While Black Offenses]
-White Woman calls Police for family BBQing in a Park

Can just as easily be blamed on someone with a stick up their ass, no matter the race. Can't be ruled out, however.

-Cutting Grass and having your own business at twelve years old... while black

Similar to the above, but even I have to admit that there's probably a race thing here, and not just a stick. The tiebreaker is the slip and slide bit.

-Napping at Yale... while black

Just seeing that woman's reaction, I'm saying there was a stick up her ass too. Nobody cares about who naps in a damn common room unless you have something firmly wedged up there.

-Opening your own Lemonade Store

...The supposed description of someone moving items out of the shop holds some water on it being legitimate concern for a new business opening, but I wouldn't risk a large sum of money on a bet.

-Selling water so you can take your family to Disney World

Stick up her ass made all the more ironic that she sells cannabis products. You'd think she'd care less about permits.

-Shopping for Prom. This one gets me a lot because they DID buy things when they left, but the cops were still waiting for them.

Yeah, racism. Though I should mention that the cops would likely not be called off because it's not uncommon to shoplift while actually buying things. Crazy but true. Also doesn't justify the dipshittery of the staff involved.

-Investing in Homes while black. This is also particularly annoying because he talked to the lady and showed her his papers... and she didn't care.

Stick up her ass and racism. And I'm beginning to notice a pattern here.

-Being a Firefighter while black. Again, talked to the person who called the Police, even provided his id... but it wasn't enough.

Racial profiling.

-Checking out of an AirBnb while black. This one involved a Helicopter!

Not sure how long the place has been used as an Airbnb rental, but I can realistically understand this one being totally innocent in nature. The cop didn't even know what Airbnb was. Hell, I've had the cops called on me while moving out of a house and I look pretty light. To be fair, it was in the evening.

-Being a Black Lawmaker who is canvassing the neighborhood

...I'm leaning on innocent but actually stupid, since the woman agreed to talk to her and, judging from the tweet, seemed to properly apologize. It's pretty hard to mistake someone actually talking to people as casing a joint, but I can see it happening. I can also see someone talking to residents for information that might help a break-in but... also stupid. I'm kind of eh on this one. Except the cop not being a dumbass, that was nice.

-Eating at Subway for... a long period of time, I guess?

That's just someone being stupid and overly paranoid of people abusing refills. And now I feel like I need to wash my hands.

-Golfing While Black

I'll give it to you, but I'm going with them just being dicks. I don't do golf, but I'm pretty sure it's an inherently slow experience.

-Moving into your own home while Black

At almost midnight. Dude, you gotta admit that there is at least some reasonable line of thinking that some dude is probably breaking into a place at that hour, if they're moving tools and there's loud banging in the middle of the night. I'd even chalk that up to my own experience moving out, and the neighbor caring more about me losing my shit to a break-in.

-Woman calls the cops on a man listening to a Yoga CD in his car... and the Police encourage the behavior!

woman is braindead. Cops had their heart in the right place, but their head... not so much. Probably thought that it'd encourage people not to call police for even genuine incidents and... bah, not the story. Still stupid.

For a second, I saw the hat and assumed she thought he was a Trump supporter.

-Going to the park while black and having a white kid hurl insults to you will get a gun in your face. The cops will deny it at first... and then will change their story to say they only aimed at one of them, which makes it better.

Punk taunting them and making the false call is at blame and a shithead. Pure malice. Cops involved... following procedure, but it's still stupid. But there's a whole different conversation to be had there.

-Hollywood Actors are not immune to it as Ving Rhames found

Fuck me, it's Ving Rhames! But, yeah, his neighbor probably assumed the worst based on skin color and an unidentified individual. How him entering or being in his house looked like a break-in, hell if I can guess. But what Ving said really struck a cord, because I do remember the exact story he's thinking of.

-Man accused of trying to break into his own car.

Not an uncommon circumstance for anyone, doesn't sound like the woman cared to ask questions beyond the initial three. Can't say more because the video is gone.

-White Man Calls Police over access to the Pool. And even when the woman acquiesces and shows him her id... he doesn't believe it.

Yeah, racial profiling.

-Back to the Pool... Over some socks.

Same as above. But who wears socks in a pool?

-Couponing while Black

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the guy. There's been a shitload of people printing out fake coupons so they can get free expensive shit, or get it at a major discount. To call the police for the attempt isn't unheard of.

-#Being in the Wrong Place While Black

Your name for this one is arguably unrelated. The woman is a manic bitch. Racial? Maybe. But definitely a bitch.

-And of course, I had to save this for last. I think it affected people the most because that meant for one day, they couldn't get their coffee: Waiting in Starbucks while Black

And this is the one that made me want to look at all of these in particular, because I know this one quite well. I'll admit that a lot more of these came out as plausibly racial in nature than I originally thought, since the ones I skimmed were ones I was fairly familiar with, but there are a several that are blatant racial profiling. I'll definitely give you that. But not this last one. The entire reason why is summed up with Commissioner Richard Ross' segment of the article:

In a statement on Facebook Live, Ross said that Starbucks employees called 911 to report a trespassing complaint.
The employees told officers the two men wanted to use the restroom but were told the facilities are only for paying customers. The Starbucks employees then asked the men to leave, but they refused, Ross said.
Officers responded and asked the men three times "politely to leave the location because they were being asked to leave by employees because they were trespassing." When the men again refused to leave, they were arrested "without incident," Ross said.
The men were taken to a police station and released when it became clear Starbucks didn't want to press charges.
"They did a service that they were called to do," Ross said of the officers. "And if you think about it logically, that if a business calls and they say that someone is here that I no longer wish to be in my business, (officers) now have a legal obligation to carry out their duties. And they did just that."
Ross, who is black, referenced his own experiences while making his case, saying, "As an African-American male, I am very aware of implicit bias."
"We are committed to fair and unbiased policing and anything less than that will not be tolerated in this department."

Two men entered a business. They did not buy anything. They asked to use the restroom. They were denied and asked to buy something to do so/continue sitting inside the business, but they refused. Police were contacted in order to remove trespassers, which is what they now were. Police came. Officers gave them three chances to leave the business. They refused and were arrested. They were taken to the cop shop and released. What part of that is racial profiling in any manner?

The kicker is that the manager(who was following company policy) lost her job for doing what Starbucks trained her to do, with racial profiling not being involved anywhere in the process. They threw her under the damn bus in order to look good. I hope Richard Ross and the two officers that arrived on scene have a happy new year and I hope Starbucks goes bankrupt next decade.

And I know it's a bit late, but enjoy your Academia. Or probably Boruto now. Whatever floats your boat. Also I went through all of the above with solely the sources provided. My opinion might change with new information.

Gethsemani:

Dreiko:

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think this is where our perspectives really differ. The reason me, ObsidianJones, Lil devils s and Thaluikhain bring up the social background of many black criminals? Because we believe that the justice system ought to rehabilitate instead of punish. Under the conditions that many poor people grow up in in the US, they really don't have an option for gainful employment besides crime. So as a society the US can either chose a perpetual grind of poverty leading to crime leading to tons of people being incarcerated in the US prison system (a prison system that houses a quarter of all criminal prisoners on Earth with less then 5% of the total Earth population, think about that) or it can try to reform those prisoners to productive members of society. Meanwhile major reforms is needed so that people can't get so mind staggeringly poor in the richest country on Earth to begin with, if only to bring down the crime rates.

