US Government Shutdown

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Merry Christmas, US federal employees! Just what you needed to enjoy the festive season.

For those not aware of the details, the Senate has refused to fund a border wall, and Trump won't pass the budget, so the government can't pay for a load of its work. This is not a particularly big shutdown - only a modest proportion of the US bureaucracy is currently on indefinite leave.

Apparently there were frantic negotiations to prevent it, and when it became evident Trump wouldn't get the votes, he looked like he would accept a temporary extension. However, various conservative talk show hosts like Rush Limbaugh started complaining about the idea of Trump conceding, and so naturally he bowed to these rabid morons who broadcast to his base.

...

Don't you have on of these every other year?

I'm with Ann Coulter on this one. Trump is making excuses. It is absurd to think he needs anything more than his position as Commander in Chief of the US military to make the wall happen. But he isn't. He's on his way to being a one term President.

No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

The good news is I'm old and may be dead before it all comes down.

http://www.anncoulter.com/

This and the Brexit fail so far are terribly demotivating. Why vote when a ruling elite do what they want anyway, regardless?

Gorfias:
And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

No. That is not a thing that is going to happen just because you again have a PotUS who was like someone before Trump.

Thaluikhain:

Gorfias:
And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

No. That is not a thing that is going to happen just because you again have a PotUS who was like someone before Trump.

Really? You don't think he brought us ever closer to this doom? Think about how far this has gone. From, 1986, be compassionate and pass an amnesty for a few hundred thousand here illegally and then we'll get really serious about border protection, to tens of millions here illegally, impacting our politics so that politicians are emboldened enough to say, "you want our laws enforced? For me to do my job?!?!? YOU ARE A RACIST!!!!"

I hope I don't derail this thread but this is really about even more than the wall.

It's about the very act of self governance. Is it working? I support and have supported so many positions held by a majority of voters... and continually do not get what I want.

Very distressing.

Gorfias:
what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

How would you even know the difference?

Gorfias:
to tens of millions here illegally

Tens of millions of people (well, low teens of millions) in the US illegally, hundreds of millions of people in the US legally. About 3% of the total of people in the US.

Gorfias:
impacting our politics so that politicians are emboldened enough to say, "you want our laws enforced? For me to do my job?!?!? YOU ARE A RACIST!!!!"

A lot of laws do happen to be racist, or enforced in racist ways, illegal immigration is hardly the only thing at play there.

Gorfias:
It's about the very act of self governance. Is it working? I support and have supported so many positions held by a majority of voters... and continually do not get what I want.

Oh that. That's another issue, and I agree with you there, but then that's democracy, and it's been like that for generations, if not from the beginning.

The US is under threat of authoritarianism, sure. But the danger is not coming from people sympathetic to illegal immigrants.

PsychedelicDiamond:

Gorfias:
what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

How would you even know the difference?

You have a point. Back in the 1980s, most Americans were pro death penalty for capital crimes. Instead, our government was giving 1st degree torture murderers un-escorted vacations out of prison. The oddest thing is that Bush made an issue of it against Dukakis but would have (did?) the same sort of thing.

So, open borders isn't the only thing causing this (our government doing the opposite of what the people want). Reviewing... https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1988/06/24/most-states-allow-furloughs-from-prison/ad22836e-111b-4f09-aa6d-6651d2e9a04e/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c357c14aafdb

So we can all point to this when we're trying to explain toxic masculinity in future, right? How a guy is so desperate to puff himself up to look "strong" that he just breaks everything and looks like an insecure jackass

I find it confusing Trump is willing to go this far for his stupid wall. It was always merely a meme or a con to trick suckers into voting for him. Now Trump won his election and his voters are zealously loyal enough to forgive him anything so why does he need the wall? Just let it be another lie on the big pile of lies and watch his voters not care and millions of dollars suddenly being able to be spend more productively than funding a meme.

Donald Trump shut down the government. Anyone who says different is wrong.

Gorfias:

And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

Open borders presidents aren't a thing, please do not go around making claims that have no firm legs to stand on and have no sources.

