Let us talk about 'Civility'

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JamesStone:

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Lack of civility is not what you do, Saelune. Lack of civility is what Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez did, lack of civility is what Bernie Sanders did, lack of civility was what Jonh Oliver does every week when he publicly embarrasses whomever the person/institution/organization he's talking about (my opinions on the Drumpf fiasco aside). You're just rude and insulting to those who disagree with you. From what I've seen in this forum, you let people like bastardofmelbourne, erttheking, ObsidianJones and many others argue for you while you auto-delegate the task of insulting whomever is arguing on a topic you disagree. What people like ert do is lack of civility. You're just a bully that happens to be on (what I think is) the right side of history.

Nah, they just translate my anger into more digestible chunks for those with weaker stomachs, and I am grateful for that.

I have no reason to be nice to people who think I don't deserve the right to exist. That is what people like you do not understand. That is what people like them do understand.

You and others want to overgeneralize White Supremacy, homophobia, sexism, etc as 'just a disagreement'. The shit I am so aggressive against is the kind of stuff that caused the Civil War and WW2.

Funny, since I'm also in the kill list of actual Nazis and Neonazis by virtue of my birth. As always, nice assumptions you got there Saelune.

I'm not generalizing homophobia, White Supremacy and sexism. I just understand there are ways to deal with the issue that cause the issue to be dealt with, and ways that cause the issue to spread. And on that note Saelune, you're one of the best allies the right wingers could have.

Anyone who can support evil cause I was aggressive to them was never a good person to begin with. A good person is a good person because they support good for the sake of it.

Anyone who is 'turned to the right' because of me is just looking for excuses and was likely always bigoted against something, probably LGBT people in my case.

But the kicker here is, I don't get the same courtesy. I don't get the excuse of 'they were mean to me' do I? I mean, I didn't start off hating Republicans or Christianity, they hated me and I picked up on it, not that it was any sort of hidden.

Clearly the bully is not to blame, because the victim fought back. How uncivil of them to fight back when violence is never the answer, despite no one doing anything to stop the bully before.

JamesStone:

Seanchaidh:

JamesStone:
Calling everyone right of center Nazi, no matter how hard you disagree with them, is no different than the right nutsos calling everything left of Reagan commie. Both are bad-faith arguments.

Depends on where you think the "center" is, really. If you think Tucker Carlson is anywhere near "moderate", then "right of center" = Nazi. And frankly, the bipartisan foreign policy of the United States is not typically regarded as, well, a moral black hole, but when you combine it with global capitalism it kind of... is.

I've said time and time again the American Left is the Center on other countries, and their Right goes from hard right to alt right. I don't think the Fox Brigade and the like are anywhere near the center, nor are they owned civility. However we must understand that they have sway over a vast portion of the population, and their topics must be engaged and destroyed with proper argumentation (and lack of civility), not just tossing insults over them. Otherwise you're just letting the wound fester.

They literally reject fact. You cant reason with people who LITERALLY REJECT FACT! Like, no exaggeration. These people created the fucking phrase 'Alternative Facts'!

CaitSeith:

JamesStone:

Calling everyone right of center Nazi, no matter how hard you disagree with them

Call me an SJW if you want, but that's not what usually happens. We can't have intelectual honesty if we don't discard that myth first.

That's not what happens in most discussions (in fact, usually it's the right throwing the nonsensical hyperbolic insults). I'm refering to Saelune in particular and her ilk with that sentence, and one look at the thread is enough to prove me right on this regard.

JamesStone:

CaitSeith:

JamesStone:

Calling everyone right of center Nazi, no matter how hard you disagree with them

Call me an SJW if you want, but that's not what usually happens. We can't have intelectual honesty if we don't discard that myth first.

That's not what happens in most discussions (in fact, usually it's the right throwing the nonsensical hyperbolic insults). I'm refering to Saelune in particular and her ilk with that sentence, and one look at the thread is enough to prove me right on this regard.

And who are 'my ilk'?

CaitSeith:
No matter how sweet the deal sounds like, white supremacy should be a deal breaker for anyone but white supremacists.

Hey, at least hear them out.

Best regards
Mr. Sea Lion

Really though, just saying that you care about your nation sets white supremacy (and thus Nazi) alarms ringing for some people. Even my mother did this when my grandfather (her father) complained about refugees not too long ago.

Saelune:

I have no reason to be nice to people who think I don't deserve the right to exist. That is what people like you do not understand. That is what people like them do understand.