There's also the fact that this "over policing" of Black people leads to a perpetuation of Racism as ObsidianJones described. Black people are poor, thus they commit crimes and that allows the police to make a few quick arrests of known (black) troublemakers when they need to boost their numbers. To the uninformed public this over representation of black people in police arrests can easily be interpreted as black people just being naturally more delinquent.

Finally there's also the problem that black people get over policed in proportion to the crimes they are committing and their sentencing is harsher. It is well-established that middle class white youth use more drugs then poor, inner city black youth today, but guess which of those two are over represented in drug case convictions? On top of that, black youth gets much harsher sentencing for the same crimes.

I am in full agreement with prisons being converted into a system of rehabilitation and not pure punishment. To rehabilitate someone you need to first actually arrest and convict them though, and this is what I am saying is good to have happen even if it happens more to one group than another.

I think listing the myriads of faults with the thing we do after we catch the criminals is kinda missing the point and arguing against a strawman cause I'm all for those reforms and turning the system into something more like the ones found in Europe as well as addressing those issues with regards to poverty and lack of opportunity. I just don't see what any of that has to do with whether or not it's the right thing to arrest every last criminal you possibly can.

Is the argument that because prisons are as they are that it's more just to not arrest them or what? Cause that I can at least understand to a level but still disagree with, though I'm not sure I even saw that argument being made to begin with.

Dreiko:

Gethsemani:

Dreiko:

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think this is where our perspectives really differ. The reason me, ObsidianJones, Lil devils s and Thaluikhain bring up the social background of many black criminals? Because we believe that the justice system ought to rehabilitate instead of punish. Under the conditions that many poor people grow up in in the US, they really don't have an option for gainful employment besides crime. So as a society the US can either chose a perpetual grind of poverty leading to crime leading to tons of people being incarcerated in the US prison system (a prison system that houses a quarter of all criminal prisoners on Earth with less then 5% of the total Earth population, think about that) or it can try to reform those prisoners to productive members of society. Meanwhile major reforms is needed so that people can't get so mind staggeringly poor in the richest country on Earth to begin with, if only to bring down the crime rates.

There's also the fact that this "over policing" of Black people leads to a perpetuation of Racism as ObsidianJones described. Black people are poor, thus they commit crimes and that allows the police to make a few quick arrests of known (black) troublemakers when they need to boost their numbers. To the uninformed public this over representation of black people in police arrests can easily be interpreted as black people just being naturally more delinquent.

Finally there's also the problem that black people get over policed in proportion to the crimes they are committing and their sentencing is harsher. It is well-established that middle class white youth use more drugs then poor, inner city black youth today, but guess which of those two are over represented in drug case convictions? On top of that, black youth gets much harsher sentencing for the same crimes.

I am in full agreement with prisons being converted into a system of rehabilitation and not pure punishment. To rehabilitate someone you need to first actually arrest and convict them though, and this is what I am saying is good to have happen even if it happens more to one group than another.

I think listing the myriads of faults with the thing we do after we catch the criminals is kinda missing the point and arguing against a strawman cause I'm all for those reforms and turning the system into something more like the ones found in Europe as well as addressing those issues with regards to poverty and lack of opportunity. I just don't see what any of that has to do with whether or not it's the right thing to arrest every last criminal you possibly can.

Is the argument that because prisons are as they are that it's more just to not arrest them or what? Cause that I can at least understand to a level but still disagree with, though I'm not sure I even saw that argument being made to begin with.

That is the thing you are starting at the end of the problem and trying to work backwards instead of at the beginning of the problem and work forwards. We have to START with addressing poverty and victimless crime then move on to not using the prison at all, instead create a new system without the prisons as a primary part of it. Like I stated above with the Netherlands, they use a tagging system, and many of those in actual custody are not in actual prison as you understand it, they are in a " village" of sorts with their own little houses and have a mentor come to their home every day and take them to work with them and include them in the community and teach them how to live. Those without family become part of a wider family and are given the emotional and financial support they need to be able to change their lives. The prisons should be torn down not repurposed for the most part.

In addition, we have many in the US in prison with mental health issues while they do not treat mental health issues the same in the Netherlands. Even their mental Hospitals are nowhere near the same. They do not lock people up in mass abusing and medicate them as they do in the US, they treat them as human beings with dignity and respect. Only those who pose an actual threat to society are restricted, not treating everyone like they are. They actually try to help them solve their problems and live a better life rather than focus on what is profitable.

In the end there will not be as many people causing problems to arrest when they have most of the problems that were causing their despair solved already. And those that are arrested. they will be tagged and let go, not losing their jobs and leaving their existing support systems, they instead will be provided help rather than punishment. Punishment is not an objective to solvuing the problem long term, help is.

Leg End:
I have no problem admitting that I'm mostly wanting to respond to your 'While Black' bit.

ObsidianJones:
I know I'm one of the few Ethnic Minorities on these forums

Hello. There's a lot more of us than you think.

And I thought for a 'fun' exercise that will lead me into some type of sadness, I'd make a list of "...While Black" that happened just this year.

[#While Black Offenses]
-White Woman calls Police for family BBQing in a Park

Can just as easily be blamed on someone with a stick up their ass, no matter the race. Can't be ruled out, however.

-Cutting Grass and having your own business at twelve years old... while black

Similar to the above, but even I have to admit that there's probably a race thing here, and not just a stick. The tiebreaker is the slip and slide bit.

-Napping at Yale... while black

Just seeing that woman's reaction, I'm saying there was a stick up her ass too. Nobody cares about who naps in a damn common room unless you have something firmly wedged up there.

-Opening your own Lemonade Store

...The supposed description of someone moving items out of the shop holds some water on it being legitimate concern for a new business opening, but I wouldn't risk a large sum of money on a bet.

-Selling water so you can take your family to Disney World

Stick up her ass made all the more ironic that she sells cannabis products. You'd think she'd care less about permits.

-Shopping for Prom. This one gets me a lot because they DID buy things when they left, but the cops were still waiting for them.

Yeah, racism. Though I should mention that the cops would likely not be called off because it's not uncommon to shoplift while actually buying things. Crazy but true. Also doesn't justify the dipshittery of the staff involved.

-Investing in Homes while black. This is also particularly annoying because he talked to the lady and showed her his papers... and she didn't care.

Stick up her ass and racism. And I'm beginning to notice a pattern here.

-Being a Firefighter while black. Again, talked to the person who called the Police, even provided his id... but it wasn't enough.

Racial profiling.

-Checking out of an AirBnb while black. This one involved a Helicopter!

Not sure how long the place has been used as an Airbnb rental, but I can realistically understand this one being totally innocent in nature. The cop didn't even know what Airbnb was. Hell, I've had the cops called on me while moving out of a house and I look pretty light. To be fair, it was in the evening.

-Being a Black Lawmaker who is canvassing the neighborhood

...I'm leaning on innocent but actually stupid, since the woman agreed to talk to her and, judging from the tweet, seemed to properly apologize. It's pretty hard to mistake someone actually talking to people as casing a joint, but I can see it happening. I can also see someone talking to residents for information that might help a break-in but... also stupid. I'm kind of eh on this one. Except the cop not being a dumbass, that was nice.

-Eating at Subway for... a long period of time, I guess?

That's just someone being stupid and overly paranoid of people abusing refills. And now I feel like I need to wash my hands.

-Golfing While Black

I'll give it to you, but I'm going with them just being dicks. I don't do golf, but I'm pretty sure it's an inherently slow experience.

