Let us talk about 'Civility'

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undeadsuitor:

Then your only beef with saelune is pedantic tone policing on your part.

Congrats on caring more about someone hurting your feelings than like

Baby teargassing and molesting kid jails

Where in this thread are these molesters and Baby gassers? And why I can't I point out that someone is being irrational and hystrical while also not liking molesters? I can do both. How is this a priority issue?

EDIT: Also, holy shit. 10 pages! and nobody's learned jack the whole way through. This is the glory of the internet.

Abomination:
Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

If they're defensive about voting for child rapists and people who gas children, if they're spiteful because I take the stance that these things are bad....

Surely you can see the problem here.

10 pages

So what I've gathered so far is

Until Democrats are in charge of the country, they can do no wrong and they have no room for improvement. And every single Conservative in the country is literally Satan and we should commit genocide against them. Have I covered all the bases?

Shadowstar38:
So what I've gathered so far is

Until Democrats are in charge of the country, they can do no wrong and they have no room for improvement. And every single Conservative in the country is literally Satan and we should commit genocide against them. Have I covered all the bases?

So you beg for civility but feel at ease to insult and hyperbolize. Have I got all the bases covered.

Also for your other question. I think throwing tear gas into a crowd filled with children is recent enough to remember and as far as molestation

theintercept.com/2018/04/11/immigration-detention-sexual-abuse-ice-dhs/

Marik2:
Feels like the wild west in here.

I dont see the call out threads yet. Or insults. Unless you think being called a racist, closed minded or bigot and insult.

evilthecat:

Abomination:
Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

Honestly, if someone is willing to allow children to be teargassed because someone called them a racist, how "sympathetic" do you think they're capable of being?

Why bother listening to an argument when you can get offended instead. That's actually how you win arguments.

undeadsuitor:

Shadowstar38:
So what I've gathered so far is

Until Democrats are in charge of the country, they can do no wrong and they have no room for improvement. And every single Conservative in the country is literally Satan and we should commit genocide against them. Have I covered all the bases?

So you beg for civility but feel at ease to insult and hyperbolize. Have I got all the bases covered.

Also for your other question. I think throwing tear gas into a crowd filled with children is recent enough to remember and as far as molestation

theintercept.com/2018/04/11/immigration-detention-sexual-abuse-ice-dhs/

I say that making stupid and irrational statements are unhelpful and somehow I'm accused of not caring about things that are obviously evil and there was no debate about them being evil. Pot, meet kettle.

But okay, let me state the obvious. Rape is bad M'kay. Don't rape kids. It's not cool. Will that suffice?

Shadowstar38:
So what I've gathered so far is

Until Democrats are in charge of the country, they can do no wrong and they have no room for improvement. And every single Conservative in the country is literally Satan and we should commit genocide against them. Have I covered all the bases?

Obama built a wall. At the bottom of Mexico. And used the Mexian Army to enforce it so he could get around human rights issues that Trump is mired in. It's why that army is ferry refugees to the US border now. Trump's not paying and they are going to make them pay. This was not okay having mercenaries kill people for us.

Obama authorised drone strikes, putting his war crimes almost on par as Bush.

While he didn't start the bailouts, he continued them. Making sure that those that crashed the economy got handsomely compensated for their crimes. Also, there were hundreds of thousands of fraudulent mortgage documents that NO ONE WENT TO JAIL FOR. On the broker or customer side. He did continue with HEMP which made tax payers pay for other people's crimes.

Obamacare was better than the older system. That did not make it good. Or even adequate.

I don't know how you fix the Democrats. That doesn't mean, like you claim, that all the complaints about Repunlicians invalidates these issue with the Dems. It's not an all or nothing proposition. The Dems are pretty bad. They are still far superior to Republicans. Becuase a wet fart can beat the GOP at the moment. Even not voting for the Dems won't help. They have literally no competition. Their platform is don't kill refugees and something something single payer health care and the win by default.

Shadowstar38:
But okay, let me state the obvious. Rape is bad M'kay. Don't rape kids. It's not cool. Will that suffice?