I think the only one expressing that opinion to you is the devil on your shoulder, and for the rest you have actively searched for.

Seanchaidh:
Depends on where you think the "center" is, really. If you think Tucker Carlson is anywhere near "moderate", then "right of center" = Nazi. And frankly, the bipartisan foreign policy of the United States is not typically regarded as, well, a moral black hole, but when you combine it with global capitalism it kind of... is.

We had in this very forum already Nazi insults against people left of Clinton or even Merkel.

And that is just upsetting people. No one likes being called Nazis, leftwingers maybe even less.

Saelune:
Anyone who can support evil cause I was aggressive to them was never a good person to begin with. A good person is a good person because they support good for the sake of it.

Anyone who is 'turned to the right' because of me is just looking for excuses and was likely always bigoted against something, probably LGBT people in my case.

People don't 'turn to the right' because of you. People rarely change their political view because they are insulted on the internet.
Maybe you can convince some left leaning persons to not bother voting because now every option seems bad. But even that is a stretch.

But most of what you do is just annoying and insulting people most of whom are not actually Trump voters anyway.

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Seanchaidh:

Depends on where you think the "center" is, really. If you think Tucker Carlson is anywhere near "moderate", then "right of center" = Nazi. And frankly, the bipartisan foreign policy of the United States is not typically regarded as, well, a moral black hole, but when you combine it with global capitalism it kind of... is.

I've said time and time again the American Left is the Center on other countries, and their Right goes from hard right to alt right. I don't think the Fox Brigade and the like are anywhere near the center, nor are they owned civility. However we must understand that they have sway over a vast portion of the population, and their topics must be engaged and destroyed with proper argumentation (and lack of civility), not just tossing insults over them. Otherwise you're just letting the wound fester.

They literally reject fact. You cant reason with people who LITERALLY REJECT FACT! Like, no exaggeration. These people created the fucking phrase 'Alternative Facts'!

You don't engage with them to reason with them, because they aren't arguing in good faith. I explained this. That's what "being civil" would be. A proper lack of civility would be arguing with them with the express purpose of ignoring what they're actually saying and stripping down their arguemnts into what they actually mean. And that's not done for their benefit. It's done for the benefit of anyone listening or reading.

Your method is similar, only with none of the results since when you argue with a pencil pusher like Zontar who in most posts has no intention but to "troll liberals", you don't appear like the voice of reason. Most other posters that eviscerate his "arguments" appear like the voice of reason. You just look like a version of him that believes the opposite of what he believes. You give him the perfect scapegoat for him to rally behind.

You lack the tact required for lack of argumentative civility. You just overgeneralize and insult with no aim or accuracy towards the person, and let the argument sit and rot while you send barrage after barrage of ad hominens, stock insults we've heard time and time again, stereotypical ranting, Hitler comparisons and the like. Your words are stale Saelune, and you're too tactless to do anything in an argument than to vent and give more ammo to the opposition. Like I said before, you're the perfect ally to your argumentative opponents.

Saelune:

JamesStone:

CaitSeith:

Call me an SJW if you want, but that's not what usually happens. We can't have intelectual honesty if we don't discard that myth first.

That's not what happens in most discussions (in fact, usually it's the right throwing the nonsensical hyperbolic insults). I'm refering to Saelune in particular and her ilk with that sentence, and one look at the thread is enough to prove me right on this regard.

And who are 'my ilk'?

Nice ban-bait. My other posts already specified that in space: tactless arguers who use an argument/discussion to vent and throw shade at the opposition instead of actually trying to achieve something productive (and note for the inevitable misinterpretation, productive =/= compromise, it means in this context actually achieving even if partially your goals)

JamesStone:

Saelune:

JamesStone:

I've said time and time again the American Left is the Center on other countries, and their Right goes from hard right to alt right. I don't think the Fox Brigade and the like are anywhere near the center, nor are they owned civility. However we must understand that they have sway over a vast portion of the population, and their topics must be engaged and destroyed with proper argumentation (and lack of civility), not just tossing insults over them. Otherwise you're just letting the wound fester.

They literally reject fact. You cant reason with people who LITERALLY REJECT FACT! Like, no exaggeration. These people created the fucking phrase 'Alternative Facts'!

You don't engage with them to reason with them, because they aren't arguing in good faith. I explained this. That's what "being civil" would be. A proper lack of civility would be arguing with them with the express purpose of ignoring what they're actually saying and stripping down their arguemnts into what they actually mean. And that's not done for their benefit. It's done for the benefit of anyone listening or reading.

