Existing While Black: A Growing Concern

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trunkage:
Capitalism has two advantage. It tends to spread out the killings so no one person can get blame for it, like we can blame Hitler or Mao AND have they have an institution (corporations and its structure) where if a company kills thousands of people, no one at the company gets jailed. I mean, Thalidomide killed 5000 kids and NO ONE WENT TO JAIL. Sure, the company had to pay compensation, but a lot of those compensation lead to not guilty verdict. And I can bet that those compensations didn't come out of any senior executives pockets. Capitalism: putting prices on babies so your free to kill them.

Noam Chomsky pointed this out in his rebuke of the Black Book of Communism. The short of it was that Chomsky pointed out that Capitalism has been much better at obfuscating the number of people that died because of it, since those deaths are rarely direct in the same way that a pogrom, ethnic cleansing or starvation is. Chomsky highlighted that the mortality rate in capitalistic India is higher than in communist China, to a degree of roughly 4 million people more in India per year. This increased mortality rate Chomsky attributes to the more unequal distribution of food, medicine and healthcare in India compared to China. His conclusion? "suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone."

The great sleight of hand of Capitalism is that all the people it kills are not killed by ideologues in the name of some great vision in great numbers in specific places. The people it kills die every hour of every day all over the world in workplace accidents, of poor healthcare, starvation and crime, but since these people die because of the systems inherent unequal distribution of resources and isn't traceable to a single ideologues decisions, they get overlooked and forgotten.

Gethsemani:

trunkage:
Capitalism has two advantage. It tends to spread out the killings so no one person can get blame for it, like we can blame Hitler or Mao AND have they have an institution (corporations and its structure) where if a company kills thousands of people, no one at the company gets jailed. I mean, Thalidomide killed 5000 kids and NO ONE WENT TO JAIL. Sure, the company had to pay compensation, but a lot of those compensation lead to not guilty verdict. And I can bet that those compensations didn't come out of any senior executives pockets. Capitalism: putting prices on babies so your free to kill them.

Noam Chomsky pointed this out in his rebuke of the Black Book of Communism. The short of it was that Chomsky pointed out that Capitalism has been much better at obfuscating the number of people that died because of it, since those deaths are rarely direct in the same way that a pogrom, ethnic cleansing or starvation is. Chomsky highlighted that the mortality rate in capitalistic India is higher than in communist China, to a degree of roughly 4 million people more in India per year. This increased mortality rate Chomsky attributes to the more unequal distribution of food, medicine and healthcare in India compared to China. His conclusion? "suppose we now apply the methodology of the Black Book and its reviewers to the full story, not just the doctrinally acceptable half. We therefore conclude that in India the democratic capitalist "experiment" since 1947 has caused more deaths than in the entire history of the "colossal, wholly failed...experiment" of Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, tens of millions more since, in India alone."

The great sleight of hand of Capitalism is that all the people it kills are not killed by ideologues in the name of some great vision in great numbers in specific places. The people it kills die every hour of every day all over the world in workplace accidents, of poor healthcare, starvation and crime, but since these people die because of the systems inherent unequal distribution of resources and isn't traceable to a single ideologues decisions, they get overlooked and forgotten.

I think we forgot another reason, one that I hear all the time.
"That's not real Capitalism." It also gets applied when the US goes to war over resources or blood diamonds or pointing out why economies arent growing in Africa

Lil devils x:
This is not actually true. Yes, there are still people alive who have owned slaves. Yes there are still people alive who participate in illegal slavery in the US. Yes there are still people alive who were prevented from attending school as children due to racial violence. Yes there are still people today that were affected by these things being carried out against their families.

Sadly, in the US, Not everywhere progressed as other areas. When slaves were freed, they were left with nothing, not even the family structure to rebuild their families and many of their families still are suffering in poverty even now due to this. Some areas took a very long time and have still never recovered. I do not think you understand the full scope of this. I don't think many understand until they see things for themselves first hand. When I bartended in college, the Beach Club I worked at used to be a plantation. Not too far from that plantation still exists run down "shanty town" where a large portion of the areas black population STILL reside. This is very common in the south. Who exactly actually showed up to help them rebuild their families?

Who exactly here has demonized anyone btw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H8d7IMkRFs
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218681600.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bda92e9af5ec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa
http://blackyouthproject.com/black-people-held-slavery-deep-south-late-1960s/
https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/mississippi-officially-abolishes-slavery-ratifies-13th-amendment/
https://www.newsweek.com/2018/03/30/school-segregation-america-today-bad-1960-855256.html
https://www.vox.com/2018/3/5/17080218/school-segregation-getting-worse-data
\
You treat this like it is some distant memory. That is not the case.

I'm not sure what your point is. You're talking about crimes. As you said, slavery is illegal in the U.S. So is rape and murder. But sure, rape and murder still take place. And those who get caught go to prison. The police do the best they can, but they don't catch them all. What is the color of the U.S. on that Washington Post article map? It's the lightest color, meaning slavery is extremely rare here, just like rape and murder.

What does that have to do with my main point that we didn't put black people in the situation they are currently in. They were already there when all living white people were born.

I'm also not sure what you mean by rebuild their families. You rebuild a family by having kids, becoming parents, and then your kids have kids, etc. Yes, when they were freed, 150 years ago, they were turned loose into the world with nothing. Tens of millions of people in the U.S., of all races, start life with nothing. It sucks. But you have to go out and work like everyone else and scrounge out a living. It's really your only option, and we all have to do it.

Yes, I've seen rural shanty towns. I'm sure it sucks to be born into that life, just like it sucks to be born into an inner city ghetto. I would love to see the lives of those people improved, and I think most people feel the same. But it's easier said than done, and I think it starts with education. But that's a two-way street. Yes, better education needs to be made available to them, but they need to do their part and take of advantage of it, too. It's a difficult and complicated issue. What is your solution? And I'm talking about a real solution, not just getting on the internet and complaining about "rampant" racism, because that's not helping anything.

Kerg3927:

Saelune:
Good thing straight white males as a group are not being demonized. Organizations and groupings of straight white males are, such as a majority of the Republican party, the NRA, MRAs, Neo-nazis, and the KKK.

People still live today who were alive during segregation. And anyone who has pride in the confederate flag has pride in slavery.

Plenty of straight men who are abused cause of the color of their skin. Plenty of white men who are abused because of their sexuality, but they are excluded when straight white men convene for their own pity party against everyone else.

To those with privilege, equality feels like oppression.

Yeah, and this post is a prime example of the main point I was trying to make in this thread. You do a disservice to your cause. You are actively sabotaging it and moving things in a backwards direction, because when you exaggerate and attack those you deem "privileged," you immediately lose all credibility and piss off those who don't think they are personally doing anything wrong. If the left ever wants to make progress, they need to denounce hateful attitudes like this and sit down and talk about solutions to these problems in practical terms.

I'm not some right-winger on here butting heads with the left. I am a moderate leftist giving my opinion to the far left about how they are going about things entirely wrong, to the detriment of what they claim to be fighting for.

You'd think that, but you'd be wrong. The only people who think I am making my side look bad are the people who already hate my side. When right-wing extremism is your baseline, then 'moderates' are right-wing.

Kerg3927:

Lil devils x:
This is not actually true. Yes, there are still people alive who have owned slaves. Yes there are still people alive who participate in illegal slavery in the US. Yes there are still people alive who were prevented from attending school as children due to racial violence. Yes there are still people today that were affected by these things being carried out against their families.

Sadly, in the US, Not everywhere progressed as other areas. When slaves were freed, they were left with nothing, not even the family structure to rebuild their families and many of their families still are suffering in poverty even now due to this. Some areas took a very long time and have still never recovered. I do not think you understand the full scope of this. I don't think many understand until they see things for themselves first hand. When I bartended in college, the Beach Club I worked at used to be a plantation. Not too far from that plantation still exists run down "shanty town" where a large portion of the areas black population STILL reside. This is very common in the south. Who exactly actually showed up to help them rebuild their families?

Who exactly here has demonized anyone btw?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H8d7IMkRFs
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218681600.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/17/this-map-shows-where-the-worlds-30-million-slaves-live-there-are-60000-in-the-u-s/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bda92e9af5ec
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Africa
http://blackyouthproject.com/black-people-held-slavery-deep-south-late-1960s/
https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/mississippi-officially-abolishes-slavery-ratifies-13th-amendment/
https://www.newsweek.com/2018/03/30/school-segregation-america-today-bad-1960-855256.html
https://www.vox.com/2018/3/5/17080218/school-segregation-getting-worse-data
\
You treat this like it is some distant memory. That is not the case.