-Moving into your own home while Black

At almost midnight. Dude, you gotta admit that there is at least some reasonable line of thinking that some dude is probably breaking into a place at that hour, if they're moving tools and there's loud banging in the middle of the night. I'd even chalk that up to my own experience moving out, and the neighbor caring more about me losing my shit to a break-in.

-Woman calls the cops on a man listening to a Yoga CD in his car... and the Police encourage the behavior!

woman is braindead. Cops had their heart in the right place, but their head... not so much. Probably thought that it'd encourage people not to call police for even genuine incidents and... bah, not the story. Still stupid.

For a second, I saw the hat and assumed she thought he was a Trump supporter.

-Going to the park while black and having a white kid hurl insults to you will get a gun in your face. The cops will deny it at first... and then will change their story to say they only aimed at one of them, which makes it better.

Punk taunting them and making the false call is at blame and a shithead. Pure malice. Cops involved... following procedure, but it's still stupid. But there's a whole different conversation to be had there.

-Hollywood Actors are not immune to it as Ving Rhames found

Fuck me, it's Ving Rhames! But, yeah, his neighbor probably assumed the worst based on skin color and an unidentified individual. How him entering or being in his house looked like a break-in, hell if I can guess. But what Ving said really struck a cord, because I do remember the exact story he's thinking of.

-Man accused of trying to break into his own car.

Not an uncommon circumstance for anyone, doesn't sound like the woman cared to ask questions beyond the initial three. Can't say more because the video is gone.

-White Man Calls Police over access to the Pool. And even when the woman acquiesces and shows him her id... he doesn't believe it.

Yeah, racial profiling.

-Back to the Pool... Over some socks.

Same as above. But who wears socks in a pool?

-Couponing while Black

I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the guy. There's been a shitload of people printing out fake coupons so they can get free expensive shit, or get it at a major discount. To call the police for the attempt isn't unheard of.

-#Being in the Wrong Place While Black

Your name for this one is arguably unrelated. The woman is a manic bitch. Racial? Maybe. But definitely a bitch.

-And of course, I had to save this for last. I think it affected people the most because that meant for one day, they couldn't get their coffee: Waiting in Starbucks while Black

And this is the one that made me want to look at all of these in particular, because I know this one quite well. I'll admit that a lot more of these came out as plausibly racial in nature than I originally thought, since the ones I skimmed were ones I was fairly familiar with, but there are a several that are blatant racial profiling. I'll definitely give you that. But not this last one. The entire reason why is summed up with Commissioner Richard Ross' segment of the article:

In a statement on Facebook Live, Ross said that Starbucks employees called 911 to report a trespassing complaint.
The employees told officers the two men wanted to use the restroom but were told the facilities are only for paying customers. The Starbucks employees then asked the men to leave, but they refused, Ross said.
Officers responded and asked the men three times "politely to leave the location because they were being asked to leave by employees because they were trespassing." When the men again refused to leave, they were arrested "without incident," Ross said.
The men were taken to a police station and released when it became clear Starbucks didn't want to press charges.
"They did a service that they were called to do," Ross said of the officers. "And if you think about it logically, that if a business calls and they say that someone is here that I no longer wish to be in my business, (officers) now have a legal obligation to carry out their duties. And they did just that."
Ross, who is black, referenced his own experiences while making his case, saying, "As an African-American male, I am very aware of implicit bias."
"We are committed to fair and unbiased policing and anything less than that will not be tolerated in this department."

Two men entered a business. They did not buy anything. They asked to use the restroom. They were denied and asked to buy something to do so/continue sitting inside the business, but they refused. Police were contacted in order to remove trespassers, which is what they now were. Police came. Officers gave them three chances to leave the business. They refused and were arrested. They were taken to the cop shop and released. What part of that is racial profiling in any manner?

The kicker is that the manager(who was following company policy) lost her job for doing what Starbucks trained her to do, with racial profiling not being involved anywhere in the process. They threw her under the damn bus in order to look good. I hope Richard Ross and the two officers that arrived on scene have a happy new year and I hope Starbucks goes bankrupt next decade.

And I know it's a bit late, but enjoy your Academia. Or probably Boruto now. Whatever floats your boat. Also I went through all of the above with solely the sources provided. My opinion might change with new information.

The guys waiting in starbucks told the Star bucks employee they were waiting for someone to arrive before ordering. I have never seen anyone asked to leave a restaurant for waiting for another party to arrive before ordering. That is in no way what she was trained to do.

Edit:From all witnesses, the place also had plenty of open tables, this was not even an issue of trying to seat other customers, which is why they would have a reason to clear a table in the first place. They were not doing their job as trained to do, they were using company policies that applied to different situations because they did not want them in their store. They did not need the table for turnover, the men at the table were not even being disruptive, and they were waiting for another party to arrive, and it is customary for people to wait for their party to arrive before ordering. They are not obligated to order btw, even if just the guy meeting them orders something after he arrives, that is all that is needed to meet any order requirement. However, this is a coffee house, of which it is customary for people to "hang out with friends" as many people do in coffee houses, which means they do not put as much pressure as other restaurant types for table turnover and loitering, as they instead actually encourage people to do so.

Encouraging people to hang out IS their actual policy:
https://www.cnet.com/news/starbucks-stay-as-long-as-you-want/

How about this one:

A Black guy goes to cash his paycheck which was really not even large and they call the cops on him and have him handcuffed...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/18/black-man-tried-cash-his-paycheck-bank-called-cops/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b7eda0c9bd94

I spoke to a bank manager here about this incident and according to them there is no way that should have ever happened, ever and that the amount of that guys check did not even warrant confirmation.. the whole thing was complete BS. In college I cashed checks for so much more than that quickly and was never questioned once, nor did I have to provide 2 forms of ID. It is crazy how they treated this guy.

Dreiko:
I just don't see what any of that has to do with whether or not it's the right thing to arrest every last criminal you possibly can.

I suppose you could make an argument that if you can only arrest X criminals, as long as you arrest X criminals it doesn't matter which ones (given equivalently serious crimes). However, the police in the US (and other places) will go after (investigate, arrest or kill) black people disproportionately, in the belief (conscious or not) that they look more criminal than white people, whether or not they are criminals.

At the very least, any police officer who is hassling (investigating, arresting or killing) an innocent black person isn't a police officer who is dealing with actual criminals. You're always going to get that to some extent, but racism doesn't help. You might extend that to police officers targeting petty criminals who are black because they are black and seeming more criminal instead of dealing with more serious issues, but that's much more of a grey area.

As well as that, different things that may or may not be criminalised are done to different extents by different demographics, and the people who pass legislation are aware of this.

Lil devils x:
The guys waiting in starbucks told the Star bucks employee they were waiting for someone to arrive before ordering. I have never seen anyone asked to leave a restaurant for waiting for another party to arrive before ordering. That is in no way what she was trained to do.

I have. Employees can be dicks. In this case, it's still asking somebody to leave. I don't see race being a factor.

Edit:From all witnesses, the place also had plenty of open tables, this was not even an issue of trying to seat other customers, which is why they would have a reason to clear a table in the first place.

Maybe they don't want people just loitering in the place? I have issues with being gung-ho about people hanging out with free space, but it's still their right to boot people from their property if they aren't even customers.

They were not doing their job as trained to do, they were using company policies that applied to different situations because they did not want them in their store.

That's a bit of a stretch there.