Your method is similar, only with none of the results since when you argue with a pencil pusher like Zontar who in most posts has no intention but to "troll liberals", you don't appear like the voice of reason. Most other posters that eviscerate his "arguments" appear like the voice of reason. You just look like a version of him that believes the opposite of what he believes. You give him the perfect scapegoat for him to rally behind.

You lack the tact required for lack of argumentative civility. You just overgeneralize and insult with no aim or accuracy towards the person, and let the argument sit and rot while you send barrage after barrage of ad hominens, stock insults we've heard time and time again, stereotypical ranting, Hitler comparisons and the like. Your words are stale Saelune, and you're too tactless to do anything in an argument than to vent and give more ammo to the opposition. Like I said before, you're the perfect ally to your argumentative opponents.

This false narrative of 'No one agrees with you Saelune' really doesn't work in a topic of people mostly agreeing with me.

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

All you are doing is proving me right. You are the one providing the ammo for me.

JamesStone:

Saelune:

JamesStone:

That's not what happens in most discussions (in fact, usually it's the right throwing the nonsensical hyperbolic insults). I'm refering to Saelune in particular and her ilk with that sentence, and one look at the thread is enough to prove me right on this regard.

And who are 'my ilk'?

Nice ban-bait. My other posts already specified that in space: tactless arguers who use an argument/discussion to vent and throw shade at the opposition instead of actually trying to achieve something productive (and note for the inevitable misinterpretation, productive =/= compromise, it means in this context actually achieving even if partially your goals)

I am just asking for clarification of something you said.

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Saelune:
They literally reject fact. You cant reason with people who LITERALLY REJECT FACT! Like, no exaggeration. These people created the fucking phrase 'Alternative Facts'!

You don't engage with them to reason with them, because they aren't arguing in good faith. I explained this. That's what "being civil" would be. A proper lack of civility would be arguing with them with the express purpose of ignoring what they're actually saying and stripping down their arguemnts into what they actually mean. And that's not done for their benefit. It's done for the benefit of anyone listening or reading.

Your method is similar, only with none of the results since when you argue with a pencil pusher like Zontar who in most posts has no intention but to "troll liberals", you don't appear like the voice of reason. Most other posters that eviscerate his "arguments" appear like the voice of reason. You just look like a version of him that believes the opposite of what he believes. You give him the perfect scapegoat for him to rally behind.

You lack the tact required for lack of argumentative civility. You just overgeneralize and insult with no aim or accuracy towards the person, and let the argument sit and rot while you send barrage after barrage of ad hominens, stock insults we've heard time and time again, stereotypical ranting, Hitler comparisons and the like. Your words are stale Saelune, and you're too tactless to do anything in an argument than to vent and give more ammo to the opposition. Like I said before, you're the perfect ally to your argumentative opponents.

This false narrative of 'No one agrees with you Saelune' really doesn't work in a topic of people mostly agreeing with me.

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

All you are doing is proving me right. You are the one providing the ammo for me.

Again, nice strawman. I've admitted at least 3 or 4 times in this discussion alone that I agree with your ideology. Thanks for proving me right about my last point: your words are stale, and you argue to vent. I also find a bit sad that your nihilism about your actions stops you from understanding that what I'm saying is that you don't have to play by the rules, and I heavily incentivize you to not play by the rules, but you're playing wrong and shooting yourself in the foot. You are, quite ironically, playing by their rules because you are helping them get what they want: a mudsling where facts don't matter because emotion overrules any attempt at debate. They know the facts are at our side, so they try to bait us to let the facts take second place, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker. Your anger and frustration dominates any political discussion you participate in.

The right, especially the alt-right, thanks you for your service, Saelune.

Saelune:
Hitler wasn't stopped by civility. The Confederates weren't stopped by civility. King George wasn't stopped by civility. Most equal rights movements were started by either being uncivil, or enduring straight up physical abuse by cops and bigots.

And yet, Martin Luther King and Ghandi, two people known for their civility and respectability, remain two of the foremost persons we think off when we think of progressives affecting change. That doesn't mean that Malcolm X or the militant Free India Movement wasn't needed, but they are not the only choice.

Besides, your entire reasoning here is disingenuous. Hitler and the Confederacy wanted war, so of course civility wouldn't stop them. The British Empire decided to increase troop presence in the American Colonies after the nascent American freedom movement had told him a massive fuck you (Boston Tea Party, anyone?). But these things are not the same as Donald Trump, the Republican Party, the Alt-Right or extremist Christians. They want radical political change, but that's still a far cry from all-out war.

