Let us talk about 'Civility'

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Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Then why do you so vehemently defend the right? Even looking back on your past posts you very clearly defend the right and oppose 'left-wing SJW's'. Why?

If someone's doing something stupid, I'm opposed to it regardless of the source of stupidity. If someone has a valid point, the point stands as valid regardless of the source. That's not "defending" a side. That's called being reasonable. It just so happens that this site leans left so I need to take time to get people to actually evaluate themselves.

CaitSeith:

And if the clarification reveals lack of good intentions? What to do when they want to discuss again? Keep assuming good intentions despite any evidence of the contrary?

No. Then you call it out as bullshit.

So, there is this thing called power. Not everyone has it, and even people who do have it don't have equal amounts of it. Yes, black people can be racist against white people, and that is bad, but until a racist black person is President of the US and inciting blacks to oppress white people across the country, it is not the same as a white President inciting racism against non-whites.

The left-wing users of the Escapist do not control the US government. Bigoted Republicans (redundant) do.

Being reasonable is realizing the imbalance of power and representation and taking in the context of the situation. Being reasonable is realizing there is a difference between an uncivil citizen of the US and an uncivil President of the US.

Also when I call bullshit out as bullshit, people call me uncivil.

Saelune:

Also when I call bullshit out as bullshit, people call me uncivil.

No. When you call bullshit you do stuff like this

Bigoted Republicans (redundant)

Which is counterproductive.

What you have to realize is people viewing right-wing media are getting one side of the story. That story involves racist blacks, self proclaimed communists, and irrational feminists getting people banned from colleges and shutting down free speech. Now if you stand up and admit those people are trash and don't stand for you, conservatives might be willing to do the same and actively fight to get their party to change things.

Shadowstar38:
Now if you stand up and admit those people are trash and don't stand for you, conservatives might be willing to do the same and actively fight to get their party to change things.

Obama proved that is not true.

And ya know what, you're doing it too, where you put ALL the blame on the victims.

How about this, how about Republicans who arent bigots do it first. How about they prove to ME that the bigots are trash and do not stand for them? Because literally every time the vast majority of them dont. When Trump ran on white supremacy and toxic bigotry, Republicans did not make a stand and say "No, you do not represent us". When Trump attacks migrants and throws children in cages to literally die, Republicans did not say he does not represent them. When a pedophile almost became a senator, Republicans did not say the pedo did not represent them, nor did they do it when the rapist Brett Kavanaugh was under scrutiny.

You do not give both sides equal treatment. If you did, you would despise the right, because they never do what you demand of the left. That is not fair.

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8 pages

Saelune:

And ya know what, you're doing it too, where you put ALL the blame on the victims.

Did I say I was blaming the victims? No. Did I defend racism and sexual assault? No. So you're not making a point here. Just like you jumped to the conclusion that I had the mythical "privilege". Stop jumping to conclusions.

Leave the moral high horse at home. Do you want a functional country or not?

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

And ya know what, you're doing it too, where you put ALL the blame on the victims.

Did I say I was blaming the victims? No. Did I defend racism and sexual assault? No. So you're not making a point here. Just like you jumped to the conclusion that I had the mythical "privilege". Stop jumping to conclusions.

Leave the moral high horse at home. Do you want a functional country or not?

You did not say you were blaming the victims, but that is what you were doing. What you aren't doing is giving me an actual rebuttal to my point that you are intentionally ignoring.

You want the left to reach out to the right, when we did during the entirety of Obama's administration, and the right slapped Obama's hand and spent that time being as difficult as they possibly could. And now you demand we continue to reach out to them when they are ruining everything for everyone? That is unfair.

And you want us to prove we are not in league with the worst of the left, while not expecting the right to do the same. Again, that is not fair. Know what Democrats do when a Dem has a sex scandal? Drop em. Know what Republicans do? Endorse the ever living fuck out of them. Trump, Moore, Kavanaugh. We even dropped Al Franken, because we do not want sex offenders to represent us.

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Shadowstar38:
image

Prove to me I am wrong by leading by example. This isn't that.