So, if you have one political party that allows rapists in their ranks, that opposes legal measures to oppose rape, that allows rape of kids in detention centres without doing anything about it, that party would be bad?

What about someone that supports said party while knowing that? Or, hell, because of that?

This, also, should be fairly obvious.

Thaluikhain:

Shadowstar38:
But okay, let me state the obvious. Rape is bad M'kay. Don't rape kids. It's not cool. Will that suffice?

So, if you have one political party that allows rapists in their ranks, that opposes legal measures to oppose rape, that allows rape of kids in detention centres without doing anything about it, that party would be bad?

What about someone that supports said party while knowing that? Or, hell, because of that?

This, also, should be fairly obvious.

Okay. So you align politically with everything Republican but find you can't stomach the criminal activity and bigotry.

What are your options?

Hypothetically I mean.

evilthecat:

Abomination:
Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

Honestly, if someone is willing to allow children to be teargassed because someone called them a racist, how "sympathetic" do you think they're capable of being?

You vastly overestimate how much influence a single voter has and how they are in a position to "allow" anything to happen. You also overestimate how much attention an individual can afford to give to the actions of their government when it comes to the arcane structure of the US.

Finally, sympathetic in context is about being willing to change who they vote for. That's the goal, right? If you're going to assume that they'll never change then why even bother wasting time conversing with them, spiteful or otherwise?

Pick a battle that's going to help your cause, don't yell at windmills.

Something Amyss:

Abomination:
Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

If they're defensive about voting for child rapists and people who gas children, if they're spiteful because I take the stance that these things are bad....

Surely you can see the problem here.

One can take a stance that things are bad without blaming a voter for the actions of the party they voted for and immediately assume that that voter is on board with those actions. Just because someone voted for a party because they like their stance on X does not mean they approve of that party's action Y. There are only 2 parties to choose from. Hate the politicians and lobbyists who make or influence the decisions, don't throw anger towards voters - they are the ones you want to convince.

And yes, it's a problem that people would rather be spiteful than introspective, but that's not something that is fixed by being hostile and toxic to those people. You deal with the reality you have, not the one you wish for.

Race to the bottom bipartisanship just wedges a greater divide - it is not productive, it is destructive to the goals of the Democratic party. The Democrats are LOSING, they need to have a majority in the senate for once while also holding the presidency. Their tactics and behavior is directly contributing to that constant failure.

I WANT the Dems to win, but watching how they're trying to go about it is pants-on-head retarded.

Abomination:
You vastly overestimate how much influence a single voter has and how they are in a position to "allow" anything to happen. You also overestimate how much attention an individual can afford to give to the actions of their government when it comes to the arcane structure of the US.

You don't need to be able to literally change the entire world single handedly to criticise it, to know where you stand, to take a principled stance and to incorporate that stance into your future political decisions.

If a person can sit there and watch kids being teargassed and say "well, I would object to this and rethink my political stance but I will only do so if everyone is personally nice to me and stops holding me responsible for voting for the kinds of people who do this in the first place", then that person doesn't actually care. They aren't going to change their mind. They're using a rhetorical strategy to deflect criticism from themselves so they can carry on being just as indifferent to the awful things going on around them as they were previously.

Throwing out vague platitudes about how voting republican doesn't mean you support all republican policies doesn't absolve you of criticism, because if you're going to continue voting republican even knowing that other people are being mistreated as a result, then you've decided that those people don't matter, it's fine that they get thrown under the bus. You're not responsible because you were sat on the front seat of the bus performatively whispering "oh no, don't run those poor people over" in a very quiet, very civil voice.

Now, I get the argument about tactical civility, and I broadly agree with the concept. I try to practice it at least some of the time. But tactical civility is only worthwhile when it's actually going to make a difference, or when someone is actually open to being persuaded or when it's necessary to survive. A lot of the time, when people demand civility, it's not motivated by tactics, it's just a vacuous a moral requirement to "leave people alone" who, frankly, don't deserve to be left alone.

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:

Shadowstar38:
But okay, let me state the obvious. Rape is bad M'kay. Don't rape kids. It's not cool. Will that suffice?