What you need to understand is that for every Rosa Parks, Malcolm X or Emmeline Pankhurst, you need a bunch of people who doesn't resort to violence or civil disobedience. People who work the system from inside (like John Stuart Mill, one of the earliest parliament members to advocate women's suffrage), people who take the time to state and re-state the case for their position over and over, people who are ready to see eye to eye with the people they disagree with in order to start and perpetuate a dialogue. Ghandi was a provocateur of epic proportions, yet he was always ready to sit down and talk with the British after he advocated civil disobedience.

It is easy to let the anger take over and feel as if civility is for suckers, yet in the end a democracy is predicated on a large measure of civility from everyone involved. Just because you feel that your opponents are being raging assholes, does that mean you are alright with sacrificing democratic ideals just so you can gain some catharsis by being an asshole to people who disagree with you?

Saelune:

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

But playing this game is exactly what you do.

Look, the whole subforum is filled with threads started by bastardofmelbourne that highlight the incompetence of the trump administration and the corruption of the Republican party. Meticulously collected. Reminding people all the time of what rightwingers sooner would forget.
And not once has he opened himself to be demonized in this way. He also didn't actually insult any other posters and keeps a very civil tone all the time.
And his posts have impact and are actually convincing. Even rightwing posters hardly ever can dismantle his arguments. Because the civil nature the arguments are presented forces people do actually bring provable facts or seem utterly hollow in comparison.

But you, you are only providing a target with your insults. A distraction from those facts.

Saelune:

ex951753:

CaitSeith:

I'm really tired of that meme. Easiest way to not be a Nazi: don't support white supremasists (and preferable don't be one, not even ironically). No matter how sweet the deal sounds like, white supremacy should be a deal breaker for anyone but white supremacists.

If only that was the only definition. Yet people on this very forum have declared Milo, Ben Shapiro, Mark Meechan or anyone supporting ICE as goose-stepping Nazis.

Because they are.
image

Yeah know what, you're right. More than 50% of Americans are Nazis clearly every one above are cultivating another generation of Nazis and must be stopped by any means necessary. Talk is cheap, go do something about it.

JamesStone:

Saelune:

JamesStone:

You don't engage with them to reason with them, because they aren't arguing in good faith. I explained this. That's what "being civil" would be. A proper lack of civility would be arguing with them with the express purpose of ignoring what they're actually saying and stripping down their arguemnts into what they actually mean. And that's not done for their benefit. It's done for the benefit of anyone listening or reading.

Your method is similar, only with none of the results since when you argue with a pencil pusher like Zontar who in most posts has no intention but to "troll liberals", you don't appear like the voice of reason. Most other posters that eviscerate his "arguments" appear like the voice of reason. You just look like a version of him that believes the opposite of what he believes. You give him the perfect scapegoat for him to rally behind.

You lack the tact required for lack of argumentative civility. You just overgeneralize and insult with no aim or accuracy towards the person, and let the argument sit and rot while you send barrage after barrage of ad hominens, stock insults we've heard time and time again, stereotypical ranting, Hitler comparisons and the like. Your words are stale Saelune, and you're too tactless to do anything in an argument than to vent and give more ammo to the opposition. Like I said before, you're the perfect ally to your argumentative opponents.

This false narrative of 'No one agrees with you Saelune' really doesn't work in a topic of people mostly agreeing with me.

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

All you are doing is proving me right. You are the one providing the ammo for me.

Again, nice strawman. I've admitted at least 3 or 4 times in this discussion alone that I agree with your ideology. Thanks for proving me right about my last point: your words are stale, and you argue to vent. I also find a bit sad that your nihilism about your actions stops you from understanding that what I'm saying is that you don't have to play by the rules, and I heavily incentivize you to not play by the rules, but you're playing wrong and shooting yourself in the foot. You are, quite ironically, playing by their rules because you are helping them get what they want: a mudsling where facts don't matter because emotion overrules any attempt at debate. They know the facts are at our side, so they try to bait us to let the facts take second place, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker. Your anger and frustration dominates any political discussion you participate in.

The right, especially the alt-right, thanks you for your service, Saelune.

You sure like disagreeing with the side you claim to agree with.

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Saelune:
This false narrative of 'No one agrees with you Saelune' really doesn't work in a topic of people mostly agreeing with me.