I'm not sure what your point is. You're talking about crimes. As you said, slavery is illegal in the U.S. So is rape and murder. But sure, rape and murder still take place. And those who get caught go to prison. The police do the best they can, but they don't catch them all. What is the color of the U.S. on that Washington Post article map? It's the lightest color, meaning slavery is extremely rare here, just like rape and murder.

What does that have to do with my main point that we didn't put black people in the situation they are currently in. They were already there when all living white people were born.

I'm also not sure what you mean by rebuild their families. You rebuild a family by having kids, becoming parents, and then your kids have kids, etc. Yes, when they were freed, 150 years ago, they were turned loose into the world with nothing. Tens of millions of people in the U.S., of all races, start life with nothing. It sucks. But you have to go out and work like everyone else and scrounge out a living. It's really your only option, and we all have to do it.

Yes, I've seen rural shanty towns. I'm sure it sucks to be born into that life, just like it sucks to be born into an inner city ghetto. I would love to see the lives of those people improved, and I think most people feel the same. But it's easier said than done, and I think it starts with education. But that's a two-way street. Yes, better education needs to be made available to them, but they need to do their part and take of advantage of it, too. It's a difficult and complicated issue. What is your solution? And I'm talking about a real solution, not just getting on the internet and complaining about "rampant" racism, because that's not helping anything.

My point is that we still have problems that need to be addressed rather than pretend like this was something that happened a long time past and is no longer " our problem" as a society, when it is.

Broken families meaning they were kidnapped, traumatized, abused, beaten, drugged, starved, suffering from PTSD and never received any help so they repeat the cycle of abuse and violence that was perpetrated against them for generations now. They need a great deal of help to change these things, not just put it out there and expect them to be able to be anywhere near a point where they are going to be able to " take advantage" of anything and it is ignorant of the actual situations to suggest they can. Many do not have family units, or have any of the same priorities because all of that was stripped from them through cycles of abuse. Just " jailing" the rapist and abusers isn't solving the problem long term. The child who was raped often turns into the rapist. The abused child often becomes an abuser. You have to address the cycle of abuse itself and rebuild.

You are incorrect. It does not actually start with education, it starts with addressing poverty, providing SAFETY, providing proper nutrition, shelter, medical attention, mental health, drug rehabilitation, and life long help to rebuild what has been broken . Once they have the basic necessities you move on to education and it is not a matter of providing education and expect people to be able to compete at the same level when they are not coming from the same starting point. If you have parents who were never educated, how can they provide the support structures needed to help a child succeed? How can they help them with their homework or even know what they need to be able to do their homework or understand what help they need or even see that as a priority when they are in the middle of a crisis? You have to understand that when people are in crisis, they are not going to be able to sit down and do their homework, or even make it to school on time. That is not how this works. They currently do not even have the stability to do that in many areas. In addition to that, you are STILL having to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis in terms of racism.

Yes, we have classism issues, but when you have racism+ classism, it is so much more. Here is the problem with your " all lives matter" approach, is that for the longest time now, all lives mattered EXCEPT black lives. They have NEVER mattered the same, that is why they are having to point it out now. People keep turning a blind eye to it and that is why it is as bad as it is still even now. I am telling you racism is rampant because IT IS. You are trying to claim all these other issues are the only problem here, when they are intersectional problems, but do not change the fact that the racism itself is a problem as well and should be addressed.

You act like I want racism to be rampant, I don't that is why I am saying this needs to be addressed. You OTOH are trying to make out that racism is not the problem with how this is the way it is now since poverty can happen to anyone, but in reality we have race induced poverty in addition to poverty that came about by other means on a large scale.

You say you are offering a solution, but your solution will not even remotely put a dent into the problem. My solution is to actually address the core of the problems and provide the actual help the people need long term . You cannot even provide them safety to begin until you address racism.

" you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is WRONG. When the horse is too sick to drink, you start an IV and nurse it back to health until it is able to drink again. There is a huge difference in the approach, and outcome.

EDIT: In case you missed it, I do not just sit here on the internet and rant about racism. I work in Pediatric Medicine, in addition to the Pediatric Clinic here, I also work at the largest public hospital system in the DFW metroplex, we receive patients from all over the world. I also volunteer at the free clinic here, battered women's and children's shelter, Ruth's House, MSF, and have traveled extensively both in the US and abroad dealing with these issues first hand. You really should stop making assumptions about people. This is something I see all the time, not just here and there. It is a problem. What are you doing about it besides trying to tell people it isn't a problem that needs to be addressed?

ObsidianJones:
So, at times like these, we should rely on impartial third parties. Such as the FBI, who say for the third consecutive year, Hate Crimes are on the rise.

The FBI gets nothing out of reporting these things. Especially with a Government that cut funding towards fighting groups like the KKK and enforcing Civil Rights. So if they notice an uptick, I'm going to say it's more than just simply conjecture.

17% sounds like a crisis, right? In one year? But then I see that we're talking about 7,100 crimes total, for the whole country, in a whole year. Out of 325,000,000 people, it increased by like a 1,000, or an average of 20 more per state. That's a really tiny number relatively. 7,100/325,000,000 is like 0.02%. I'd say that's pretty damn good. So my reaction to that article is not outrage or impending crisis. Instead, my initial take is that there seems to be very little hate crime going on in this country, thankfully. Even with my supposedly optimistic outlook, I would've thought it would have been much higher.

And maybe it is higher. Reading further, the article seems to indicate that the hate crime numbers are very suspect overall, so who knows what the actual figures are?

Anyway, by comparison, overall in 2016 there were about 17,000 murders, 226,000 rapes, 332,000 robberies, and 803,000 aggravated assaults. The violent crime rate went up by about 3% from the prior year, but it is almost half what it was in the 1990's, which is great. Huge progress has been made in that area in the U.S.

ObsidianJones:
To the black people are poor and saty poor because of continuing systemic racism, that's true. U.S. Commission on Civil Rights published their findings that education where minorities are present are still underfunded. Hell, the often-quoted den of evil and villiany Chicago sued the state because of underfunding minority education. A Judge tossed the lawsuit, not because he found it wrong, but in his own words:

"The Court is not oblivious to the fiscal challenges confronting CPS," Valderrama wrote in his opinion. "To say that the State's current scheme of funding public education is broken is to state the obvious. Plaintiffs' Complaint, however, as constituted is not the vehicle to redress this inequity"

Simply put, The judge knows that they are right, but the problem outreaches the courts' ability to do anything about it.

But that's not racism. That's purely a class issue. I think the two things are often confused. Schools are funded by property taxes. People who live in poorer neighborhoods don't pay as much in taxes, and thus don't get as much money to spend on education.
Yeah, on average, more black people tend to live in those poorer neighborhoods than in the richer neighborhoods, but that's simply because the majority of black people are not wealthy enough. Again, a class issue.

Now if you want to say that the system is unfair because the tax dollars should be more evenly distributed among the districts, then I'd totally agree with you. It is unfair. But again, that's not racism. It's purely a rich vs. poor issue. And poor white people living in poorer neighborhoods are affected exactly the same as their black counterparts, because it's all about property values.

ObsidianJones:
Multiple studies show that if you have an ethnic name, you probably won't get a job. For a good deal of minorities, they are damned. From education to just finding a job, they are stuck. And it is due in no small part to racist or prejudiced ideas. It's sad that white people feel guilty about that, but it's even sadder that not only can minorities barely get out of the situation, but will be considered an evil and/or violent race if they need to do criminal stuff to survive.

That's not what the article says. It doesn't say they "probably won't get a job." It says that on average, white applicants received 36% more call backs.

I think the hiring process is an area where the impact of bias rears its head the most. The person hiring doesn't know the person applying, just what's on that piece of paper. So he has to make assumptions based upon what little information is available. And unfortunately, I think there is a stigma with some people that black people are poorly educated and unsophisticated and sometimes struggle in the workplace because of that. Is it racism? Yeah, I guess it is. But I don't think it's necessarily done out of malevolence. It's just bias. Stereotyping. But everyone has biases. Most people stereotype people they don't know to some degree, even when they try not to. Like that article I linked earlier. This is just another one on the list, no different than the others.

I think the only way for black people to break the stereotypes is for more of them to stop behaving like the stereotype suggests, i.e. they need to become better educated and more sophisticated than they have been in the past, and then they'll be stereotyped in a better way. Again, education is the key to everything for them. And I'm all for helping them accomplish that.