They did not need the table for turnover, the men at the table were not even being disruptive, and they were waiting for another party to arrive, and it is customary for people to wait for their party to arrive before ordering.

Sure, at places that don't tend to deal with people loitering a lot and wanting to use customer bathrooms. Is it wrong? Debatable. Doesn't make them racist.

They are not obligated to order btw, even if just the guy meeting them orders something after he arrives, that is all that is needed to meet any order requirement.

The establishment must first believe that claim. Many do, many don't. A lot of that being due to homeless people.

However, this is a coffee house, of which it is customary for people to "hang out with friends" as many people do in coffee houses, which means they do not put as much pressure as other restaurant types for table turnover and loitering, as they instead actually encourage people to do so.

Usually those friends come in with them.

Encouraging people to hang out IS their actual policy:
https://www.cnet.com/news/starbucks-stay-as-long-as-you-want/

After you have purchased something.

How about this one:

A Black guy goes to cash his paycheck which was really not even large and they call the cops on him and have him handcuffed...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/18/black-man-tried-cash-his-paycheck-bank-called-cops/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b7eda0c9bd94

I spoke to a bank manager here about this incident and according to them there is no way that should have ever happened, ever and that the amount of that guys check did not even warrant confirmation.. the whole thing was complete BS. In college I cashed checks for so much more than that quickly and was never questioned once, nor did I have to provide 2 forms of ID. It is crazy how they treated this guy.

I totally agree with your opinion on the treatment. The teller was stupid. But you can't say it was racially motivated just because he was black. Especially since the article you linked even mentions that there were ten recent incidents with fake checks. Did the employee go overboard? Yes. Was it due to race? Evidence doesn't support it.

Dreiko:
I see a lot of context and justification but I feel that the core of the argument is being sidestepped here.

Fundamentally it still is overall a societal good to arrest them, despite the tragedy that surrounds their circumstances. It still is overall a good thing for society (and this includes black people too, the majority of them in fact) to arrest as many criminals as possible. The fact that there's an understandable reason that someone was driven to crime does nothing to undo the fact that we need order and equal application of law for society to flourish so we still do want to actually arrest people in proportion to the crimes that are being committed.

I think we need to use this understanding as motivational fuel to change this circumstance that causes poor people to be brought into a life of crime but that has nothing to do with the heart of the topic at hand here. The moment you discard justice because it leads to a lopsided outcome is the moment you cease moving towards true progress. You can't ever achieve anything good with that approach. What we have to do is uphold equally applied justice and strive to live up to its ideal even more, not come up with excuses why it shouldn't apply to some people.

As for the sentencing issue, it's the same with women getting less harsh punishments than men. Judges are people and people are prone to bias. The more society advances and the fewer crimes are committed by black people the lower the disparity between sentencing will be as well.

Then let me make it clearer.

The things I've stated creates criminals due to a lack of a better option and also brings black people in for no reason, other than Cops have a quota for busts per month. Unofficial, but enough cops are blowing the whistle on it that we need to take notice.

The Majority of those freed from the Innocent Project are black. The Numbers of Convictions and arrests are staggering, in terms of how more likely Blacks are to be imprisioned for things they don't do across the Board. But this part stuck with me.

For the third straight year, the Registry found a record number of exonerations in 2016, and a record number of cases involving official misconduct. A record high of 166 exonerations was reported last year, with 54 people exonerated of homicide. In more of these exonerations than in any previous year, government officials committed misconduct (70); the convictions were based on guilty pleas (74); no crime actually occurred (94); and a prosecutorial conviction integrity unit worked on the exoneration (70).

57 percent of the people who were freed in 2016 were arrested and awaited to be freed when No Crime Actually Occurred. Not that they have the wrong guy, not that there was a mix up in evidence... At least 94 Police Officers needed better stats so they found some guy, made up a crime, so they can go back home to their families with their job secured. Doesn't matter if another family was ruined.

And by the way, it doesn't stop with Police Officers. To get these innocent people behind bars, there's a litany of people who have to go along with this falsehood. Fellow Officers, Lawyers, Judges... You have to forgive us to think Law matters when those who are tasked to uphold it barely see it as a roadbump in padding these jails with the 'criminal element'.

In short, lock up every criminal who's done something dead to rights. No one has a problem with that. But changing the laws actually won't affect anything. As we see with the percentage of Blacks arrested for weed far outstrips the percentage of Whites, even in places where it was legalized.

That's why we're talking about everything else. It isn't the laws. It's the culture. There is too much benefit for overpolicing minorities and incarnating them at higher rates. People are giving up pretext any more and ignoring the law of the land, like with Weed, to fill quotas. Changing laws won't do a thing. They already haven't. Because The Quotas, The Training, The Mindset of the Police and the non-Black Public and the circumstances of the Poor and Black Living already laid the tracks to bring us to this familiar and constant destination.

Arrest the criminals. All of us want that. But the problem is, everyone who is being arrested aren't criminals.

Leg End:
And this is the one that made me want to look at all of these in particular, because I know this one quite well. I'll admit that a lot more of these came out as plausibly racial in nature than I originally thought, since the ones I skimmed were ones I was fairly familiar with, but there are a several that are blatant racial profiling. I'll definitely give you that. But not this last one. The entire reason why is summed up with Commissioner Richard Ross' segment of the article:

In a statement on Facebook Live, Ross said that Starbucks employees called 911 to report a trespassing complaint.
The employees told officers the two men wanted to use the restroom but were told the facilities are only for paying customers. The Starbucks employees then asked the men to leave, but they refused, Ross said.
Officers responded and asked the men three times "politely to leave the location because they were being asked to leave by employees because they were trespassing." When the men again refused to leave, they were arrested "without incident," Ross said.
The men were taken to a police station and released when it became clear Starbucks didn't want to press charges.
"They did a service that they were called to do," Ross said of the officers. "And if you think about it logically, that if a business calls and they say that someone is here that I no longer wish to be in my business, (officers) now have a legal obligation to carry out their duties. And they did just that."
Ross, who is black, referenced his own experiences while making his case, saying, "As an African-American male, I am very aware of implicit bias."
"We are committed to fair and unbiased policing and anything less than that will not be tolerated in this department."

Two men entered a business. They did not buy anything. They asked to use the restroom. They were denied and asked to buy something to do so/continue sitting inside the business, but they refused. Police were contacted in order to remove trespassers, which is what they now were. Police came. Officers gave them three chances to leave the business. They refused and were arrested. They were taken to the cop shop and released. What part of that is racial profiling in any manner?

The kicker is that the manager(who was following company policy) lost her job for doing what Starbucks trained her to do, with racial profiling not being involved anywhere in the process. They threw her under the damn bus in order to look good. I hope Richard Ross and the two officers that arrived on scene have a happy new year and I hope Starbucks goes bankrupt next decade.

And I know it's a bit late, but enjoy your Academia. Or probably Boruto now. Whatever floats your boat. Also I went through all of the above with solely the sources provided. My opinion might change with new information.

First thing is first. I don't fault the police in following through with the action. I find it weird that they needed.... eight, nine officers for this? That seems like severe overkill.

Second thing, I don't drink coffee and been to starbucks at least seven times in my life. Meeting at Starbucks is apparently a thing. Who knows, this world is crazy. So I'll admit to not being the best judge of this.

But every time I've been to a Starbucks, I've seen a group of people in there. Not everyone has coffee. It seems to be a really stupid business model to let people hang out at your store, but they do it. But they seem to do it or allow it with only a certain group of people.