Saelune:

You want the left to reach out to the right, when we did during the entirety of Obama's administration, and the right slapped Obama's hand and spent that time being as difficult as they possibly could. And now you demand we continue to reach out to them when they are ruining everything for everyone? That is unfair.

This assumes ALL the same people who support republicans now hated Obama before. It couldn't possibly be left wing identity politics leading people to abandon the party. The same identity politics that think check your privilege is a coherent response.

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Prove to me I am wrong by leading by example. This isn't that.

If you think hypocrisy is okay, that shouldn't have gotten a reaction from you.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

You want the left to reach out to the right, when we did during the entirety of Obama's administration, and the right slapped Obama's hand and spent that time being as difficult as they possibly could. And now you demand we continue to reach out to them when they are ruining everything for everyone? That is unfair.

This assumes ALL the same people who support republicans now hated Obama before. It couldn't possibly be left wing identity politics leading people to abandon the party. The same identity politics that think check your privilege is a coherent response.

Trump's first year could be called 'I am going to get rid of everything Obama has done'.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Prove to me I am wrong by leading by example. This isn't that.

If you think hypocrisy is okay, that shouldn't have gotten a reaction from you.

So you agree that I think hypocrisy is bad?

Saelune:
Trump's first year could be called 'I am going to get rid of everything Obama has done'.

There's those perfect listening skills again...not even the point.

Saelune:
So you agree that I think hypocrisy is bad?

I agree you lack any sense of personal responsibility.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Trump's first year could be called 'I am going to get rid of everything Obama has done'.

There's those perfect listening skills again...not even the point.

Saelune:
So you agree that I think hypocrisy is bad?

I agree you lack any sense of personal responsibility.

Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

Probably cause I didnt vote for Trump. You want me to feel guilty for standing up for myself. I wont.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
So you agree that I think hypocrisy is bad?

I agree you lack any sense of personal responsibility.

image

Saelune:
Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

Probably cause I didnt vote for Trump. You want me to feel guilty for standing up for myself. I wont.

You've strawmaned my point repeatedly. The point is, being divisive isn't helpful. Regardless of political stance. People as individuals shouldn't be divisive. If it's already there, maybe don't add to it.

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
So you agree that I think hypocrisy is bad?

I agree you lack any sense of personal responsibility.

image

Person 1:Posts satire
Person 2:Posts satire
Person 1: Lead by example hypocrite!

lol what?

Seriously though, Her point was that whoever makes the first move, the second party is vindicated. This theory played out in real time and the argument defeated itself.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

Probably cause I didnt vote for Trump. You want me to feel guilty for standing up for myself. I wont.

You've strawmaned my point repeatedly. The point is, being divisive isn't helpful. Regardless of political stance. People as individuals shouldn't be divisive. If it's already there, maybe don't add to it.

Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

If you really think this, then start directing your fire at the right, not the left. The right made the division, not me. I just am tired of being told to fix it when its not my fault and when it is hurting me more anyways.

Shadowstar38:

CaitSeith:

Shadowstar38:

I agree you lack any sense of personal responsibility.

image

Person 1:Posts satire
Person 2:Posts satire
Person 1: Lead by example hypocrite!

lol what?

Seriously though, Her point was that whoever makes the first move, the second party is vindicated. This theory played out in real time and the argument defeated itself.

My point there was if you think I should be civil and work hard to reach out t my opponent and understand them, then you should prove it is better than my way by doing it yourself. You are not following YOUR OWN ADVICE.

Its like someone saying violence is ALWAYS wrong, and beating up anyone who disagrees.

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

Probably cause I didnt vote for Trump. You want me to feel guilty for standing up for myself. I wont.

You've strawmaned my point repeatedly. The point is, being divisive isn't helpful. Regardless of political stance. People as individuals shouldn't be divisive. If it's already there, maybe don't add to it.

Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

If you really think this, then start directing your fire at the right, not the left. The right made the division, not me. I just am tired of being told to fix it when its not my fault and when it is hurting me more anyways.

This assumes I can't multitask. Also assumes political groups are hiveminds.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:

Shadowstar38:

You've strawmaned my point repeatedly. The point is, being divisive isn't helpful. Regardless of political stance. People as individuals shouldn't be divisive. If it's already there, maybe don't add to it.