ObsidianJones:
And to the privilege issue? That's a definition problem, not perception.

Take a case of a man getting shot but having the bullet miss all the internal organs. Full recovery. No issues. That man is lucky.

Take the same case, but the bullet misses him. The man is still lucky.

You take privilege to mean one thing. And if it doesn't meet your criteria, everyone is wrong. That is not reality. Privilege doesn't mean you all have mansions. It means white people have infinitely more chances than minorities. Privilege means that no matter how many white people crash the economy, vote against the environment, become active shooters, or what have you... there is no monolith.

I would disagree with "infinitely." But of course you're stereotyping white people and treating them all the same, like the person doing the hiring in the previous section. You don't consider the poor white trash kid in the trailer park with the single mom hooked on meth, teeth falling out. In your eyes, that person is the same as Donald Trump. He's just white.

ObsidianJones:
No one will fear a white person walking into the restaurant, pulling their children down for fear of that gun coming out and shooting up the place. Even though statistically, if it were to happen it would be a white man walking in. But a white male doesn't have that pinned on their chest. A black man, however, has to carry every news story, every wife's tale, and all of media around them like an anchor around their neck.

Again, the only way to change the stereotypes is for black people to quit living up to the stereotypes. Better education, which the government can certainly help with. Less gang violence.

ObsidianJones:
Minorities do not have the same privilege of being an individual like a white person has.

Another blanket statement stereotyping all whites.

ObsidianJones:
Also, White people have the privilege to ignore. It's not happening to them, so it's not a problem. As long as the education is fine for their children, education is fine for every child. As long as the police treat them correctly, the police are an innocent and upstanding organization. As long as there aren't groups gunning for them, there are no problems.

And another. Assuming all whites have good education. Assuming all whites are treated well by the police. I was kind of on your side with the hiring thing. It sucks that blacks are stereotyped. But now I see that you are probably more guilty of stereotyping than most of those people looking at resumes. How can you possibly ask that people be better in this area if you're going to make absolutely zero effort to be better yourself? Suggestion... maybe try to lead by example?

ObsidianJones:
I can't ignore if someone wants to call the cops on me because I'm a scary minority. Lil Devils X can't ignore if a guy decides he doesn't have to respect her as a woman. All of my transgendered, gay, and queer people in this forum can't just ignore if groups of people band together to strip them of their rights and even worse. We don't have that privilege.

And how do you suggest we make these issues go away? Yeah, it's not your fault if you get stereotyped as a gang member. It's actual black gang members who are to blame, because they create the stereotype. If Lil Devils X doesn't get respected as a woman, then she needs to tell the person who disrespected her to fuck off or call the police if it's bad enough. Transgendered/gay rights will be solved by better legislation, but not overnight. So get out there and campaign if you want to speed up the process. There are challenges in life for everyone, you just have to deal with them the best you can.

ObsidianJones:
Probably most importantly, White people have the privilege of power. If all of white people voted a single way, that gets done. No minority can say the same. That is a privilege that it's a slap in the face to pretend that isn't game changing in all levels. Whites only have that. That's more important than millions of dollars, because if you get enough of the same voices together, you control what happens to Millions of dollars .

Except that white people are competing against each other as much as with anyone else, and they don't all agree on, well, anything. But lets just say that they did one day all suddenly agree on something, and voted a single way and got something done, to the detriment of minorities... the only way to stop that is to slaughter a couple of hundred million white people and make your own race the majority. So what exactly is your point? SOME race will always be the majority and others the minority, in any group, in any country. Crying about your race being outnumbered is utterly pointless. It's like complaining about the weather.

ObsidianJones:
Lastly, a white person has the luxury of defining situations and having it stick. Many people have said what I said. Not that it's about being rich and well off, but not having to deal with what minorities have to deal with all the time. White people for the most part have the privilege of definition. BLM started with one simple goal: Arrest blacks if you have to, but don't instantly 'solve' the situation with a trigger pull.

Or, as they say.

We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.

We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.

Then white people got together and said "...Nah, they don't mean that. They want to overthrow the police." Minorities can't even have their beliefs be defined by themselves. They have to have white people accept it. And if white people don't, they get another definition put to them.

That's how Black Lives Matter went from a voice trying to fight that we're not killed within two seconds of police rolling up on the scene to Extremist Group.

And really, is such a thing extreme? Or is it sad that in this day and age, we need a group fighting for such a basic right?

Which white people did this? All of them? I didn't. I don't know any other white people who did this.

ObsidianJones:

Right. Indiscriminate racism and hate should not be countered by indiscriminate racism and hate in the other direction. All that does is divide and polarize us, while nothing gets done to actually help the real problems.

And you're right. But pointing things out isn't indiscriminate racism or hate. That's like if a Arsonist gets caught, brought to jail, and his defense isn't that he didn't do it, but it's because he's fat that he's being discriminated against.

There's racism. Our own government reports on it. Turning a blind eye to it because one doesn't want to see it doesn't make it better. In fact, it makes it worse. It gives people carte blanche to continue with what they are doing, because no one is speaking out about it. If you don't see it, again, I can't convince you to change your perception.

But likewise, given that a vast majority of people here not only see it, but feel it in our daily lives... It's quite unfair for you to ask us to change our perception to yours while still suffering the affects, no?

I never said there wasn't racism in the world. I'm just saying that it's my perception that it is less prevalent in the U.S. than some people in this thread seem to perceive. In my opinion. I also believe that a lot of class inequalities get mislabeled as racism, like the school funding issue discussed above.

And when I say "indiscriminate racism" I'm talking about exactly what you did throughout this post. Stereotyping white people as all being the same. It hurts your cause. It pisses people off. It makes you look like a hypocrite and destroys your credibility. If you want to truly fight for your cause and truly win people over and better your situation, you would be a lot more successful if you stopped referring to white people in blanket statements. It's racist. If I could just make one point in this thread, that would be it. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you.

trunkage:
I mean, Thalidomide killed 5000 kids and NO ONE WENT TO JAIL.

And that's possibly not the injustice you may think.

The clinical trials process significantly less rigorous in the 1950s, but it remains the case even today that teratogenicity is very hard to investigate because experimenting on pregnant women is ethically extremely difficult. Of course, thalidomide did a lot to cause regulatory agencies to toughen up procedures subsequently. Nevertheless, even to this day, the teratogenicity of many drugs is basically unknown at the point of approval, and it's often only by experiencing the worst we find out about numerous severe side effects.

There doesn't appear to have been negligence, incompetence, fraud, or significant attempts by the company to obfuscate the evidence of harm once it came to light. As tragic as it is, I am far from convinced a homicide conviction would be appropriate.

There's a much stronger case for other controversial drugs such as valproate, refecoxib, etc. where there is evidence of suppression of full disclosure of harm, or of course also tobacco smoke, although most of the guilty parties from tobacco companies are long since dead of old age.

trunkage:
Here's some food for thought. Tsar Nicholas II executed over a million people in the decade leading to the first Revolution. The Gulags were just as bad as after the Revolution but I have no nunbers on actual deaths. Similarly he cared not one whit about his people and they starved. But the Revolution covered his tracks. He carelessly wasted his people during WW1 and if not for either Revolution, he might have been worse than Stalin.

Dictators doing as dictators do. I'm not saying it was great before. His poor leadership and brutal methods, put into the pressure cooker of WW1 is what gave Lenin's revolution fertile ground. The people were unhappy with the war and many were starving. The Bolsheviks came in and garnered support with a simple catch phrase, "Peace, Land, and Bread," and the largely illiterate population said fuck yeah, sounds good to me, and backed them. But they would have been better off going from the monarchy to a Western-style democracy.

trunkage:
Marx was always worried about Communism in Russia, thinking that should be the last place it should sprout. And this is not to justify Stalin or any mass murderer. Leopold is just as bad as Victoria who is just as bad as Nixon. Once you're responsible for millions of death, it doesnt matter what your crappy politics is. You've taken it further than any reasonable person could.

From what I remember, Marx believed that industrialization and urbanization had to take place first, and Russia was mostly a backwoods agrarian country at the time. Lenin recognized this, and so he and his successors forcibly sped up industrialization, at great human cost. It contributed to the catastrophic peasant famines which killed millions, because they prioritized shipping grain and other resources from the countryside to the cities from people who were already starving. And they were starving because they had murdered or imprisoned all of the best farmers, the kulaks, who owned the larger farms, and because forced collective farms were very inefficient.