The problem with the situation we have now is that I listed the high profile 911's while black in the last year. It was on the list because it happened this year. If you want me to put my personal spin or ideas about it, I could. They were plenty. But as you just quoted, I saved it for last because it affected the most people. Not because it was the most obviously racist.

So you're bringing up a point that has to shift my original point to argue against. I'm pointing out Injustice and Biases. Different treatment of groups of people. Like how 'rednecks' are treated different than Urbane New Yorkers. If you can point out where I said "This is all due to Racism", then I'll come around and argue this and many other things.

But my point is that the escalation due to biases are unjust. I see arguments all the time in the streets between people. And when there are non-black people, they just walk away or curse each other out while driving. The fact that these people took to their phones to get the police involved shows another level.

Lastly, many jobs will fire you if they find out you've been arrested. If one side is willing to risk that outcome for the other, I'm not losing any sleep if they themselves end up get bitten by said actions. That being said, I don't think that's the right move. I think learning doesn't begin with expulsion.

I hundred percent know her firing was a PR move, but it was a dumb one. To show growth, you need to have those who were involved actually show the growth. Not a new spokesmodel who has no idea of what's happening.

Leg End:

Lil devils x:
The guys waiting in starbucks told the Star bucks employee they were waiting for someone to arrive before ordering. I have never seen anyone asked to leave a restaurant for waiting for another party to arrive before ordering. That is in no way what she was trained to do.

I have. Employees can be dicks. In this case, it's still asking somebody to leave. I don't see race being a factor.

Edit:From all witnesses, the place also had plenty of open tables, this was not even an issue of trying to seat other customers, which is why they would have a reason to clear a table in the first place.

Maybe they don't want people just loitering in the place? I have issues with being gung-ho about people hanging out with free space, but it's still their right to boot people from their property if they aren't even customers.

They were not doing their job as trained to do, they were using company policies that applied to different situations because they did not want them in their store.

That's a bit of a stretch there.

They did not need the table for turnover, the men at the table were not even being disruptive, and they were waiting for another party to arrive, and it is customary for people to wait for their party to arrive before ordering.

Sure, at places that don't tend to deal with people loitering a lot and wanting to use customer bathrooms. Is it wrong? Debatable. Doesn't make them racist.

They are not obligated to order btw, even if just the guy meeting them orders something after he arrives, that is all that is needed to meet any order requirement.

The establishment must first believe that claim. Many do, many don't. A lot of that being due to homeless people.

However, this is a coffee house, of which it is customary for people to "hang out with friends" as many people do in coffee houses, which means they do not put as much pressure as other restaurant types for table turnover and loitering, as they instead actually encourage people to do so.

Usually those friends come in with them.

Encouraging people to hang out IS their actual policy:
https://www.cnet.com/news/starbucks-stay-as-long-as-you-want/

After you have purchased something.

How about this one:

A Black guy goes to cash his paycheck which was really not even large and they call the cops on him and have him handcuffed...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/18/black-man-tried-cash-his-paycheck-bank-called-cops/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b7eda0c9bd94

I spoke to a bank manager here about this incident and according to them there is no way that should have ever happened, ever and that the amount of that guys check did not even warrant confirmation.. the whole thing was complete BS. In college I cashed checks for so much more than that quickly and was never questioned once, nor did I have to provide 2 forms of ID. It is crazy how they treated this guy.

I totally agree with your opinion on the treatment. The teller was stupid. But you can't say it was racially motivated just because he was black. Especially since the article you linked even mentions that there were ten recent incidents with fake checks. Did the employee go overboard? Yes. Was it due to race? Evidence doesn't support it.

That is just it, people DO hang out at Starbucks all the time without purchasing anything and are encouraged to do so. It is not their company policy according to starbucks themselves and they clarified that to make sure every employee understands that very well now after this incident. This could be an issue of the employee in question having worked at other establishments prior thinking that is what they are supposed to do, but that is not what they are supposed to do at starbucks. People have been sitting at the starbucks near here all the time and don't order just waiting for the Gamestop to open next door and no one ever has an issue with it. It can be especially bad when they have promos or autograph signings and shat at the gamestop next door because they take up the whole place but they still have never had a problem with it. This employee was definitely out of line. In addition, local patrons witness to this also stated that they only did this to the black men there and not to the white people who they have seen sit in the place prior to this, so why did they choose only to do this to them rather than do it universally?

You may want to think that " these things happen to everyone" but in reality they happen a hell of a lot more to minorities due to the sad but true fact that people are often stereotyped as being "suspicious" for being different. I live in Texas, I hear a crap ton of open racist remarks people say all the time. I actually have gotten KKK fliers on my door and car while at the market. The KKK and Nazis had an argument about who gets to stage a rally here on the same day. Hell I even had a door to door salesman actually come into my home and tell a racist joke to my face and act surprised when I threw him out and called his company. This sadly happens more than I think you want to admit.

ObsidianJones:
Lastly, many jobs will fire you if they find out you've been arrested. If one side is willing to risk that outcome for the other, I'm not losing any sleep if they themselves end up get bitten by said actions. That being said, I don't think that's the right move. I think learning doesn't begin with expulsion.

I hundred percent know her firing was a PR move, but it was a dumb one. To show growth, you need to have those who were involved actually show the growth. Not a new spokesmodel who has no idea of what's happening.

I disagree that they should not be fired. The problem is if they are racist and will continue to be racist, and their job requires they deal with other races, that has a direct impact on the employer by keeping them. They have to want to learn on their own, you have no control over whether they actually do. This is why it is important we do not have racists in positions where they can actively harm others, such as Law enforcement, immigration department, teachers, healthcare, or even making your food. The problem with allowing them to continue to work in fields where they can harm people is that they will actually harm people and we really cannot take that risk.

If they are harmful to the people they serve, their peers, or their company, they should not be in that job in the first place.

ObsidianJones:

First thing is first. I don't fault the police in following through with the action. I find it weird that they needed.... eight, nine officers for this? That seems like severe overkill.

I've only ever seen the two officers involved. I'm probably blind though. And I've heard funny things about a dozen squad cars arriving on scene to something that's not even a crime, just because the dispatch was on stupid pills. Maybe they wanted stat padding.

Second thing, I don't drink coffee and been to starbucks at least seven times in my life. Meeting at Starbucks is apparently a thing. Who knows, this world is crazy. So I'll admit to not being the best judge of this.

I've been inside a Starbucks exactly once(from memory), so I'm in the same ballpark.

But every time I've been to a Starbucks, I've seen a group of people in there. Not everyone has coffee. It seems to be a really stupid business model to let people hang out at your store, but they do it. But they seem to do it or allow it with only a certain group of people.

Considering Starbucks corporate, I can't imagine that racial selective service would be anything other than a total outlier. And it's a bit strange sounding to me too, but I've sat in a Denny's for half a day while on a single glass of lemonade, so... euh.

The problem with the situation we have now is that I listed the high profile 911's while black in the last year. It was on the list because it happened this year. If you want me to put my personal spin or ideas about it, I could. They were plenty. But as you just quoted, I saved it for last because it affected the most people. Not because it was the most obviously racist.

Being straight here, I thought you were having a bit of a laugh with that comment. I didn't know how serious or not you were with it.