You're tilting at windmills.

Palindromemordnilap:
So we can all point to this when we're trying to explain toxic masculinity in future, right? How a guy is so desperate to puff himself up to look "strong" that he just breaks everything and looks like an insecure jackass

You're welcome to try. In my experience, people hear those two words and instantly put their fingers in their ears.

GOP control the senate, GOP control the congress (for now), GOP control the supreme court but apparently no one is in control of the presidency.

Gorfias:

And then we'll have an open borders President again and what had been the USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

Funnily enough, "authoritarian" is precisely how I feel about Trump. He has the attitude of an authoritarian, acts like an authoritarian, loves foreign authoritarians. Consider merely the chaos of his cabinet: staffed by people he demands personal loyalty from, decisions made on personal whim against organisational advice (with resultant resignations). What are all those stupid rallies he wastes time on, vapidly playing to a minority chunk of the public for cheers instead of governing. He is the model of a dictator - but a wannabe dictator frustrated by operating in a democratic system, and unable to effectively use that democratic system in his favour.

After that, of course, many of his core supporters are suspected to be people with authoritarian inclinations, e.g. https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/750. It's hardly unusual for people who feel the nation slipping into encroaching chaos to turn to the idea of a strong leader who will get things done by goddman kicking ass and kicking opponents and foreigners where they need to be kicked, who'll do things like, for instance, rig the courts in their favour.

I do agree that the USA potentially has a significant problem enacting the will of the people, and I'd accept things like the failure to find answers immigration counts towards that. See for instance: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

There's no need to couch the terms entirely in terms of right wing talking points, however. In many respects, the sorts of people backing Bernie Sanders are coming from the same place as you - a deep feeling that the USA is not run for them and being persistently let down by the elites stitching everything up for themselves. The problem being that Bernie supporters and a lot of Trump supporters tend to have very different ideas about a new America. Bernie supporters are looking at a more egalitarian USA. The aforementioned right wing authoritarian Trump supporters are looking a white, Christian hegemony. Add to that are a large number of people generally discontent.

Gorfias:

USA will be turned into a lawless, tribalized, balkanized authoritarian third world hell on Earth.

Its been like that for awhile now.

Gorfias:
No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

You really think that a fuckin' wall is a good idea? You're an actual human being, a homo sapiens and that is your actual thought pattern?

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a steamboat.

There's no need to get into the rest of your post. It's a collection of mindless, most incoherent and stupid ideas that a person could possibly come up with.

Saelune:
Donald Trump shut down the government. Anyone who says different is wrong.

Of course Trump did it. He bragged about wanting to do it and the Republicans still hold all the power so it's not like anyone other than a complete and utter moron could think otherwise.

It's funny how republicans keep thinking this will work in their favor. It never does. They always do the petulant child act and shut down when things don't go their way and it always bites them in the short term and never wins them points long term.

Adam Jensen:

Gorfias:
No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

You really think that a fuckin' wall is a good idea? You're an actual human being, a homo sapiens and that is your actual thought pattern?

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a steamboat.

There's no need to get into the rest of your post. It's a collection of mindless, most incoherent and stupid ideas that a person could possibly come up with.

So, no wall, which is what Trump ran on, and you think I should vote for him again? Not going to happen.

Agema:

I do agree that the USA potentially has a significant problem enacting the will of the people, and I'd accept things like the failure to find answers immigration counts towards that. See for instance: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

Thanks, reviewing this document.

And I did vote Bernie in the primary. I could easily live with Medicare for all. Take that topic off the list and then see if USA could get to a place where it starts functioning again. Sure seems broken at this time.

EDIT: *sobs*

"When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites
or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover,
because of the strong status quo bias built into the
U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of
Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it."

Gorfias:
So, no wall, which is what Trump ran on, and you think I should vote for him again? Not going to happen.

No, I think that it's literally retarded to vote for someone because they promised to build a [best case scenario] useless wall. Congratulations on your advanced thinking.