So, if you have one political party that allows rapists in their ranks, that opposes legal measures to oppose rape, that allows rape of kids in detention centres without doing anything about it, that party would be bad?

What about someone that supports said party while knowing that? Or, hell, because of that?

This, also, should be fairly obvious.

Okay. So you align politically with everything Republican but find you can't stomach the criminal activity and bigotry.

What are your options?

Hypothetically I mean.

Don't vote for the criminals and bigots.

Marik2:
10 pages

There is a page counter already. If you want to contribute, then contribute.

Abomination:
People sure are obsessed with being called or identifying as left/right or being offended if someone labels them as right/left.

Identity politics in full swing.

I agree that the republican party, as a whole, is bad for the future of the US. But one can not completely ignore some of their tenants when considering US culture.

That said, members of the opposition really need to stop alienating swing voters if they want a chance of winning. Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

That's not really what identity politics are, but ok.

I think it is very interesting how many people who support the right are so unwilling to admit it.

Republicans started it. Seriously, they fucking started it. They demonized gays and blacks and immigrants. They created the spite. 'God Hates Fags' predates any incivility I ever had towards them.

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:

So, if you have one political party that allows rapists in their ranks, that opposes legal measures to oppose rape, that allows rape of kids in detention centres without doing anything about it, that party would be bad?

What about someone that supports said party while knowing that? Or, hell, because of that?

This, also, should be fairly obvious.

Okay. So you align politically with everything Republican but find you can't stomach the criminal activity and bigotry.

What are your options?

Hypothetically I mean.

Don't vote for the criminals and bigots.

1) Abstain from voting. Told you have no right to complain when the country goes to shit. Also told you're complacent for not actively trying to stop the Republicans.

2) Go third party and accused of wasting your vote. Still chance of Republicans winning.

Seems like people will be pissed regardless.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Okay. So you align politically with everything Republican but find you can't stomach the criminal activity and bigotry.

What are your options?

Hypothetically I mean.

Don't vote for the criminals and bigots.

1) Abstain from voting. Told you have no right to complain when the country goes to shit. Also told you're complacent for not actively trying to stop the Republicans.

2) Go third party and accused of wasting your vote. Still chance of Republicans winning.

Seems like people will be pissed regardless.

Sure, but people who directly voted for Trump are worse than people who voted for Bernie or did not vote at all. There are different levels.

I don't think people who vote for Bernie are Nazis. I think people who vote for White Supremacists are Nazis.

Saelune:
Sure, but people who directly voted for Trump are worse than people who voted for Bernie or did not vote at all. There are different levels.

I don't think people who vote for Bernie are Nazis. I think people who vote for White Supremacists are Nazis.

Every single senator, representative, mayor, governor,city council member, and right wing citizen in the entire country can't be a Nazi. That's a statistical improbability. You realize that right? You know how stupid that would sound to people who actually lived through death camps?

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Sure, but people who directly voted for Trump are worse than people who voted for Bernie or did not vote at all. There are different levels.

I don't think people who vote for Bernie are Nazis. I think people who vote for White Supremacists are Nazis.

Every single senator, representative, mayor, governor,city council member, and right wing citizen in the entire country can't be a Nazi. That's a statistical improbability. You realize that right? You know how stupid that would sound to people who actually lived through death camps?

You know what would sound stupid to people who lived through death camps? People forgetting how they got there. Well America forgot. Trump is following every step that Hitler did, well, except for personally serving in the military. We have scapegoating whole groups of people, we have internment camps, we have him purging every dissident he can and securing as much power as he can, spurring law and precedent to do so.

You want statistics? 16 million people died in those camps and Germany was happy to do it. Not just a small minoirty, but the whole damn country, aside from those who were the victims themselves. It happened already. We live in a world where Hitler already happened, there is no excuse to pretend this cant happen again, cause its happening right now.

Saelune:

You want statistics? 16 million people died in those camps

Not the statistics I was referring to but ok

Saelune:

Abomination:
People sure are obsessed with being called or identifying as left/right or being offended if someone labels them as right/left.