So you're bringing up a point that has to shift my original point to argue against. I'm pointing out Injustice and Biases. Different treatment of groups of people. Like how 'rednecks' are treated different than Urbane New Yorkers. If you can point out where I said "This is all due to Racism", then I'll come around and argue this and many other things.

Honestly, I'm not sure you even did. I'm willing to admit I've not gotten proper sleep for quite some time and probably read things in ways they weren't meant. Apologies there if so, or even if not.

But my point is that the escalation due to biases are unjust.

...I agree.

I see arguments all the time in the streets between people. And when there are non-black people, they just walk away or curse each other out while driving. The fact that these people took to their phones to get the police involved shows another level.

I've personally seen all kinds of responses to confrontations. There really doesn't seem to be a difference with races involved and idiots in news reports look to be outliers. But that's just me and your mileage will vary.

Lastly, many jobs will fire you if they find out you've been arrested.

A problem with the world on so many levels and one I greatly sympathize with.

If one side is willing to risk that outcome for the other, I'm not losing any sleep if they themselves end up get bitten by said actions. That being said, I don't think that's the right move. I think learning doesn't begin with expulsion.

It never does. And in this case, regardless of the real cause, it's garnered her a lot of support, so she would likely be mentally reinforced regardless if she did do it for racial reasons or if she was just booting freeloaders in her mind.

I hundred percent know her firing was a PR move, but it was a dumb one. To show growth, you need to have those who were involved actually show the growth. Not a new spokesmodel who has no idea of what's happening.

I don't think anyone at Starbucks really knows what is happening anymore. They probably lost quite a few customers due to the incident, and eventually they'll lose their current ones just due to people moving on. I may have only been inside a Starbucks once(probably), but I've gone through drive-thrus with folks and ordered. Can guarantee that isn't happening ever again with their kneejerk reaction.

Leg End:
They probably lost quite a few customers due to the incident, and eventually they'll lose their current ones just due to people moving on. I may have only been inside a Starbucks once(probably), but I've gone through drive-thrus with folks and ordered. Can guarantee that isn't happening ever again with their kneejerk reaction.

I have been in starbucks plenty of times and do not even drink their coffee, but have friends that do so have been with them at the time. I can tell you yes there are plenty of people who have frequently been in starbucks that do not order anything, including myself. You can guarantee what isn't happening ever again with their knee jerk reaction? Starbucks has no problem firing whoever they want on a whim and will do so as they please. they are a horrible employer with a high turnover rate so that is pretty standard. Quality employees do not want to work there so I am sure not only will they fire more people for doing stupid things, they will also have plenty more employees do stupid things to be fired for and gain them negative publicity.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Starbucks-RVW10032668.htm

That sort of nonsense is expected in these type of low tier jobs.

EDIT: in addition having racist servers is pretty common in areas where racism is more prominent. Open racism is pretty common in some areas, so you expect to see things like this more as being not only normal but expected.

Lil devils x:
That is just it, people DO hang out at Starbucks all the time without purchasing anything and are encouraged to do so.

Well, that explains the supposed influx of teenagers and college students with Macbooks. Place sounds like the Kuddly Krab.

It is not their company policy according to starbucks themselves and they clarified that to make sure every employee understands that very well now after this incident.

Well from what was linked before, it didn't seem clear enough even with that kind if release. Which I think is understandable because I've never heard of any place in this day and age that would encourage people to hang out in their place without ordering even a single item for a group. This place sounds like magic.

This could be an issue of the employee in question having worked at other establishments prior thinking that is what they are supposed to do, but that is not what they are supposed to do at starbucks.

Well, at least they updated their training. Or so I assume.

People have been sitting at the starbucks near here all the time and don't order just waiting for the Gamestop to open next door and no one ever has an issue with it. It can be especially bad when they have promos or autograph signings and shat at the gamestop next door because they take up the whole place but they still have never had a problem with it. This employee was definitely out of line.

...I think the company is a bit crazy, but more power to em for not being assholes about loitering, if that's the case.

You may want to think that " these things happen to everyone" but in reality they happen a hell of a lot more to minorities due to the sad but true fact that people are often stereotyped as being "suspicious" for being different.

It's died down quite a bit, but it does still exist. Minorities do it to other minorities even.

I live in Texas, I hear a crap ton of open racist remarks people say all the time.

Greeting from California and we hear the same crap, just from different mouths. It's a melting pot and we all hate each other.

I actually have gotten KKK fliers on my door and car while at the market. The KKK and Nazis had an argument about who gets to stage a rally here on the same day.

That's legitimately both groups of idiots being idiots and nobody actually cares about them. Nobody likes actual Nazism and the KKK has such an insignificant amount of members, I can only think of Westboro having fewer. It's so bad, they've recently attempted to say they've 'reformed' and help charities and crap with the donations. The Klan is deader than the Donald is a Cheeto joke.

Hell I even had a door to door salesman actually come into my home and tell a racist joke to my face and act surprised when I threw him out and called his company.

Do you know if his company did anything? I'm curious.

This sadly happens more than I think you want to admit.

Oh I know it still happens. What I take issue with is assuming every incident involving someone with darker skin means someone is racist. Pretty sure it's even been stated up there in this thread or in the Racist thread, that you shouldn't hastily attribute to malice what you can attribute to someone just being an idiot. You can probably agree that it feels like more and more people aren't walking around with a full deck.

Lil devils x:
I have been in starbucks plenty of times and do not even drink their coffee, but have friends that do so have been with them at the time. I can tell you yes there are plenty of people who have frequently been in starbucks that do not order anything, including myself.

That is still one of the strangest official policies I have ever heard, and I admire them for it on some level.

You can guarantee what isn't happening ever again with their knee jerk reaction?

Referring to me never again ordering Starbucks when with a group and guaranteeing that I'll make sure nobody orders me something from there if I'm able to ask that they don't. I probably should have reworded that for it to be more clear.

Starbucks has no problem firing whoever they want on a whim and will do so as they please. they are a horrible employer with a high turnover rate so that is pretty standard. Quality employees do not want to work there so I am sure not only will they fire more people for doing stupid things, they will also have plenty more employees do stupid things to be fired for and gain them negative publicity.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Starbucks-RVW10032668.htm

That sort of nonsense is expected in these type of low tier jobs.

I am not surprised in the slightest that they treat their employees like garbage and tend to hire garbage.

Leg End:

Lil devils x:
That is just it, people DO hang out at Starbucks all the time without purchasing anything and are encouraged to do so.

Well, that explains the supposed influx of teenagers and college students with Macbooks. Place sounds like the Kuddly Krab.

It is not their company policy according to starbucks themselves and they clarified that to make sure every employee understands that very well now after this incident.

Well from what was linked before, it didn't seem clear enough even with that kind if release. Which I think is understandable because I've never heard of any place in this day and age that would encourage people to hang out in their place without ordering even a single item for a group. This place sounds like magic.

This could be an issue of the employee in question having worked at other establishments prior thinking that is what they are supposed to do, but that is not what they are supposed to do at starbucks.

Well, at least they updated their training. Or so I assume.

People have been sitting at the starbucks near here all the time and don't order just waiting for the Gamestop to open next door and no one ever has an issue with it. It can be especially bad when they have promos or autograph signings and shat at the gamestop next door because they take up the whole place but they still have never had a problem with it. This employee was definitely out of line.

...I think the company is a bit crazy, but more power to em for not being assholes about loitering, if that's the case.