The fact that you did just that, and you're still bragging about it in late 2018 like it's a normal thing that normal person would say, would be hilarious if it wasn't so goddamn fuckin' tragic. You and people like you are the reason why the rest of the world is laughing at Americans.

Adam Jensen:

No, I think that it's literally retarded to vote for someone because they promised to build a [best case scenario] useless wall. Congratulations on your advanced thinking.

The wall might be useless. But at least it is a symbol of trying to do something. For people who have spent decades being ignored, or betrayed by those polticians who offered false promises, it means someone has finally listened to them.

Adam Jensen:

Gorfias:
So, no wall, which is what Trump ran on, and you think I should vote for him again? Not going to happen.

No, I think that it's literally retarded to vote for someone because they promised to build a [best case scenario] useless wall. Congratulations on your advanced thinking.

The fact that you did just that, and you're still bragging about it in late 2018 like it's a normal thing that normal person would say, would be hilarious if it wasn't so goddamn fuckin' tragic. You and people like you are the reason why the rest of the world is laughing at Americans.

Since 1986 at least, Americans have been asked to show compassion for hundreds of thousands of people who entered the USA illegally and then we would really get serious about border security. That number since then has gone up as much as 50 fold. So much for "getting serious". Now, the Libertarian side of me is actually for open borders. But that is in a Libertarian society. The US is not. To paraphrase Milton Friedman, an open border welfare state is suicide. I don't want to commit suicide. Sorry you find that tragic, but I will not walk into a gas chamber for you.

Agema:

The wall might be useless. But at least it is a symbol of trying to do something. For people who have spent decades being ignored, or betrayed by those polticians who offered false promises, it means someone has finally listened to them.

Great, if depressing pdf you linked, thank you. I am becoming somewhat resigned to things being as they are. I keep thinking about this movie with Alec Baldwin and Nicole Kidman where, I think Ann Bancroft yells at a betrayed husband that if you can't change a thing, get your head into the game. Got to figure out more about how to make what is, and is not going to change, work for me.

Gorfias:
To paraphrase Milton Friedman, an open border welfare state is suicide. I don't want to commit suicide. Sorry you find that tragic, but I will not walk into a gas chamber for you.

Nobody is asking you to. Well, nobody here at least, you'd find various people waving swastika banners who'd be calling for that, but they overwhelmingly aren't opponents of the wall.

Immigrants aren't a threat to the US, excepting that the usual suspects are able to use them to obscure the real threats.

Even assuming they were, the wall is not a remotely useful approach to stopping them.

Gorfias:
Since 1986 at least, Americans have been asked to show compassion for hundreds of thousands of people who entered the USA illegally and then we would really get serious about border security. That number since then has gone up as much as 50 fold. So much for "getting serious". Now, the Libertarian side of me is actually for open borders. But that is in a Libertarian society. The US is not. To paraphrase Milton Friedman, an open border welfare state is suicide. I don't want to commit suicide. Sorry you find that tragic, but I will not walk into a gas chamber for you.

I am sorry, but the problem is not an immigration problem. It has always been a domestic distribution of wealth problem and an inefficient taxation problem.

If the minimum wage was actually a livable wage, if companies were genuinely held to account for attempting to pay people under the table, and if there were universal workers rights, people would do the jobs that only Hispanic migrants seem willing to do.

The Wall is a bandaid on a festering wound. It hides the problem and convinces the ignorant that the issue is being treated.

Abomination:

Gorfias:
Since 1986 at least, Americans have been asked to show compassion for hundreds of thousands of people who entered the USA illegally and then we would really get serious about border security. That number since then has gone up as much as 50 fold. So much for "getting serious". Now, the Libertarian side of me is actually for open borders. But that is in a Libertarian society. The US is not. To paraphrase Milton Friedman, an open border welfare state is suicide. I don't want to commit suicide. Sorry you find that tragic, but I will not walk into a gas chamber for you.

I am sorry, but the problem is not an immigration problem. It has always been a domestic distribution of wealth problem and an inefficient taxation problem.