Identity politics in full swing.

I agree that the republican party, as a whole, is bad for the future of the US. But one can not completely ignore some of their tenants when considering US culture.

That said, members of the opposition really need to stop alienating swing voters if they want a chance of winning. Making someone feel spiteful towards you, because you've accused them of being every negative stereotype of the Republicans, is just going to encourage them to be defensive, rather than sympathetic to switching loyalties.

That's not really what identity politics are, but ok.

I think it is very interesting how many people who support the right are so unwilling to admit it.

Republicans started it. Seriously, they fucking started it. They demonized gays and blacks and immigrants. They created the spite. 'God Hates Fags' predates any incivility I ever had towards them.

It is identity politics when you associate anyone with the "right" in a terrible way and assume all the sins of that party are also something that individual agrees with or represents.

I do not support the right in any way.

Yes, they started it, but I dislike watching members of the "side" I want to see win behaving in a manner that is detrimental to them being put into a position of power. I will continue to criticise them when they continue to sabotage themselves. Not because I support the Republicans but because I want the Democrats to adopt attitudes and procedures that will increase their chance of winning.

evilthecat:

Abomination:
You vastly overestimate how much influence a single voter has and how they are in a position to "allow" anything to happen. You also overestimate how much attention an individual can afford to give to the actions of their government when it comes to the arcane structure of the US.

Throwing out vague platitudes about how voting republican doesn't mean you support all republican policies doesn't absolve you of criticism, because if you're going to continue voting republican even knowing that other people are being mistreated as a result, then you've decided that those people don't matter, it's fine that they get thrown under the bus. You're not responsible because you were sat on the front seat of the bus performatively whispering "oh no, don't run those poor people over" in a very quiet, very civil voice.

Now, I get the argument about tactical civility, and I broadly agree with the concept. I try to practice it at least some of the time. But tactical civility is only worthwhile when it's actually going to make a difference, or when someone is actually open to being persuaded or when it's necessary to survive. A lot of the time, when people demand civility, it's not motivated by tactics, it's just a vacuous a moral requirement to "leave people alone" who, frankly, don't deserve to be left alone.

Tactical civility is far more likely to create a positive outcome than calling people pro-rape/nazi/racism and any other social ill under the sun. Civility might convince some people, the other will cause others to dig their heels in.

So here's what you people need to understand. When you stop watching CNN, leave your liberal echo chambers, and actually talk to human beings, you realize politics isn't this cut and dry good vs evil thing. People have a logical train of thought leading them to make the political choices they make. The train of thought is the thing you need to question. If properly challenged with facts and instead of emotion, then you have someone to support you. If you think they're evil from the onset and need to be shouted down, you accomplish nothing and Trump 2020 gets that much closer.

You might not have caused the country to be the way that it is. But if you have an opportunity to help fix it, and squander it with self righteous dickishness, you become part of the problem. You don't get "all" the blame. But you get some of it.

And if you insist on throwing godwins law into the equation, you need a therapist or some medication.

Shadowstar38:
So here's what you people need to understand. When you stop watching CNN, leave your liberal echo chambers, and actually talk to human beings, you realize politics isn't this cut and dry good vs evil thing. People have a logical train of thought leading them to make the political choices they make. The train of thought is the thing you need to question. If properly challenged with facts and instead of emotion, then you have someone to support you. If you think they're evil from the onset and need to be shouted down, you accomplish nothing and Trump 2020 gets that much closer.

You might not have caused the country to be the way that it is. But if you have an opportunity to help fix it, and squander it with self righteous dickishness, you become part of the problem. You don't get "all" the blame. But you get some of it.

And if you insist on throwing godwins law into the equation, you need a therapist or some medication.

You could take some of your own advice when trying to convince others towards your way of thinking.

Shadowstar38:
So here's what you people need to understand. When you stop watching CNN, leave your liberal echo chambers, and actually talk to human beings, you realize politics isn't this cut and dry good vs evil thing. People have a logical train of thought leading them to make the political choices they make. The train of thought is the thing you need to question. If properly challenged with facts and instead of emotion, then you have someone to support you. If you think they're evil from the onset and need to be shouted down, you accomplish nothing and Trump 2020 gets that much closer.