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

All you are doing is proving me right. You are the one providing the ammo for me.

Again, nice strawman. I've admitted at least 3 or 4 times in this discussion alone that I agree with your ideology. Thanks for proving me right about my last point: your words are stale, and you argue to vent. I also find a bit sad that your nihilism about your actions stops you from understanding that what I'm saying is that you don't have to play by the rules, and I heavily incentivize you to not play by the rules, but you're playing wrong and shooting yourself in the foot. You are, quite ironically, playing by their rules because you are helping them get what they want: a mudsling where facts don't matter because emotion overrules any attempt at debate. They know the facts are at our side, so they try to bait us to let the facts take second place, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker. Your anger and frustration dominates any political discussion you participate in.

The right, especially the alt-right, thanks you for your service, Saelune.

You sure like disagreeing with the side you claim to agree with.

I agree with your ideology. I despise your methods, and believe those same methods bring harm to the ideology I believe in.

Gethsemani:

Saelune:
Hitler wasn't stopped by civility. The Confederates weren't stopped by civility. King George wasn't stopped by civility. Most equal rights movements were started by either being uncivil, or enduring straight up physical abuse by cops and bigots.

And yet, Martin Luther King and Ghandi, two people known for their civility and respectability, remain two of the foremost persons we think off when we think of progressives affecting change. That doesn't mean that Malcolm X or the militant Free India Movement wasn't needed, but they are not the only choice.

Besides, your entire reasoning here is disingenuous. Hitler and the Confederacy wanted war, so of course civility wouldn't stop them. The British Empire decided to increase troop presence in the American Colonies after the nascent American freedom movement had told him a massive fuck you (Boston Tea Party, anyone?). But these things are not the same as Donald Trump, the Republican Party, the Alt-Right or extremist Christians. They want radical political change, but that's still a far cry from all-out war.

What you need to understand is that for every Rosa Parks, Malcolm X or Emmeline Pankhurst, you need a bunch of people who doesn't resort to violence or civil disobedience. People who work the system from inside (like John Stuart Mill, one of the earliest parliament members to advocate women's suffrage), people who take the time to state and re-state the case for their position over and over, people who are ready to see eye to eye with the people they disagree with in order to start and perpetuate a dialogue. Ghandi was a provocateur of epic proportions, yet he was always ready to sit down and talk with the British after he advocated civil disobedience.

It is easy to let the anger take over and feel as if civility is for suckers, yet in the end a democracy is predicated on a large measure of civility from everyone involved. Just because you feel that your opponents are being raging assholes, does that mean you are alright with sacrificing democratic ideals just so you can gain some catharsis by being an asshole to people who disagree with you?

Look what civility got MLK. And he owed a lot to Malcom X. I do honestly wonder how successful he would have been without X.

Trump doesnt want war solely cause he wants to skip to the part where we build gold statues of him and parade missiles in his name. The right are after blood, pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

The system has been purged of too many though. The Right rules most of the government. It is beyond saving, though 2020 is the last chance to prove me wrong. I dont actually want to always be right ya know.

Even you boiling down literal Nazis to 'people who disagree with you' is a problem.

Satinavian:

Saelune:

Nothing I do will convince the right that they are wrong. Literally nothing. Anything I do will be used as evidence they are correct, no matter what. It is a bullshit game that I am unwilling to play, and because I am unwilling to play a game where the rules are arbitrarily decided by my opponents, I am demonized for it.

But playing this game is exactly what you do.

Look, the whole subforum is filled with threads started by bastardofmelbourne that highlight the incompetence of the trump administration and the corruption of the Republican party. Meticulously collected. Reminding people all the time of what rightwingers sooner would forget.
And not once has he opened himself to be demonized in this way. He also didn't actually insult any other posters and keeps a very civil tone all the time.
And his posts have impact and are actually convincing. Even rightwing posters hardly ever can dismantle his arguments. Because the civil nature the arguments are presented forces people do actually bring provable facts or seem utterly hollow in comparison.

But you, you are only providing a target with your insults. A distraction from those facts.

Melbourne tries too hard to find the good in people with no good in them. I have told him this myself, but after a point it is just denial.

And Melbourne has a pretty consistent record of agreeing with me.

ex951753:

Saelune:

ex951753:

If only that was the only definition. Yet people on this very forum have declared Milo, Ben Shapiro, Mark Meechan or anyone supporting ICE as goose-stepping Nazis.