Of course, ironically, if they hadn't brutally forced their country into hyper-accelerated industrialization, they may not have been in a position to resist Hitler's invasion in WW2 a couple of decades later. The Nazis may have rolled over them and taken over. Maybe to stop Hitler, the world needed a dicatatorship in Russia that was just as brutal. I think 7 of 8 casualties in WW2 took place on the Eastern Front?

trunkage:
Edit: I'm currently more worried about fascist wearing swastikas. Becuase I dont see to many people waving a hammer and sickle. Most Lefties realise the Soviet system was bad. Far too many on Right haven't learnt that Nazis are bad. When the hammer and sickle comes out, I'll back you. Until then, I'll focus on literal Nazis

I disagree. I don't think literal nazis have any power whatsoever. I think most people see them as buffoons and outcasts. Are there any nazis holding office in Western countries? I don't think so. No, it's just handfuls of skinheads here and there protesting and getting jeered at by everyone else. You have white supremacist gangs in the prison system, but they're not running for office, either. They're just murdering members of rival gangs and cooking up and selling meth to enrich themselves.

Meanwhile the Democratic Socialists of America, which has a stated goal of abolishing private property and introducing a government controlled planned economy, has like 30-40 members currently holding public office in the U.S. They say they are different than Soviet-style communists, but they draw most of their ideology straight from Marx.

Lil devils x:
No kidding.. It isn't like The Soviets were even using actual communism anyhow as they still hoarded the wealth at the top and let the people starve. That is by no means " divided equally or by need" and in no way was for the benefit of the people and their future. The only actual communist systems I am aware of are tribal systems, and yea they have actually worked well, even the leaders had the same share as everyone else rather than take more for themselves. The whole idea of hoarding shat and killing off the people has nothing to do with communism, it is corruption, which is happening rampantly in capitalist societies as well. more have been killed by capitalism than by any other means. Invading, slaughtering, pillaging and enslaving Africa, Australia, and the Americas was all a capitalist venture. The ranch wars in the US, range wars, railroad wars, Mob boss gangster blood baths.. The US has a long trail of blood in the name of capitalism. There has never been free market capitalism, it is a lie. The government has always been controlled by one side or the other and determines the winners and losers. They killed people took their lands if they did not agree to move off them or give them to them. Sadly, this really never fully ended either, we had a corrupt DA here who was jailing people to take their land as well here got a slap on the wrist for a lesser offense and was out of jail in no time no that long ago. When you let capitalists run the country, they wield it as a weapon the same as any other corrupt government does to fatten their own pockets.

I'm well aware of the flaws of capitalism, but it's the best we've got. Corruption is going to be present in any system. We are afterall humans, and humans are greedy and selfish creatures.

Most of the violence you describe is from a different era. Yes, some bad shit still goes on today, bombings and drone strikes with civilian collateral damage, etc. But it's a violent world out there, and violence still has to be countered by violence of our own. It would be awesome if we could solve international disputes with conversation but it just doesn't work that way except in the minds of naive ideologues.

At least our system does have some checks and balances to curb the worst abuses of power, better than any system that has come before it, and we do have a ton of freedoms that many other countries don't have. I mean, we've got frickin' Donald Trump in the White House, and the media and everyone else is free to bash him daily without anyone disappearing in the middle of night. I call that a win. And I'm not enthusiastic about trading our system for something that would most likely be far worse.

It would be great if something like socialism/communism worked, if there were no poor people and everyone was happy. But selfish people (everyone) are not going to give up what they have without being forced or brainwashed, and the only way to do that is by concentrating even more power into even fewer hands, which always leads even worse corruption, and the taking away of current freedoms many people take for granted.

Lil devils x:
When 2/3rds of terrorism in the US is by right wing extremists, it is a bit asinine to be worried about the left trying to give everyone healthcare and feed and house the poor getting "out of hand".

Everyone having food, housing, and healthcare is a great goal, and it's the traditional wheelhouse of the left. They should stick to it. The problems come when they go beyond that, arguing for equality of outcomes for everyone in every way, while trying their best to start a race war.

Lil devils x:
My point is that we still have problems that need to be addressed rather than pretend like this was something that happened a long time past and is no longer " our problem" as a society, when it is.

I agree that there are still problems. There always will be. I'm just saying that exaggerating them ruins your credibility and hurts your cause. Of course, that all comes back to perception.

Lil devils x:
Broken families meaning they were kidnapped, traumatized, abused, beaten, drugged, starved, suffering from PTSD and never received any help so they repeat the cycle of abuse and violence that was perpetrated against them for generations now. They need a great deal of help to change these things, not just put it out there and expect them to be able to be anywhere near a point where they are going to be able to " take advantage" of anything and it is ignorant of the actual situations to suggest they can. Many do not have family units, or have any of the same priorities because all of that was stripped from them through cycles of abuse. Just " jailing" the rapist and abusers isn't solving the problem long term. The child who was raped often turns into the rapist. The abused child often becomes an abuser. You have to address the cycle of abuse itself and rebuild.

You are incorrect. It does not actually start with education, it starts with addressing poverty, providing SAFETY, providing proper nutrition, shelter, medical attention, mental health, drug rehabilitation, and life long help to rebuild what has been broken . Once they have the basic necessities you move on to education and it is not a matter of providing education and expect people to be able to compete at the same level when they are not coming from the same starting point. If you have parents who were never educated, how can they provide the support structures needed to help a child succeed? How can they help them with their homework or even know what they need to be able to do their homework or understand what help they need or even see that as a priority when they are in the middle of a crisis? You have to understand that when people are in crisis, they are not going to be able to sit down and do their homework, or even make it to school on time. That is not how this works. They currently do not even have the stability to do that in many areas. In addition to that, you are STILL having to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis in terms of racism.

So how about we hand each one of them a million dollars? That would probably be cheaper than what you are proposing. How do we help them realistically? I also think you belittle them. They are not as broken as you believe. If I were black, and reading that, I'd be really offended at someone describing me as such.

As for poverty, I agree. But we have food stamps for that, right? Safety, we try that by sending cops into their neighborhoods, and then the cops get villainized for being there. The problem is the drug war. Maybe if we legalized drugs it would remove the profit incentive for gangs, which would lessen the violence, and then we could put the increased tax revenue toward drug counseling and rehab.

But life long help? These are proud black people. To me that is insulting to them. Once they reach a level of stability, they should be able to make it on their own like everyone else, unless you think they are inferior to everyone else?

Lil devils x:
Yes, we have classism issues, but when you have racism+ classism, it is so much more. Here is the problem with your " all lives matter" approach, is that for the longest time now, all lives mattered EXCEPT black lives. They have NEVER mattered the same, that is why they are having to point it out now. People keep turning a blind eye to it and that is why it is as bad as it is still even now. I am telling you racism is rampant because IT IS. You are trying to claim all these other issues are the only problem here, when they are intersectional problems, but do not change the fact that the racism itself is a problem as well and should be addressed.

Let me ask you this. Say a blind poll was taken of all white people in the U.S. asking, "Are you happy that so many black people live in such poor conditions?" What do you think the answer would be? 10% yes? 50%? I think it would be less than 5%.

But I admit there is some racism. There always will be. A lot of people are ignorant and stupid. But how would you address it? Again, getting on the internet and bitching about it is not accomplishing anything, and if you get indiscriminately accusatory (by saying racist things about all white people), I think it creates more racism, because there is a backlash from people who feel that they are unfairly under attack.

Lil devils x:
You act like I want racism to be rampant, I don't that is why I am saying this needs to be addressed. You OTOH are trying to make out that racism is not the problem with how this is the way it is now since poverty can happen to anyone, but in reality we have race induced poverty in addition to poverty that came about by other means on a large scale.

You say you are offering a solution, but your solution will not even remotely put a dent into the problem. My solution is to actually address the core of the problems and provide the actual help the people need long term . You cannot even provide them safety to begin until you address racism.

Racism is not the cause of their safety concerns. Most violence against black people is from other black people. As I said above, it's the drug/gang violence that needs to be addressed in order to make them safer.

Lil devils x:
" you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is WRONG. When the horse is too sick to drink, you start an IV and nurse it back to health until it is able to drink again. There is a huge difference in the approach, and outcome.

But at some point, they have to drink.