You might not have caused the country to be the way that it is. But if you have an opportunity to help fix it, and squander it with self righteous dickishness, you become part of the problem. You don't get "all" the blame. But you get some of it.

And if you insist on throwing godwins law into the equation, you need a therapist or some medication.

I've been trying to suss out whether to respond. I don't know you, Shadowstar. I have no idea how I've never seen you around but you have 24812 posts. I guess it was that Wild West that people keep talking about.

I'm legitimately trying to understand. Are you trolling? If so and this is for the lulz, then have at it.

But if not, are you honestly not seeing how you're in one hand telling Left-leaning people not to blindly attack and write off all members of a group so easily... while being abrasive and grouping all left people as one?

People here have told you their experiences of conservatives and Right-winged people. You said not all right-wing people are the same. Rightfully so. Then you tell 'us people' to leave 'our echo chambers' and actually talk to people. You have no evidence that people haven't talked to others. You're assuming they aren't.

Like, I want to have a legitimate conversation with you, but everything in my Troll senses are blaring. I do not know whether I should be taking this seriously when you were getting on Saelune's case for being rude and creating an antagonistic environment with how she phrases things, but you seem not to hold yourself to the same responsibility.

ObsidianJones:

Shadowstar38:
So here's what you people need to understand. When you stop watching CNN, leave your liberal echo chambers, and actually talk to human beings, you realize politics isn't this cut and dry good vs evil thing. People have a logical train of thought leading them to make the political choices they make. The train of thought is the thing you need to question. If properly challenged with facts and instead of emotion, then you have someone to support you. If you think they're evil from the onset and need to be shouted down, you accomplish nothing and Trump 2020 gets that much closer.

You might not have caused the country to be the way that it is. But if you have an opportunity to help fix it, and squander it with self righteous dickishness, you become part of the problem. You don't get "all" the blame. But you get some of it.

And if you insist on throwing godwins law into the equation, you need a therapist or some medication.

I've been trying to suss out whether to respond. I don't know you, Shadowstar. I have no idea how I've never seen you around but you have 24812 posts. I guess it was that Wild West that people keep talking about.

I'm legitimately trying to understand. Are you trolling? If so and this is for the lulz, then have at it.

But if not, are you honestly not seeing how you're in one hand telling Left-leaning people not to blindly attack and write off all members of a group so easily... while being abrasive and grouping all left people as one?

People here have told you their experiences of conservatives and Right-winged people. You said not all right-wing people are the same. Rightfully so. Then you tell 'us people' to leave 'our echo chambers' and actually talk to people. You have no evidence that people haven't talked to others. You're assuming they aren't.

Like, I want to have a legitimate conversation with you, but everything in my Troll senses are blaring. I do not know whether I should be taking this seriously when you were getting on Saelune's case for being rude and creating an antagonistic environment with how she phrases things, but you seem not to hold yourself to the same responsibility.

"You people" as in the one's responding to me. Saelune. Undead. Breatfastman. Some other forth guy from the last page. Not the left as a whole. The people who decided to turn this from a general conversation about civility to wanting to educate me about the evils of the United States government as if I don't watch the news. Yeah. Trump and the Republicans do fucked up shit? What else is new? Didn't dispute it. Didn't defend it. Didn't say we shouldn't condemn it.

Holding the general populace to the same standards as the people who are in charge is ridiculous though. The American political system is absolutely fucked. Everybody knows this, but at the same time they want to act like the right answer at the voting booth is a clear cut choice and shame people for not towing the line. I have to assume they've never interacted with Conservative's in real life. Otherwise we'd be treating them like human beings and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And yes. I gave up on civil discourse around the time someone insinuated I didn't care about child rape. That's a really stupid thing to accuse someone of over a small disagreement.