Your point just keeps coming back to blaming the left for everything the right does wrong.

If you really think this, then start directing your fire at the right, not the left. The right made the division, not me. I just am tired of being told to fix it when its not my fault and when it is hurting me more anyways.

This assumes I can't multitask. Also assumes political groups are hiveminds.

No, it observes that you unfairly criticize the left.

It is not unfair to think that groups that exist to unify people who think the same are made up of people who think the same. Anyone part of a political group that is so different in view than you that you cannot reconcile your views with it, should not be part of them. Thus, anyone who is willing to call themselves a Republican in the US in 2018 is stating they are:

Pro-White Supremacy, pro-rape, pro-pedophelia, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-blacks, anti-women, pro-hatespeech, anti-freespeech, pro-fasicm, anti-gun control, pro-racist cops, and a ton more.

And any Republican who think they are not those things, then why are you a Republican? You can change parties ya know. I would not be a Democrat if their views were so alien from my own. And they have some flaws, but those flaws are not so insufferable to me that I am unwilling to support them alongside the views they have that I do support.

Saelune:
No, it observes that you unfairly criticize the left.

When did I accuse them of something they didn't do.

Pro-White Supremacy, pro-rape, pro-pedophelia, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-blacks, anti-women, pro-hatespeech, anti-freespeech, pro-fasicm, anti-gun control, pro-racist cops, and a ton more.

Baseless non-sense.

I would not be a Democrat if their views were so alien from my own

So you're telling me I don't have to support the Democrats because they're anti-free speech, anti-science, and anti freedom? So people who became Republicans are justified?

AWESOME! Good to know we agree on something! That's my entire point!

Saelune:
Check your privilege.

Been a while since I've seen that phrase. And it's still funny.

Saelune:
Thus, anyone who is willing to call themselves a Republican in the US in 2018 is stating they are:

Pro-White Supremacy, pro-rape, pro-pedophelia, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-blacks, anti-women, pro-hatespeech, anti-freespeech, pro-fasicm, anti-gun control, pro-racist cops, and a ton more.

I mean, at most you could say that I'm pro hate speech remaining legal. And I'm very anti-gun control, and don't see it as a negative. I rebuke the rest of your claims about what it means to call ones self a republican with derisive laughter and derision. This view of politics is a strict binary with little to no basis in fact.

Shadowstar38:
So you're telling me I don't have to support the Democrats because they're anti-free speech, anti-science, and anti freedom? So people who became Republicans are justified?

I didn't become a republican, baby. I was born this way.

CM156:

I didn't become a republican, baby. I was born this way.

That gave my a mental image of an infant being pushed out a womb clutching an M-16. You did this to me. You're a monster.

Shadowstar38:

CM156:

I didn't become a republican, baby. I was born this way.

That gave my a mental image of an infant being pushed out a womb clutching an M-16. You did this to me. You're a monster.

We would never give an infant a M-16. We would start them with a .22 rifle until they learned marksmanship and then move them up.

CM156:

Shadowstar38:

CM156:

I didn't become a republican, baby. I was born this way.

That gave my a mental image of an infant being pushed out a womb clutching an M-16. You did this to me. You're a monster.

We would never give an infant a M-16. We would start them with a .22 rifle until they learned marksmanship and then move them up.

I know this is a joke, and you're probably going to agree with me on this point. But I needed to add this: MARKSMANSHIP HAVE NEVER BEEN THE PROBLEM. Not understanding that you NEED to take personal responbility for yourself, and even more so when own or using a gun, is the problem.

Shadowstar38:

Pro-White Supremacy, pro-rape, pro-pedophelia, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-blacks, anti-women, pro-hatespeech, anti-freespeech, pro-fasicm, anti-gun control, pro-racist cops, and a ton more.

Baseless non-sense.

You may have noticed that the GOP runs campaigns on such things, (and puts some effort on delivering on their promises) because they know they'll get their supporters to vote for them if they do. You might possibly glean an insight about GOP voters from that.

trunkage:
ot understanding that you NEED to take personal responbility for yourself, and even more so when own or using a gun, is the problem.

I do take personal responsibility for myself. That is why I own firearms.