Because they are.
image

Yeah know what, you're right. More than 50% of Americans are Nazis clearly every one above are cultivating another generation of Nazis and must be stopped by any means necessary. Talk is cheap, go do something about it.

That's quite the jump. I didn't know 3 people one of which isn't even American make up 50% of America.

By the way, the US has a population of 308,745,538. 62,984,828 voted for Trump.

JamesStone:

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Again, nice strawman. I've admitted at least 3 or 4 times in this discussion alone that I agree with your ideology. Thanks for proving me right about my last point: your words are stale, and you argue to vent. I also find a bit sad that your nihilism about your actions stops you from understanding that what I'm saying is that you don't have to play by the rules, and I heavily incentivize you to not play by the rules, but you're playing wrong and shooting yourself in the foot. You are, quite ironically, playing by their rules because you are helping them get what they want: a mudsling where facts don't matter because emotion overrules any attempt at debate. They know the facts are at our side, so they try to bait us to let the facts take second place, and you fell for it hook, line and sinker. Your anger and frustration dominates any political discussion you participate in.

The right, especially the alt-right, thanks you for your service, Saelune.

You sure like disagreeing with the side you claim to agree with.

I agree with your ideology. I despise your methods, and believe those same methods bring harm to the ideology I believe in.

As I stated in my OP, Civility is a tool of oppression. If you really honestly agree with my 'ideology' as you claim, then I hope you can come to realize that you let yourself be shackled down and eventually learn to throw them off you.

Saelune:
And Melbourne has a pretty consistent record of agreeing with me.

That is why i mentioned him.

Only he is helping your side and you are harming it.

Saelune:
Hitler wasn't stopped by civility. The Confederates weren't stopped by civility. King George wasn't stopped by civility. Most equal rights movements were started by either being uncivil, or enduring straight up physical abuse by cops and bigots.

Civility doesn't win anything but submission to tyrants.

They weren't stopped by insults either. They were stopped by the actions of rational and reasonable people who realized reason was no longer an option.

Your position of equating everyone who believes any degree differently than you do to the likes of Hitler then shouting them down with blind anger/hatred and broad insults is a sign of unreasonable irrationality; I'd offer it is itself ironically Hitler-esque. And I'm NOT calling you Hitler, to be clear, just highlighting the hypocrisy of the "all or none" mentality, that behaving the way you perceive "them" behaving makes you just as wrong, only from the other side of the issues. If you eschew rationality in lieu of passionate display before engaging every person who thinks differently from yourself, you've got all the credence and merit of mad person walking down the street whilst brandishing a butcher's knife and espousing the need for healthcare reform; yeah, the issue is important, but everyone's more concerned about what you're gonna do with that butcher's knife...

Saelune:
And there are no good people on the side of White Supremacists. Not a single one.

Side A: Kill all black people!

Side B: Kill no black people!

Side C: Now now, lets be civil here, lets kill SOME black people!

Side B: Uh...no. That is racist.

Side A: See how uncivil and unwilling to compromise they are!

This this an unfair and broad generalization; the story of Daryl Davis (link fixed in my original post) is proof of that. Mind you, this is coming from a half black/half Hispanic man, so I'm no stranger to the sensitive issues of minority relations, least of all have I any affection for the Klan, but I do believe people are inherently good and can be the product of their upbringing for better or for worse. Racism isn't genetic; it's TAUGHT, and what's taught in error/bad faith can be unlearned, but NOT by way of the expression of similarly toxic rancor and offensive passion of those who supposedly know better. I don't agree with the Klan or support their beliefs by any stretch of anyone's imagination (and I KNOW for a fact I couldn't have done what Davis has done,) but I DO believe it's possible that a child raised in siloed ignorance knowing nothing else is not entirely at fault for what they "know" and believe. Is that speaking for ALL white supremacist? Fuck no; adults who know better make shitty life choices all the time, but that doesn't entitle me to treat them all with overt hostility by default. When you give up on the possibility of redemption, when you ignore the possibility that misinformation and misunderstanding can be real factors in a person's life in lieu of hostility and personal attacks... you're a textbook extremist.

Xprimentyl:

Your position of equating everyone who believes any degree differently than you do to the likes of Hitler then shouting them down with blind anger/hatred and broad insults is a sign of unreasonable irrationality;.

This is untrue and I am really just sick and tired of this BS right-wing propaganda. It is upsetting how many non-right-wingers fall for this, cause it is patently not true.