Shadowstar38:
Holding the general populace to the same standards as the people who are in charge is ridiculous though. The American political system is absolutely fucked. Everybody knows this, but at the same time they want to act like the right answer at the voting booth is a clear cut choice and shame people for not towing the line. I have to assume they've never interacted with Conservative's in real life. Otherwise we'd be treating them like human beings and giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Every single time Trump does shit is an opportunity for all Republicans in congress to stand up against him and defend principles. That is especially true for everything where Trump needs approval from at least one of the houses, , where even "Yes, it is bad, but what can i do? He is president" doesn't count.

Every single time your representative does not stand up for his principles and supports Trump in his atrocities is a opportunity for a Republican voter to say "I won't vote for you again." or "This is not my party anymore."

I can give Republicans a benefit of doubt for voting Trump in in the fisrt place. Maybe they did believe him when he promised them the moon.

But if you continue to support a party/a politician despite all the shit it/he does, you are actively supporting that shit or considering it a small price to pay. That is how democracy is supposed to work.

So yes, i do hold the normal Republicans responsible for the deeds of their party. In the very same way NSDAP voters were responsible for what the Nazis did. Actually even more because once the Nazis were in power, their voters couldn't really say "I don't like that anymore, let's vote them out." (And because that is this thread : That does not mean that Republicans are Nazis or that what Trump America does is as bad as what Hitler Germany did, Only that the "population/voters share the blame"-aspect is the same.)

Satinavian:
That is how democracy is supposed to work.

So here's a thought. If the Democrats are the last bastion of hope here, force them to be less insane and actually earn the trust of more voters.

Shadowstar38:
So here's a thought. If the Democrats are the last bastion of hope here, force them to be less insane and actually earn the trust of more voters.

Easier said than done.
The Democratic establishment has no incentive to change, which leaves us voters with a choice of "The rapid erosion of our rights and increased corporate control" - AKA Republicans - or "Mostly the same thing but a lot slower" - AKA Democrats, then there's the Green Party, the "We only ever get a couple seats in lower state houses and have no chance at all of getting into real power". It's simple to say "Well just force them to change!" but that runs into two problems.
1) That's a rather long game to play, as the Establishment is quite comfy where it currently stands and We The People(TM) don't really have that much power. Sure, we can vote more and more progressive candidates into offices, but to reach a desirable result is going to take potentially decades to do.
2) The Establishment is actively trying to sabotage or undermine any potential change within the mainstream party - see the DNC's handling of Bernie in the 2016 primaries, and how the Establishment is largely keeping its distance from Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez while simultaneously "surprised" at just how "radical" a good chunk of leftism has become for ideas such as universal healthcare, universal education, livable wages or universal basic incomes, elimination of lobbying, and the reigning in, or outright destruction - at its most extreme - of capitalism.

The party has no incentive to change when our choices are so bleak, and they can continue to ride on the coat-tails of "Well at least we're not Republicans!" - except for Joe Manchin, fuck that guy. What are we going to do? Not vote for them? We may as well just ditch the entire system and let the Republicans stay in control at that point, Independents don't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

Ideally the Democratic party just needs to be replaced - but again, easier said than done. The United States as it currently stands is either going to go through forced radical change, which will cause many problems for the nation and likely the world, or just outright collapse. We are on an utterly unsustainable course with one of the leading parties plugging their ears and loudly shouting that there's nothing wrong, and the other one keeps going "Come on, guys, it's not that bad!"

We have elected some more progressive politicians in this year's primaries, but the point we're at now is simply a watch and wait phase to see if they'll hold up to their promises and see how the system responds to them. Will they be hamstrung by their colleagues? What's the opposition going to do? As things stand it's out of our hands until the next elections or the next big piece of legislation pops up.

Quite frankly, it's difficult to earn the trust of people who can be so easily led around to ignore facts.

Saelune:

JamesStone:
Ironically enough the way this thread is derailing unlike many other RP threads where people heavily disagree amongst each other is the best counterargument to your initial argument that there could be, even if you can't or purposely won't see it Saelune.

Elaborate.