You may want to think that " these things happen to everyone" but in reality they happen a hell of a lot more to minorities due to the sad but true fact that people are often stereotyped as being "suspicious" for being different.

It's died down quite a bit, but it does still exist. Minorities do it to other minorities even.

I live in Texas, I hear a crap ton of open racist remarks people say all the time.

Greeting from California and we hear the same crap, just from different mouths. It's a melting pot and we all hate each other.

I actually have gotten KKK fliers on my door and car while at the market. The KKK and Nazis had an argument about who gets to stage a rally here on the same day.

That's legitimately both groups of idiots being idiots and nobody actually cares about them. Nobody likes actual Nazism and the KKK has such an insignificant amount of members, I can only think of Westboro having fewer. It's so bad, they've recently attempted to say they've 'reformed' and help charities and crap with the donations. The Klan is deader than the Donald is a Cheeto joke.

Hell I even had a door to door salesman actually come into my home and tell a racist joke to my face and act surprised when I threw him out and called his company.

Do you know if his company did anything? I'm curious.

This sadly happens more than I think you want to admit.

Oh I know it still happens. What I take issue with is assuming every incident involving someone with darker skin means someone is racist. Pretty sure it's even been stated up there in this thread or in the Racist thread, that you shouldn't hastily attribute to malice what you can attribute to someone just being an idiot. You can probably agree that it feels like more and more people aren't walking around with a full deck.

I don't think every incident is necessarily racism, but sadly I do live in an area where I hear racial slurs spewed openly at most places while out in public. I actually thought racism was on the decline until recent years and it does very much appear it is on the rise currently, not declining as it had been previously.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/hate-groups-in-the-us-remain-on-the-rise-according-to-new-study/2018/02/21/6d28cbe0-1695-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ef4e7694029

The problem is currently the "alt right" is actively attempting to make racism popular again, and this is why we are seeing more open displays of racist behavior and a rise in membership among hate groups.

Lil devils x:
I don't think every incident is necessarily racism, but sadly I do live in an area where I hear racial slurs spewed openly at most places while out in public. I actually thought racism was on the decline until recent years and it does very much appear it is on the rise currently, not declining as it had been previously.

My take on it? Media fanning flames, and it's disgusting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/hate-groups-in-the-us-remain-on-the-rise-according-to-new-study/2018/02/21/6d28cbe0-1695-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ef4e7694029

I don't really trust the SPLC, but that's probably no surprise and is another mark on me, somewhere.

The problem is currently the "alt right" is actively attempting to make racism popular again, and this is why we are seeing more open displays of racist behavior and a rise in membership among hate groups.

See above that there are a loooot of groups trying to make racism popular again. And Alt-Right isn't much of a descriptor since countless people and groups and organizations have taken the term and made it a doorknob. Every group everywhere is feeding the fire and hoping it'll reach peak. And again, it's entirely disgusting. We(the US) are not even close to truly wanting any kind of conflict, but that doesn't stop people that want blood.

Leg End:

Lil devils x:
I don't think every incident is necessarily racism, but sadly I do live in an area where I hear racial slurs spewed openly at most places while out in public. I actually thought racism was on the decline until recent years and it does very much appear it is on the rise currently, not declining as it had been previously.

My take on it? Media fanning flames, and it's disgusting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/hate-groups-in-the-us-remain-on-the-rise-according-to-new-study/2018/02/21/6d28cbe0-1695-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4ef4e7694029

I don't really trust the SPLC, but that's probably no surprise and is another mark on me, somewhere.

The problem is currently the "alt right" is actively attempting to make racism popular again, and this is why we are seeing more open displays of racist behavior and a rise in membership among hate groups.

See above that there are a loooot of groups trying to make racism popular again. And Alt-Right isn't much of a descriptor since countless people and groups and organizations have taken the term and made it a doorknob. Every group everywhere is feeding the fire and hoping it'll reach peak. And again, it's entirely disgusting. We(the US) are not even close to truly wanting any kind of conflict, but that doesn't stop people that want blood.

I don't think the media is exaggerating though due to what I experience on a daily basis here. I work in healthcare and work with patients daily in the Clinic and when making my rounds at the Hospital. I hear people yelling horribly racist crap all the time at the people here. Hell even when I took my friend to get their driver's license renewed here I heard two men speaking sitting behind me openly talking about how he "avoids having to hire em' n-expletive by only hiring people from his church and never openly advertising job openings". That is the reality I live in where people openly talk about this stuff because it is socially acceptable in this area to do so.

I guess you likely missed the lengthy discussions on here when the Alt right came to fruition and our interactions with them here and on 4chan&8chan. I am discussing the actual alt right that grew from talk radio and shifted to the internet where they exploded their youth recruitment. They would be all the younger guys you saw marching in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us" and spreading hateful shat online. You can usually spot them a mile away due to their use of words such as "red pilled" and "cuck". Many here have had interactions with these guys because of the involvement with the escapist for a time being with the Alt right, and why the whole anti nazi announcement thing when they were bought out happened here to bring back content creators.

More on them here:
https://www.wired.com/story/alt-tech-social-media/
https://www.vox.com/2016/12/31/13869676/social-media-influence-alt-right

Lil devils x:

I don't think the media is exaggerating though due to what I experience on a daily basis here. I work in healthcare and work with patients daily in the Clinic and when making my rounds at the Hospital. I hear people yelling horribly racist crap all the time at the people here. Hell even when I took my friend to get their driver's license renewed here I heard two men speaking sitting behind me openly talking about how he "avoids having to hire em' n-expletive by only hiring people from his church and never openly advertising job openings". That is the reality I live in where people openly talk about this stuff because it is socially acceptable in this area to do so.

You live in a very interesting area.

I guess you likely missed the lengthy discussions on here when the Alt right came to fruition and our interactions with them here and on 4chan&8chan. I am discussing the actual alt right that grew from talk radio and shifted to the internet where they exploded their youth recruitment. They would be all the younger guys you saw marching in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us" and spreading hateful shat online. You can usually spot them a mile away due to their use of words such as "red pilled" and "cuck". Many here have had interactions with these guys because of the involvement with the escapist for a time being with the Alt right, and why the whole anti nazi announcement thing when they were bought out happened here to bring back content creators.

Seems I missed a fair bit in 4 years, but I'm very familiar with imageboards in general and have seen the topics at the time directly, so I have a fair idea of a timeline of events. But this is sounding like when Gamergate apparently exploded on here and I definitely missed that train. It actually sounds like the same event, so this is where I should bow out.

Leg End:

Lil devils x:

I don't think the media is exaggerating though due to what I experience on a daily basis here. I work in healthcare and work with patients daily in the Clinic and when making my rounds at the Hospital. I hear people yelling horribly racist crap all the time at the people here. Hell even when I took my friend to get their driver's license renewed here I heard two men speaking sitting behind me openly talking about how he "avoids having to hire em' n-expletive by only hiring people from his church and never openly advertising job openings". That is the reality I live in where people openly talk about this stuff because it is socially acceptable in this area to do so.

You live in a very interesting area.

I guess you likely missed the lengthy discussions on here when the Alt right came to fruition and our interactions with them here and on 4chan&8chan. I am discussing the actual alt right that grew from talk radio and shifted to the internet where they exploded their youth recruitment. They would be all the younger guys you saw marching in Charlottesville chanting "Jews will not replace us" and spreading hateful shat online. You can usually spot them a mile away due to their use of words such as "red pilled" and "cuck". Many here have had interactions with these guys because of the involvement with the escapist for a time being with the Alt right, and why the whole anti nazi announcement thing when they were bought out happened here to bring back content creators.