Lil devils x:
EDIT: In case you missed it, I do not just sit here on the internet and rant about racism. I work in Pediatric Medicine, in addition to the Pediatric Clinic here, I also work at the largest public hospital system in the DFW metroplex, we receive patients from all over the world. I also volunteer at the free clinic here, battered women's and children's shelter, Ruth's House, MSF, and have traveled extensively both in the US and abroad dealing with these issues first hand. You really should stop making assumptions about people. This is something I see all the time, not just here and there. It is a problem. What are you doing about it besides trying to tell people it isn't a problem that needs to be addressed?

Again my main point of all of this is say that if people are going to discuss it, they shouldn't exaggerate, because they lose all credibility and it creates the opposite effect intended when people call bullshit. And they shouldn't make racist blanket statements against white people, because it also does more harm than good, creating a backlash from people who feel like they are unjustly under attack.

Kerg3927:
Again, getting on the internet and bitching about it is not accomplishing anything, and if you get indiscriminately accusatory (by saying racist things about all white people)

Yeah, I noted this accusation you levelled at ObsidianJones, and I don't think it holds any substantial weight. It looks for all the world like a cheap counter-accusation that is both unconstructive, and even worse potentially indicative of no desire to be constructive. Particularly wince-inducing with regard to this is saying it's not your perception that there's much racism in the USA... Might I hazard a guess you're not a member of a demographic group and social milieu very likely to experience it? Isn't that potentially what ObsidianJones means when he says whites may feel much less need to do anything about it?

We all make generalisations which are ultimately reasonable, you did yourself did when you said things like that black people need to behave better to not be stereotyped. You clearly seem to think other people should engage with your generalisations constructively, so you need to do the same to theirs otherwise it's just hypocrisy.

Thus I think you could do a lot better to revisit that reply and try to tackle important aspects brought up rather than fob them off as "racism".

Kerg3927:

I think the only way for black people to break the stereotypes is for more of them to stop behaving like the stereotype suggests, i.e. they need to become better educated and more sophisticated than they have been in the past, and then they'll be stereotyped in a better way. Again, education is the key to everything for them. And I'm all for helping them accomplish that.

I would disagree with "infinitely." But of course you're stereotyping white people and treating them all the same, like the person doing the hiring in the previous section. You don't consider the poor white trash kid in the trailer park with the single mom hooked on meth, teeth falling out. In your eyes, that person is the same as Donald Trump. He's just white.

You do realize you're doing to black people what you claim ObsidianJones is doing to white people, right?

You are blatantly stereotyping all black people while complaining about people stereotyping all white people.

Kerg3927:

Lil devils x:
No kidding.. It isn't like The Soviets were even using actual communism anyhow as they still hoarded the wealth at the top and let the people starve. That is by no means " divided equally or by need" and in no way was for the benefit of the people and their future. The only actual communist systems I am aware of are tribal systems, and yea they have actually worked well, even the leaders had the same share as everyone else rather than take more for themselves. The whole idea of hoarding shat and killing off the people has nothing to do with communism, it is corruption, which is happening rampantly in capitalist societies as well. more have been killed by capitalism than by any other means. Invading, slaughtering, pillaging and enslaving Africa, Australia, and the Americas was all a capitalist venture. The ranch wars in the US, range wars, railroad wars, Mob boss gangster blood baths.. The US has a long trail of blood in the name of capitalism. There has never been free market capitalism, it is a lie. The government has always been controlled by one side or the other and determines the winners and losers. They killed people took their lands if they did not agree to move off them or give them to them. Sadly, this really never fully ended either, we had a corrupt DA here who was jailing people to take their land as well here got a slap on the wrist for a lesser offense and was out of jail in no time no that long ago. When you let capitalists run the country, they wield it as a weapon the same as any other corrupt government does to fatten their own pockets.

I'm well aware of the flaws of capitalism, but it's the best we've got. Corruption is going to be present in any system. We are afterall humans, and humans are greedy and selfish creatures.

Most of the violence you describe is from a different era. Yes, some bad shit still goes on today, bombings and drone strikes with civilian collateral damage, etc. But it's a violent world out there, and violence still has to be countered by violence of our own. It would be awesome if we could solve international disputes with conversation but it just doesn't work that way except in the minds of naive ideologues.

At least our system does have some checks and balances to curb the worst abuses of power, better than any system that has come before it, and we do have a ton of freedoms that many other countries don't have. I mean, we've got frickin' Donald Trump in the White House, and the media and everyone else is free to bash him daily without anyone disappearing in the middle of night. I call that a win. And I'm not enthusiastic about trading our system for something that would most likely be far worse.

It would be great if something like socialism/communism worked, if there were no poor people and everyone was happy. But selfish people (everyone) are not going to give up what they have without being forced or brainwashed, and the only way to do that is by concentrating even more power into even fewer hands, which always leads even worse corruption, and the taking away of current freedoms many people take for granted.

Lil devils x:
When 2/3rds of terrorism in the US is by right wing extremists, it is a bit asinine to be worried about the left trying to give everyone healthcare and feed and house the poor getting "out of hand".

Everyone having food, housing, and healthcare is a great goal, and it's the traditional wheelhouse of the left. They should stick to it. The problems come when they go beyond that, arguing for equality of outcomes for everyone in every way, while trying their best to start a race war.

" the best we got" is not our current system, in fact, nations with far more socialist systems than the US has fare far better in many areas.

When you look at the top 10 socialist nations:
China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium

http://blog.peerform.com/top-ten-most-socialist-countries-in-the-world/

and compare them to the US, it becomes blatantly obvious we can do better. Corruption is worse in the US than in more socialist nations, not better.
Least corrupt countries:

Denmark
New Zealand
Finland
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Luxembourg
https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018

As you can plainly see, Most of the most socialist nations are ALSO most of the least corrupt, and that is not the only areas they surpass other nations, they excel in many areas including healthcare, education, health of the people, reduction of poverty, happiness of people and standard of living.

Happiest people= Finland
Healthiest people= Iceland
Best Education= Finland
Best healthcare= Finland
Best Quality of Life= Canada

When you look through the top ten lists of all these nations, you will see the same ton 10 most socialist nations names come up repeatedly for a reason.

https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-look-like-a-developed-country/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/11-best-school-systems-in-the-world-a7425391.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system?slide=11
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/27/us-news-world-report-10-countries-with-the-best-quality-of-life.html

It appears you have had your head filled with some strange ideas on what is and what isn't, as far more socialist nations than the US are doing things much better, with less corruption, happier people and no you do not have to go all 1984 on people to achieve it. The US should be taking notes.

Kerg3927:

Lil devils x:
My point is that we still have problems that need to be addressed rather than pretend like this was something that happened a long time past and is no longer " our problem" as a society, when it is.

I agree that there are still problems. There always will be. I'm just saying that exaggerating them ruins your credibility and hurts your cause. Of course, that all comes back to perception.

Lil devils x:
Broken families meaning they were kidnapped, traumatized, abused, beaten, drugged, starved, suffering from PTSD and never received any help so they repeat the cycle of abuse and violence that was perpetrated against them for generations now. They need a great deal of help to change these things, not just put it out there and expect them to be able to be anywhere near a point where they are going to be able to " take advantage" of anything and it is ignorant of the actual situations to suggest they can. Many do not have family units, or have any of the same priorities because all of that was stripped from them through cycles of abuse. Just " jailing" the rapist and abusers isn't solving the problem long term. The child who was raped often turns into the rapist. The abused child often becomes an abuser. You have to address the cycle of abuse itself and rebuild.

You are incorrect. It does not actually start with education, it starts with addressing poverty, providing SAFETY, providing proper nutrition, shelter, medical attention, mental health, drug rehabilitation, and life long help to rebuild what has been broken . Once they have the basic necessities you move on to education and it is not a matter of providing education and expect people to be able to compete at the same level when they are not coming from the same starting point. If you have parents who were never educated, how can they provide the support structures needed to help a child succeed? How can they help them with their homework or even know what they need to be able to do their homework or understand what help they need or even see that as a priority when they are in the middle of a crisis? You have to understand that when people are in crisis, they are not going to be able to sit down and do their homework, or even make it to school on time. That is not how this works. They currently do not even have the stability to do that in many areas. In addition to that, you are STILL having to deal with what they deal with on a daily basis in terms of racism.

So how about we hand each one of them a million dollars? That would probably be cheaper than what you are proposing. How do we help them realistically? I also think you belittle them. They are not as broken as you believe. If I were black, and reading that, I'd be really offended at someone describing me as such.