Simple. One of the reasons why civility and uncivil behaviour needs to be used as a weapon is because I think you underestimate how low people can get. You discarding civility without thought or strategy will serve as a rallying cry to people's worst impulses and behaviours, and promote bad faith arguments from people who would normally find the environment unsuitable for their style of argument (Shadowsun38 being the particular example in question here).

There's a reason in most scenarios of thougtless, emotional-driven civil unrest the countries end with a dictatorship or some other form of authoritarian government. Rome with Caesar, USSR with Stalin, France with Napoleon, the Phillipines with Duderte, Brazil with Bolsonaro (or at least I believe that will be the case), etc.

Like I said, I don't think you're wrong in your opinions or emotions, Saelune. I think you're tactless and lack strategy. You want to promote MLK, Rosa Banks, Stonewall-type uncivility, but your methods and lack of discernition have historically more often than not resulted in Guillispiere-style uncivility which almost inevitably leads to totalitarianism.

Of course, you aren't single-handely doing this. But I oppose your style of uncivil argumentation because when applied to the political macrostate it's a self-defeating strategy that acts as a ticking time-bomb for societal breakdown and reorganization that tends to result in... well, the exact same things you're fighting.

If you allow a pop-culture allegory, it's like a real-life Batman Paradox; that affirmation that Batman's initially "thoughtless" methods of approaching crime-fighting allowed the craziest most dangerous criminals who were usually kept in check by the normal criminals to surface and make things worse for everyone than they were before. You may believe that civility is a tool of oppression that keeps you down. But you can also use it as a containment tool for the worst impulses in a society. And if you promote a political landscape where the concept of civility goes out the window, Donald Trump is just the beginning.

evilthecat:

Throwing out vague platitudes about how voting republican doesn't mean you support all republican policies doesn't absolve you of criticism, because if you're going to continue voting republican even knowing that other people are being mistreated as a result, then you've decided that those people don't matter, it's fine that they get thrown under the bus. You're not responsible because you were sat on the front seat of the bus performatively whispering "oh no, don't run those poor people over" in a very quiet, very civil voice.

I'm having a bit of a hard time with this hard line stance, not because I don't think Republican policies are awful (quite the opposite), but because the way the US political system is constructed makes any individual voter compromise to the extreme if they aren't the archtypical party member. I mean, you get a binary choice (with two fake choices in abstaining or voting for a third option) of either an economically conservative, pro-market party which is also radically socially conservative and staunchly anti-federal or you get a party in favor of more federal control, a more regulated market, a more socialized form of economy and which also supports social progressive agendas. This is one fucked up choice.

So what happens if you are an ardent proponent of state's rights, less federal involvement and a free market, but you also want same sex marriage, transgender rights and more immigration? You're fucked. No matter if you decide that state's rights are more important than same sex marriage or the other way around, you'll have to concede one of your beliefs if you want to cast a meaningful vote. This doesn't mean that the people who will always vote Republican, no matter what, can absolve themselves of criticism, but it means that we should probably show some leniency towards the swing voters. Those that want some of the Democrats offerings and some of the Republicans and tend to vote based on what they think is most important right now. They can absolutely be criticized for choosing money over people or whatever else their particular compromise was, but it is not their fault that the US political system has forced them into a choice that's so backwards that it borders on inane. And so we should at least be a bit cautious with calling everyone who voted Republican in 2016 a monster that's alright with children getting tear gassed, because a lot of them probably aren't. We could criticize them for valuing those children less then some other political agenda, but that's a whole other kind of criticism, isn't it?

Abomination:
It is identity politics when you associate anyone with the "right" in a terrible way and assume all the sins of that party are also something that individual agrees with or represents.

No, it isn't.

Identity politics could be simplified as demographic groups (race, culture, gender, etc.) representing themselves rather than acting as part of broader-based political allegiances. However, "right" and "left" wing are not demographic groups - although they are often part-composed of mixtures of various demographic groups which ally for common cause. That act of alliance, compromise and mutual support is pretty much the opposite of identity politics in action.

Shadowstar38:
Okay. So you align politically with everything Republican but find you can't stomach the criminal activity and bigotry.