If the minimum wage was actually a livable wage, if companies were genuinely held to account for attempting to pay people under the table, and if there were universal workers rights, people would do the jobs that only Hispanic migrants seem willing to do.

The Wall is a bandaid on a festering wound. It hides the problem and convinces the ignorant that the issue is being treated.

Sort of. The problem to me is at least partially the other way around. We have HUGE problems in the USA. Relatively open borders mask over existing problems in the US: increasing income disparity driven in part by immigration. Failure to have a society in which the young marry, have kids and build a future for the USA. Etc.

Immigration, at this time, IS the bandaid.

As I've written above: maybe there's nothing to be done. Figure out how to make out on this. I guess. I got kids. I'd kind of like to have a functioning society with a future instead.

Gorfias:
increasing income disparity driven in part by immigration.

The problem is that a small group of people decide the structure of our economy, what gets produced, how much, and for whom, not that people are here to do productive work. Think about that: we have a system which, if you refuse to question or override its core principles (if you refuse to challenge the capitalists), makes a problem of abundant labor. And it is a problem even for the capitalists themselves. That is insane. We can and should do better.

No, that doesn't mean closing our borders. It means working on the project of socialist internationalism. Especially if we do it here, and by non-violent means with a real respect for democracy (which is to say building dual power and eventually engaging in general strikes; the capitalist reaction will almost inevitably involve violence; be prepared for that) we can avoid many of the pitfalls that beset early socialist experiments; Stalin's turn toward authoritarianism (which may have been close to the best of many bad options in its historical context given the necessity of building a militarized economy backed by brutally rapid industrialization just to not be conquered by capitalists or fascists); the lack of resources and wealth of colonized peoples (and their plundered countries) that embraced socialism; and the meddling of the various agencies and organizations of the United States and other capitalist countries (countless coups, foreign-backed insurgencies, invasions, and so on).

We're the head of the beast. We can destroy the problem at its source. We have by far the biggest military and the wealthiest economy; we don't have to worry about a brutal and costly rapid industrialization because we're already past that stage and we're already the biggest kid on the block. The challenge is not so much in what happens once we are socialist (though obviously there will be challenges just as in any society), it is in getting there, because right now that military serves the capitalists and will likely be used against even non-violent anti-capitalism. Not to mention the other problems; a media controlled by capital and two political parties controlled by capital. If we can focus on overcoming these rather than WASTING ENERGY on FRIVOLOUS BULLSHIT like a MONUMENT TO RACISM, then history is ours for the taking.

Gorfias:
Sort of. The problem to me is at least partially the other way around. We have HUGE problems in the USA. Relatively open borders mask over existing problems in the US: increasing income disparity driven in part by immigration. Failure to have a society in which the young marry, have kids and build a future for the USA. Etc.

Immigration, at this time, IS the bandaid.

As I've written above: maybe there's nothing to be done. Figure out how to make out on this. I guess. I got kids. I'd kind of like to have a functioning society with a future instead.

Someone has to sweep the streets, clean the gutters, and maintain the roads.

Income disparity is not driven by immigration, immigration is driven by income disparity. Mexicans move to the US because there is work available for one who is willing to work for next to nothing because it's "legal" for companies to offer work at next to nothing.

And if you think that if there were no more immigrants that the companies would be "forced" to start paying people a proper wage to get them into work, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

Soviet-Communism is all businesses run by the government. American-Capitalism is a government being run by businesses. It's like a quasi Holy Roman Empire, where the electors are the businesses that donated the most to the election campaigns. Or to quote New Vegas "The game was rigged from the start".

This wall is both a white elephant and a red herring, used to hide the true issue of the American political system: that the people are NOT being represented at all, or their interests are not being looked out for. A convenient scapegoat has been fabricated, economic refugees from Mexico and other South American nations. "No, it's not us, the people who swim in Scrooge McDuck towers of money, and can bring the economy to its knees through reckless speculation. It's those filthy Mexicans who will work for $5.00 an hour that you need to be afraid of! They don't pay taxes! (Not that we do) They force wages down! (Not that we don't) And they want to rape your daughters! (We just want to rape your wallet)"

Adam Jensen:

Gorfias:
No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

You really think that a fuckin' wall is a good idea? You're an actual human being, a homo sapiens and that is your actual thought pattern?