As for poverty, I agree. But we have food stamps for that, right? Safety, we try that by sending cops into their neighborhoods, and then the cops get villainized for being there. The problem is the drug war. Maybe if we legalized drugs it would remove the profit incentive for gangs, which would lessen the violence, and then we could put the increased tax revenue toward drug counseling and rehab.

But life long help? These are proud black people. To me that is insulting to them. Once they reach a level of stability, they should be able to make it on their own like everyone else, unless you think they are inferior to everyone else?

Lil devils x:
Yes, we have classism issues, but when you have racism+ classism, it is so much more. Here is the problem with your " all lives matter" approach, is that for the longest time now, all lives mattered EXCEPT black lives. They have NEVER mattered the same, that is why they are having to point it out now. People keep turning a blind eye to it and that is why it is as bad as it is still even now. I am telling you racism is rampant because IT IS. You are trying to claim all these other issues are the only problem here, when they are intersectional problems, but do not change the fact that the racism itself is a problem as well and should be addressed.

Let me ask you this. Say a blind poll was taken of all white people in the U.S. asking, "Are you happy that so many black people live in such poor conditions?" What do you think the answer would be? 10% yes? 50%? I think it would be less than 5%.

But I admit there is some racism. There always will be. A lot of people are ignorant and stupid. But how would you address it? Again, getting on the internet and bitching about it is not accomplishing anything, and if you get indiscriminately accusatory (by saying racist things about all white people), I think it creates more racism, because there is a backlash from people who feel that they are unfairly under attack.

Lil devils x:
You act like I want racism to be rampant, I don't that is why I am saying this needs to be addressed. You OTOH are trying to make out that racism is not the problem with how this is the way it is now since poverty can happen to anyone, but in reality we have race induced poverty in addition to poverty that came about by other means on a large scale.

You say you are offering a solution, but your solution will not even remotely put a dent into the problem. My solution is to actually address the core of the problems and provide the actual help the people need long term . You cannot even provide them safety to begin until you address racism.

Racism is not the cause of their safety concerns. Most violence against black people is from other black people. As I said above, it's the drug/gang violence that needs to be addressed in order to make them safer.

Lil devils x:
" you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" is WRONG. When the horse is too sick to drink, you start an IV and nurse it back to health until it is able to drink again. There is a huge difference in the approach, and outcome.

But at some point, they have to drink.

Lil devils x:
EDIT: In case you missed it, I do not just sit here on the internet and rant about racism. I work in Pediatric Medicine, in addition to the Pediatric Clinic here, I also work at the largest public hospital system in the DFW metroplex, we receive patients from all over the world. I also volunteer at the free clinic here, battered women's and children's shelter, Ruth's House, MSF, and have traveled extensively both in the US and abroad dealing with these issues first hand. You really should stop making assumptions about people. This is something I see all the time, not just here and there. It is a problem. What are you doing about it besides trying to tell people it isn't a problem that needs to be addressed?

Again my main point of all of this is say that if people are going to discuss it, they shouldn't exaggerate, because they lose all credibility and it creates the opposite effect intended when people call bullshit. And they shouldn't make racist blanket statements against white people, because it also does more harm than good, creating a backlash from people who feel like they are unjustly under attack.

1. I am not seeing anyone here exaggerating the current state of Racism and the impact it has on people here. I do see you bending over backwards to downplay it. I am not seeing the people speaking honestly about it as losing credibility, however, I do see you losing credibility when you try to pretend like it isn't a big deal by accusing others of exaggeration while you hurl out out extreme exaggerations on holocausts and take things out of context. That harms your credibility, not those who are discussing the actual issues here.

2.Addressing specific issues is not throwing out blanket responses that apply to everyone let alone belittle them and to suggest such is not acting in good faith. You know as well as I do that not everyone needs rape and abuse counseling, however those who have suffered such DO. Those who do not have a safe home environment are who need a safe home environment and no it is not " belittling" people to focus efforts to address those issues.

3.Food stamps does not rid us of poverty, it assists with food insecurity, and due to cuts and inequality in food quality accessibility, food stamps alone does not address malnutrition. Healthy, toxin free fresh foods are much more expensive and not made accessible to the poor and that is a separate issues that has to be addressed on it's own.

4.Safety is multifaceted, and not just a policing matter. A safe living environment is a combination of a family and community support structure, a nonhazardous living environment, and security. Family and community support means to have the necessary trusted knowledgeable supporting people in place that a child an turn to in times of distress. When children do not have people capable of helping them that they can turn to for help, it makes their problem far worse rather than being able to address them and help them in time. Many abuses and crimes against children go unreported for this reason. A nonhazardous living environment means that we must ensure everyone has access to a healthy place to live. We have toxic sites that no one should be living on that need to be cleaned up and blocked off, buildings that should be deemed uninhabitable that are making people sick, and people still being exposed to the elements due to lack of proper housing. This has to be remedied before you can expect them to remain well enough to function at all. In addition to actual toxic sites that the EPA should be restricting and cleaning up that they are not due to corporate shill greed, we have a severe lack of adequate, affordable, safe housing. Unhealthy living conditions often greatly impact their health to the extent that it prevents them from functioning well at work or school and leads to lifelong health issues that often become debilitating. Then we have security, which is addressing crime, corruption and abuse. This is also a complicated issue as current racism in policing has to be addressed to be able to keep the people safe from the police, which should not be an additional burden on the community, but it is. Who keeps the people safe from the police when the police are corrupt? That is the current state of many minority communities. We have to overhaul law enforcement to be able to actually provide security to communities in the first place. Then we have to have security provided in schools, the home, and while people walk to and from work and school. This is not just a matter of policing, it is a matter of community building.

"Lifelong help" is far from being insulting. People will need access to counseling and community support throughout their life, not just a one time fix. The wealthy already have access to these things, ensuring everyone else does is not insulting to anyone. No one should be made to feel " less than" or " less proud" because they need help. Trying to shame them into feeling so is what is insulting, not having the help there for when they need it.

Go ahead and show me the exact quotes you claim I am accusatory to "all white people". If you are going to make an accusation, I expect you to provide the evidence of such. That appears to be another exaggeration on your part, not mine.

Racism is not the cause of their safety concerns. Most violence against black people is from other black people. As I said above, it's the drug/gang violence that needs to be addressed in order to make them safer.

Of course most violence against others is from people of one's own race, that does not some how mean that racial violence is not an issue. In addition, do you actually believe that one cannot commit racial violence against one's own race? Your wording suggests you actually seem to think that black people cannot be racist against black people, I hope that is not what you are suggesting here, as that is terribly ignorant of the impact of racism on a society as whole. It is not limited to one race or another, and yes you can be racist against your own race. It is not like people would be somehow insulated against the impact of racism in the society simply because they are of a certain race. This is one of the severe issues that has to be addressed especially when we have so many black children self harming, bleaching and killing themselves because they hate their own skin due to the prevalence of racism in society causing them to view themselves in such negative ways. They are not immune to having this impact them, and the results are tragic.

From what you have stated here, it is apparent you do not actually understand the problem, it's scale, or it's impact to be able to make an assessment of it. My solution here is to provide more physical resources in the numerous areas stated above and address the social conditioning to make the needed adjustments. People were socially conditioned to increase racism, we need to do the opposite and socially condition them to decrease racism. This is something the society as a whole must address in order to change that long term, and yes, that include discussing it openly as a part of that. People are not born with these bias's they are learned. We have the ability to change what is learned.

Lil devils x:

Least corrupt countries:

Denmark
New Zealand

Damnit, Bob! We lost first place. Right, who performed an act of corruption last year?

Gonna string that fucker up.

Agema:
Yeah, I noted this accusation you levelled at ObsidianJones, and I don't think it holds any substantial weight. It looks for all the world like a cheap counter-accusation that is both unconstructive, and even worse potentially indicative of no desire to be constructive.

Do you think this country's current hyper-polarization is constructive? I'm saying that IMO a big source of that polarization is blanket accusations by the far left against white people, who may be sympathetic to many of these issues, who probably are, but harden, go on the defensive, and say fuck those people when they get blanketly accused of doing something they don't feel that they did. Again, there is probably nothing more anti-constructive that you can possibly do than say it's all white people's fault.

I think people need to ask themselves a question, what exactly is your goal? Is it to find actual solutions to problems and create a better world? Because to do that, you need to win people over by making them sympathetic to those problems. Or is it to piss off entire races of people you don't like, high five your like-minded online buddies and say fuck yeah, I showed those privileged motherfuckers. Because that is doing it for selfish reasons, not the greater good, and it's not winning anyone over to your cause. It is driving them away.