Flippantly, I'd ask what else was there.

More seriously, the bigotry and illegal activities are a massive part of the public face the GOP promotes. They run, and win campaigns based on hating minorities, and infringing on people's rights. That's what the party stands for. It's who they are, and it wins them votes.

Now, if you support the GOP because of it's policies that aren't based on being needlessly malicious, such as...um...opposing the TPP, perhaps, you have to decide whether or not that's so important it's worth throwing various other groups under the bus. Almost certainly, though, that'd include whichever group this hypothetical voter was in anyway, so it's a weird question.

But it's not really a defence for that person to say they don't hate, say, Muslims, they aren't interested in them being oppressed, they just don't particularly care if they are.

Shadowstar38:
So here's a thought. If the Democrats are the last bastion of hope here, force them to be less insane and actually earn the trust of more voters.

Satinavian made a few other important points in that post, but in any case, you can trust the Democrats to be the better choice than the GOP for the vast majority of people in the US, including GOP supporters.

Shadowstar38:

And yes. I gave up on civil discourse around the time someone insinuated I didn't care about child rape. That's a really stupid thing to accuse someone of over a small disagreement.

I gave up on civil discourse when Trump became President with less votes, was popular even after tons of things that used to end a political career, created a phrase about outright rejecting reality, defended Nazis when they murdered a woman with a car, created literal internment camps that killed atleast one little girl, while letting actual legit Nazis and other white supremacists march in Montana and Virginia, shoot up a black church, shoot up a gay club, shoot up a synagogue, send bombs to tons of left-wingers, and STILL Trump gets away with being beyond uncivil while -I- am tone policed by so many.

So tell me, how is it that YOU are more justified in being uncivil while condemning me for it?

People have every right to be angry when their lives are being threatened and their everyday struggles are being ignored, dismissed and even justified through various meandering purposefully disingenuous bollocks. And I wish more people could feel comfortable in doing so without fear of being seen as being a negative representative of all peoples sharing traits which ignorant others like to use to diminish their value as individuals. It doesn't have to be that way, and the only reason it is is because there are plenty of those who prey off that fear and use it as a way to shame into silence, as numbing the tone often has the effect of removing the actual urgency of which the message is built upon. That isn't a bug, it's a feature. As long as everyone is civil, we can all march happily into the re-education camps with the self-satisfied belief that at least we were seen as "polite" and "respectful" of those that worked so hard to force us into there. As life gets incrementally worse to bolster the profits, power and willful ignorance of the already enshrined, at least we didn't hurt their feefees as they continued to do so!

And it doesn't even matter to them if you're Mother fucking Teresa on an MDMA high, there will always be something else to use against you, always another negative light to shine, another crazy they dragged up out from the middle of nowhere using pointed language out of frustration in a heavily edited debate to make you look worse by mere association. Or just straight up fabricate some bullshit entirely if all else fails.
But those are specifically the people who wallow their beliefs and arguments through bad faith, disguised as civility. Which are too many as it is, especially online, where there's always an alternative fact to turn to, another dishonest YouTuber looking to profit from further misinformation to subscribe to. Civility is often mistaken for reasonability. And incivil for unreasonable.

I'd much quicker trust a human speaking from emotion than speaking like they have a sort of sociapathic detachment to everything as if all of politics is merely a nice little fluffy game we can all play together instead of actual human lives hanging in the balance of decisions from people who hardly give a solitary fuck unless it earns them a few extra quid on their paycheque.
Anger can be easily misdirected, however. That is something to be acutely aware and observant of.

Shadowstar38:
So here's what you people need to understand. When you stop watching CNN, leave your liberal echo chambers, and actually talk to human beings, you realize politics isn't this cut and dry good vs evil thing. People have a logical train of thought leading them to make the political choices they make. The train of thought is the thing you need to question. If properly challenged with facts and instead of emotion, then you have someone to support you. If you think they're evil from the onset and need to be shouted down, you accomplish nothing and Trump 2020 gets that much closer.

Man, I didn't realize people are always completely logical and rational. That's cool.

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