Saelune:

Silentpony:

Seanchaidh:
People like Betsy DeVos don't deserve to have nice, uninterrupted dinners in fancy restaurants.

Neither? And it's beyond disingenuous to suggest so? Maybe the Nazi positions are the ones that attack a person's right to exist? Maybe policy changes that have gratuitous and measurable body counts are different from a typical decision about when to repair a road?

My point is that Saelune has made it clear multiple times that disagreeing with her or having a different position is a vote for Trump, therefore Nazi.
So logically whatever position she takes, the opposite HAS to be the Nazi point of view. No subtlety, no in-between, no room for disagreement, just black vs white. One or Nazi.

You're believing the twisted BS of right-wingers here, Pony.

I disagree with all Nazis. So if someone is a Nazi, then I inherently disagree with them. You're getting the cause and effect in the wrong order.

I don't think Dr.Thrax, Seanchaidh, you, or erttheking are Nazis, and we all definitely disagree on some big things.

Xprimentyl:
you're a textbook extremist.

I am an extremist cause white supremacy is the new normal.

Being a good person is an extremist thing to be.

Martin Luthur King Jr was an extremist. George Washington was an extremist. Lincoln was an extremist.

Saelune:
This is untrue and I am really just sick and tired of this BS right-wing propaganda. It is upsetting how many non-right-wingers fall for this, cause it is patently not true.

Do you actually believe that of yourself ?

You are awfully quick to assume people are rightwingers or Trump-voters or even supporters of Nazis without enough evidence. That is why several people here call you out on that. Not because there exists any rightwing-propaganga about you that all those people fall for.

Saelune:

Even you boiling down literal Nazis to 'people who disagree with you' is a problem.

See Nazis are some of the people that disagree with me, but they are far from the only people that do. And that right there is your problem: You are too outraged at the current state of politics to make distinctions between all the people that disagree with you, instead lumping them all together as "Nazis". It makes you no better than Trump calling all immigrants "illegals" or all arabs "terrorists". It makes you no better then the actual Nazis who considered all Jews Untermensch. When people accuse you of being totalitarian, this is what they mean. In your eagerness to promote "the right" politics and stop "the wrong" politics, you end up losing all nuance and condemning everyone you perceive as disagreeing with you equally harshly. I find it distasteful when Trump or the Alt-right does it, and I don't find it being any better when you do it because we share the same political ideals.

Do I need to remind you that Hitler managed to rise to power on a platform that largely dealt with anti-communism. Something he could do because the communists in Germany where anything but civil in their political actions? Discarding civility comes at a price, especially when both sides do it. As long as one side keeps itself respectable, it is hard to escalate the conflict.

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Saelune:
You sure like disagreeing with the side you claim to agree with.

I agree with your ideology. I despise your methods, and believe those same methods bring harm to the ideology I believe in.

As I stated in my OP, Civility is a tool of oppression. If you really honestly agree with my 'ideology' as you claim, then I hope you can come to realize that you let yourself be shackled down and eventually learn to throw them off you.

Saelune:

ex951753:

Saelune:
Because they are.
image

Yeah know what, you're right. More than 50% of Americans are Nazis clearly every one above are cultivating another generation of Nazis and must be stopped by any means necessary. Talk is cheap, go do something about it.

That's quite the jump. I didn't know 3 people one of which isn't even American make up 50% of America.

By the way, the US has a population of 308,745,538. 62,984,828 voted for Trump.

Since there are more of the "alt-right" speakers than the ones mentioned above and all of their followers are clearly Nazis and not all of them voted Trump, more than 20% of Americans are NAZIS!!!! What are you still doing here?! More than 1 in 5 people out there needs to be punched. Stop wasting time on an internet forum and go do something about it!

Satinavian:

Saelune:
This is untrue and I am really just sick and tired of this BS right-wing propaganda. It is upsetting how many non-right-wingers fall for this, cause it is patently not true.

Do you actually believe that of yourself ?

You are awfully quick to assume people are rightwingers or Trump-voters or even supporters of Nazis without enough evidence. That is why several people here call you out on that. Not because there exists any rightwing-propaganga about you that all those people fall for.

Except this is literally that propaganda. Most of the people who make this claim against me are the blatant right-wingers. Then you have people do stuff like this:

Saelune:

ex951753:

Saelune:
Because they are.
image

Yeah know what, you're right. More than 50% of Americans are Nazis clearly every one above are cultivating another generation of Nazis and must be stopped by any means necessary. Talk is cheap, go do something about it.