Agema:
Particularly wince-inducing with regard to this is saying it's not your perception that there's much racism in the USA... Might I hazard a guess you're not a member of a demographic group and social milieu very likely to experience it? Isn't that potentially what ObsidianJones means when he says whites may feel much less need to do anything about it?

I totally agreed with Obsidian that perceptions may vary. And I'm entitled to mine, as he is his. None of us have been everywhere and seen everything from every perspective. We're not omniscient.

Agema:
We all make generalisations which are ultimately reasonable, you did yourself did when you said things like that black people need to behave better to not be stereotyped. You clearly seem to think other people should engage with your generalisations constructively, so you need to do the same to theirs otherwise it's just hypocrisy.

Thus I think you could do a lot better to revisit that reply and try to tackle important aspects brought up rather than fob them off as "racism".

I think this is the paragraph...

I think the only way for black people to break the stereotypes is for more of them to stop behaving like the stereotype suggests, i.e. they need to become better educated and more sophisticated than they have been in the past, and then they'll be stereotyped in a better way. Again, education is the key to everything for them. And I'm all for helping them accomplish that.

I have tried to word things carefully throughout, to avoid racial generalizations. I did a poor job there. I apologize for the poor wording. I was trying to think of why some people stereotype black people in the hiring process, and what black people could do to change that. And that's what I thought of. I didn't mean that all black people need to become more educated and sophisticated. Obviously, many of them already are. I meant that more of them do, i.e. the ones who currently aren't, the ones creating the stereotype.

Here, I'll try to fix it...

I think the only way for black people to break the stereotypes is for more of them to stop behaving like the stereotype suggests, i.e. they more of them need to become better educated and more sophisticated than they have been in the past, and then they'll be stereotyped in a better way. Again, education is the key to everything for them. And I'm all for helping them accomplish that.

Here's another one I worded poorly that I'll try to fix...

Again, the only way to change the stereotypes is for more black people to quit living up to the stereotypes. Better education, which the government can certainly help with. Less gang violence.

Saelune:

Kerg3927:

I think the only way for black people to break the stereotypes is for more of them to stop behaving like the stereotype suggests, i.e. they need to become better educated and more sophisticated than they have been in the past, and then they'll be stereotyped in a better way. Again, education is the key to everything for them. And I'm all for helping them accomplish that.

I would disagree with "infinitely." But of course you're stereotyping white people and treating them all the same, like the person doing the hiring in the previous section. You don't consider the poor white trash kid in the trailer park with the single mom hooked on meth, teeth falling out. In your eyes, that person is the same as Donald Trump. He's just white.

You do realize you're doing to black people what you claim ObsidianJones is doing to white people, right?

You are blatantly stereotyping all black people while complaining about people stereotyping all white people.

Yep, poorly worded. Thanks for pointing that out. Addressed in the prior post.

Lil devils x:
" the best we got" is not our current system, in fact, nations with far more socialist systems than the US has fare far better in many areas.

When you look at the top 10 socialist nations:
China
Denmark
Finland
Netherlands
Canada
Sweden
Norway
Ireland
New Zealand
Belgium

http://blog.peerform.com/top-ten-most-socialist-countries-in-the-world/

and compare them to the US, it becomes blatantly obvious we can do better. Corruption is worse in the US than in more socialist nations, not better.
Least corrupt countries:

Denmark
New Zealand
Finland
Singapore
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Luxembourg
https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018

As you can plainly see, Most of the most socialist nations are ALSO most of the least corrupt, and that is not the only areas they surpass other nations, they excel in many areas including healthcare, education, health of the people, reduction of poverty, happiness of people and standard of living.

Happiest people= Finland
Healthiest people= Iceland
Best Education= Finland
Best healthcare= Finland
Best Quality of Life= Canada

When you look through the top ten lists of all these nations, you will see the same ton 10 most socialist nations names come up repeatedly for a reason.

https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-look-like-a-developed-country/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/11-best-school-systems-in-the-world-a7425391.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-system?slide=11
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/27/us-news-world-report-10-countries-with-the-best-quality-of-life.html

It appears you have had your head filled with some strange ideas on what is and what isn't, as far more socialist nations than the US are doing things much better, with less corruption, happier people and no you do not have to go all 1984 on people to achieve it. The US should be taking notes.

Depends on how you define socialism. All of those countries have capitalism, private property, free markets, and significant wealth inequality. They just have high taxes and spend a lot on welfare programs, which I'm generally in favor of, by the way. They do have a few key industries that are state-controlled.

What I'm against is the abolishment of private property, and an economy that is completely or mostly controlled by the state, due to some disastrously naive notion that everyone can have equal outcomes. I believe that the only way to accomplish that is to go all 1984.

Lil devils x:
1. I am not seeing anyone here exaggerating the current state of Racism and the impact it has on people here. I do see you bending over backwards to downplay it. I am not seeing the people speaking honestly about it as losing credibility, however, I do see you losing credibility when you try to pretend like it isn't a big deal by accusing others of exaggeration while you hurl out out extreme exaggerations on holocausts and take things out of context. That harms your credibility, not those who are discussing the actual issues here.

Of course you would see it that way, because we have different perceptions. And of course you wouldn't see people with the same perception you have as lacking credibility, but as I said, if you want change, it's not those people you should be concerned about. They're already on your side. It's the ones on the fence that you have to convince.

Lil devils x:
2.Addressing specific issues is not throwing out blanket responses that apply to everyone let alone belittle them and to suggest such is not acting in good faith. You know as well as I do that not everyone needs rape and abuse counseling, however those who have suffered such DO. Those who do not have a safe home environment are who need a safe home environment and no it is not " belittling" people to focus efforts to address those issues.

Thanks for the clarification. The way you worded it sounded like all black people needed "life long help," presumably because they are so broken that they can't get out of a fetal position. Sorry, it just made me cringe with embarrassment.

Lil devils x:
3.Food stamps does not rid us of poverty, it assists with food insecurity, and due to cuts and inequality in food quality accessibility, food stamps alone does not address malnutrition. Healthy, toxin free fresh foods are much more expensive and not made accessible to the poor and that is a separate issues that has to be addressed on it's own.

Very few people in the world can afford to buy their groceries at Whole Foods. Hell, I can't.

Lil devils x:
4.Safety is multifaceted, and not just a policing matter. A safe living environment is a combination of a family and community support structure, a nonhazardous living environment, and security. Family and community support means to have the necessary trusted knowledgeable supporting people in place that a child an turn to in times of distress. When children do not have people capable of helping them that they can turn to for help, it makes their problem far worse rather than being able to address them and help them in time. Many abuses and crimes against children go unreported for this reason. A nonhazardous living environment means that we must ensure everyone has access to a healthy place to live. We have toxic sites that no one should be living on that need to be cleaned up and blocked off, buildings that should be deemed uninhabitable that are making people sick, and people still being exposed to the elements due to lack of proper housing. This has to be remedied before you can expect them to remain well enough to function at all. In addition to actual toxic sites that the EPA should be restricting and cleaning up that they are not due to corporate shill greed, we have a severe lack of adequate, affordable, safe housing. Unhealthy living conditions often greatly impact their health to the extent that it prevents them from functioning well at work or school and leads to lifelong health issues that often become debilitating. Then we have security, which is addressing crime, corruption and abuse. This is also a complicated issue as current racism in policing has to be addressed to be able to keep the people safe from the police, which should not be an additional burden on the community, but it is. Who keeps the people safe from the police when the police are corrupt? That is the current state of many minority communities. We have to overhaul law enforcement to be able to actually provide security to communities in the first place. Then we have to have security provided in schools, the home, and while people walk to and from work and school. This is not just a matter of policing, it is a matter of community building.

Most of that sounds great, but some of it is pretty far-fetched. We still live in a free country where parents have to figure it out for themselves, with great variations in the quality of parenthood. I'm not sure how the government can enter each household and eradicate all of the bad parenting going on. And I'm talking about all races here.

Lil devils x:
"Lifelong help" is far from being insulting. People will need access to counseling and community support throughout their life, not just a one time fix. The wealthy already have access to these things, ensuring everyone else does is not insulting to anyone. No one should be made to feel " less than" or " less proud" because they need help. Trying to shame them into feeling so is what is insulting, not having the help there for when they need it.

Maybe I'm just ignorant about these things, but by counseling, are you talking about psychiatrists, for anyone any time they want? Sounds extremely expensive. And is it even effective? I don't know the answer to that, just saying, aren't the results extremely mixed?