Seems I missed a fair bit in 4 years, but I'm very familiar with imageboards in general and have seen the topics at the time directly, so I have a fair idea of a timeline of events. But this is sounding like when Gamergate apparently exploded on here and I definitely missed that train. It actually sounds like the same event, so this is where I should bow out.

This was actually shortly after that, but still many of the same individuals involved as it devolved. I am just thankful the ugliness of it all is past.

Leg End:
I've only ever seen the two officers involved. I'm probably blind though. And I've heard funny things about a dozen squad cars arriving on scene to something that's not even a crime, just because the dispatch was on stupid pills. Maybe they wanted stat padding.

Considering Starbucks corporate, I can't imagine that racial selective service would be anything other than a total outlier. And it's a bit strange sounding to me too, but I've sat in a Denny's for half a day while on a single glass of lemonade, so... euh.

Being straight here, I thought you were having a bit of a laugh with that comment. I didn't know how serious or not you were with it.

Honestly, I'm not sure you even did. I'm willing to admit I've not gotten proper sleep for quite some time and probably read things in ways they weren't meant. Apologies there if so, or even if not.

I've personally seen all kinds of responses to confrontations. There really doesn't seem to be a difference with races involved and idiots in news reports look to be outliers. But that's just me and your mileage will vary.

It never does. And in this case, regardless of the real cause, it's garnered her a lot of support, so she would likely be mentally reinforced regardless if she did do it for racial reasons or if she was just booting freeloaders in her mind.

I don't think anyone at Starbucks really knows what is happening anymore. They probably lost quite a few customers due to the incident, and eventually they'll lose their current ones just due to people moving on. I may have only been inside a Starbucks once(probably), but I've gone through drive-thrus with folks and ordered. Can guarantee that isn't happening ever again with their kneejerk reaction.

I was serious about it being the more important because it affects most people. Truth be told, most people are selfish. They only care about a situation if it affects them. And given that so many people get their coffee from Starbucks, 8000 stores closing one day probably affected millions of people. That makes people take notice.

Kind of like the Kneeling during the national anthem.

I've been counting coats and split the difference. It seems like around 5 cops were called. You under called it, I over called it.

But here's the problem, the innate problem with people calling the cops over every little thing. Which story should any trust? There was an employee at that very Starbucks named Ieshaa Cash who said that the Manager in question had continually issues with Black People.

Cash said she was the only Black employee besides an assistant manager at the Starbucks and she soon felt the wrath of Hylton who cut her pay without explanation, had her demoted from a supervisory position, avoided dealing with Black customers and called the cops often on Black people.

"She always found a reason to kick Black people out, she was way more likely to ask them to leave over white people who hadn?t made a purchase," she said.

And when it came to serving Black customers at the counter, she said Hylton would make them wait and tended attentively to white people first.

"She was cold and standoffish to everyone else and would say 'they can wait'," explained Cash. "She often made the baristas serve them so she wouldn't have to. Holly was very attentive with all the white customers, always making sure they were happy and served quickly," she said.

This now has become not only a two on one account (The woman who shot the video used in the story clearly stated they did nothing wrong to warrant a removal), but now past corroboration.

Now, the natural question is "Well, why did Cash say this? What's her story? How do we know we can trust her?"

That's exactly the point.

If the person calling the police is the first contact, they immediately become the trusted party in terms of a purely human interaction. This person says they need help, I'm here to help, let me go help them. But if people are abusing that system in order to the authorities on their side to tip the scales in their favor, regular normal people who want to handle the situation one on one (like adults) don't have a chance.

As being first contact, it is their story that must be disputed. Anyone can act the victim or legitimately see the issue solely from their perception. Like the little 9 year old boy who had the cops called on him because a woman thought he felt her behind. In her own words "I understand how it looks, but she escalated it and then I lost my temper at her, not at that child."

After she was 'assaulted' (it turned out his backpack just grazed her and he didn't even know she existed), she turns to call out to the family. Gyrating in front of a little boy and girl out of the outrage of what happened to her.

Now, shocker, I'm actually inclined to believe her. I do believe she lost her tempered and acted from that. But she's also lying. She called the cops and the reason she gave is that a child sexually assaulted her. She didn't mention the mother and that was the cause of her call. She said she was sexually assaulted by a child.

Given the current climate of how police have been acting with certain groups, calling the cops on someone because you're displeased or suspicious is tantamount to going into a situation with a gun locked and loaded. More over the fact of just being frustrated that we can't live without having the police involved, every small thing can escalate to a life or death situation just with the involvement of police. And that's just inexcusable.

Lil devils x:

ObsidianJones:
Lastly, many jobs will fire you if they find out you've been arrested. If one side is willing to risk that outcome for the other, I'm not losing any sleep if they themselves end up get bitten by said actions. That being said, I don't think that's the right move. I think learning doesn't begin with expulsion.

I hundred percent know her firing was a PR move, but it was a dumb one. To show growth, you need to have those who were involved actually show the growth. Not a new spokesmodel who has no idea of what's happening.

I disagree that they should not be fired. The problem is if they are racist and will continue to be racist, and their job requires they deal with other races, that has a direct impact on the employer by keeping them. They have to want to learn on their own, you have no control over whether they actually do. This is why it is important we do not have racists in positions where they can actively harm others, such as Law enforcement, immigration department, teachers, healthcare, or even making your food. The problem with allowing them to continue to work in fields where they can harm people is that they will actually harm people and we really cannot take that risk.

If they are harmful to the people they serve, their peers, or their company, they should not be in that job in the first place.

I make no illusions that everyone will like me, nor everyone should like me. There are plenty of reasons that someone will dislike me. And I can't control any of them.

However, we might be in the same place. We might have to even deal with each other occasionally. And I want them to deal with me in the most professional way possible. People have to learn to deal with their biases to interact and function in this society. They don't have to like my skin color. They can go home and call me names and hate the fact that they were even in the same room as me. But as long as we get our business done to mutual financial satisfaction and/or sate our responsibilities in a task, I couldn't care less about how they think of me.

You and I both know that the new Alt-Right is gaining power over a manifested Victimhood. We've seen comments here on this forum that "It's ok to be white!" when no one is saying that it isn't ok in the first place. Unless they honestly see being bigoted and prejudiced as actual cornerstones of White Identity. Then that's an entire conversation.

But with every case of this, they have one more bullet to aim and fire, saying "This is how they attack you. Either you serve them or lose your livelihood".

In firing them, we coddle them. We give them the separation they want. And not only that, we give them absolute proof that the government is 'siding with them over us' and making more of these whackos.

They have to be apart of this world. They have to deal with the realities of it. And so do the rest of us.

Lil devils x:
I don't think the media is exaggerating though due to what I experience on a daily basis here. I work in healthcare and work with patients daily in the Clinic and when making my rounds at the Hospital. I hear people yelling horribly racist crap all the time at the people here. Hell even when I took my friend to get their driver's license renewed here I heard two men speaking sitting behind me openly talking about how he "avoids having to hire em' n-expletive by only hiring people from his church and never openly advertising job openings". That is the reality I live in where people openly talk about this stuff because it is socially acceptable in this area to do so.

I'll give you 7 to 1 odds that those same two guys, when they complain about black people, say how they hate them because they as white people have to pay for blacks through welfare when they should just go get a job.

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