That's quite the jump. I didn't know 3 people one of which isn't even American make up 50% of America.

By the way, the US has a population of 308,745,538. 62,984,828 voted for Trump.

I call out 3 specific people and suddenly I am claimed to be calling 50% of all of America Nazis, except I am not. This is the BS I deal with constantly.

Gethsemani:

Saelune:

Even you boiling down literal Nazis to 'people who disagree with you' is a problem.

See Nazis are some of the people that disagree with me, but they are far from the only people that do. And that right there is your problem: You are too outraged at the current state of politics to make distinctions between all the people that disagree with you, instead lumping them all together as "Nazis". It makes you no better than Trump calling all immigrants "illegals" or all arabs "terrorists". It makes you no better then the actual Nazis who considered all Jews Untermensch. When people accuse you of being totalitarian, this is what they mean. In your eagerness to promote "the right" politics and stop "the wrong" politics, you end up losing all nuance and condemning everyone you perceive as disagreeing with you equally harshly. I find it distasteful when Trump or the Alt-right does it, and I don't find it being any better when you do it because we share the same political ideals.

Do I need to remind you that Hitler managed to rise to power on a platform that largely dealt with anti-communism. Something he could do because the communists in Germany where anything but civil in their political actions? Discarding civility comes at a price, especially when both sides do it. As long as one side keeps itself respectable, it is hard to escalate the conflict.

You are what you vote for.

So what do you think we should do? Give Trump Poland?

Why aren't you out there punching Nazis?

Gethsemani:

Saelune:

Even you boiling down literal Nazis to 'people who disagree with you' is a problem.

See Nazis are some of the people that disagree with me, but they are far from the only people that do. And that right there is your problem: You are too outraged at the current state of politics to make distinctions between all the people that disagree with you, instead lumping them all together as "Nazis". It makes you no better than Trump calling all immigrants "illegals" or all arabs "terrorists". It makes you no better then the actual Nazis who considered all Jews Untermensch. When people accuse you of being totalitarian, this is what they mean. In your eagerness to promote "the right" politics and stop "the wrong" politics, you end up losing all nuance and condemning everyone you perceive as disagreeing with you equally harshly. I find it distasteful when Trump or the Alt-right does it, and I don't find it being any better when you do it because we share the same political ideals.

Do I need to remind you that Hitler managed to rise to power on a platform that largely dealt with anti-communism. Something he could do because the communists in Germany where anything but civil in their political actions? Discarding civility comes at a price, especially when both sides do it. As long as one side keeps itself respectable, it is hard to escalate the conflict.

You're right, but talk is cheap. Go do something about it.

Saelune:
You are what you vote for.

So that would make you a 70-year-old woman married to a former president?

So what do you think we should do? Give Trump Poland?

Spraw, aby Polska-Litwa ponownie!

Saelune:

JamesStone:

Saelune:
You sure like disagreeing with the side you claim to agree with.

I agree with your ideology. I despise your methods, and believe those same methods bring harm to the ideology I believe in.

As I stated in my OP, Civility is a tool of oppression. If you really honestly agree with my 'ideology' as you claim, then I hope you can come to realize that you let yourself be shackled down and eventually learn to throw them off you.

Again, good job ignoring every point. Civility is indeed a tool of oppression when used incorrectly, and lack of civility is some times the only option. But it's not black and white and must be done with tact. Tact you lack. And because of that lack of tact, you play right into the enemy's hands.

Said it before, will say it again. The alt-right thanks you for your service, Saelune.

Silentpony:

You and I may disagree on if a .01% sales tax increase here in Missouri should go to fund the new Zoo breeding center, or to repair roads down interstate 70. Which one is the NAZI position?

Well, the Nazi position is obviously to repair the roads. How else will the SA march down them? Remember, the second stanza of Horst-Wessel-Lied contains two lines talking about clearing the streets. And never forget Hitler's construction of the Autobahn.

As for the new Zoo breeding center: Obviously a Nazi position due to their view of eugenics.

Xprimentyl:
When you give up on the possibility of redemption, when you ignore the possibility that misinformation and misunderstanding can be real factors in a person's life in lieu of hostility and personal attacks... you're a textbook extremist.

Even in this case redemption is still a possibility as long as once this Klansman learned the error of his ways he would start opposing white supremacy and racism as vehemently as Saelune does. Also although Davis did the right thing he should've sent the people he couldn't change to Christmas Island without a return ticket. Anything else and it's not enough and you don't really care.

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