Thaluikhain:

You may have noticed that the GOP runs campaigns on such things, (and puts some effort on delivering on their promises) because they know they'll get their supporters to vote for them if they do. You might possibly glean an insight about GOP voters from that.

Notice how they didn't bother to mention economics. Foreign policy. Illegal-immigration. They're not making some nuanced argument against the actual values and policies, they're attempting to frame the entire group as a whole in particular light. People who want better boarder security don't want children getting tear gassed as just one example. People try to conflate the 2. Saelune is buying way to hard into the us verse them mentality of the 2 party system.

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:

You may have noticed that the GOP runs campaigns on such things, (and puts some effort on delivering on their promises) because they know they'll get their supporters to vote for them if they do. You might possibly glean an insight about GOP voters from that.

Notice how they didn't bother to mention economics. Foreign policy. Illegal-immigration. They're not making some nuanced argument against the actual values and policies, they're attempting to frame the entire group as a whole in particular light. People who want better boarder security don't want children getting tear gassed as just one example. People try to conflate the 2. Saelune is buying way to hard into the us verse them mentality of the 2 party system.

I mean, were talking about a government who, with one hand complains that immigrants aren't coming here legally, and with the other is systematically closing off every avenue for legal immigration.

If you want to have legal immigration, fix the legal way to immigrate.

But that's too much for the gop, they'd rather have their cake and eat it too

If people are describing conservatives as blanket loons, it's because they're blanket supporting loony policies. I'm sorry reality is just that shitty.

Shadowstar38:
People who want better boarder security don't want children getting tear gassed as just one example. People try to conflate the 2.

Such as the GOP and it's supporters.

In any case, the GOP is obviously, deliberately Islamophobic, for example. They stir up popular support using hatred of Muslims. It's a big party of their party. No matter what other policies they have, that alone says something about them, and about their supporters.

Shadowstar38:

Saelune:
No, it observes that you unfairly criticize the left.

When did I accuse them of something they didn't do.

Pro-White Supremacy, pro-rape, pro-pedophelia, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant, anti-LGBT, anti-blacks, anti-women, pro-hatespeech, anti-freespeech, pro-fasicm, anti-gun control, pro-racist cops, and a ton more.

Baseless non-sense.

Steve Bannon, Trump, Roy Moore, Trump, Trump, Pence, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump...

I would not be a Democrat if their views were so alien from my own

So you're telling me I don't have to support the Democrats because they're anti-free speech, anti-science, and anti freedom? So people who became Republicans are justified?

AWESOME! Good to know we agree on something! That's my entire point!

So you admit you're just a flat out right-winger.

Also anti-science? Oh Please. Enjoy destroying the environment cause Trump doesn't understand how weather works.

Shadowstar38:

Thaluikhain:

You may have noticed that the GOP runs campaigns on such things, (and puts some effort on delivering on their promises) because they know they'll get their supporters to vote for them if they do. You might possibly glean an insight about GOP voters from that.

Notice how they didn't bother to mention economics. Foreign policy. Illegal-immigration. They're not making some nuanced argument against the actual values and policies, they're attempting to frame the entire group as a whole in particular light. People who want better boarder security don't want children getting tear gassed as just one example. People try to conflate the 2. Saelune is buying way to hard into the us verse them mentality of the 2 party system.

Ok. Trump is super duper destroying the economy. Ruining trade with China and the EU and screwing over oh hey, all the people who support Trump! But that's the fun part. I have no sympathy for coal miners.

Trump's wife is an illegal immigrant.

Seriously, you mention these three as if they support you, they don't. Infact they are even more objectively proof of how bad Trump is.

Shadowstar38:

So you're telling me I don't have to support the Democrats because they're anti-free speech, anti-science, and anti freedom? So people who became Republicans are justified?

Let's ignore the free speach/hate speach and gun freedom discussions for a moment, but where are Democrats anti-science ?

Of the two parties there only one seems to be one ignoring scientific results regarding climate change, cutting science budgets for universities for "small gouvernment", allowing creationism nonsense into schools etc. There is a reason the "March for Science" exists since the last election and that is certainly not because the American scientific community has a problem with the Democrats.

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