Lil devils x:
Go ahead and show me the exact quotes you claim I am accusatory to "all white people". If you are going to make an accusation, I expect you to provide the evidence of such. That appears to be another exaggeration on your part, not mine.

That was addressing my posts in this thread generally (i.e. the main points I've been trying to make), not directed particularly at you. Sorry if you got that impression. I'm not going to go back through them all, but I'll take your word for it that you haven't made any such statements. That's good. Others have.

Lil devils x:

Racism is not the cause of their safety concerns. Most violence against black people is from other black people. As I said above, it's the drug/gang violence that needs to be addressed in order to make them safer.

Of course most violence against others is from people of one's own race, that does not some how mean that racial violence is not an issue. In addition, do you actually believe that one cannot commit racial violence against one's own race? Your wording suggests you actually seem to think that black people cannot be racist against black people, I hope that is not what you are suggesting here, as that is terribly ignorant of the impact of racism on a society as whole. It is not limited to one race or another, and yes you can be racist against your own race. It is not like people would be somehow insulated against the impact of racism in the society simply because they are of a certain race. This is one of the severe issues that has to be addressed especially when we have so many black children self harming, bleaching and killing themselves because they hate their own skin due to the prevalence of racism in society causing them to view themselves in such negative ways. They are not immune to having this impact them, and the results are tragic.

What I was trying to say is that I don't think black on black gang violence is usually racially motivated.

Just googled the skin bleaching things. Weird. Seems kind of like anorexia. Or women getting breast implants. Or Chinese women crushing their feet.

Lil devils x:
From what you have stated here, it is apparent you do not actually understand the problem, it's scale, or it's impact to be able to make an assessment of it. My solution here is to provide more physical resources in the numerous areas stated above and address the social conditioning to make the needed adjustments. People were socially conditioned to increase racism, we need to do the opposite and socially condition them to decrease racism. This is something the society as a whole must address in order to change that long term, and yes, that include discussing it openly as a part of that. People are not born with these bias's they are learned. We have the ability to change what is learned.

Good luck. You're going to need it, in my opinion, because many of your solutions would be extremely expensive, and people don't like paying more taxes. I genuinely hope that some of your more practical measures get implemented one day.

Kerg3927:
*snips*

While dealing with real world stuff, I saw this and wondered if I was going to respond. At this point, I have to say I'm wondering if you're trolling me or... I don't know what.

There are times where you're calling the application of facts as Stereotypes. And then you make up a horrific 'solution' that I don't even come close to suggesting. I don't have the words for that.

The central fact is that Whites are the population majority in this country. That tenet creates everything that I've just stated, and has with every culture. The population majority votes on the rights they give others in the country, decide on what status will be allowed, enacts the social mores that everyone must live by, and chooses the societal issues that will be relevant. Such as the Chinese with their indigenous people along with Tibetans, Australians and the Aboriginals, and hell, how the Native Americans still suffer by being ran under the Federal Government.

It's not a stereotype to say a majority anywhere has the ultimate say in what goes on in their country and what 'truths' get told. That is what the White Privilege you think is so damning is. The Whites in this country have said privilege by being in the majority. The same Privilege that any member of a majority felt in all of human history.

And while this was already addressed, I've seen you do stereotyping consistently. From what is Masculinity to what Blacks need to be doing better to everything that's happening with the Radical Left... It's a near constant.

You say often that blacks need to do less crime. I'm sure you have reports and stats to back it up. But when other people have stats and reports to back up their hypotheses, you dismiss them because they aren't accurate or not that big of a deal. Even if they come from the government itself.

So this is what I struggle with. Is this absolute trolling, or is this situational blindness? Either/or, conversational debate seems like somewhat of a moot point. I personally like discussing with people who have viewpoints other than my own, but at this moment I do not believe we're doing it in good faith. It gives me pause in continuing.

ObsidianJones:

Kerg3927:
*snips*

While dealing with real world stuff, I saw this and wondered if I was going to respond. At this point, I have to say I'm wondering if you're trolling me or... I don't know what.

You'll have to just take my word for it, but I promise you that I'm not trolling. I've been sitting down every evening the last few nights with a glass of wine and trying to carefully and thoughtfully respond to everyone in this thread honestly, with good faith, and to the best of my ability, which you may not agree with, and that's fine, but I'm not trolling. I have other things I could be doing, like play video games. I have hardly gotten any gaming in this week. :/ Salt and Sanctuary is calling....

ObsidianJones:
There are times where you're calling the application of facts as Stereotypes. And then you make up a horrific 'solution' that I don't even come close to suggesting. I don't have the words for that.

Are you talking about the "white people receive 37% more callbacks on resumes" thing? Because I view that as a result of racial stereotyping. It's no different than Arab people getting targeted more than others at the airport for security checks. The only way I see to fix that problem long term is for the Arab people who are blowing up shit to stop doing it.

There is obviously a stereotype out there, among some employers at least, that black people underperform on the job. The way to fix that is for the ones that are underperforming to stop underperforming. And whatever we can do to help those people stop underperforming, I'm all for it. Better education, training, or whatever. That may seem harsh, but I think it's really the only long term viable solution. You may disagree, and that's fine.

ObsidianJones:
The central fact is that Whites are the population majority in this country. That tenet creates everything that I've just stated, and has with every culture. The population majority votes on the rights they give others in the country, decide on what status will be allowed, enacts the social mores that everyone must live by, and chooses the societal issues that will be relevant. Such as the Chinese with their indigenous people along with Tibetans, Australians and the Aboriginals, and hell, how the Native Americans still suffer by being ran under the Federal Government.

It's not a stereotype to say a majority anywhere has the ultimate say in what goes on in their country and what 'truths' get told. That is what the White Privilege you think is so damning is. The Whites in this country have said privilege by being in the majority. The same Privilege that any member of a majority felt in all of human history.

But that assumes that all white people are acting in "white interests." That's simply not the case. IMO, everyone, regardless of race, acts in his own personal interest and in the interest of his family and friends first, very often at odds with other white people, who compete against each other in the meat grinder of life just like they compete with everyone else. I don't have much in common with the majority of white people. Hell, I probably have more in common with you than most white people, and I know nothing about you, except that if you're on this website, I can probably assume that you love video games, and at least we have the same hobby in common.

The world is not divided up into like-minded "teams" based upon race, with everyone making decisions based upon what is best for their race. It's just not like that. And that is a fucked up way of looking at the world, IMO.

ObsidianJones:
And while this was already addressed, I've seen you do stereotyping consistently. From what is Masculinity to what Blacks need to be doing better to everything that's happening with the Radical Left... It's a near constant.

You say often that blacks need to do less crime. I'm sure you have reports and stats to back it up. But when other people have stats and reports to back up their hypotheses, you dismiss them because they aren't accurate or not that big of a deal. Even if they come from the government itself.

I'm not going to go back and re-read everything in this long thread and others to try to find which instances you're talking about. (Sorry, I really do want to play some Salt and Sanctuary tonight.) But if you want to provide some examples, I'll be happy to respond to them. I try to take actual scientific stats seriously. For example, the 37% interview thing, I acknowledged that it is most likely evidence of racial stereotyping. But I don't consider one article about a white trash trailer park racist doing something stupid to be scientific evidence of rampant racism in this country. Each article is just one incident among hundreds of millions of non-incidents. And 10 articles is just 10 incidents among hundreds of millions of non-incidents.

As for the hate crimes article by the FBI, if that's what you are referring to, I didn't dismiss it outright. I said the numbers were surprisingly low, and a 17% increase from only 6,000 occurrences in a country of 325,000,000 is not that big of a deal relatively. Now if the 800,000 aggravated assaults with a deadly weapon had increased by 17%, an increase of 136,000 incidents, that would have been something to raise an eyebrow about. And then I read in the article itself that the numbers were admittedly completely untrustworthy, because of different reporting requirements in different parts of the country for hate crimes.

ObsidianJones:
So this is what I struggle with. Is this absolute trolling, or is this situational blindness? Either/or, conversational debate seems like somewhat of a moot point. I personally like discussing with people who have viewpoints other than my own, but at this moment I do not believe we're doing it in good faith. It gives me pause in continuing.

Up to you. I don't believe it's either. I'm just giving you my honest opinion, and I'm doing it in good faith.

I'll take right winger's barking to lefties about "But that's a class issue!" more seriously when they stop regarding people with lower incomes as garbage.

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