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a steamboat.

It works pretty well in Israel. You could even point towards Berlin as a pretty good example. Historically, there's been a pretty good precedent set for walls.

Generally speaking, Walls work pretty well, despite cartoons of bugs bunny digging under them.

The Lunatic:

Adam Jensen:

Gorfias:
No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

You really think that a fuckin' wall is a good idea? You're an actual human being, a homo sapiens and that is your actual thought pattern?

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a steamboat.

It works pretty well in Israel. You could even point towards Berlin as a pretty good example. Historically, there's been a pretty good precedent set for walls.

Generally speaking, Walls work pretty well, despite cartoons of bugs bunny digging under them.

Those walls aren't ocean to ocean

The Lunatic:

Adam Jensen:

Gorfias:
No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

You really think that a fuckin' wall is a good idea? You're an actual human being, a homo sapiens and that is your actual thought pattern?

Jesus fuckin' Christ on a steamboat.

It works pretty well in Israel. You could even point towards Berlin as a pretty good example. Historically, there's been a pretty good precedent set for walls.

Generally speaking, Walls work pretty well, despite cartoons of bugs bunny digging under them.

Most historical walls tended to be a lot thicker, shorter length, better staffed, and didn't have an active drug trade across them.

erttheking:
Those walls aren?t ocean to ocean

Nor is Trump's.

skywolfblue:
Most historical walls tended to be a lot thicker, shorter length, better staffed, and didn't have an active drug trade across them.

Certainly. But, we've seen that in Europe, even relatively simple walls do quite well at stopping illegal migration.

Hungary for example, constructed a simple chain-link fence across their border, which is patrolled by horseback and light vehicles.

Illegal crossing dropped form 99,497 to 315 the following year.

The Lunatic:

erttheking:
Those walls aren?t ocean to ocean

Nor is Trump's.

skywolfblue:
Most historical walls tended to be a lot thicker, shorter length, better staffed, and didn't have an active drug trade across them.

Certainly. But, we've seen that in Europe, even relatively simple walls do quite well at stopping illegal migration.

Hungary for example, constructed a simple chain-link fence across their border, which is patrolled by horseback and light vehicles.

Illegal crossing dropped form 99,497 to 315 the following year.

I think you may want to look at the US/Mexico border. If it's not ocean to ocean, it would defeat the purpose.

Gorfias:
I'
m with Ann Coulter on this one. Trump is making excuses. It is absurd to think he needs anything more than his position as Commander in Chief of the US military to make the wall happen. But he isn't. He's on his way to being a one term President.

No wall, and I won't vote for him again.

The fact the "no wall" is apparently the only thing that could lose your vote says a hell of a lot about you considering what a shitty, shitty president(and just overal garbage fire as a human being) he's been so far, but whatever.

Trumps had 2 fucking years with the GOP sucking his dick and no opposition to speak of to make this fucking wall happen. The fact he decides now is the time to throw a temper tantrum and crash the government just speaks to how fucking petty and unsuitable for the job he is.

Hell, I'm still waiting to hear just why Trump and the "Build the Wall" crowd can't open up their wallets and donate some money to what apparently is the most important thing ever. I'm sure between him, his MASSIVE FORTUNE, and the 36% of Americans who apparently believe in this garbage, the money could be raised easily to at least get it going.

Agema:

Adam Jensen:

No, I think that it's literally retarded to vote for someone because they promised to build a [best case scenario] useless wall. Congratulations on your advanced thinking.

The wall might be useless. But at least it is a symbol of trying to do something. For people who have spent decades being ignored, or betrayed by those polticians who offered false promises, it means someone has finally listened to them.

Well, Pretends to listen to them. I've yet to see what Trump has done for the poor or the working class.

Unless he means the white people afraid that brown people are taking their jobs and their guns and their religion, in which case, he actually is listening to them and stoking their fears.

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